Silynn wrote:

The change doesn't remove slider leniency. Slider leniency is a property of the slider end, not the slider start.

I've always called the ability to hit sliders really late/early slider leniency too. Probably should've clarified.

I'll just use this reply to try explaining a bit better using pictures because my English sucks.

This is how the path of the 1/4 jump I linked might look like:
compared to one of the biggest 1/4 jump in the most intense kiai that passes on to circle:
Here's a 1/4 jump with sliders right afterwards for more comparisons:

I think it's pretty clear Skystar increased those spacing in this map only because sliders were lenient. He wouldn't have placed them that far if sliders were as strict as circles. The only reason these large jumps for sliders were allowed to pass was because the receiving end was lenient enough to allow easy 300s on that jump.

And rrtyui, who would've gotten same score on Big Black scorev2, would've also gotten 12 100s instead of 3 on Dopamine, and WWW would've gotten 48 100s + 2 50s instead of 29 100s + 0 50s (There might be some counting errors but it should be around those numbers). Dopamine is a map way more reliant on the leniency due to its complex rhythm and unpredictable spacings. There's no way maps like Dopamine will play the same way on scorev2.

C00L wrote:

Why force a change on something if its not broken?

HR being equal to HD is way too broken.
DT being lower than HRHD is broken.
Sliders having way too bad pp value is broken. (and it'd still be bad since acc is not even the main issue)
I don't know about the ONE MILLION """"HIGH"""" score but imo it has something to do with spinners currently being too weak and players are already satisfied with getting around 300 rpm or even at least finishing the spinner with zero bonus.

CptBlackBird wrote:

tbh after thinking about the score wipe, it might be pretty goddamn fun right after the wipe because everyone will be trying to get ranks as fast as possible so they can enjoy being 1 digit for few minutes xd

Because having to replay maps I've already played is fun. Because all my progress meaning nothing is fun. If he score wipes, I'll just stop playing. Hell, I might stop playing once score v2 is forced and the slider changes take effect. A shit ton of good games are coming out this year or are already out that I can devote my time and money to if Peppy decides to force the slider changes.

We'll see what happens in the coming month or so though I suppose.

Putting this at the top of the post because the amount of straw-man or people that say 'this doesn't really affect me' is sickening. https://ask.fm/AzerFrost/answers/136789314978 I get that Azer is a yes-man when it comes to this sort of shit but don't claim that "this change motivates players to actually learn rhythm and improve their accuracy instead of just complaining that they're gonna lose potential pp from new maps or just straight up quit the game". People that already don't care about accuracy are going to be the same as ever. People that do care about accuracy aren't going around intentionally hitting sliders in the 100 hit window and hitting circles perfectly. There are a ton of other people straw-manning but I figure it helps to put a community figure on blast because it harms legitimate discussion. There are going to be droves of people just parroting what they see because they're too lazy to actually think about how certain changes affect the game or alternative solutions. To the people that post 'this doesn't affect me', it's simple - just don't post. This thread obviously isn't for you if you don't care enough.

Slider accuracy doesn't have the explicit implication of Score V2 (on a side note peppy's claim that 95% of OWC participants were in support of it is a complete fabrication unless he means slider accuracy only - I can definitely see 95% of participants agreeing that slider accuracy should be implemented in SOME way). Let's just look at the possibilities and see how it goes. One thing to mention is that there is no scenario where mapping remains unaffected. Just because you can still technically map in the exact same way it does not mean people will end up doing so. Look at PP v2, the mapping meta has completely changed in direct relation to the update. Modifying one of two possible hitobjects, not counting spinners, is a similarly large change (although I predict it would not have quite the same effect on mapping).

Scenario: Score V2 in its entirety
Possible Outcome: Score wipe
Result: Unity but at an unjustifiable price. Loss of slider utilities. Score is consistent.

Scenario: Score V2 in its entirety
Possible Outcome: New maps have Score V2
Result: Difference in old and new is ugly - causes problems with score rank, level etc. Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play differently.

Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: New maps have slider accuracy
Result: Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play differently. Score is consistent.

Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: Mod regarding slider accuracy
Result: Integrity of old scoreboards is gone. Open to abuse. Why would a user turn it off? Old maps *can* be played the same. Slider utility is maintained. Score is consistent.

Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: Editor related change (either a second slider-like hitobject or slider OD setting).
Result: Slider utility is maintained. Old maps play the same. Integrity of scoreboards is maintained. Precedent exists (AR + OD split or decimal values) for changing editor in a way which only affects new maps. Score is consistent. Mapping evolves with more options (most likely for the better). edit: Two of those aren't seamless though. A new hitobject requires thinking about how to differentiate it from current sliders and needs to effectively indicate that to the player although this is binary. Same thing with a checkbox option in the settings - binary. Slider OD being a slider in the song setup > difficulty tab is the last and best option of the three.

It's not that a score wipe or a new mod are bad things. Just that Score V2 or slider accuracy are not big enough changes to justify it. Should be obvious that I'm in favour for slider OD (something like a slider from current behaviour to hit circle behaviour).

a score wipe would simply be ruinous, no matter what.

JappyBabes wrote:

SPOILER

Putting this at the top of the post but the amount of straw-man or people that say 'this doesn't really affect me' is sickening. https://ask.fm/AzerFrost/answers/136789314978 I get that Azer is a yes-man when it comes to this sort of shit but don't claim that "this change motivates players to actually learn rhythm and improve their accuracy instead of just complaining that they're gonna lose potential pp from new maps or just straight up quit the game". People that already don't care about accuracy are going to be the same as ever. People that do care about accuracy aren't going around intentionally hitting sliders in the 100 hit window and hitting circles perfectly. There are a ton of other people straw-manning but I figure it helps to put a community figure on blast because it harms legitimate discussion. There are going to be droves of people just parroting what they see because they're too lazy to actually think about how certain changes affect the game or alternative solutions. To the people that post 'this doesn't affect me', it's simple - just don't post. This thread obviously isn't for you if you don't care enough.

Slider accuracy doesn't have the explicit implication of Score V2 (on a side note peppy's claim that 95% of OWC participants were in support of it is a complete fabrication unless he means slider accuracy only - I can definitely see 95% of participants agreeing that slider accuracy should be implemented in SOME way). Let's just look at the possibilities and see how it goes. One thing to mention is that there is no scenario where mapping remains unaffected. Just because you can still technically map in the exact same way it does not mean people will end up doing so. Look at PP v2, the mapping meta has completely changed in direct relation to the update. Modifying one of two possible hitobjects, not counting spinners, is a similarly large change (although I predict it would not have quite the same effect on mapping).

Scenario: Score V2 in its entirety
Possible Outcome: Score wipe
Result: Unity but at an unjustifiable price. Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play the same.

Scenario: Score V2 in its entirety
Possible Outcome: New maps have Score V2
Result: Difference in old and new is ugly - causes problems with score rank, level etc. Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play differently.

Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: New maps have slider accuracy
Result: Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play differently. Score is consistent.

Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: Mod regarding slider accuracy
Result: Integrity of old scoreboards is gone. Open to abuse. Why would a user turn it off? Old maps *can* be played the same. Slider utility is maintained. Score is consistent.

Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: Editor related change (either a second slider-like hitobject or slider OD setting).
Result: Slider utility is maintained. Old maps play the same. Integrity of scoreboards is maintained. Precedent exists (AR + OD split or decimal values) for changing editor in a way which only affects new maps. Score is consistent. Mapping evolves with more options (most likely for the better).

It's not that a score wipe or a new mod are bad things. Just that Score V2 or slider accuracy are not big enough changes to justify it. Should be obvious that I'm in favour for slider OD (something like a slider from current behaviour to hit circle behaviour).

I agree with this. None of the changes seem reasonable except for a possible slider OD change. And yeah, I disagree with a lot of things Azer says. Having a high rank and Twitch sub count doesn't necessarily make his opinions any more accurate.

It'd be nice if there was actually some dialogue, but peppy just seems to want to steam ahead with these changes and everyone who has a problem be damned. Changes in a game should happen naturally when most people want them, not forced by the dev team while ignoring the complaints of half the community.

