Drace wrote:

You "can" get a friend (with a good sense of beat) that never played any VSRGs before and he'll be able to clear overjoys using this technic on day 1.

The people who are serious about developing their VSRG skills, the true enthusiasts amoungst you, should really take a moment to think about this.

So yeah that's exactly my thoughts. Though no one is whining. Everyone knows nothing's gonna change so they just enjoy ridiculing it. Both mania players and people from the outside. They've come to terms with it.

I read posts and comment and all I see are people laughing and finding this hilarious, people enjoying themselves. The only way someone can get insulted by this or believe this is negative attitude is if they know this is true and they don't like it. There's no innate negative attitude here, it's all for the amusement with a couple things to learn on the side.

Tear wrote:

So osu!mania is more about hitting objects at all rather than accurately. What's wrong with shifting focus somewhere else? Should all games be identical?

Honestly if you're fine with new players spam clearing overjoys then we live in completely different worlds. I know I like to be proud of my clears and achievements, not have them be shat on like I did here.

Like mentioned earlier this only affects people serious about developing their playing skills. This doesn't stop people from enjoying the game casually, this doesn't stop people from enjoying the social aspects of this game, this doesn't stop mappers from sharing their creations. If such ridiculous thread motivated anyone to quit for other games, they were going to quit sooner or later anyways and just needed a little push.

Drace wrote:

I know I like to be proud of my clears and achievements, not have them be shat on like I did here.

Like mentioned earlier this only affects people serious about developing their playing skills.

Honestly, I feel like anyone who says they care about improving, but measures themselves against arbitrary achievements (like the Dan system) or other players (like the ranking system here) is on some level lying. If you're truly interested in becoming better at the game purely for the sake of improving, then all the only person you should need to compare scores to is yourself. Of course, if all you care about is being better than other people, then you've got your skill tiers and ranking systems and your videos and screenshots where you can brag all you like as long as you remember that those systems are not without their flaws.

A pass or fail is only as important as you decide it is. If I pass some crazy level 60+ o2jam chart with OD5 HP5, sure, I'm nowhere near being able to pass that in o2jam, but it's still an accomplishment if I've never passed that thing before. It's still an accomplishment if it makes my last personal best look like a joke in comparison. It's still an accomplishment if I didn't think I would be able to accomplish it when I started playing the song. Sure, maybe that score will end up just another awful score in a VERY long list of awful scores sometime in the future, whereas getting a high rank on something here will last longer in the eyes of the community, but I don't think it makes that score any more special than a truly awful pass on something you didn't expect to pass, or an uncharacteristically high accuracy on something you usually have trouble on.

Also:

Drace wrote:

People look for clears, not scores.

Funny that in order to be anywhere on a top rank list here you need incredibly high accuracy more than anything else. Osu's system still favors people SSing easy shit over barely passing something actually hard (to a degree anyway, it's better now that tom's new difficulty calculations are in use, but still far from perfect.)

The dan system is anything but an arbitrary system. It's potentially perfection in measuring skill on a universal level. Not only due to how it's a pure and simple milestone players strive for and achieve with no convoluted system such as this PP here behind it. You clear it or you don't. And to top it off you can make multiple dan scales to cover different areas of skills. You don't get anything more simple, straightforward and efficient than global milestones. It's not about being better than others, it's about having goals everyone strive for together. It's the exact same thing as personal goal, except they're global.

And yes of course everything becomes relative. Your achievements, your skills and your goals all become relative to the game itself. But when deciding what game people should play on a competitive, end game level. Those arguments become superfluous since they can be said for any game. All you're basically doing is coming with explanations on how people come to tolerate the for-mentioned shortcomings, indirectly agreeing that there "are" shortcomings that makes mania inferior to other games.

These things I denote as shortcomings aren't derived from comparisons with other games. It's just objectional observations.

Long notes:

Normal notes:

Clearing / HP bar / Score

Here's a story since I'm bored

No but in all honesty, there's no way you can honestly believe mania plays LNs better than o2jam or single notes better than LR2. But here's the catch. LR2 longnotes are quite crappy, and o2jam's single notes are also quite crappy. Currently there's no games out there currently capable of calling itself a game with mechanics brilliant enough to challenge every area of skill the most efficiently as a possible. But there are games that can call themselves the best in specific fields. Where o2jam reigns over longnotes and LR2 reigns over control/precision. I'd say mania reigns over spamming (and maybe accuracy for those 1'000'000 score farmers, but very few do that). So hey if spamming is the skill you value the most then mania might actually be the best game out there for you.

For me, I'll jump from game to game depending on what skills I want to train. I'm not bound to any single game nor do I feel the need to defend any of them. There's things I hate and things I love in all of them, and I use all of them to my advantage. Seems to be the logical thing to do.

