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silmarilen
something like that already exists in the way that more notes means more acc pp
higurush

silmarilen wrote:

something like that already exists in the way that more notes means more acc pp
Well, if it exists, it's still not enough to make me play longer maps and struggle on them for better acc. Because it isn't worth the pain. Still getting more pp if I DT some random TVsize map. Time spent/pp rate is better.
It's like I play those longer maps once in a while, because I like the song and that's it.
iaceo
Hmm, let me start out by saying.. This might just be due to my personal playstyle but I dont believe "tricky spacing" is weighted enough right now..
Ive been waiting a while after this songs release before writing anything on the subject
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/394808&m=0
Luvatorrrrry landing at sub 5 stars, insane techniques landing at 5,5..
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/155288
These two map will be my examples but it shows in quite a few Hanzer/ skystar/HW maps i believe (and more mappers are doing sections like these of late as well)

Now they are both at over 20k plays~ neither of the leader boards is really filled with FCs yet and they both have some lower acc plays towards the bottom (Bs ;d)
For people who dont play 5 star maps, here is a 5,44 star leaderboard for comparison
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/94506
Now, i have never played the Amatsuki map and im currently away for work.. But i hope its a fairly normal map in terms of its mapping.

So anyways, what i believe is the problem with the first two maps are the quarterbeat spacings.. Sudden changes to your movement... Be it two notes or four in a stream that has spaces between the stacks.. Heck in luvatorrrrrys case i think most people have the speed to singletap most of the quarterbeats and combos are still beeing lost

So, if possible i think ... Sudden shifts in spacing/speed needs an inspection, a spacing shift for a prolonged period of time aint too bad but when it varies with every 3 notes for a period of time mistakes happen ;d

Sorry about lazy links and typos if there are any, as i mentioned im away for work so this is all written on my phone~ in the bathroom~ over and out!
higurush

iaceo wrote:

Hmm, let me start out by saying.. This might just be due to my personal playstyle but I dont believe "tricky spacing" is weighted enough right now..
It has been discussed some pages ago. The example was the val0108 maps, especially the 260+ bpm ones. They don't have streams, but have extreme spacing, yet they are not even weighted correctly. For eg. if you SS the With a Dance Number, you won't even get 250pp, which is sad, because the map is around the difficulty of a HRHD Remote Control. Same with Scarlet Rose, Talent Shredder, No39, YuYuMetal, etc.

It is hard to weight them because that would affect a ton of maps in an overrated way and they solved the issue of leaving them out of the top pp list. Though it could be solved by adding them to a "Special weighting", but that would cause a lot of controversial argument between players of how "this and that" map is not in the list, which could be solved by creating a unique forum for them, but that would be too much work:D
iaceo
I did some skimming for some 10 pages back.. Searched val0108 and looked for hits in this thread for pretty much a year.. I came up with some fragments discussing a previous discussion on the matter ^^
But from what i gathered it was partially about single tapping speeds..
I personally find the spacing in his maps rather fluid, which is not what im trying to convey here.
The maps that i mentioned are maps that have lots of variations in speed

A split up stream or even a stream placed as stacked doubles. Stuff you need well timed jerky moves for or constant variation in movement speed
Whileas with the val maps its pretty fluid which requires (in my opinion) a different kind of control. What im looking for here is for, a way of detecting ongoing variations throughout the song! Be it speed changes or movement.

I believe continuously adapting to stuff like this aint rewarded enough and my examples for maps doing this sort of (I believe i read someone calling it) "overflowous" type of moves.
pielak213
http://puu.sh/aaaEj.osz

why is this map 6.9 stars
pyon

pielak wrote:

http://puu.sh/aaaEj.osz

why is this map 6.9 stars
me too i wonder are those separated note streams THAT overrrated?
dennischan
I guess the thing that should be done first is to nerf shorter maps.
We see that most "good performances" are generally under 2 minutes, which shows that people find it easier in general to make high pp performances in the case if it has a low drain time.
Therefore, it can be concluded that shorter maps should be given less pp to balance the system.
The actual multiplier can be calculated with a logarithmic function, which should make sure that the bonus is not overly large for marathon and can make sure that maps shorter that 30s can receive a huge pp nerf to balance the system.
xasuma
/
Vuelo Eluko

xasuma wrote:

This is not necessarily a pp matter, but more of a balance thing. Which is sort of related to pp in the end.
Anywyas, imho , I believe that the drain for spinners should be re-done.

