Drace Double Kill
Drace is now Dominating!
Drace is now Dominating!
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osu!mania is so fun
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Total Posts
118
I'm still of the opinion that those sort of systems are ultimately superfluous and unnecessary, but yes, the dan system is definitely better than what osu provides. I still see no real point in something like the dan system given that skill is so fluid, and any and all achievements are ultimately relative anyway.Drace wrote:
I agree the song choices in the dan system could be better, but I was specifically talking about the system, how it works, and what it can potentially become. Comparing to the PP system, no matter how perfect it becomes, you cannot list players in order of skill. It simply doesn't work out that way. At least with dans, the perfect songlists (note the plural) leads to a perfect system. Plus they don't need to be perfectly spaced out evenly in difficulty, just something relatively correct is enough to form a ladder people enjoy climbing. And there's also more than 1 scale, there's douzens.
Score, and even the actual counts for each judgement are not objective gameplay data, but are derived from a small set of objective data (specifically, the exact timing for each keypress). Ultimately any data derived from this is not as useful as the raw data itself when it comes to measuring improvement. Distilling your performance down to a single "score" will never be suited to accurately measuring skill. Too much information is lost. Osu does provide both the unstable rate as well as the timing bar, which are particularly useful for measuring performance (even if the numbers for the unstable rate are useless for anything but simple comparisons).Drace wrote:
Score, score, score.
Please. Scoring is broken and you know it. Is that the medium you use to measure your improvements? Is that the medium you potentially want to be measuring your improvements with?
My argument is that by and large those flaws do not necessitate playing a different game to get 'good'. I'll admit that Osu is not the ideal game for competitive high level VSRG competition or anything of that nature. My objection to your comments has generally been because you are effectively telling players 'you can't get good playing osu'. You can get 'good'. The only time the difference in mechanics is likely to become relevant is at the highest skill levels (and I'd wager that 90+% of the people at that skill level are already aware of other games right now.)Drace wrote:
That's because they're in fact inferior and you agreed to this notion multiple times already. Saying things about how you circumvent the issues does nothing but enforce my arguments.
The fact that your advice to go play other games has been directed at anyone, rather than those players at the sort of skill level that these things actually matter is what bothers me most about it. I don't have a problem with suggesting that there are other games in general, just with the premise of "if you care about skill, you should play something else".
You know I'm well aware of the flaws in osu (better than most people do, I would think, considering how much we've discussed them), my problem has mostly been with the attitude you bring whenever you post on the forums. I've gotten sick of seeing negative posts about osu which, while generally true in terms of critical content, have little to no positive contribution to the situation. I'm effectively saying "If you don't have something nice (or useful) to say, just don't say it". And it's not because I disagree with the criticism, but that I, like many people, have come to the conclusion that whining about it isn't going to change anything. I just don't want to see it any more. Not to mention that it's not hard to start a flame war or other ridiculous drama by posting negative things like that. I've been browsing the web for long enough that I've gotten thoroughly sick of flamewars and bullshit drama online.
Pretty sure Tear just didn't understand your little story time segment.Drace wrote:
Who's behavior, what game.Tear wrote:
Your behavior is the game's fault
Whatever
Thanks for staying on point and civil about things. I might disagree with you on some stuff, but that's just a difference of opinion. Not like there's any scientific data to back either of us up on the majority of this anyway (and if there is, I'd love to see it).
EDIT: and if peppy by chance sees this, please don't lock this thread. Drace and I are having a legitimate civil discussion.
But I can't even grasp what you're trying to prove when none of your arguments are necessarily pro-osu.That's because I'm not a fanboy, and I'm explaining that osu! is the best VSRG for me, not the best VSRG ever (which doesn't exist, because it's subjective). I'm essentially proving that you can't objectively call a game worse than another one. osu! editor is the best FOR ME at the moment, because it has features I care about that other editors don't and the features it's lacking are the ones I don't care about. If there's either a game or an editor that's better for me, please tell.
Rank is rank, it's indeed purposed to list players in order of skill, don't try to say otherwise.No, that's not its purpose.
Drace is not civil, it's quite a challenge to weed out his arguments from the insults. Please lock this thread. Bobbias can continue his conversation via PM.
It's not hard to tell his arguments from his insults (which could be done without but that's none of my business), the thread is fine as it is.Tear wrote:
Drace is not civil, it's quite a challenge to weed out his arguments from the insults. Please lock this thread. Bobbias can continue his conversation via PM.
Drace and bobbias are perfectly being civil. They are providing strong arguments with examples and their personal experiences to back their arguments. He's "insulting" you because you're trying to butt in his conversation with bobbias by not staying on topic and giving unnecessary comments.
The thread doesn't need to be locked.
The thread doesn't need to be locked.
Topic Starter
Tear, I never once called a game worse than others, you didn't even read anything I posted did you. That's maybe why you're off-topic, you don't even understand what is being discussed here.
The only reason I "weeded" negative attitude in my replies towards him, is do to how I took his lack of thought in his own reply as an insult. All he did was mindlessly deny a handful of the less meaningful statements without even properly elaborating why. I'm merely sending the same negative attitude and lack of respect back to him but channeled in a different matter. Plus he still managed to make an other post completely off-topic so I'll just ignore him now.
---
Bobbias, if we go back to my very first statement. All I said was "the true enthusiasts amoungst you should take time to consider this". And this does refer to the top percentile of players. This only escalated after Tear asked me a question, it was only right for me to answer it. But once more I'd like to stress that no one here whining. This was never intended to spread negative attitude, and I don't believe it did. It was just to raise awareness in a comical matter. Not everyone is aware of the gimmicks in osu and I don't think there's any reason for them not to know.