I stopped playing osu!mania because of this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex1z52Gs088

Following the post regarding Drace's story...
his plays are seen "amazing" on osu but he's a well known cheater in lr2.
It's really funny how exact same plays are seen so differently in 2 similar rhythm games.

And I'll never forgive osu!mania for giving birth to a cheater that messed up the whole lr2 system.

-Hazelnut wrote:

I stopped playing osu!mania because of this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex1z52Gs088

Following the post regarding Drace's story...
his plays are seen "amazing" on osu but he's a well known cheater in lr2.
It's really funny how exact same plays are seen so differently in 2 similar rhythm games.

And I'll never forgive osu!mania for giving birth to a cheater that messed up the whole lr2 system.

What do you play now? LR2?

I play volumax

i see where drace is getting at, it is kind of creating bad habits however several of us players are accuracy players and will focus more on getting at least a rank s before moving onto a different song, its not as bad here i think still to improve this issue they should create a punishment, hp drain for people hitting notes that dont exist like hitting 1,2,3,4 when the note only says 1,2,4 it should be counted as a miss and i can definetly agree there. regarding long notes i dont have enough experience to comment on how or how not this should be done

Drace wrote:

The dan system is anything but an arbitrary system. It's perfection in measuring skill on a universal level. Not only due to how it's a pure and simple milestone players strive for and achieve with no convoluted system such as this PP here behind it. You clear it or you don't. And to top it off you can make multiple dan scales to cover different areas of skills. You don't get anything more simple, straightforward and efficient than global milestones. It's not about being better than others, it's about having goals everyone strive for together. It's the exact same thing as personal goal, except they're global.

I will retract my ststement that the Dan system is arbitrary, because it HAS been given thought. And I will grant that the Dan system has some advantages such as having binary mutually exclusive states (pass, or fail).

However, I cannot believe that the song choices are anything close to 'perfect'. In order to be perfect, you would have to be able to clearly break ingame skill down into a known set of individual skills with songs chosen with very exact properties to test each of those skills in a comparable fashion. Note: I'm not saying each Dan would cover every skill or anything, I just mean that in general, whether a dan is meant to test all skills, or focus on one specific skill, there needs to be a lot more knowledge of just how demanding everything is in a way that is generalized for all players, and not just the result of anecdotal evidence. As far as I'm aware nobody has actually come up with a legitimate way to measure the difficulty of charts in a scientifically proven and accurate way, meaning that at the very least, the system is still flawed because we lack the knowledge to create a truly correct system.

And yes, I'm aware that I'm referring to a purely academic and theoretic view of things, but design is nothing if not the application of theory. I never once said the dan system was as bad as mania, but it is still based on anecdotal evidence.

Another thing I believe you are missing: just because the mechanics of a game encourage a certain way of playing it does not meant people must conform to that pressure. I myself am a perfect example of someone who treats mania very differently than the mechanics suggest it should be treated. I don't pay much attention to rank beyond occasionally glancing at it due to it's particularly visible location. I have laughably few ranked plays given the amount of time I've spent actually playing the game. I neither play autoconverts nor grind attempts at ranked maps just to improve my score some small amount. I focus in finding maps that i find physically fun to play and which I hope will prove good practice at the same time. Nothing more, nothing less.

While game mechanics such as how the LNs work mean that players are not terribly penalized for mistakes, there will never be a case where intentionally releasing a LN and then hitting it again will result in a better score than holding it and releasing properly at the correct time (not including issues related to hardware).

A perfectly played LN is the same in mania as it is in o2jam. While o2jam provides a system which punishes the player much more for mistakes, that doesn't mean that the mechanics directly improve the player. At best they provide more incentive for the player to try harder, or to focus more on correctly hitting LNs. But that doesn't mean the player couldn't get just as good by applying themselves while playing mania instead.

It's about mindset. If you truly want to get better, it doesn't matter which game you practice on, provided that you have access to the appropriate difficulty of map.

If you only play a game based on what the game's mechanics suggest, you aren't truly playing to improve, you're playing to reach some arbitrary milestone set out by the game/other people.

what skin is this

nat2011 wrote:

what skin is this

get out

Your behavior is the game's fault
Whatever

I agree the song choices in the dan system could be better, but I was specifically talking about the system, how it works, and what it can potentially become. Comparing to the PP system, no matter how perfect it becomes, you cannot list players in order of skill. It simply doesn't work out that way. At least with dans, the perfect songlists (note the plural) leads to a perfect system. Plus they don't need to be perfectly spaced out evenly in difficulty, just something relatively correct is enough to form a ladder people enjoy climbing. And there's also more than 1 scale, there's douzens.