As of now, spinners will give a boost hp when the spinner is completed, and during the spinner itself, is common for your hp to drop (unless you spin extremely fast).

I think either the hp drain during spinners should be less.
or
The hp bonus you get when you complete a spinner should be distributed during the entirety of the spinner itself.

Why is this? Because of long spinners. Long spinners can be very hard to pass when the od is high enough. So hard in fact, that to me, is kind of silly.

Thoughts?
i think this is the wrong thread to discuss that :)
dennischan
I agree with bassist, and the main point is how longer maps can be rewarded, not how hp drain works during spinners.
Vuelo Eluko

dennischan wrote:

I agree with bassist, and the main point is how longer maps can be rewarded, not how hp drain works during spinners.
what? that's YOUR point not mine or the threads point lol
AlphaFlow
umm its all cool and all but is it normal to not get olmost any pp at all?
got 4 Hards On SS 3of them have more than 20k plays by other ppl and i got 1pp for them and i played a few normals with mods and got into the top 50 and got like 0pp no rly 0pp is it bc im lvl 95 or smth? played 3insanes got S's over 96-98% accuracy and i got 1pp is this seriuos or am i expiriencing a bug?
cuzz if this is seriuos am i susposed to go and play marathons or Breakcores or whatever u call it that goes above the insane?
Vuelo Eluko

valixas125 wrote:

umm its all cool and all but is it normal to not get olmost any pp at all?
got 4 Hards On SS 3of them have more than 20k plays by other ppl and i got 1pp for them and i played a few normals with mods and got into the top 50 and got like 0pp no rly 0pp is it bc im lvl 95 or smth? played 3insanes got S's over 96-98% accuracy and i got 1pp is this seriuos or am i expiriencing a bug?
cuzz if this is seriuos am i susposed to go and play marathons or Breakcores or whatever u call it that goes above the insane?
you have to play harder maps... thats all... the insanes you are S'ing are probably not even really insanes just named such if you arent getting pp at your rank for them. fc 4+ star maps and you will definitely notice it.
Omgforz
Is note density (relation between bpm and ar) a factor in the aim portion of the pp algorithm?
tfg50

Omgforz wrote:

Is note density (relation between bpm and ar) a factor in the aim portion of the pp algorithm?
On tp ar8(?)-ar10 is the same when you talk about the calculations. AR outside that range gives a bonus to aim. That's probably how it works here aswell.
jesse1412
I think it's something like anything below ar9 or above ar10 gives a bonus to aim. Don't quote me on this.
Omgforz
Yeah, I remember that, but I'm talking about the density.

ar9 250 bpm should perhaps give a bonus to aim, because it's definitely harder to read than ar9 180 bpm

but maybe this bonus is being incorporated in some other way, or it's not even looked at.
AlphaFlow

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

valixas125 wrote:

umm its all cool and all but is it normal to not get olmost any pp at all?
got 4 Hards On SS 3of them have more than 20k plays by other ppl and i got 1pp for them and i played a few normals with mods and got into the top 50 and got like 0pp no rly 0pp is it bc im lvl 95 or smth? played 3insanes got S's over 96-98% accuracy and i got 1pp is this seriuos or am i expiriencing a bug?
cuzz if this is seriuos am i susposed to go and play marathons or Breakcores or whatever u call it that goes above the insane?
you have to play harder maps... thats all... the insanes you are S'ing are probably not even really insanes just named such if you arent getting pp at your rank for them. fc 4+ star maps and you will definitely notice it.
wow, well thats kinda lame, i wish i would be a low lvl account again, could farm PP all day bc lets be honest 50-60% of our lvl's are made out of fails or plays that didnt grant us pp... i could farm PP on lov lvls like baws :/ kinda unfair if u ask me atleast from my standpoints when i play with my friends who i recently talked into takin osu they gain PP for the maps we play and all theyre around 30-40lvls and i dont even tho its like 3stars and i havent played it yet and its really unfair in my eyes... the PP grantage shouldnt be decided by ur lvl it should be decided on skill alone and not on ur account level... though this game relied on skill appearantly i was wrong :c quite sad... i enjoyed this game quite much and the thrills of gettin more and more PP just got me hooked on the game, and now that i have to play 4-5star maps which are quite fu**in hard is throwing me off the game. lets be real alot of players well me bc im real competative gets hooked on the game just bc they keep winning over other players and now that i olmost cant get PP or i have to spend like 2hours on 1map to gain any PP whatsover makes me wanna cry i love this game so much but recently im playng it less and less because i dont ge the thrill of beating other ppl ofcourse u might think im just talkin crap and im sorry if but well im talkin outloud i might say so dont take this very seriuosly if what i wrote here does not apply to u, maybe im just 2noobish and cant play 4-5stars map like u guyz or smth well that just my oppinion... :!:
btw full comboed a 3.9 star map 97% accuracy got 1PP horay.... :cry: (Got PP for like a 5star map tho :) :) :) 8-) )
uberpancake
The pp you gain by fcing a map has no relation to your level. First you complain saying that you thought that this game was supposed to reward skill and then you want it to reward playing the same difficulty over and over. The way the pp and ranking system works right now is that you have to make better plays to improve your ranking. This ensures that you can't just farm your way up the rankings and instead need to be skilled to reach the top, exactly like you wanted.
Genki1000

valixas125 wrote:

lots of text
I'm not sure if I understood but if you want pp:

1. You can go here and full combo the maps that come out at the top

2. Just add DT to your plays
3. If you're really desperate, SS random OD4/5 normals with DTHR

tfg50

valixas125 wrote:

wow, well thats kinda lame, i wish i would be a low lvl account again, could farm PP all day bc lets be honest 50-60% of our lvl's are made out of fails or plays that didnt grant us pp... i could farm PP on lov lvls like baws :/ kinda unfair if u ask me atleast from my standpoints when i play with my friends who i recently talked into takin osu they gain PP for the maps we play and all theyre around 30-40lvls and i dont even tho its like 3stars and i havent played it yet and its really unfair in my eyes... the PP grantage shouldnt be decided by ur lvl it should be decided on skill alone and not on ur account level... though this game relied on skill appearantly i was wrong :c quite sad... i enjoyed this game quite much and the thrills of gettin more and more PP just got me hooked on the game, and now that i have to play 4-5star maps which are quite fu**in hard is throwing me off the game. lets be real alot of players well me bc im real competative gets hooked on the game just bc they keep winning over other players and now that i olmost cant get PP or i have to spend like 2hours on 1map to gain any PP whatsover makes me wanna cry i love this game so much but recently im playng it less and less because i dont ge the thrill of beating other ppl ofcourse u might think im just talkin crap and im sorry if but well im talkin outloud i might say so dont take this very seriuosly if what i wrote here does not apply to u, maybe im just 2noobish and cant play 4-5stars map like u guyz or smth well that just my oppinion... :!:
btw full comboed a 3.9 star map 97% accuracy got 1PP horay.... :cry: (Got PP for like a 5star map tho :) :) :) 8-) )
First, if you at least tried to use proper grammar and spacing that wall of text could be easily more readable.

Second, if you were trully "competative" you would understand that playing stuff of the same level you usually play and getting "good" scores on that isn't something a competitive person would do at all. That would be almost the same as you being low ranked on any game (SC2/LoL/Dota) and winning against the same bad opponents over and over again.

"Almost the same" is there because it is even worse when you consider that on those games you play against other people and on osu! you play alone (multiplayer room or not it doesn't make a difference and your rank on the beatmaps should not be counted when you take into account that not every player played that map).

If you want to be higher ranked on anything, there is, more often than not, an easier way (DT PLOX). But if you want to really deserve being higher ranked you just need to focus on improving and the results will show up sooner or later.
lenkki-rastas
I have a feeling like it isn't recognizing some hard patterns
I'm prob wrong about this
Ziggo

erite-rastas wrote:

I have a feeling like it isn't recognizing some hard patterns
I'm prob wrong about this
Right now there's no pattern recognition at all. So you are right.
Nyxa

Genki1000 wrote:

valixas125 wrote:

lots of text
I'm not sure if I understood but if you want pp:

1. You can go here and full combo the maps that come out at the top

2. Just add DT to your plays
3. If you're really desperate, SS random OD4/5 normals with DTHR


It's fucking retarded though that some Insanes give as much pp for an SS as Normals with HDDTHR, which are way easier. I know that I can FC 4-star Insanes until I die and won't get a single pp, but when I play DTHR Normals in multi with friends of a much lower rank than mine (90K-300K) I sometimes randomly gain 1pp, despite not even FCing it. I really think something should be done about this (or I'm just really misunderstanding the system).