And I mostly agree with everything else, but I still believe the generalized "if you care about your skill" is best. If the end goal is to "be good at VSRGs", why not just start playing all of them on the get-go. Instead of playing osu exclusively, picking up bad habits, then having to work to overcome them. And I can't see why proper punishing is better for improvement at higher levels than lower levels. Everyone profits from optimal mechanics.
I don't really want to get out of line here, but it's kind of hard to make the statements you're making when you barely played games other than osu after taking rhythm gaming a little more seriously. From my end, most people who opens up and starts playing everything never looks back. Only people who go back to being an exclusive osu player are the ones who believed the other games were too hard, too different or aren't dedicated enough to go through troublesome procedures to get things set up. Of course an other downfall of o2 and lr2.
The biggest point I've been trying to push forward here, since this stopped being a joke and became a discussion, is there is no game best for everything at this very moment. But every game can be considered the best at certain things. Being able to see the pros and the cons of every game, and using all of the games to your advantage is by no doubt the best road to quick improvement.
The only reason I "weeded" negative attitude in my replies towards him, is do to how I took his lack of thought in his own reply as an insult. All he did was mindlessly deny a handful of the less meaningful statements without even properly elaborating why. I'm merely sending the same negative attitude and lack of respect back to him but channeled in a different matter. Plus he still managed to make an other post completely off-topic so I'll just ignore him now.
---
Bobbias, if we go back to my very first statement. All I said was "the true enthusiasts amoungst you should take time to consider this". And this does refer to the top percentile of players. This only escalated after Tear asked me a question, it was only right for me to answer it. But once more I'd like to stress that no one here whining. This was never intended to spread negative attitude, and I don't believe it did. It was just to raise awareness in a comical matter. Not everyone is aware of the gimmicks in osu and I don't think there's any reason for them not to know.
And I mostly agree with everything else, but I still believe the generalized "if you care about your skill" is best. If the end goal is to "be good at VSRGs", why not just start playing all of them on the get-go. Instead of playing osu exclusively, picking up bad habits, then having to work to overcome them. And I can't see why proper punishing is better for improvement at higher levels than lower levels. Everyone profits from optimal mechanics.
I don't really want to get out of line here, but it's kind of hard to make the statements you're making when you barely played games other than osu after taking rhythm gaming a little more seriously. From my end, most people who opens up and starts playing everything never looks back. Only people who go back to being an exclusive osu player are the ones who believed the other games were too hard, too different or aren't dedicated enough to go through troublesome procedures to get things set up. Of course an other downfall of o2 and lr2.
The biggest point I've been trying to push forward here, since this stopped being a joke and became a discussion, is there is no game best for everything at this very moment. But every game can be considered the best at certain things. Being able to see the pros and the cons of every game, and using all of the games to your advantage is by no doubt the best road to quick improvement.
Forums are not a place for a conversation between two people. If you don't want comments from bystanders, go somewhere else.-Hazelnut wrote:
He's "insulting" you because you're trying to butt in his conversation with bobbias by not staying on topic and giving unnecessary comments.
I love how you all blame peppy for making osu!mania to be super lenient and the maps not being challenging enough.
Per se, nothing on mania has been changed since woc created it. Any blame you put on peppy is actually a blame you put on woc, your overly worshipped random chinese coder, who basically only submitted broken code all over the place (see: osu!mania editor). The only thing you can blame peppy for is the hitsound rule, but thats an old and boring story now.
You are also whining because this game is not for hardcorers? That's ridiculous, you just failed to map proper hardcore maps so far. I can understand that here is a portion of people who got used to the bullcrap released on the arcade machines, where the map is optional to the actual song, and the map is only trying to make you rape the buttons harder, whereas you could simply turn off the mp3. You know it is a bit like that. You try to make osu! look like a game that tries to run off the rank of your beloved lunatic rave 2 or o2mania or stepmania, but well. osu! is not an arcade machine. osu! is an emulator like lr2 or o2mania. the difference in lr2 and o2mania: there is no moderation or gatekeeping, every bullshit map is available and playable. Well, this is also happening here. But unless of hyping the bullshit, it usually does simply not get ranked and therefore you call stuff lacking here.
Once in a lifetime, stop complaining. This thread is so pointless. I can not stand this arbitrary and superficial comments anymore. No one will stop you playing lr2, like no one stops Taiko players to play TnT or osu! player Elite Beats Agent. You are complaining about the imperfection of a system that is unique so far (or name me one emulator that has such a community integration.. oh yeh, there is none. o2mania's pool is basically .. is it even still up? I don't know. It was never really working for me. lr2 map page is only in japanese or klingon (for those who can not read japanese) and the community spread over 290294234 little forums, stepmania online ranking was weird, too) Even tho that osu! has not the perfect maps so far, I'd like to remmeber you how Beatmania started with their first arcade machines in the first years. Yes, exactly. With quite easy poop these days.
You can not expect the osu! community and the handful of mappers to map the insane shit from the very first day. Especialyl when the mentality here is not "harder, faster, stronger" but "quality > difficulty". We are getting more and more difficult maps here, the gameplay mechanics are similiar to BMS (woc actually copied the entire mechanism, I have no idea how much he tested stuff there tho), but I feel no real difference from o2jam to osu!mania tbh, apart of the drain rate and overall difficulty, which is even still variable.
Per se, nothing on mania has been changed since woc created it. Any blame you put on peppy is actually a blame you put on woc, your overly worshipped random chinese coder, who basically only submitted broken code all over the place (see: osu!mania editor). The only thing you can blame peppy for is the hitsound rule, but thats an old and boring story now.