Could I have the source where peppy said 95% of tourney players were in agreement with score v2?

B1rd wrote:

It'd be nice if there was actually some dialogue, but peppy just seems to want to steam ahead with these changes and everyone who has a problem be damned. Changes in a game should happen naturally when most people want them, not forced by the dev team while ignoring the complaints of half the community.

Could I have the source where peppy said 95% of tourney players were in agreement with score v2?

https://twitter.com/ppy/status/704944348501250048 Side note but feel free to ask other people that played or look at the mp links for owc matches, the change from v1 to v2 did not have a meaningful impact nor fulfill the purpose of valuing accuracy to the level it claimed to. Of all the matches I saw, the outcome would have been the same had it been v1 although since I did not watch every match I'm not stupid enough to claim it had zero impact. I personally see no reason why a score-cap needs to be implemented (following other rhythm games is not a logical argument) but even if v2 were to be implemented it needs so much more revision which I haven't seen a mention of but hey I don't read every tweet peppy makes. Maybe he has said something about it.

All of this right after he denounced the ranking criteria changes (council + spread rule) and said that nothing will happen without discussion. So many tweets giving the impression that he is not looking to engage in discussion when it's his idea.

He later apologized for it btw. https://twitter.com/ppy/status/704960260264427520

It's probably important to know that as well.

-[Koinuri] wrote:

I think it's pretty clear Skystar increased those spacing in this map only because sliders were lenient. He wouldn't have placed them that far if sliders were as strict as circles. The only reason these large jumps for sliders were allowed to pass was because the receiving end was lenient enough to allow easy 300s on that jump.

And rrtyui, who would've gotten same score on Big Black scorev2, would've also gotten 12 100s instead of 3 on Dopamine, and WWW would've gotten 48 100s + 2 50s instead of 29 100s + 0 50s (There might be some counting errors but it should be around those numbers). Dopamine is a map way more reliant on the leniency due to its complex rhythm and unpredictable spacings. There's no way maps like Dopamine will play the same way on scorev2.

I don't really think skystar thinks too much in terms of "oh I can make this jump really big because it's a slider." Like, hell, most people still accuracy that correctly if it's just one of those slider jumps. When comes to dubsteppy music, then it's the section as a whole that makes rhythm hard, not those jumps in particular, as the difficulty is not the jumps but getting the right rhythm. Secondly, when I map stuff, I literally do not care about oh it's a slider so I can make large spacing. I make spacing because it flows well and fits well imo. Playability comes into play for mapping when outrageously large or outlandish spacing is used.

Of course maps like Dopamine might not be played the same, for the most part those sliders are placed on audible and emphasized beats. Any mapper who knows how to map should put notes on those beats such that this slider accuracy change would not really matter much. It's just pushing, as other have said, osu into a more accuracy driven game, while still maintaining all, if not most, of the aim game. Combo is still important, but it's just adding an extra layer of accuracy. In terms of flow and fun, all of these maps will still be great imo, but it just takes a little more effort on the player's side to get better accuracy, and hopefully pp may one day reflect the difficulty of these types of maps and reward us better for it.

Some questions about new sliders

1. What happens if you get a 50/100 on the slider-head but also miss the slider-end? Do you get a 25? A miss?

2. Wouldn't giving sliders accuracy/pp make this game a bit *too* accuracy-oriented? I keep hearing people say that accuracy gives too much already (i.e. on dt maps).

thanks in advance

Just one example what came to my head - rank a map with only few circles and tons of sliders.
For "weird players" who shit on ranking it might be fun and enjoyable map.
For competitive players who only cares about numbers it will shit because literally zero pp from it.
ScoreV2 fix this problem since slider maps will give way more pp.
Yes, i am repeating myself but just putting this here so nobody from competitive don't forget that SV2 will increase your pepe.

winber1 wrote:

I don't really think skystar thinks too much in terms of "oh I can make this jump really big because it's a slider." Like, hell, most people still accuracy that correctly if it's just one of those slider jumps. When comes to dubsteppy music, then it's the section as a whole that makes rhythm hard, not those jumps in particular, as the difficulty is not the jumps but getting the right rhythm. Secondly, when I map stuff, I literally do not care about oh it's a slider so I can make large spacing. I make spacing because it flows well and fits well imo. Playability comes into play for mapping when outrageously large or outlandish spacing is used.