Also, I think that the problem is not with the pp given, but with the weightings of pp that are currently there. I think your top performances should be rewarded a little more, and your bottom performances a little less. I'm also going to guess that the aforementioned problem has to do with this. Rather than the scaling you have now, I think it would be better to give a much heavier weighting to your top 10 performances, and then have the scaling decrease exponentially from there. That way, people with a lot of high-level top performances would end up with a higher rank than people with lots of performances of the same rank. I know it already sort of works like this, but I think that this system should be upped a level. I've seen players with a rank higher than mine who just had lots of 170-160pp performances, while there are players with a lower rank than me, despite having a few really strong performances (220-190pp for the top 5-10), only because they have less performances below those.

So, in short, I think that better performances should be rewarded more, and worse performances rewarded less.
Full Tablet

Tess wrote:

It's fucking retarded though that some Insanes give as much pp for an SS as Normals with HDDTHR, which are way easier. I know that I can FC 4-star Insanes until I die and won't get a single pp, but when I play DTHR Normals in multi with friends of a much lower rank than mine (90K-300K) I sometimes randomly gain 1pp, despite not even FCing it. I really think something should be done about this (or I'm just really misunderstanding the system).
The random pp you get while playing Normals most likely come from the pp bonus from having played many different maps. If you have about 1000 ranks, you get about 0.137pp each new map you play no matter how well you do (this bonus caps at 416.667pp, with 1000 ranks the bonus is 188.036pp).
Vuelo Eluko
these algorithm changes had a huge effect on the top 5 this time, lewa and woof in particular, not so much for most players. My PP and my friends barely changed. Whereas the last algorithm change didnt effect the top 5 much [well except sayo but he was still #1 when he lost like a hundredpp], yet had a big effect on the lower ranks. I lost nearly 20.

How odd.

Would be funny if this suddenly became a ridiculous pp map. I notice Uan's rank is 215 now from 270 and along with www who also got a huge pp boost shares a FC with him.... this could be hilarious i can see everyone playing the 50 minute 700pp map now
Ziggo
I'm assuming it hasn't updated for everyone yet. Give it a day or two and it will probably look different again.
silmarilen
considering rrtyui's pp hasnt changed, not everybody in top10 has their pp updated yet
Vuelo Eluko
im wondering why some people lost PP

http://ask.fm/Tom94/answer/116146691278#_=_

This led me to believe it wouldn't happen.
Topic Starter
Tom94

Riince wrote:

im wondering why some people lost PP

http://ask.fm/Tom94/answer/116146691278#_=_

This led me to believe it wouldn't happen.
There is only a very, very tiny fraction of people who lost pp. The whole thing has to keep balance to some degree, though, so it's not entirely unavoidable.
Vuelo Eluko

Tom94 wrote:

Riince wrote:

im wondering why some people lost PP

http://ask.fm/Tom94/answer/116146691278#_=_

This led me to believe it wouldn't happen.
There is only a very, very tiny fraction of people who lost pp. The whole thing has to keep balance to some degree, though, so it's not entirely unavoidable.
eh. both me and my friend both lost pp i havent checked with my other friends but the fraction cant be that tiny if the one random friend i was talking to also had it happened. Probabilities.

Either way it was very minor [5 for me, 4 for him], but there will definitely be threads complaining :cry: you underestimate the # of people abusingplaying super short maps to artificially inflate their rank like me
tfg50
I gained 28 pp and I have quite a few DT farmed scores (some long ones some short ones). I don't think there will be lots of people complaining.
Genki1000
From what I see, most people who lost ranks have songs like

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/380646?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/147365?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/109570

in their top plays.

I lost 4pp but gained accuracy, so I'm guessing Granat got pushed down for me.
jesse1412
Long or spaced streams still overrated, fast streams still underrated.
Maxis
Personally I went up 9pp, whereas my tops are fairly varied in length but most are around 1-2min.