You are also whining because this game is not for hardcorers? That's ridiculous, you just failed to map proper hardcore maps so far. I can understand that here is a portion of people who got used to the bullcrap released on the arcade machines, where the map is optional to the actual song, and the map is only trying to make you rape the buttons harder, whereas you could simply turn off the mp3. You know it is a bit like that. You try to make osu! look like a game that tries to run off the rank of your beloved lunatic rave 2 or o2mania or stepmania, but well. osu! is not an arcade machine. osu! is an emulator like lr2 or o2mania. the difference in lr2 and o2mania: there is no moderation or gatekeeping, every bullshit map is available and playable. Well, this is also happening here. But unless of hyping the bullshit, it usually does simply not get ranked and therefore you call stuff lacking here.
Once in a lifetime, stop complaining. This thread is so pointless. I can not stand this arbitrary and superficial comments anymore. No one will stop you playing lr2, like no one stops Taiko players to play TnT or osu! player Elite Beats Agent. You are complaining about the imperfection of a system that is unique so far (or name me one emulator that has such a community integration.. oh yeh, there is none. o2mania's pool is basically .. is it even still up? I don't know. It was never really working for me. lr2 map page is only in japanese or klingon (for those who can not read japanese) and the community spread over 290294234 little forums, stepmania online ranking was weird, too) Even tho that osu! has not the perfect maps so far, I'd like to remmeber you how Beatmania started with their first arcade machines in the first years. Yes, exactly. With quite easy poop these days.
You can not expect the osu! community and the handful of mappers to map the insane shit from the very first day. Especialyl when the mentality here is not "harder, faster, stronger" but "quality > difficulty". We are getting more and more difficult maps here, the gameplay mechanics are similiar to BMS (woc actually copied the entire mechanism, I have no idea how much he tested stuff there tho), but I feel no real difference from o2jam to osu!mania tbh, apart of the drain rate and overall difficulty, which is even still variable.
this is hardly a bashing thread though, this is more of a "be aware of the game's shortcomings" thread
Then I must have misunderstood this tl;dr posts
tl;dr
p/3290576
The mechanics are lenient and lean towards a mindset that makes players pick up bad habits, which in turn made a player a cheater that destroyed another game's ecosystem when less lenient mechanics where pushed upon him.
If the game's perfect for you, great.
p/3292776
Tournaments are one-offs; it can't really say who the #1 is for a long period of time.
Nevertheless osu! has the bss and community integration as an incredible strength on its side.
He explains that every game has its strengths, and an enthusiast won't blindly defend any similar games.
p/3294706
The dan system is going to have problems; but a tiered milestone system is better than a global ranking.
osu! might not be the best game for high level competition, but he disagrees with the negative attitude.
p/3295569
Anyone who wants to be good at the VSRG genre should pick up more than just osu!mania.
p/3285423
osu! is for casual players. It's probably not going to change. If you want a hardcore set of mechanics there are options.
p/3287816
Improvement benchmarks should come from the player rather than a system. osu!'s passing threshold is lenient, but it still prefers easy SSs over clears, while drace sustains people look for clears.
p/3288302
A milestone system is a pretty good way to compare skill levels.
I might have misread, but this is my tl;dr
p/3290576
The mechanics are lenient and lean towards a mindset that makes players pick up bad habits, which in turn made a player a cheater that destroyed another game's ecosystem when less lenient mechanics where pushed upon him.
If the game's perfect for you, great.
p/3292776
Tournaments are one-offs; it can't really say who the #1 is for a long period of time.
Nevertheless osu! has the bss and community integration as an incredible strength on its side.
He explains that every game has its strengths, and an enthusiast won't blindly defend any similar games.
p/3294706
The dan system is going to have problems; but a tiered milestone system is better than a global ranking.
osu! might not be the best game for high level competition, but he disagrees with the negative attitude.
p/3295569
Anyone who wants to be good at the VSRG genre should pick up more than just osu!mania.
p/3285423
osu! is for casual players. It's probably not going to change. If you want a hardcore set of mechanics there are options.
p/3287816
Improvement benchmarks should come from the player rather than a system. osu!'s passing threshold is lenient, but it still prefers easy SSs over clears, while drace sustains people look for clears.
p/3288302
A milestone system is a pretty good way to compare skill levels.
I might have misread, but this is my tl;dr
He's "insulting" you because you're trying to butt in his conversation with bobbias by not staying on topic and giving unnecessary comments.Tear wrote:
Forums are not a place for a conversation between two people. If you don't want comments from bystanders, go somewhere else.-Hazelnut wrote:
He's "insulting" you because you're trying to butt in his conversation with bobbias by not staying on topic and giving unnecessary comments.
People should really read until the end.
Topic Starter
Hm just controlled+f the whole thread for "peppy" and the only time he was mentioned (other than the xcrypt remark) was from Bobbias, who was actually arguing against the cons I was pointing out. Where did you read that?Loctav wrote:
I love how you all blame peppy for making osu!mania to be super lenient and the maps not being challenging enough.
Per se, nothing on mania has been changed since woc created it. Any blame you put on peppy is actually a blame you put on woc, your overly worshipped random chinese coder, who basically only submitted broken code all over the place (see: osu!mania editor). The only thing you can blame peppy for is the hitsound rule, but thats an old and boring story now.
