like our eyes?N0thingSpecial wrote:
Everything is predetermined by fate and nothing is realMomiji wrote:
Probability of missing based on aim skill and difficulty of the pattern/object/whatever, isn't it?
like our eyes?N0thingSpecial wrote:
Everything is predetermined by fate and nothing is realMomiji wrote:
Probability of missing based on aim skill and difficulty of the pattern/object/whatever, isn't it?
CptBlackBird wrote:
N0thingSpecial wrote:
Momiji wrote:
Probability of missing based on aim skill and difficulty of the pattern/object/whatever, isn't it?
Everything is predetermined by fate and nothing is real
like our eyes?
The change doesn't remove slider leniency. Slider leniency is a property of the slider end, not the slider start.-[Koinuri] wrote:
well I'm kind of late to the map discussion but...
Removing slider leniency will most likely affect mapping. The only reason some jumps and other slider leniency reliant techniques were allowed was because sliders were lenient. Without this leniency, you won't be able to defend your map anymore. QATs and others will start regulating the wide jumps using sliders, because if you can't use circle for it, there's no reason to allow sliders to. People will start modding out 1/4 jumps like this or this and many other big jumps out there. The mappers will be hesitant in using the sliders the same way because they lack leniency. I know I wouldn't place a circle that far apart, so I'm not sure if I'd want to put sliders without leniency that far apart either.
The problem with removing slider leniency doesn't lie on unplayability of the old sliders, but on limiting future creative maps.
Should change the theme song into nekodex - circles and slidersCptBlackBird wrote:
CLICK THE CIRCLES.... and sliders?...
TO THE BEAT
CIRCLES... and sliders
Why are we butchering gameplay to fit the ranking system?bulli wrote:
this would also just fit better to the current pp system (176pp for SS on Scarlet Rose)
I saw this poll, but was completely unable to vote, as I don't have a twitter account. Are staff trying to hide stuff from us?Mofu kun wrote:
on a twitter poll
I've always called the ability to hit sliders really late/early slider leniency too. Probably should've clarified.Silynn wrote:
The change doesn't remove slider leniency. Slider leniency is a property of the slider end, not the slider start.
HR being equal to HD is way too broken.C00L wrote:
Why force a change on something if its not broken?
CptBlackBird wrote:
tbh after thinking about the score wipe, it might be pretty goddamn fun right after the wipe because everyone will be trying to get ranks as fast as possible so they can enjoy being 1 digit for few minutes xd
I agree with this. None of the changes seem reasonable except for a possible slider OD change. And yeah, I disagree with a lot of things Azer says. Having a high rank and Twitch sub count doesn't necessarily make his opinions any more accurate.JappyBabes wrote:
SPOILERPutting this at the top of the post but the amount of straw-man or people that say 'this doesn't really affect me' is sickening. https://ask.fm/AzerFrost/answers/136789314978 I get that Azer is a yes-man when it comes to this sort of shit but don't claim that "this change motivates players to actually learn rhythm and improve their accuracy instead of just complaining that they're gonna lose potential pp from new maps or just straight up quit the game". People that already don't care about accuracy are going to be the same as ever. People that do care about accuracy aren't going around intentionally hitting sliders in the 100 hit window and hitting circles perfectly. There are a ton of other people straw-manning but I figure it helps to put a community figure on blast because it harms legitimate discussion. There are going to be droves of people just parroting what they see because they're too lazy to actually think about how certain changes affect the game or alternative solutions. To the people that post 'this doesn't affect me', it's simple - just don't post. This thread obviously isn't for you if you don't care enough.
Slider accuracy doesn't have the explicit implication of Score V2 (on a side note peppy's claim that 95% of OWC participants were in support of it is a complete fabrication unless he means slider accuracy only - I can definitely see 95% of participants agreeing that slider accuracy should be implemented in SOME way). Let's just look at the possibilities and see how it goes. One thing to mention is that there is no scenario where mapping remains unaffected. Just because you can still technically map in the exact same way it does not mean people will end up doing so. Look at PP v2, the mapping meta has completely changed in direct relation to the update. Modifying one of two possible hitobjects, not counting spinners, is a similarly large change (although I predict it would not have quite the same effect on mapping).
Scenario: Score V2 in its entirety
Possible Outcome: Score wipe
Result: Unity but at an unjustifiable price. Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play the same.
Scenario: Score V2 in its entirety
Possible Outcome: New maps have Score V2
Result: Difference in old and new is ugly - causes problems with score rank, level etc. Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play differently.
Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: New maps have slider accuracy
Result: Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play differently. Score is consistent.
Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: Mod regarding slider accuracy
Result: Integrity of old scoreboards is gone. Open to abuse. Why would a user turn it off? Old maps *can* be played the same. Slider utility is maintained. Score is consistent.
Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: Editor related change (either a second slider-like hitobject or slider OD setting).
Result: Slider utility is maintained. Old maps play the same. Integrity of scoreboards is maintained. Precedent exists (AR + OD split or decimal values) for changing editor in a way which only affects new maps. Score is consistent. Mapping evolves with more options (most likely for the better).