You can "think" you do your LNs perfectly and you can "think" you don't spam your single notes, but in reality there is no way for you to "know" if your plays are played as well as you think they are. Even a high S can be full of mistakes. Without proper punishing, there's nothing to hit your motor reflexes with "that's wrong" and you keep training with them thinking "that's right". No matter what your mindset is, you are and you will develop bad habits if the mechanics don't punish what is "bad". It's inevitable, no amount of wishful thinking can prevent it. Proof is nearly all o2jam or LR2 players that come here, then later go back, whine about being worst than before due to the bad habits they picked up.
Even Entozer received comments about having lost some skill after playing osu.

Score, score, score.

Please. Scoring is broken and you know it. Is that the medium you use to measure your improvements? Is that the medium you potentially want to be measuring your improvements with?

And all the mess-ups you can do barely, if not doesn't, affects your chances in clearing. Sure you can play a game with a different mindset than the mechanics suggests, many do that. But those are also the first people to quit. It's much better to take your mindset to where it belongs, play with people who think like you, and stop being the black sheep in a community you don't belong in.

There is no positive outcome in treating mania as something it's not. None. It's just means to deceive yourself. Once more it's just means you use to overcome this game's shortcomings, you would't have to do so if the game didn't have said shortcomings to begin with.

Look, it's nice and all that you try to be loyal to the game you decided to call home. But there's nothing you can say to show how osu!'s gameplay mechanics are superior to others. That's because they're in fact inferior and you agreed to this notion multiple times already. Saying things about how you circumvent the issues does nothing but enforce my arguments. "Oh osu! is great if you ignore everything that makes it osu! and pretend you're playing o2jam". This is by no means an argument that helps show that osu! is a game worthy for a VSRG enthusiast's library. This is rather the argument for a osu! player who's not interested in trying other games and is coming up with excuses to stay. It sounds more like you're trying to convince yourself rather than everyone else.

You're free to keep playing here, not like someone meaningless like me has any say in the matter. Like I said earlier, I encouraged everyone to play w/e they want but keep an eye out for a potential worthy VSRGs that (will) pop up eventually. But please don't try to convince people osu! is "better" with simple play on words (I know you're not, but it will lead up to that if we keep this up). It's playable and that's about it. It's far from wearing the title of "best" for any gameplay-related categories over it's head and everyone knows it never will. No one needs misleading.

Tear wrote:

Your behavior is the game's fault
Whatever

Who's behavior, what game. If we're talking about behavioral problems osu's community takes the cake any day, even over FTB. Don't forget every guide and most helpful people on here came from these other games. They tried their best to build this game up. Only to get betrayed despite their efforts. They weren't "fanboys" refusing to acknowledge the downfalls of their home games. They weren't people who decided to stay in a game indefinitely for no other reason than it's the game they chose. Most were thrilled and curious to see this new VSRG that popped up. They did their best to help out, but in the end it turned out it wasn't worth their time.

Who's behavior, what game.

I meant the cheating thing

Comparing to the PP system, no matter how perfect it becomes, you cannot list players in order of skill.

Who said pp is supposed to be a measure of skill? Nobody thinks it's possible to make an objective leaderboard. pp is for competition. Following your logic, should tournaments be banned too?

It's much better to take your mindset to where it belongs, play with people who think like you, and stop being the black sheep in a community you don't belong in.

My mindset: I enjoy pushing buttons to music. I don't care about how well I do or what my skill is, I only want to be skilled enough to play most ranked maps. I also enjoy mapping my favorite songs quite a bit, especially using heavy but sightreadable SV changes.
Where else do I belong?

Tear you're completely off-topic with the arguments that took place here. Bobbias' arguments were well-purposed, critical and on-topic. But I can't even grasp what you're trying to prove when none of your arguments are necessarily pro-osu. You're just rambling on hoping something works. But I guess that's how the minds of fanboys work, refusing to see flaws in their game and refusing to see pros in others.

Tear wrote:

Who said pp is supposed to be a measure of skill? Nobody thinks it's possible to make an objective leaderboard. pp is for competition. Following your logic, should tournaments be banned too?

The difference is blatantly obvious, the tournaments don't need to have the same participants, the same winners nor the same focus. It doesn't "list" players. It's a one time winner instead of a list shoved in the face of all the new players screaming: "look! he's #1". Rank is rank, it's indeed purposed to list players in order of skill, don't try to say otherwise.

Tear wrote:

My mindset: I enjoy pushing buttons to music. I don't care about how well I do or what my skill is, I only want to be skilled enough to play most ranked maps. I also enjoy mapping my favorite songs quite a bit, especially using heavy but sightreadable SV changes.
Where else do I belong?

