Spaghetti wrote:
_dog has a much better explanation of this current issue on one of my maps threads
This DQ is starting to annoy me so I'm just going to post what I said on your thread here, enjoy :-):
Spaghetti wrote:
When I first mapped it, everything was great, after so many DQ's and applying changes for the sole purpose of making this rankable, it isn't the same map anymore, it's just so changed that I can't deal with it anymore. Every point I get into pkk's mod, the more I dislike the changes and the worse the map gets, but the changes have to be made or people will get mad.
If every little thing of this map has to be pin-perfect in order to get into QUALFIED, this becomes more of a job than a hobby.
I might change my mind later, but I feel as I'm editing someone else map at this point, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry pkk, but all these changes are way too specific and nazi for me. I want this to be my map, not yours, and not nobody elses. In return, since I see that you put so much effort into this, I'ma owe you 3 mods in return, and for every KD I get from those mods, I'ma shoot them at your map.
I'm sorry.
Welp, it seems like this issue is finally starting to surface. I addressed this two years ago, and was told the community was “not ready for this discussion”, but upon recent events, it seems like we are now.
While Spaghetti’s comment may seem just like someone who is denying a DQ, the words stated in this comment are profound. I will be dividing this into sections.
*While reading this post I also would like you all to take note of:
t/331416The steps to mapping and ranking from my perspective is:
Create -> Normalize -> Process -> Discovery -> DenyCreation: The time when a map is first born.The mapper has picked an idea for their map to revolve around and has placed what they feel is appropriate. They have decided to post and are now looking for people to better their map. They have gotten their GDs/Collabs or sets complete and they are, by assumption, content with what they have done and are ready to ‘rank’.
Now it is time to receive mods. The mapper discovers some things they have missed and learns what they need to do for rank and, at first, they do it nothing’s wrong their map is still the same they’ve just… improved it a bit
Normalize:Now the map has reached an SP of 12 and is ready to be ranked. The map is looking clean and it's starting to look like a ‘real’ map. It fits what is out there today. It has its PP giving jumps. The mapper is filled with hype they think they’ve made it. The map is “ready”.
What is ready to you? Good ‘flow’? Good ‘structure’? Pixel perfect symmetry? You can’t say ‘good map’, and what you say honestly won’t matter so why bother? The map is ready because a group of individuals believe it’s ready. This group of individuals have created the idea of ready. Well, divided group of individuals. One side thinks it isn’t ready the other does, and only when both have reached a point of agreement can the map be ranked. This is normalization.
Quality is subjective, and while there is a widespread agreement on a certain level of quality, relying on one group to determine and decide that level has made it impossible for a map with different standards to be able to even be considered. Now, I’m not here to say it’s this ‘group's’ fault as the idea of it is great; however, the frame for it is weak and doesn’t allow for many options before it falls down.
If a map is disqualified the ones who ranked it receive a penalty. Why put trust in a mapper who has used controversial techniques, isn’t well known, and mapped in a style thats different than average. Some may say well that mapper needs to gain experience and gain a higher status in the community before they can do crazy things like that. Why though? Why limit a map because of the status of a mapper?
Some may say well the standards are changing everyday so what we allowed before we don’t allow anymore, but then you give examples of maps that are in the process of being ranked or recently got ranked with those things, and you sit and wonder to yourself, when on earth did this standard change to not allow that to happen, and why is that already well known mapper about to rank a map with that in it?
So then you say, well maybe it doesn’t fit the song? People back it up.
Widely known and accepted mappers with non normalized maps haven’t shown up in years. People say that a new mapper can get to that level but our system doesn’t allow for it. The mappers who are able to get through now are able to because when they were at the bottom they were presented with a more lenient system, and now they’re at the top so people trust their decisions without contest and they get through while the lower potentially good mapper does not.
At this point in time people will send me maps by lesser known mappers, and each map will have a differing and noticeable style. At the same time however, I can provide you with multiple maps all pairing with those styles. Variety can still equal normativity.
dorothy3242 wrote:
While there appears to be variety among maps today, it's not just about current variety using current methods, but also allowing for the entrance of new ideas
Process:These are the final stages of the ranking process. The QAT and BNs are bubbling and the disqualifications are happening. Upon disqualification we head back to the normalizing step. And soon we enter the stage of discovery.
Discovery:So let’s head back to our original quote at the top. Spaghetti is in the stage of discovery. They have realized what their map has become. They have seen that it is not theirs anymore and they are unhappy with it.
Spaghetti wrote:
applying changes for the sole purpose of making this rankable
Normalized.
Spaghetti wrote:
Every point I get into pkk's mod, the more I dislike the changes and the worse the map gets, but the changes have to be made or people will get mad.
It is at this time that I ask you to go read the post marked with the asterisk.
We aren’t modding in the eyes of the mapper. We are pushing and enforcing our views on their map. It has become no different than any other, and this is where it’s understood that it is a false idea to think that you are creating your own map, but rather you have picked a song and done the work required for it to be ranked. With this idea in mind, osu! should have switched to an auto-generate beatmap system a long time ago.
What’s interesting is that the older members of the community who tend to be a part of these groups and work on making these decisions tend to reminisce on the times before systems like these. For instance, read a couple of beatmap threads from 2008, and you will realize there was a whole different view on how maps should be back then. It was all about what the mapper wanted in the end, and others just gave suggestions. Not requirements, suggestions.
Discovery is a time when we all should have recognized the issue. Not just in Spaghetti’s situation, but for all maps.
Cl8n wrote:
If we all just recognize the existence of this problem, then surely, we as a community together, can make a better system and/or environment for everyone. The community is "ready for this discussion" now.
Deny:This is our usual response to this issue, and hopefully that will change. This is where we deny what’s going on, dismiss Spaghetti, and move on to another map for it to happen again. This is when a map has finally been ranked, and we deny how changed it is: how normal it has become. This is where you deny this post and move on.