It's not that a score wipe or a new mod are bad things. Just that Score V2 or slider accuracy are not big enough changes to justify it. Should be obvious that I'm in favour for slider OD (something like a slider from current behaviour to hit circle behaviour).
https://twitter.com/ppy/status/704944348501250048 Side note but feel free to ask other people that played or look at the mp links for owc matches, the change from v1 to v2 did not have a meaningful impact nor fulfill the purpose of valuing accuracy to the level it claimed to. Of all the matches I saw, the outcome would have been the same had it been v1 although since I did not watch every match I'm not stupid enough to claim it had zero impact. I personally see no reason why a score-cap needs to be implemented (following other rhythm games is not a logical argument) but even if v2 were to be implemented it needs so much more revision which I haven't seen a mention of but hey I don't read every tweet peppy makes. Maybe he has said something about it.B1rd wrote:
It'd be nice if there was actually some dialogue, but peppy just seems to want to steam ahead with these changes and everyone who has a problem be damned. Changes in a game should happen naturally when most people want them, not forced by the dev team while ignoring the complaints of half the community.
Could I have the source where peppy said 95% of tourney players were in agreement with score v2?
I don't really think skystar thinks too much in terms of "oh I can make this jump really big because it's a slider." Like, hell, most people still accuracy that correctly if it's just one of those slider jumps. When comes to dubsteppy music, then it's the section as a whole that makes rhythm hard, not those jumps in particular, as the difficulty is not the jumps but getting the right rhythm. Secondly, when I map stuff, I literally do not care about oh it's a slider so I can make large spacing. I make spacing because it flows well and fits well imo. Playability comes into play for mapping when outrageously large or outlandish spacing is used.-[Koinuri] wrote:
I think it's pretty clear Skystar increased those spacing in this map only because sliders were lenient. He wouldn't have placed them that far if sliders were as strict as circles. The only reason these large jumps for sliders were allowed to pass was because the receiving end was lenient enough to allow easy 300s on that jump.
And rrtyui, who would've gotten same score on Big Black scorev2, would've also gotten 12 100s instead of 3 on Dopamine, and WWW would've gotten 48 100s + 2 50s instead of 29 100s + 0 50s (There might be some counting errors but it should be around those numbers). Dopamine is a map way more reliant on the leniency due to its complex rhythm and unpredictable spacings. There's no way maps like Dopamine will play the same way on scorev2.
I'm pretty sure Skystar does consider slider leniency for spacing. I got most of my style just staring at Skystar and fanzhen maps (didn't make me any good at mapping though).winber1 wrote:
I don't really think skystar thinks too much in terms of "oh I can make this jump really big because it's a slider." Like, hell, most people still accuracy that correctly if it's just one of those slider jumps. When comes to dubsteppy music, then it's the section as a whole that makes rhythm hard, not those jumps in particular, as the difficulty is not the jumps but getting the right rhythm. Secondly, when I map stuff, I literally do not care about oh it's a slider so I can make large spacing. I make spacing because it flows well and fits well imo. Playability comes into play for mapping when outrageously large or outlandish spacing is used.
Of course maps like Dopamine might not be played the same, for the most part those sliders are placed on audible and emphasized beats. Any mapper who knows how to map should put notes on those beats such that this slider accuracy change would not really matter much. It's just pushing, as other have said, osu into a more accuracy driven game, while still maintaining all, if not most, of the aim game. Combo is still important, but it's just adding an extra layer of accuracy. In terms of flow and fun, all of these maps will still be great imo, but it just takes a little more effort on the player's side to get better accuracy, and hopefully pp may one day reflect the difficulty of these types of maps and reward us better for it.
and I was trying to explain this is not even remotely the case. You might be able to say such things about less experienced who will be more inclined to inaccurately hit sliders such as these, but this does not affect how the slider is and should be played in general. Whether or not the slider heavily spaced does not make me decide that I should give myself more leeway and click the hitcircle slightly later than I would normally. If I see a pattern, I will hit it as accurately as possible regardless of where the slider jumps are. In no way did they decrease the leniency of the end of the slider (so you can still clear the slider without completing the whole slider, i.e. kick sliders work fine still).-[Koinuri] wrote:
Basically what I'm saying is "reasonable jumps" might turn into "overmapped jumps" once slider leniency turn off, making some maps be unrankable or heavily modded.
Nah man, it's an easier DT. You just go turn music to 0% and effects to 100% and profit.Mahogany wrote:
The point of NC is to use NC+Auto and then put it on 0.5x speed
i only have a problem with the score cap thats really dumb the accuracy slider thing is a whatever more reason to practice acc now right?B1rd wrote:
Now 15 minute marathons will be worth as much as 30 second easys? Ranked score will be completely irrelevant. Too bad for people who've spent half a decade farming score, it''ll now be all for nothing.
Also, the SS only players are probably gonna have a really bad day.
This is a good point as why not to alienate half your playerbase just for the sake of 'change'.Sylveon wrote:
this reminds me of when Jagex released EOC for runescape, dispite the playerbase calling for it not to be realeased and for runescape to remain the same. As expected, Jagex released EOC anyway, and half the player base quit, it was only until a petition was signed to release an old server (2007) of runescape, as a seperate part of the game. Jagex eventually released this, and everyone started again with wiped accounts (seperate to the current EOC). The point is, the change ruined the game's popularity, and dispite Jagex's eventual back tracking into releasing an old server of the game to please the majority of the player base, the game itself has seen nothing close in terms of player numbers since 2011.