That was aimed to Bobbias and his comments on treating the game for something it's not. If you had decent reading skills you'd see with the particles I used that the section was directed to him personally. Plus, I clearly said I encouraged everyone to play what they want MULTIPLE times.

Also, I got to point out nothing in what you said is done better in osu. Every VSRG pushes buttons to music, you don't need to care about your skill in any VSRG, you can map your favorite songs in any VSRG, and you can use SCs in any VSRG. And no osu's editor isn't the best SC editor, it's a very clunky workaround due to simply being a modded version of the standard editor. It works fine, yes, it works better than some, yes, but it's not the best and it will never become the best. On the otherhand a new game popping up with a nearly perfect editor is still a possibility.

You failed to note osu's strongest point, but I'll save you the trouble and point it out for you. Since you know, my goal isn't to protect nor demolish any games, just to set facts straight. Osu's beatmap publishing and sharing system (except the ranking system). Click of a button and bam, the map is ready to be shared with hundreds.

But even that is irrelevant to this argument since I'm talking about pure and simple gameplay mechanics here, nothing else. I'm talking about people who wants and cares about developing their skills in the most optimal environments. You just said you don't care. So what's your point then? Don't like people pointing out the shortcomings of your favorite game and rather they stay hidden? If you can't manage to see further than the tip of your nose in these matters then there's no way I consider you a VSRG enthusiast. A person who enjoys all VSRGs for what they are. Stop acting like a butt-hurt osu fanboy. Why not broaden your horizons instead of limiting yourself to a single game acting like it's best thing ever.

So will you post more irrelevant things about how you don't care in this topic, or are you gonna enlighten me with these non-existing facts about how osu is better for developing your skills? How osu "can work out" doesn't make the cut here.

Drace Double Kill
Drace is now Dominating!

Drace wrote:

I agree the song choices in the dan system could be better, but I was specifically talking about the system, how it works, and what it can potentially become. Comparing to the PP system, no matter how perfect it becomes, you cannot list players in order of skill. It simply doesn't work out that way. At least with dans, the perfect songlists (note the plural) leads to a perfect system. Plus they don't need to be perfectly spaced out evenly in difficulty, just something relatively correct is enough to form a ladder people enjoy climbing. And there's also more than 1 scale, there's douzens.

I'm still of the opinion that those sort of systems are ultimately superfluous and unnecessary, but yes, the dan system is definitely better than what osu provides. I still see no real point in something like the dan system given that skill is so fluid, and any and all achievements are ultimately relative anyway.

Drace wrote:

Score, score, score.

Please. Scoring is broken and you know it. Is that the medium you use to measure your improvements? Is that the medium you potentially want to be measuring your improvements with?

Score, and even the actual counts for each judgement are not objective gameplay data, but are derived from a small set of objective data (specifically, the exact timing for each keypress). Ultimately any data derived from this is not as useful as the raw data itself when it comes to measuring improvement. Distilling your performance down to a single "score" will never be suited to accurately measuring skill. Too much information is lost. Osu does provide both the unstable rate as well as the timing bar, which are particularly useful for measuring performance (even if the numbers for the unstable rate are useless for anything but simple comparisons).

Drace wrote:

That's because they're in fact inferior and you agreed to this notion multiple times already. Saying things about how you circumvent the issues does nothing but enforce my arguments.

My argument is that by and large those flaws do not necessitate playing a different game to get 'good'. I'll admit that Osu is not the ideal game for competitive high level VSRG competition or anything of that nature. My objection to your comments has generally been because you are effectively telling players 'you can't get good playing osu'. You can get 'good'. The only time the difference in mechanics is likely to become relevant is at the highest skill levels (and I'd wager that 90+% of the people at that skill level are already aware of other games right now.)

The fact that your advice to go play other games has been directed at anyone, rather than those players at the sort of skill level that these things actually matter is what bothers me most about it. I don't have a problem with suggesting that there are other games in general, just with the premise of "if you care about skill, you should play something else".

You know I'm well aware of the flaws in osu (better than most people do, I would think, considering how much we've discussed them), my problem has mostly been with the attitude you bring whenever you post on the forums. I've gotten sick of seeing negative posts about osu which, while generally true in terms of critical content, have little to no positive contribution to the situation. I'm effectively saying "If you don't have something nice (or useful) to say, just don't say it". And it's not because I disagree with the criticism, but that I, like many people, have come to the conclusion that whining about it isn't going to change anything. I just don't want to see it any more. Not to mention that it's not hard to start a flame war or other ridiculous drama by posting negative things like that. I've been browsing the web for long enough that I've gotten thoroughly sick of flamewars and bullshit drama online.