Of course maps like Dopamine might not be played the same, for the most part those sliders are placed on audible and emphasized beats. Any mapper who knows how to map should put notes on those beats such that this slider accuracy change would not really matter much. It's just pushing, as other have said, osu into a more accuracy driven game, while still maintaining all, if not most, of the aim game. Combo is still important, but it's just adding an extra layer of accuracy. In terms of flow and fun, all of these maps will still be great imo, but it just takes a little more effort on the player's side to get better accuracy, and hopefully pp may one day reflect the difficulty of these types of maps and reward us better for it.

I'm pretty sure Skystar does consider slider leniency for spacing. I got most of my style just staring at Skystar and fanzhen maps (didn't make me any good at mapping though).

Take a look at Ame to Asphalt as another example, a non wubby map of his.
Pretty much every circle with 1/4 beat stays under the sliderend or like 90% of it is touching it. Really low spacing. Only exception is the kiai (and that super 1/4 spam in the middle), which makes sense because kiai is supposed to be intense.
But 1/4 jumps on sliders on the other hand, never actually even touch the previous sliderend (I only saw 1 that was stacked to it) and has larger spacing than most, if not all, 1/4 circle jumps in the same section.
Skystar decided that slider leniency is great enough to put them further away solely for aesthetic reason.

Skystar and I can't be the only mappers who considers this kind of thing. You can be really creative with spacings using slider leniency. It has always been around and I'm sure many mappers got accustomed to it.

Basically what I'm saying is "reasonable jumps" might turn into "overmapped jumps" once slider leniency turn off, making some maps be unrankable or heavily modded. That's why I think removing leniency will only make future maps monotonous. As much as I'd love a slider buff since I'm an alternating player who specializes in double BPM and jump maps, as a person who also loves playing creative maps, I don't know if sacrificing that creativity is worth the change.

I mainly wanted to point out the stylistic spacing choice you can make with slider leniency because most people only focuses on the rhythmic side of it. I understand the wub sliders are mostly difficult because of the complex rhythm (I mentioned it a tiny bit in the last paragraph).

-[Koinuri] wrote:

Basically what I'm saying is "reasonable jumps" might turn into "overmapped jumps" once slider leniency turn off, making some maps be unrankable or heavily modded.

and I was trying to explain this is not even remotely the case. You might be able to say such things about less experienced who will be more inclined to inaccurately hit sliders such as these, but this does not affect how the slider is and should be played in general. Whether or not the slider heavily spaced does not make me decide that I should give myself more leeway and click the hitcircle slightly later than I would normally. If I see a pattern, I will hit it as accurately as possible regardless of where the slider jumps are. In no way did they decrease the leniency of the end of the slider (so you can still clear the slider without completing the whole slider, i.e. kick sliders work fine still).

All I'm saying is that these jumps still do play the same, and all you have to do is accurately hit the next note. The jump from one slider end to another slider start is still the same.

Of course in certain situations, when people have placed sliders on really awkward beats that don't match up to the music that well, accuracy becomes somewhat of an issue. However, the modding process generally should get rid of those weird placements, and there aren't many maps with awkward slider positions. With this addition, I do agree there is a little more to think about when mapping, but it's more hinged on rhythmic understanding rather than distance snapping.

Just noticed DT and NC have the same kind of bonus - what is the point of NC then?
Was it the result of this new score system change or was it always like this?

The point of nc is to sound funny and make the voices high pitched

The point of NC is to use NC+Auto and then put it on 0.5x speed

I mean it was basically an april fools joke a few years back and then people like omfg pls keep, and mr ppy man was like whatever and later implemented it. so i guess we all have weeaboo stigma in us now

Mahogany wrote:

The point of NC is to use NC+Auto and then put it on 0.5x speed

Nah man, it's an easier DT. You just go turn music to 0% and effects to 100% and profit.