None of the arguments that took place here were about "hardcoreness" or maps. What was being discussed here is how certain mechanics can contribute to quicker and more proper improvements, and how other mechanics can lead to slower improvements and development of bad habits. Osu wasn't getting bashed here, and none of this was depicting which games are superior to others. I even took the time to point out osu's pros and the other game's cons to enforce this. But it seems only few people got the attention span to read and understand the entirety of my posts. I don't blame them though. They're pretty big.Loctav wrote:
You are also whining because this game is not for hardcorers? That's ridiculous, you just failed to map proper hardcore maps so far. I can understand that here is a portion of people who got used to the bullcrap released on the arcade machines, where the map is optional to the actual song, and the map is only trying to make you rape the buttons harder, whereas you could simply turn off the mp3. You know it is a bit like that. You try to make osu! look like a game that tries to run off the rank of your beloved lunatic rave 2 or o2mania or stepmania, but well. osu! is not an arcade machine. osu! is an emulator like lr2 or o2mania. the difference in lr2 and o2mania: there is no moderation or gatekeeping, every bullshit map is available and playable. Well, this is also happening here. But unless of hyping the bullshit, it usually does simply not get ranked and therefore you call stuff lacking here.
Once in a lifetime, stop complaining. This thread is so pointless. I can not stand this arbitrary and superficial comments anymore. No one will stop you playing lr2, like no one stops Taiko players to play TnT or osu! player Elite Beats Agent. You are complaining about the imperfection of a system that is unique so far (or name me one emulator that has such a community integration.. oh yeh, there is none. o2mania's pool is basically .. is it even still up? I don't know. It was never really working for me. lr2 map page is only in japanese or klingon (for those who can not read japanese) and the community spread over 290294234 little forums, stepmania online ranking was weird, too) Even tho that osu! has not the perfect maps so far, I'd like to remmeber you how Beatmania started with their first arcade machines in the first years. Yes, exactly. With quite easy poop these days.
The video that started this thread is but one of many differences... There's not a single mechanic that works the same here and all the other games, none. Is that a bad thing? Of course it's not. That's the variety and differences I'm pointing out here for crying out loud.Loctav wrote:
You can not expect the osu! community and the handful of mappers to map the insane shit from the very first day. Especialyl when the mentality here is not "harder, faster, stronger" but "quality > difficulty". We are getting more and more difficult maps here, the gameplay mechanics are similiar to BMS (woc actually copied the entire mechanism, I have no idea how much he tested stuff there tho), but I feel no real difference from o2jam to osu!mania tbh, apart of the drain rate and overall difficulty, which is even still variable.
First you say stop whining about the "differences" in osu, then you say "there is no difference". Um, what?
----
I don't mind people butting in at all, I encourage it. It's by discussing people come to conclusions. But if you're going argue one of someone's points, please take the time to elaborate and formulate proper arguments of your own. And don't forget to make sure you actually understand the point before saying anything about it. Simple "you're wrong cuz I said so" replies aren't constructive to a conversation and are simply an insulting waste of time. This isn't a poll, it's a discussion.
even if they revamp mania to actually be a proper game mode where you have to play a VSRG not fingermash420noscopesimulator2014 lots of people would quit i think i agree with drace people should just play another game if they want to experience this kind of rhythm game in the way its meant to be experienced... but i also dont think drace should be taking away so much from the people who actually love mania. you can get better at mania by playing mania end of story. spitting cheeto crumbs all over your neckbeard while scowling at people who play mania to get better and putting them down by saying they wouldn't last 2 second on *insert game that isn't mania* is just overly elitist imo. you dont play counter strike: go to get good at quake/unreal tournament for example, even though they are the same genre.
the auto-convert system is just so terrible for every mode, perhaps least so for ctb, but taiko is facepalm [lolmadmachine, loldrumrolls] and from what ive heard from mania players it's so bad that many don't even think they should give PP at all. sometimes i just think if a little more thought was put into the other modes before giving them ranking systems we'd be much better off.
Man I'm so glad I play standard, there's really no other game like it worth comparing it to so this kind of game-shaming never happens.
the auto-convert system is just so terrible for every mode, perhaps least so for ctb, but taiko is facepalm [lolmadmachine, loldrumrolls] and from what ive heard from mania players it's so bad that many don't even think they should give PP at all. sometimes i just think if a little more thought was put into the other modes before giving them ranking systems we'd be much better off.
Man I'm so glad I play standard, there's really no other game like it worth comparing it to so this kind of game-shaming never happens.
sorry you didn't get drace's pointRiince wrote:
i agree with drace people should just play another game if they want to experience this kind of rhythm game in the way its meant to be experienced...
Why are you apologizing to me?Agka wrote:
sorry you didn't get drace's pointRiince wrote:
i agree with drace people should just play another game if they want to experience this kind of rhythm game in the way its meant to be experienced...
never apologize for what you believe!
Topic Starter
I am trying to show people they aren't limited to choosing a single game.
I take the time to point out that every game has their own strong points.
I take the time to point out that every game has their own cons.
I take the time to show how specific mechanics influences your improvements greatly.
I point out how you can use ALL VSRGs to maximize your improvements.
I never once said something along the lines that osu is horrible and everyone should play something else.
Then people come talk about maps, peppy, auto-converts, ranking semantics, personal preferences, which game is generally "better", gamefeel, mapping, editors, SVs and on top of that they try to tell me to stop bashing osu!mania. All things that have nothing to do with this topic. And I can show you what a real bashing is if you want it so bad.
Hopefully the 6 sentence tl;dr isn't too much for those of you who couldn't understand. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over and only getting replies from people who completely miss the point.
I take the time to point out that every game has their own strong points.
I take the time to point out that every game has their own cons.
I take the time to show how specific mechanics influences your improvements greatly.
I point out how you can use ALL VSRGs to maximize your improvements.
I never once said something along the lines that osu is horrible and everyone should play something else.
Then people come talk about maps, peppy, auto-converts, ranking semantics, personal preferences, which game is generally "better", gamefeel, mapping, editors, SVs and on top of that they try to tell me to stop bashing osu!mania. All things that have nothing to do with this topic. And I can show you what a real bashing is if you want it so bad.