Drace wrote:

Tear wrote:

Your behavior is the game's fault
Whatever

Who's behavior, what game.

Pretty sure Tear just didn't understand your little story time segment.

Thanks for staying on point and civil about things. I might disagree with you on some stuff, but that's just a difference of opinion. Not like there's any scientific data to back either of us up on the majority of this anyway (and if there is, I'd love to see it).

EDIT: and if peppy by chance sees this, please don't lock this thread. Drace and I are having a legitimate civil discussion.

But I can't even grasp what you're trying to prove when none of your arguments are necessarily pro-osu.

That's because I'm not a fanboy, and I'm explaining that osu! is the best VSRG for me, not the best VSRG ever (which doesn't exist, because it's subjective). I'm essentially proving that you can't objectively call a game worse than another one. osu! editor is the best FOR ME at the moment, because it has features I care about that other editors don't and the features it's lacking are the ones I don't care about. If there's either a game or an editor that's better for me, please tell.

Rank is rank, it's indeed purposed to list players in order of skill, don't try to say otherwise.

No, that's not its purpose.

Drace is not civil, it's quite a challenge to weed out his arguments from the insults. Please lock this thread. Bobbias can continue his conversation via PM.

Tear wrote:

Drace is not civil, it's quite a challenge to weed out his arguments from the insults. Please lock this thread. Bobbias can continue his conversation via PM.

It's not hard to tell his arguments from his insults (which could be done without but that's none of my business), the thread is fine as it is.

Drace and bobbias are perfectly being civil. They are providing strong arguments with examples and their personal experiences to back their arguments. He's "insulting" you because you're trying to butt in his conversation with bobbias by not staying on topic and giving unnecessary comments.

The thread doesn't need to be locked.

Tear, I never once called a game worse than others, you didn't even read anything I posted did you. That's maybe why you're off-topic, you don't even understand what is being discussed here.

The only reason I "weeded" negative attitude in my replies towards him, is do to how I took his lack of thought in his own reply as an insult. All he did was mindlessly deny a handful of the less meaningful statements without even properly elaborating why. I'm merely sending the same negative attitude and lack of respect back to him but channeled in a different matter. Plus he still managed to make an other post completely off-topic so I'll just ignore him now.

---

Bobbias, if we go back to my very first statement. All I said was "the true enthusiasts amoungst you should take time to consider this". And this does refer to the top percentile of players. This only escalated after Tear asked me a question, it was only right for me to answer it. But once more I'd like to stress that no one here whining. This was never intended to spread negative attitude, and I don't believe it did. It was just to raise awareness in a comical matter. Not everyone is aware of the gimmicks in osu and I don't think there's any reason for them not to know.

And I mostly agree with everything else, but I still believe the generalized "if you care about your skill" is best. If the end goal is to "be good at VSRGs", why not just start playing all of them on the get-go. Instead of playing osu exclusively, picking up bad habits, then having to work to overcome them. And I can't see why proper punishing is better for improvement at higher levels than lower levels. Everyone profits from optimal mechanics.

I don't really want to get out of line here, but it's kind of hard to make the statements you're making when you barely played games other than osu after taking rhythm gaming a little more seriously. From my end, most people who opens up and starts playing everything never looks back. Only people who go back to being an exclusive osu player are the ones who believed the other games were too hard, too different or aren't dedicated enough to go through troublesome procedures to get things set up. Of course an other downfall of o2 and lr2.

The biggest point I've been trying to push forward here, since this stopped being a joke and became a discussion, is there is no game best for everything at this very moment. But every game can be considered the best at certain things. Being able to see the pros and the cons of every game, and using all of the games to your advantage is by no doubt the best road to quick improvement.

-Hazelnut wrote:

He's "insulting" you because you're trying to butt in his conversation with bobbias by not staying on topic and giving unnecessary comments.

Forums are not a place for a conversation between two people. If you don't want comments from bystanders, go somewhere else.

I love how you all blame peppy for making osu!mania to be super lenient and the maps not being challenging enough.

Per se, nothing on mania has been changed since woc created it. Any blame you put on peppy is actually a blame you put on woc, your overly worshipped random chinese coder, who basically only submitted broken code all over the place (see: osu!mania editor). The only thing you can blame peppy for is the hitsound rule, but thats an old and boring story now.