My friend went down, though all of his tops are under 1 minute, so I'm pretty sure the pp reduction would only happen if you have really short tops.

brb going to FC unforgiving
Gritoit

Maxis wrote:

Personally I went up 9pp, whereas my tops are fairly varied in length but most are around 1-2min.

My friend went down, though all of his tops are under 1 minute, so I'm pretty sure the pp reduction would only happen if you have really short tops.

brb going to FC unforgiving
Taking a guess that it is songs under 1:30 since I lost 4 pp and do not have any under 1 min in my top 10.
ivan
x
manjumochi

Tom94 wrote:

There is only a very, very tiny fraction of people who lost pp. The whole thing has to keep balance to some degree, though, so it's not entirely unavoidable.
I lost :(
I never have luck on pp recalculations.
Novixion
I gained around 60 pp but i lost around 100 ranks D: RIP

Well, I've also always lost ranks on pp updates cause I got no accuracy.
B1rd
so longer songs give more pp now? is this why Snow- brick or whatever his name is is now #1?---

oh wait, sayo is now no. 1 again. huh.
lenkki-rastas
Lost PP when improving accuracy on my 2 DT scores?
Yes, I know it's still recalculating but the amount that I improved was about 1,4% on both of those maps
Vuelo Eluko
more misses = less reward
if you fc'd but lost pp you probably lost it from the algorithm change and it just now updated.
pielak213
I think you overdid it Tom. This seems like it's worth too much https://osu.ppy.sh/b/335628?m=0

Hidden still overated, flashlight still underated
GoldenWolf

pielak wrote:

I think you overdid it Tom. This seems like it's worth too much https://osu.ppy.sh/b/335628?m=0
yo
silmarilen
someone go get 99.5% acc and break 500pp with an hd hr score pls
Novixion
Is the length scaling based on combo or drain time?

I noticed 4D got a huge buff but what about Kokou no Sousei and similar maps?
Vuelo Eluko

Novixion wrote:

Is the length scaling based on combo or drain time?

I noticed 4D got a huge buff but what about Kokou no Sousei and similar maps?
# of circles.
jesse1412

Novixion wrote:

Is the length scaling based on combo or drain time?

I noticed 4D got a huge buff but what about Kokou no Sousei and similar maps?
Their issue isn't map length, it's spacing bonuses for fast singles.
silmarilen

Riince wrote:

Novixion wrote:

Is the length scaling based on combo or drain time?

I noticed 4D got a huge buff but what about Kokou no Sousei and similar maps?
# of circles.
# of hitobjects*
Nyxa

pielak wrote:

Hidden still overrated, >>>flashlight still underrated<<<
Whoever says that flashlight is easy if you know the map should shoot themselves.
It's the hardest mod in the game and deserves to be treated as such.
-GN
Who plays FL for pp anyway? It's so ball-bustingly hard to pull off anything above 250pp that it's not worth it in any case. FL is played for interesting scores, not to get points for it, since anyone who wanted the latter would find more effective ways to get it than playing a single map 200 times to get some high rank.

It could probably use a small buff, just to make the FL scores stand even taller compared to HD/nomod plays, but other than that I don't get the point, honestly.
ivan
x
Vuelo Eluko

Ivan wrote:

this game would be more fun if you could rank up constantly, i feel that ppv2 is only for pros since u can only get god pp if ur a pro :P

Im hoping for more buffs in other mods to gain pp like doubletime :P way too stressful if u cant play anything
of course you need to be good to get ranks, how would it be fair if you could get there without being better or equal to the the "pro" people? That's just a ludicrous thing to complain about...

play more hr and use it on harder maps [maps too hard for dt] and you will get comparable PP to DT. If you couldn't, there wouldn't be HDHR players on the top 10... something else worth noting is freedom dive nomod gives more pp than every single sayo dt score
ivan
x
Vuelo Eluko
its just a silly suggestion the whole reason ppv1 was removed was to get rid of farming so you couldn't just play all the maps and get ranks without setting impressive scores. It's a step backwards really.
ivan
x
Vuelo Eluko
im not mad at you wtf :?
GoldenWolf