Hopefully the 6 sentence tl;dr isn't too much for those of you who couldn't understand. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over and only getting replies from people who completely miss the point.
SPOILER
Seems people just watches the video and read the first couple reactions then proceeds to assume they know what this thread is about. "Oh an other bashing thread, I don't need to read the posts to know what's going on". Well gee THANK YOU, maybe I shouldn't read yours either. But no I take the time to carefully read every single one of the posts. Cause I can't help but think that if you took the time to write it out, maybe it's worth a read.
I already had a low opinion of this community. The lack of respect required to take the time to understand what people are saying, or the lack of intelligence to comprehend what is being said (I really don't know which is going on here), is only making it worst.
I already had a low opinion of this community. The lack of respect required to take the time to understand what people are saying, or the lack of intelligence to comprehend what is being said (I really don't know which is going on here), is only making it worst.
i wonder how effective osumania would be if we turned player ability into a milestone system, something like where all of the songs are treated as hp9/10 to really test people rather then seeing how well they can spam, if we were able to create a system like this on a larger scale with more maps ready for ranked status then what is ready now and maybe create something that's like a build off from the 4sam and entozer difficulty tests I think osumania would work out a lot better. we do still need mechanics that punish spamming harder, ive seen long note songs in hp9 not providing much hp back at all, it cant be said that the long note aspect is too easy to stay alive in atm if the hp is put up and this system can be set to specific skills like your long note level may archieve higher then your slider velocity level tbh a milestone system needs to be divided up into key count: sv/ln/bms equivalent maps having their own separate milestone levels
Topic Starter
Such a system can indeed turn out to be interesting, but it will never happen here in mania. This is how the game is, and this is how it will be. Nothing will change, and nothing needs to change. Because mania is already a game of it's own and it already has it's own playerbase. There's no point in contemplating "changes".
I won't be surprised if future games will end up featuring such a system though. Something to look forward to.
I won't be surprised if future games will end up featuring such a system though. Something to look forward to.
Loctav says what everyone thinks ♥
Wtf is your point? Other rhythm games exist and we can play them too? Show me a single person that doesn't know that anything other than mania exists. And if you don't want me to comment on unrelated things, don't say unrelated things. This became a bashing thread the moment you criticized the lenient mania timing, because it changed the first post video from an innocent joke to toxic and sarcastic commentary. It's obvious people will see everything after that as more bashing. If you want to change the topic, make another thread.
Wtf is your point? Other rhythm games exist and we can play them too? Show me a single person that doesn't know that anything other than mania exists. And if you don't want me to comment on unrelated things, don't say unrelated things. This became a bashing thread the moment you criticized the lenient mania timing, because it changed the first post video from an innocent joke to toxic and sarcastic commentary. It's obvious people will see everything after that as more bashing. If you want to change the topic, make another thread.
Well, we can blame him for dropping .ogg, which basically killed 95% of keysounded maps, but that's another storyLoctav wrote:
The only thing you can blame peppy for is the hitsound rule, but thats an old and boring story now.
Topic Starter
Wow. I'm astounded that even the 6 sentence tl;dr wasn't simple enough.
6th time in a row failing to provide proper contribution to the discussion, what's your point. You just come here and talk without even knowing what were talking about. It’s like you don’t even want to know. You're just arguing what ever you can even if it doesn't make sense simply because you don't like how I pointed out a couple things. If you can't handle simple criticism on your favourite game, and amongst other games to top it off, you got no place in discussions that take all games into consideration. Because pros and cons are going to be thrown left and right.
I agree that not being able to deduce the topic from thread name and OP can prove to be complicated. But that didn't stop the majority from understanding.
Indeed, he barely read anything just like you. Be proud.Tear wrote:
Loctav says what everyone thinks ♥
Was swearing really necessary here?Tear wrote:
Wtf is your point?
Seriously at this point you're purposely missing the point for who knows why. You honestly think I'd waste my own time to say something so dumb? I’m talking about how we can use certain mechanics to maximize our overall improvement. How other mechanics enforces bad habits, aka deterioration. You said you don’t even care about improving, so this doesn’t even concern you. Yet you’re still here. Is your sole purpose here to troll?Tear wrote:
Other rhythm games exist and we can play them too? Show me a single person that doesn't know that anything other than mania exists.
Right since this whole time I wasn’t talking about gameplay mechanics and influences on overall improvement. Something that you never even touched upon yet. It doesn't mean that you were on-topic simply because you talked about the same elements I talked about. Example: I talked about player ranking vs milestones to show how it influences improvements with motivations and delusions. But then you go on saying something arbitrary like the purpose of PP isn’t for ranking people. With which I still find to be completely ridiculous, but it’s entirely off-topic and devoid of any point in this discussion. That goes for everything else you said too, you never once spoke about what influences player skill.Tear wrote:
And if you don't want me to comment on unrelated things, don't say unrelated things.
I pointed out pros and cons for every game. Just because I pointed out cons for osu first doesn't make it a bashing thread, it's you're own fault for not reading through. Don't get mad at me for your own incapabilities. You and Loctav were the only ones who came in thinking I was bashing. And Loctav most likely only thought so too since he skimmed through the thread and seen your own misinformed posts.Tear wrote:
This became a bashing thread the moment you criticized the lenient mania timing, because it changed the first post video from an innocent joke to toxic and sarcastic commentary. It's obviouspeopleI will see everything after that as more bashing. If you want to change the topic, make another thread.
6th time in a row failing to provide proper contribution to the discussion, what's your point. You just come here and talk without even knowing what were talking about. It’s like you don’t even want to know. You're just arguing what ever you can even if it doesn't make sense simply because you don't like how I pointed out a couple things. If you can't handle simple criticism on your favourite game, and amongst other games to top it off, you got no place in discussions that take all games into consideration. Because pros and cons are going to be thrown left and right.