You are also whining because this game is not for hardcorers? That's ridiculous, you just failed to map proper hardcore maps so far. I can understand that here is a portion of people who got used to the bullcrap released on the arcade machines, where the map is optional to the actual song, and the map is only trying to make you rape the buttons harder, whereas you could simply turn off the mp3. You know it is a bit like that. You try to make osu! look like a game that tries to run off the rank of your beloved lunatic rave 2 or o2mania or stepmania, but well. osu! is not an arcade machine. osu! is an emulator like lr2 or o2mania. the difference in lr2 and o2mania: there is no moderation or gatekeeping, every bullshit map is available and playable. Well, this is also happening here. But unless of hyping the bullshit, it usually does simply not get ranked and therefore you call stuff lacking here.

Once in a lifetime, stop complaining. This thread is so pointless. I can not stand this arbitrary and superficial comments anymore. No one will stop you playing lr2, like no one stops Taiko players to play TnT or osu! player Elite Beats Agent. You are complaining about the imperfection of a system that is unique so far (or name me one emulator that has such a community integration.. oh yeh, there is none. o2mania's pool is basically .. is it even still up? I don't know. It was never really working for me. lr2 map page is only in japanese or klingon (for those who can not read japanese) and the community spread over 290294234 little forums, stepmania online ranking was weird, too) Even tho that osu! has not the perfect maps so far, I'd like to remmeber you how Beatmania started with their first arcade machines in the first years. Yes, exactly. With quite easy poop these days.

You can not expect the osu! community and the handful of mappers to map the insane shit from the very first day. Especialyl when the mentality here is not "harder, faster, stronger" but "quality > difficulty". We are getting more and more difficult maps here, the gameplay mechanics are similiar to BMS (woc actually copied the entire mechanism, I have no idea how much he tested stuff there tho), but I feel no real difference from o2jam to osu!mania tbh, apart of the drain rate and overall difficulty, which is even still variable.

this is hardly a bashing thread though, this is more of a "be aware of the game's shortcomings" thread

Then I must have misunderstood this tl;dr posts

tl;dr

p/3290576
The mechanics are lenient and lean towards a mindset that makes players pick up bad habits, which in turn made a player a cheater that destroyed another game's ecosystem when less lenient mechanics where pushed upon him.

If the game's perfect for you, great.

p/3292776
Tournaments are one-offs; it can't really say who the #1 is for a long period of time.
Nevertheless osu! has the bss and community integration as an incredible strength on its side.
He explains that every game has its strengths, and an enthusiast won't blindly defend any similar games.

p/3294706
The dan system is going to have problems; but a tiered milestone system is better than a global ranking.
osu! might not be the best game for high level competition, but he disagrees with the negative attitude.

p/3295569
Anyone who wants to be good at the VSRG genre should pick up more than just osu!mania.

p/3285423
osu! is for casual players. It's probably not going to change. If you want a hardcore set of mechanics there are options.

p/3287816
Improvement benchmarks should come from the player rather than a system. osu!'s passing threshold is lenient, but it still prefers easy SSs over clears, while drace sustains people look for clears.

p/3288302
A milestone system is a pretty good way to compare skill levels.



I might have misread, but this is my tl;dr

Tear wrote:

-Hazelnut wrote:

He's "insulting" you because you're trying to butt in his conversation with bobbias by not staying on topic and giving unnecessary comments.

Forums are not a place for a conversation between two people. If you don't want comments from bystanders, go somewhere else.

He's "insulting" you because you're trying to butt in his conversation with bobbias by not staying on topic and giving unnecessary comments.

People should really read until the end.

Loctav wrote:

I love how you all blame peppy for making osu!mania to be super lenient and the maps not being challenging enough.

Per se, nothing on mania has been changed since woc created it. Any blame you put on peppy is actually a blame you put on woc, your overly worshipped random chinese coder, who basically only submitted broken code all over the place (see: osu!mania editor). The only thing you can blame peppy for is the hitsound rule, but thats an old and boring story now.

Hm just controlled+f the whole thread for "peppy" and the only time he was mentioned (other than the xcrypt remark) was from Bobbias, who was actually arguing against the cons I was pointing out. Where did you read that?

Loctav wrote:

You are also whining because this game is not for hardcorers? That's ridiculous, you just failed to map proper hardcore maps so far. I can understand that here is a portion of people who got used to the bullcrap released on the arcade machines, where the map is optional to the actual song, and the map is only trying to make you rape the buttons harder, whereas you could simply turn off the mp3. You know it is a bit like that. You try to make osu! look like a game that tries to run off the rank of your beloved lunatic rave 2 or o2mania or stepmania, but well. osu! is not an arcade machine. osu! is an emulator like lr2 or o2mania. the difference in lr2 and o2mania: there is no moderation or gatekeeping, every bullshit map is available and playable. Well, this is also happening here. But unless of hyping the bullshit, it usually does simply not get ranked and therefore you call stuff lacking here.