When I experienced Score V2 on OWC2015, I was really feel like "What the fu**?"
Score V2 is ignoring feature of osu! Standard till now.

It would make many osu! Standard players quit from this game :O

Do you need to change that even nobody wants it?
At least, There are not players who like this score system on my friends.

Do you really have to do that?

B1rd wrote:

Now 15 minute marathons will be worth as much as 30 second easys? Ranked score will be completely irrelevant. Too bad for people who've spent half a decade farming score, it''ll now be all for nothing.

Also, the SS only players are probably gonna have a really bad day.

i only have a problem with the score cap thats really dumb the accuracy slider thing is a whatever more reason to practice acc now right?

bye bye osu, it was a funny time



i didn't like this idea of "score v2"

I'm fine with the slider changes, if kick sliders and bpm changes remain playable I'm ok with it.

The score cap is absurd though, why would you implement that now, after thousands of players farming score for years? The main benefit of playing marathons is score, at least for me. If a 10 minute marathon is going to be worth the same score as some tv size map there would be no purpose in playing for score anymore. (and a lot of players enjoy it, including me)

this reminds me of when Jagex released EOC for runescape, dispite the playerbase calling for it not to be realeased and for runescape to remain the same. As expected, Jagex released EOC anyway, and half the player base quit, it was only until a petition was signed to release an old server (2007) of runescape, as a seperate part of the game. Jagex eventually released this, and everyone started again with wiped accounts (seperate to the current EOC). The point is, the change ruined the game's popularity, and dispite Jagex's eventual back tracking into releasing an old server of the game to please the majority of the player base, the game itself has seen nothing close in terms of player numbers since 2011.

I should also say that they did this in 'an attempt to make runescape more like other MMORPGS' well.. it turned out really well for them and basically killed the game

Sylveon wrote:

this reminds me of when Jagex released EOC for runescape, dispite the playerbase calling for it not to be realeased and for runescape to remain the same. As expected, Jagex released EOC anyway, and half the player base quit, it was only until a petition was signed to release an old server (2007) of runescape, as a seperate part of the game. Jagex eventually released this, and everyone started again with wiped accounts (seperate to the current EOC). The point is, the change ruined the game's popularity, and dispite Jagex's eventual back tracking into releasing an old server of the game to please the majority of the player base, the game itself has seen nothing close in terms of player numbers since 2011.

This is a good point as why not to alienate half your playerbase just for the sake of 'change'.

Yeah, yeah, I know, it's a necromanced thread, but is ScoreV2 Solo happening or not?

On newly ranked maps, yes, eventually.

I'm a tiny little dissappointed, because i thought score v2 and the wiping would come alongside osu!next, but it looks It'll come way earlier than that.
Would've been cool though.

Wish it is.

Hopefully never.

Well, I'm positive that peppy is searching for a more wellrounded option.
If he didn't it wouldve got implemented already after all.

As i summed up already - there is a reason why pro players who was in OWC recommends in great majority Score V2 and support this idea.
There is a reason why people who played a lot multi on Score V2 and got just used to it recommend it.

There is also a reason why i see sheep-train complaining about score v2 with b1rd on it's head and his pathetic signature with dunno, maybe not even 10 hours of gameplay on it.

If peppy finds wellrounded way - its ok as far as he will keep accuracy and same OD for sliders like it is now for circles.

yea I'm a sheep because I have my own opinion. Your thing on the OWC players is just a lie, there has been no consensus on whether they want Score v2 in single player, and the ones I've talked about it don't particularly like it.

the majority of people don't want Score v2 at all, and only 30% want it how it is now. Source: my poll.

we shouldn't make assumptions on things we haven't really tried yet. Lets see and wait how this goes first before activating "caps lock mode" in spam emails to peppy.

Stick your hand in a fire. you don't know if you'll like it until you've tried it, don't make assumptions!

And for the record, I > have < tried Score V2. It feels terrible to play.

Source: my poll.