I agree that not being able to deduce the topic from thread name and OP can prove to be complicated. But that didn't stop the majority from understanding.
Oh so criticism = bashing now? I guess that's osu forum logic.
And I don't see anyone agreeing with Loctav here other than you.
"Wtf is your point?"
This proves that you have nothing to contribute to this thread and is only merely here to troll by not reading other people's posts and making uneccesary comments to a constructive discussion. This started as a good discussion with few potential ideas for o!m in the future here and there. Stop trying to ruin it.
And I don't see anyone agreeing with Loctav here other than you.
"Wtf is your point?"
This proves that you have nothing to contribute to this thread and is only merely here to troll by not reading other people's posts and making uneccesary comments to a constructive discussion. This started as a good discussion with few potential ideas for o!m in the future here and there. Stop trying to ruin it.
I think this is a great discussion in all honesty, keep up the informative posts. While changes to o!m might not necessarily occur as a product of this thread, it's always great to have constructive posts about the game's positives and negatives in relation to other games in the genre, such as Lunatic Rave 2, o2mania, Stepmania, Flash Flash Revolution, etc.
I agree that not being able to deduce the topic from thread name and OP can prove to be complicated. But that didn't stop the majority from understanding.The topic is sarcastic. Nobody with good, friendly intentions uses sarcasm.
I agree with Drace 100% on this. Mania does need quite a few tweaks to its gameplay in many areas.
osu!mania is so fun with its community
Well actually after reading Drace's criticisms to osu!mania I have to say he's right on only some aspects. It is true that osu!mania's system is not very good for high-tier players like Drace, but the gameplay system is actually good for newbies (like me). It might as well be the case that osu!mania has lenient HP and lenient hit windows. But the good side to this is that newbies can actually play the maps while in more stringent systems, newbies might lose interest in the game since it is SO elite that no newbie can actually play.
And for the video, I am sure no newbie can pass an overjoy by spamming since I can't even stand one second in that map.
Therfore it is a sure fact that osu!mania has it's own pros and cons, and I hold the stance that osu!mania is in-fact better for newbies for improvement.
And for the video, I am sure no newbie can pass an overjoy by spamming since I can't even stand one second in that map.
Therfore it is a sure fact that osu!mania has it's own pros and cons, and I hold the stance that osu!mania is in-fact better for newbies for improvement.
Regardless of which game you play, improvement requires effort. You can't just play things that are relaxing or things you can do well on already and expect to improve. Since osu!mania offers a more lenient set of timing windows and health drain it will feel less intimidating to newbies and may retain newer players longer, but only a few of these players are likely willing to put in the sort of effort to really improve properly, and would have dropped other games. This means that osu!mania will provide a sort of safe haven for players unwilling to put in the sort of effort that would drive them away from other VSRGs.
To be honest, because of this I feel like it's even more important to see more high difficulty maps (in every key mode) available because osu!mania will inherently attract casual players, but lacks in features to attract the more skilled players.
To be honest, because of this I feel like it's even more important to see more high difficulty maps (in every key mode) available because osu!mania will inherently attract casual players, but lacks in features to attract the more skilled players.
dennischan wrote:
Well actually after reading Drace's criticisms to osu!mania I have to say he's right on only some aspects. It is true that osu!mania's system is not very good for high-tier players like Drace, but the gameplay system is actually good for newbies (like me). It might as well be the case that osu!mania has lenient HP and lenient hit windows. But the good side to this is that newbies can actually play the maps while in more stringent systems, newbies might lose interest in the game since it is SO elite that no newbie can actually play.
And for the video, I am sure no newbie can pass an overjoy by spamming since I can't even stand one second in that map.
Therfore it is a sure fact that osu!mania has it's own pros and cons, and I hold the stance that osu!mania is in-fact better for newbies for improvement.
Well, time to pack bags and go to LR2/o2jam 
Also, it's very strange that there still aren't any ranked songs to satisfy the players that play the hardest ranked songs near perfection, this makes it pretty annoying to rank high for the top-level players. It'd probably make a big difference in rankings if ET songs would get ranked. Difficult song clears>high accuracy
Also, it's very strange that there still aren't any ranked songs to satisfy the players that play the hardest ranked songs near perfection, this makes it pretty annoying to rank high for the top-level players. It'd probably make a big difference in rankings if ET songs would get ranked. Difficult song clears>high accuracy
Too bad most newbies end up only playing shitty auto-converts because they don't know betterdennischan wrote:
Therfore it is a sure fact that osu!mania has it's own pros and cons, and I hold the stance that osu!mania is in-fact better for newbies for improvement.
The better they get the more they'll want out of o!m than just autoconverts, at least that's how it happened to me.HankSpank wrote:
Too bad most newbies end up only playing shitty auto-converts because they don't know better
I grinded a few select autoconvert songs and after I started really trying out the mania specific maps (along with DJMAX grinding lol) I can't stand playing autoconverts anymore.
Newbies just need a little encouragement to try real mania maps, even if they can't really tell the difference between them and autoconverts yet.
I'm far from being decent but even I can see that we need harder maps cause watching mwc is kinda sad when most maps are unranked.HankSpank wrote:
Well, time to pack bags and go to LR2/o2jam
Also, it's very strange that there still aren't any ranked songs to satisfy the players that play the hardest ranked songs near perfection, this makes it pretty annoying to rank high for the top-level players. It'd probably make a big difference in rankings if ET songs would get ranked. Difficult song clears>high accuracy
and/or SM =^)HankSpank wrote:
Well, time to pack bags and go to LR2/o2jam
Alright, so let's imagine one day that a new mod for osu!mania was implemented, called Hard Mode or something. What would we put into this mod? Here's what I'm thinking:
Very slight (1-2 frame long) releases of long notes will be allowed for no score loss, but otherwise a miss will be awarded. A miss will also be awarded if the tap part of a long note is missed. No more 50 points for hitting long notes whenever.