Once in a lifetime, stop complaining. This thread is so pointless. I can not stand this arbitrary and superficial comments anymore. No one will stop you playing lr2, like no one stops Taiko players to play TnT or osu! player Elite Beats Agent. You are complaining about the imperfection of a system that is unique so far (or name me one emulator that has such a community integration.. oh yeh, there is none. o2mania's pool is basically .. is it even still up? I don't know. It was never really working for me. lr2 map page is only in japanese or klingon (for those who can not read japanese) and the community spread over 290294234 little forums, stepmania online ranking was weird, too) Even tho that osu! has not the perfect maps so far, I'd like to remmeber you how Beatmania started with their first arcade machines in the first years. Yes, exactly. With quite easy poop these days.

None of the arguments that took place here were about "hardcoreness" or maps. What was being discussed here is how certain mechanics can contribute to quicker and more proper improvements, and how other mechanics can lead to slower improvements and development of bad habits. Osu wasn't getting bashed here, and none of this was depicting which games are superior to others. I even took the time to point out osu's pros and the other game's cons to enforce this. But it seems only few people got the attention span to read and understand the entirety of my posts. I don't blame them though. They're pretty big.

Loctav wrote:

You can not expect the osu! community and the handful of mappers to map the insane shit from the very first day. Especialyl when the mentality here is not "harder, faster, stronger" but "quality > difficulty". We are getting more and more difficult maps here, the gameplay mechanics are similiar to BMS (woc actually copied the entire mechanism, I have no idea how much he tested stuff there tho), but I feel no real difference from o2jam to osu!mania tbh, apart of the drain rate and overall difficulty, which is even still variable.

The video that started this thread is but one of many differences... There's not a single mechanic that works the same here and all the other games, none. Is that a bad thing? Of course it's not. That's the variety and differences I'm pointing out here for crying out loud.

First you say stop whining about the "differences" in osu, then you say "there is no difference". Um, what?

----

I don't mind people butting in at all, I encourage it. It's by discussing people come to conclusions. But if you're going argue one of someone's points, please take the time to elaborate and formulate proper arguments of your own. And don't forget to make sure you actually understand the point before saying anything about it. Simple "you're wrong cuz I said so" replies aren't constructive to a conversation and are simply an insulting waste of time. This isn't a poll, it's a discussion.

even if they revamp mania to actually be a proper game mode where you have to play a VSRG not fingermash420noscopesimulator2014 lots of people would quit i think i agree with drace people should just play another game if they want to experience this kind of rhythm game in the way its meant to be experienced... but i also dont think drace should be taking away so much from the people who actually love mania. you can get better at mania by playing mania end of story. spitting cheeto crumbs all over your neckbeard while scowling at people who play mania to get better and putting them down by saying they wouldn't last 2 second on *insert game that isn't mania* is just overly elitist imo. you dont play counter strike: go to get good at quake/unreal tournament for example, even though they are the same genre.

the auto-convert system is just so terrible for every mode, perhaps least so for ctb, but taiko is facepalm [lolmadmachine, loldrumrolls] and from what ive heard from mania players it's so bad that many don't even think they should give PP at all. sometimes i just think if a little more thought was put into the other modes before giving them ranking systems we'd be much better off.

Man I'm so glad I play standard, there's really no other game like it worth comparing it to so this kind of game-shaming never happens.

Riince wrote:

i agree with drace people should just play another game if they want to experience this kind of rhythm game in the way its meant to be experienced...

sorry you didn't get drace's point

Agka wrote:

Riince wrote:

i agree with drace people should just play another game if they want to experience this kind of rhythm game in the way its meant to be experienced...

sorry you didn't get drace's point

Why are you apologizing to me?

Riince wrote:

Agka wrote:

sorry you didn't get drace's point

Why are you apologizing to me?

p/3296397
because I explained it on this same page

never apologize for what you believe!

I am trying to show people they aren't limited to choosing a single game.

I take the time to point out that every game has their own strong points.

I take the time to point out that every game has their own cons.

I take the time to show how specific mechanics influences your improvements greatly.

I point out how you can use ALL VSRGs to maximize your improvements.

I never once said something along the lines that osu is horrible and everyone should play something else.

Then people come talk about maps, peppy, auto-converts, ranking semantics, personal preferences, which game is generally "better", gamefeel, mapping, editors, SVs and on top of that they try to tell me to stop bashing osu!mania. All things that have nothing to do with this topic. And I can show you what a real bashing is if you want it so bad.