According to your poor spelling, pool is fine in condition regreding Performance Points System but not scoring system.
From what i see you asked if pp system is fine.
Score V2 is a new scoring system, not new pp system.
Two very different things.
Your pool is irrevelant to Score V2.
kthxbai.

the majority of people

43% is not a majority
26% agree to release it under certain considitons
30% agree to release like it is now
43% vs 56% (30% + 26% counted as yes "if")

As i said - poor spelling...

yea I'm a sheep because I have my own opinion.

Like you "had an opinion" about streams where you ended up being a laughing stock
Sure m8 i r8 8/8

B1rd wrote:

Stick your hand in a fire. you don't know if you'll like it until you've tried it, don't make assumptions!

Your comparing a scoring system to a fire? Hilarious. It's a change in a game; you're not going to burn your fucking hand off.

[Taiga] wrote:

According to your poor spelling, pool is fine in condition regreding Performance Points System but not scoring system.
From what i see you asked if pp system is fine.
Score V2 is a new scoring system, not new pp system.
Two very different things.
Your pool is irrevelant to Score V2.
kthxbai.

the majority of people

43% is not a majority
26% agree to release it under certain considitons
30% agree to release like it is now
43% vs 56% (30% + 26% counted as yes "if")

Sorry I couldn't understand any of that, maybe if you learnt to spell I could understand you.

[Taiga] wrote:

Like you "had an opinion" about streams where you ended up being a laughing stock
Sure m8 i r8 8/8

Endie- wrote:

B1rd wrote:

Stick your hand in a fire. you don't know if you'll like it until you've tried it, don't make assumptions!

Your comparing a scoring system to a fire? Hilarious. It's a change in a game; you're not going to burn your fucking hand off.

wow, it's almost like you already have sufficient information to make an accurate prediction of what will happen in both of these situations.

Tbh, on the vast majority of maps, score v2 plays out perfectly fine.
It always felt wrong to hit in the 50 area and receive no punishment just cause it was a slider.
People found sufficient arguments why this hurts some maps so finding a tweak is kind of logical since there's no reason to rush.
I would doubt that most more experienced players who are against Score v2 are against making sliders relevant for accuracy in general.

B1rd wrote:

the majority of people don't want Score v2 at all, and only 30% want it how it is now. Source: my poll.

43% isn't the moajority m8. Watch this to see why (watch till 1:37)

[Taiga] wrote:

Source: my poll.

According to your poor spelling, pool is fine in condition regreding Performance Points System but not scoring system.
From what i see you asked if pp system is fine.
Score V2 is a new scoring system, not new pp system.
Two very different things.
Your pool is irrevelant to Score V2.
kthxbai.

the majority of people

43% is not a majority
26% agree to release it under certain considitons
30% agree to release like it is now
43% vs 56% (30% + 26% counted as yes "if")

As i said - poor spelling...

yea I'm a sheep because I have my own opinion.

Like you "had an opinion" about streams where you ended up being a laughing stock
Sure m8 i r8 8/8

Did you not get the memo? The only part of Score v2 that the top players have any sort of consensus on is the CONCEPT of slider accuracy. That's nothing to do with 'a new pp system'. Score v2 itself had an overwhelmingly negative reputation among top players with slider accuracy being the only positive. However, I've already shown on page 10 that no matter how you implement slider accuracy it will end up having side effects which are entirely dependent on the way in which you implement in (why I specifically said 'concept of slider accuracy' because opinions between the top will be split with what implementation of slider accuracy works best). peppy is nowhere to be seen on the topic of Score v2/slider accuracy - I'm half expecting it to be rolled out in a stealth update with no warning. Apparently it doesn't matter how many legitimate points are brought up because he has no presence. He's not responding or even showing an attempt of facilitating discussion. It gives a very bad impression.

p/4946955

You also believe that slider accuracy will fix a sizable number of map and this obviously is one of the reasons you support it except there's just one problem. Your claim is absolutely baseless. There is no evidence for it yet you believe in it and argue in favour of it. I could write more but chances are that it's lost on you since I've already said a lot of this before.

All public polls on this topic are completely useless. There are just far too many votes from people who can't be bothered to actually think about it but still think their 'opinion' is just as meaningful as anyone else. Honestly this kind of thing makes me want a rank restricted vote.