If you keep holding a long note past the end, it will not cut off as it does now and award 100 points. It will go to 50, and then to miss if you continue holding it.
There is a penalty for hitting notes that aren't there. This will count as a miss, and the song will be treated as if it had one extra note. This penalty doesn't apply before the start of all notes, after the end of all notes, or within a 1+ second gap of no notes.
Scoring 100 points on a short or long note will break your combo, but won't deduct hp.
Scoring 50 points on a short or long note will break your combo, and deduct 5/6 (83.3%) of the hp a miss would deduct.
What would you add or remove from this?
Very slight (1-2 frame long) releases of long notes will be allowed for no score loss, but otherwise a miss will be awarded. A miss will also be awarded if the tap part of a long note is missed. No more 50 points for hitting long notes whenever.
If you keep holding a long note past the end, it will not cut off as it does now and award 100 points. It will go to 50, and then to miss if you continue holding it.
There is a penalty for hitting notes that aren't there. This will count as a miss, and the song will be treated as if it had one extra note. This penalty doesn't apply before the start of all notes, after the end of all notes, or within a 1+ second gap of no notes.
Scoring 100 points on a short or long note will break your combo, but won't deduct hp.
Scoring 50 points on a short or long note will break your combo, and deduct 5/6 (83.3%) of the hp a miss would deduct.
What would you add or remove from this?
I don't like idea of breaking on 50/100 and I'd make judgement on normal notes harder including rainbow 300's. Then I would only play hard mode
If it was added, I would prefer it would be a beatmap switch instead of a selectable mod (so mappers have to decide between the spam-friendly mechanics and the new ones).Blaizer wrote:
Alright, so let's imagine one day that a new mod for osu!mania was implemented, called Hard Mode or something. What would we put into this mod? Here's what I'm thinking:
Very slight (1-2 frame long) releases of long notes will be allowed for no score loss, but otherwise a miss will be awarded. A miss will also be awarded if the tap part of a long note is missed. No more 50 points for hitting long notes whenever.
If you keep holding a long note past the end, it will not cut off as it does now and award 100 points. It will go to 50, and then to miss if you continue holding it.
There is a penalty for hitting notes that aren't there. This will count as a miss, and the song will be treated as if it had one extra note. This penalty doesn't apply before the start of all notes, after the end of all notes, or within a 1+ second gap of no notes.
Scoring 100 points on a short or long note will break your combo, but won't deduct hp.
Scoring 50 points on a short or long note will break your combo, and deduct 5/6 (83.3%) of the hp a miss would deduct.
What would you add or remove from this?
For Long Notes, I would prefer making them simpler (no special judgments for special situations). Each long note has a pressing timing and releasing timing window: The moment you start holding the note it takes your pressing hit error in milliseconds, and when you release the key it considers that moment as the note release. Then both timings get averaged and the game gives a judgment based on the OD table.
Examples:
- The player starts holding the note 7ms earlier than perfect timing, the releases 20ms late. (7+20)/2 = 13.5ms which is a 300g according to the OD table.
- The player starts holding 100ms late, then it releases 2ms late. 51ms which is a 200 unless the OD is low.
- The player starts holding 2ms early, then accidentally releases 1 second early. 501ms which is a MISS (shown on the screen the moment the player released)
- The player starts holding 400ms early, then releases 0ms late. 200ms which is a MISS.
- The player starts holding 200ms early, then releases 0ms late. 100ms which is a 200 or 100 depending on OD.
Make the "MISS" timing window for early presses much bigger (for example, 1000ms and independent of OD), and give a MISS if the player hits a note in that time window.
The beatmap switch is a good idea. I like it.
I'm not too sure increasing the window of miss would work too well. You'd accidentally miss a note that wasn't even on the screen, then when that note comes on screen you try to hit it again, and end up getting a miss for the note that's after that and so on. I know you're going for simplicity, but it just isn't going to work here. Instead you should be punished, but still able to hit the next note.
The hold thing seems good on paper, but in practice it's not that good. You have more precise control over pressing a button down than releasing it. The thing that you have the most control over should be what's most emphasized for scoring.
So the timing window for releasing a long note should be less strict than for pressing it. In exchange, the release of a long note should never improve your score for the long note. If you press with 320 accuracy and release with 320 accuracy, you get 320. If you press with 320 accuracy and release with 200 accuracy, you get 200. If you press with 200 accuracy and release with 320 accuracy, you get 200.
This also keeps the mindset of the player in the right place. With the averaging thing, you're encouraging players to think "oh crap I hit that badly better release it exactly on time to get the best score from it". With the emphasis on hitting the start of the long note instead, you're encouraging players to always hit the notes at the right time, and stay in beat with the song.
I'm not too sure increasing the window of miss would work too well. You'd accidentally miss a note that wasn't even on the screen, then when that note comes on screen you try to hit it again, and end up getting a miss for the note that's after that and so on. I know you're going for simplicity, but it just isn't going to work here. Instead you should be punished, but still able to hit the next note.
The hold thing seems good on paper, but in practice it's not that good. You have more precise control over pressing a button down than releasing it. The thing that you have the most control over should be what's most emphasized for scoring.