Hopefully the 6 sentence tl;dr isn't too much for those of you who couldn't understand. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over and only getting replies from people who completely miss the point.

i wonder how effective osumania would be if we turned player ability into a milestone system, something like where all of the songs are treated as hp9/10 to really test people rather then seeing how well they can spam, if we were able to create a system like this on a larger scale with more maps ready for ranked status then what is ready now and maybe create something that's like a build off from the 4sam and entozer difficulty tests I think osumania would work out a lot better. we do still need mechanics that punish spamming harder, ive seen long note songs in hp9 not providing much hp back at all, it cant be said that the long note aspect is too easy to stay alive in atm if the hp is put up and this system can be set to specific skills like your long note level may archieve higher then your slider velocity level tbh a milestone system needs to be divided up into key count: sv/ln/bms equivalent maps having their own separate milestone levels

Such a system can indeed turn out to be interesting, but it will never happen here in mania. This is how the game is, and this is how it will be. Nothing will change, and nothing needs to change. Because mania is already a game of it's own and it already has it's own playerbase. There's no point in contemplating "changes".

I won't be surprised if future games will end up featuring such a system though. Something to look forward to.

Loctav says what everyone thinks ♥

Wtf is your point? Other rhythm games exist and we can play them too? Show me a single person that doesn't know that anything other than mania exists. And if you don't want me to comment on unrelated things, don't say unrelated things. This became a bashing thread the moment you criticized the lenient mania timing, because it changed the first post video from an innocent joke to toxic and sarcastic commentary. It's obvious people will see everything after that as more bashing. If you want to change the topic, make another thread.

Loctav wrote:

The only thing you can blame peppy for is the hitsound rule, but thats an old and boring story now.

Well, we can blame him for dropping .ogg, which basically killed 95% of keysounded maps, but that's another story

Wow. I'm astounded that even the 6 sentence tl;dr wasn't simple enough.

Tear wrote:

Loctav says what everyone thinks ♥

Indeed, he barely read anything just like you. Be proud.

Tear wrote:

Wtf is your point?

Was swearing really necessary here?

Tear wrote:

Other rhythm games exist and we can play them too? Show me a single person that doesn't know that anything other than mania exists.

Seriously at this point you're purposely missing the point for who knows why. You honestly think I'd waste my own time to say something so dumb? I’m talking about how we can use certain mechanics to maximize our overall improvement. How other mechanics enforces bad habits, aka deterioration. You said you don’t even care about improving, so this doesn’t even concern you. Yet you’re still here. Is your sole purpose here to troll?

Tear wrote:

And if you don't want me to comment on unrelated things, don't say unrelated things.

Right since this whole time I wasn’t talking about gameplay mechanics and influences on overall improvement. Something that you never even touched upon yet. It doesn't mean that you were on-topic simply because you talked about the same elements I talked about. Example: I talked about player ranking vs milestones to show how it influences improvements with motivations and delusions. But then you go on saying something arbitrary like the purpose of PP isn’t for ranking people. With which I still find to be completely ridiculous, but it’s entirely off-topic and devoid of any point in this discussion. That goes for everything else you said too, you never once spoke about what influences player skill.

Tear wrote:

This became a bashing thread the moment you criticized the lenient mania timing, because it changed the first post video from an innocent joke to toxic and sarcastic commentary. It's obvious people I will see everything after that as more bashing. If you want to change the topic, make another thread.

I pointed out pros and cons for every game. Just because I pointed out cons for osu first doesn't make it a bashing thread, it's you're own fault for not reading through. Don't get mad at me for your own incapabilities. You and Loctav were the only ones who came in thinking I was bashing. And Loctav most likely only thought so too since he skimmed through the thread and seen your own misinformed posts.

6th time in a row failing to provide proper contribution to the discussion, what's your point. You just come here and talk without even knowing what were talking about. It’s like you don’t even want to know. You're just arguing what ever you can even if it doesn't make sense simply because you don't like how I pointed out a couple things. If you can't handle simple criticism on your favourite game, and amongst other games to top it off, you got no place in discussions that take all games into consideration. Because pros and cons are going to be thrown left and right.

I agree that not being able to deduce the topic from thread name and OP can prove to be complicated. But that didn't stop the majority from understanding.

Oh so criticism = bashing now? I guess that's osu forum logic.
And I don't see anyone agreeing with Loctav here other than you.

"Wtf is your point?"
This proves that you have nothing to contribute to this thread and is only merely here to troll by not reading other people's posts and making uneccesary comments to a constructive discussion. This started as a good discussion with few potential ideas for o!m in the future here and there. Stop trying to ruin it.

I think this is a great discussion in all honesty, keep up the informative posts. While changes to o!m might not necessarily occur as a product of this thread, it's always great to have constructive posts about the game's positives and negatives in relation to other games in the genre, such as Lunatic Rave 2, o2mania, Stepmania, Flash Flash Revolution, etc.