So the timing window for releasing a long note should be less strict than for pressing it. In exchange, the release of a long note should never improve your score for the long note. If you press with 320 accuracy and release with 320 accuracy, you get 320. If you press with 320 accuracy and release with 200 accuracy, you get 200. If you press with 200 accuracy and release with 320 accuracy, you get 200.
This also keeps the mindset of the player in the right place. With the averaging thing, you're encouraging players to think "oh crap I hit that badly better release it exactly on time to get the best score from it". With the emphasis on hitting the start of the long note instead, you're encouraging players to always hit the notes at the right time, and stay in beat with the song.
Your combo (specifically, that number with the X after it at the top of the playfield) doesn't affect your score whatsoever (look up osu!mania scoring if you don't believe me). So breaking your combo is just a visual thing. We could even add combo breaks on 50 in the current osu!mania and it wouldn't change anything (except give you a bit better feedback on doing badly).-Kamikaze- wrote:
I don't like idea of breaking on 50/100 and I'd make judgement on normal notes harder including rainbow 300's. Then I would only play hard mode
Yeah it's just visual, but that's the thing that annoys me in SM - that I lose combo when I get "Good" judgement. I don't mind breaking at 50, becuase that's literally almost hitting, but breaking at 100's will be annoying especially with forced hold releaseBlaizer wrote:
Your combo (specifically, that number with the X after it at the top of the playfield) doesn't affect your score whatsoever (look up osu!mania scoring if you don't believe me). So breaking your combo is just a visual thing. We could even add combo breaks on 50 in the current osu!mania and it wouldn't change anything (except give you a bit better feedback on doing badly).
For avoiding that situation, the note disappears from the chart as soon as you miss it.Blaizer wrote:
I'm not too sure increasing the window of miss would work too well. You'd accidentally miss a note that wasn't even on the screen, then when that note comes on screen you try to hit it again, and end up getting a miss for the note that's after that and so on. I know you're going for simplicity, but it just isn't going to work here. Instead you should be punished, but still able to hit the next note.
For that, it could be something like this:Blaizer wrote:
So the timing window for releasing a long note should be less strict than for pressing it. In exchange, the release of a long note should never improve your score for the long note. If you press with 320 accuracy and release with 320 accuracy, you get 320. If you press with 320 accuracy and release with 200 accuracy, you get 200. If you press with 200 accuracy and release with 320 accuracy, you get 200.
This also keeps the mindset of the player in the right place. With the averaging thing, you're encouraging players to think "oh crap I hit that badly better release it exactly on time to get the best score from it". With the emphasis on hitting the start of the long note instead, you're encouraging players to always hit the notes at the right time, and stay in beat with the song.
Both hitting and releasing have a timing window (each giving a sub-judgment), and the judgment given for the hold note is the worst of both sub-judgments. The timing window for hitting is slightly more lenient than the timing windows for short notes, and the timing window for releasing is even more lenient than the timing window for hitting.
Topic Starter
It's nice to contemplate what mechanics would be ideal but you gotta keep in mind that nothing as fundamental as core mechanics will or needs to change. Osu!mania already established itself for what it is.
Instead these ideas should be discussed for the other games currently in development. They're actively looking for help and ideas.
to name a few:
Raindrop
Malody
LostWave
etcetc
Instead these ideas should be discussed for the other games currently in development. They're actively looking for help and ideas.
to name a few:
Raindrop
Malody
LostWave
etcetc
I'm actually going to agree with Drace here.
Peppy has said he plans to work on mania, however, I'm fairly confident in saying he's not looking to make changes to the core mechanics of mania. Any change in the core mechanics requires a complete reset of the scoreboards for every song. This is because any change to the core mechanics changes the value of a given score. If the core mechanics make it harder to achieve high scores, then pre-existing high scores would be worth more than they used to be. This kind of complete reset would upset a lot of people, and goes against the level of consistency that peppy wants. Any changes to mania in the future are likely only to be polishing the editor, code cleanup, and other minor changes.
Peppy has said he plans to work on mania, however, I'm fairly confident in saying he's not looking to make changes to the core mechanics of mania. Any change in the core mechanics requires a complete reset of the scoreboards for every song. This is because any change to the core mechanics changes the value of a given score. If the core mechanics make it harder to achieve high scores, then pre-existing high scores would be worth more than they used to be. This kind of complete reset would upset a lot of people, and goes against the level of consistency that peppy wants. Any changes to mania in the future are likely only to be polishing the editor, code cleanup, and other minor changes.
wtf did i just watch? xD
Not if it's a mod, or a beatmap-specific switch. Then all new or updated maps could just use the new scoring without impacting any of the existing stuff.Bobbias wrote:
I'm actually going to agree with Drace here.
Peppy has said he plans to work on mania, however, I'm fairly confident in saying he's not looking to make changes to the core mechanics of mania. Any change in the core mechanics requires a complete reset of the scoreboards for every song. This is because any change to the core mechanics changes the value of a given score. If the core mechanics make it harder to achieve high scores, then pre-existing high scores would be worth more than they used to be. This kind of complete reset would upset a lot of people, and goes against the level of consistency that peppy wants. Any changes to mania in the future are likely only to be polishing the editor, code cleanup, and other minor changes.
That would destroy already ranked maps, because they'd have broken mechanics while new ones would not. It's just unfair.Blaizer wrote:
Not if it's a mod, or a beatmap-specific switch. Then all new or updated maps could just use the new scoring without impacting any of the existing stuff.
@Blaizer : Then we would require two separate leaderboards with the existing one becoming obsolete, which is unlikely to happen especially if it's a new one solely existing because of a mod. I say osu!mania's mechanics are already set in stone. Lately I've been using osu! only because the editor is easy to use, a lot less for actually playing (although I do because I need to check what other mappers do every month).