Ivan wrote:

i think ppv2 is just farming too
Tell me how ppv2 is at least equally farming based compared to ppv1.
ivan
x
XxPIELAK_FANxX

pielak wrote:

I think you overdid it Tom. This seems like it's worth too much https://osu.ppy.sh/b/335628?m=0

Hidden still overated, flashlight still underated
very true it would seem
Zare
I've got a question about aim pp/stars

How exactly does CS affect it?
let's assume we have a 200 BPM jump map that has a certain "base" aim difficulty defined by the speed and spacing of the jumps
Now we have CS4 on this map and we get the star rating 5.2 or something
What exactly in the calculation changes when we switch to CS5 or higher (e.g. HR) now?

As it seems now higher CS only gives a linear, minor boost to the base difficultym which woule explain why it is so underrated when it actually adds a lot to the difficulty
Drezi
As far as I know the whole map is scaled up so that CS becomes the same, and the distances get bigger. It's pretty fair imo, since you can do this on your own anyway - you can play with bigger hitcircles but bigger distances too by increasing your osu resolution.
NixXSkate
Whenever there's a pp update, there really needs to be a refresh in rankings. It's extremely annoying trying to aim for pp scores to get my rank back to where it was, then losing ranks when I get a high pp score.
Vuelo Eluko
play a map you havent played to easily set a new score and refresh your rank
personally i play a tv size [Easy] with nofail doubletime and wave my cursor around for 50 seconds and bam update
NixXSkate

Riince wrote:

play a map you havent played to easily set a new score and refresh your rank
personally i play a tv size [Easy] with nofail doubletime and wave my cursor around for 50 seconds and bam update
It doesn't work unless everyone's refreshed already.
silmarilen
afaik it does update, it just takes a couple of days because of the amount of people/scores it has to update
lenkki-rastas

Tess wrote:

pielak wrote:

Hidden still overrated, >>>flashlight still underrated<<<
Whoever says that flashlight is easy if you know the map should shoot themselves.
It's the hardest mod in the game and deserves to be treated as such.
ayy lmaoo
Avena

Drezi wrote:

As far as I know the whole map is scaled up so that CS becomes the same, and the distances get bigger. It's pretty fair imo, since you can do this on your own anyway - you can play with bigger hitcircles but bigger distances too by increasing your osu resolution.
No, it doesn't scale to it.. Resolution and Circle Size don't actually relate to each other.
I agree with Zare, I made a few CS5 jump maps and their star rating is absurdly low compared to the actual difficulty due to the circle size being underrated.
pielak213

Priti wrote:

.
I agree with Zare, I made a few CS5 jump maps and their star rating is absurdly low compared to the actual difficulty due to the circle size being underrated.
You're just not used to cs5. Every map that comes out these days are either cs4 or cs5. You're so accustomed to it that anything 5 or higher is small to you. After I learned to play cs6.5 I think the star rating is actually balanced. The difficulty is mostly from just keeping a full combo on a long map with small circles..
Topic Starter
Tom94

Priti wrote:

Drezi wrote:

As far as I know the whole map is scaled up so that CS becomes the same, and the distances get bigger. It's pretty fair imo, since you can do this on your own anyway - you can play with bigger hitcircles but bigger distances too by increasing your osu resolution.
No, it doesn't scale to it.. Resolution and Circle Size don't actually relate to each other.
I agree with Zare, I made a few CS5 jump maps and their star rating is absurdly low compared to the actual difficulty due to the circle size being underrated.
Yes they do relate as long as you are not playing fullscreen and thus re-scaling resolutions which do not match your monitor back up.
pooptartsonas
It's true that resolution and circle size are related like that, but any incidental movement (eg shaky hands) has its effect amplified more the smaller the circle size is. Yes, increasing the tablet size solves this issue in theory, but one can only play with a tablet area so large, and most people play with roughly the largest area they feel comfortable playing with. And the reason people try to play with larger areas is just that; the larger the area, the less of an impact shakiness has. Thus, I think on the higher end (cs6/7+) the circle size really tends to get underrated.


The other thing I want to say regards the recent changes. The reason that longer maps should (and now do) have the scaling factor is because your chance to miss and the amount of time required to fc drastically increase as the map length increases. This is irrelevant if the map is a fairly routine full combo, causing long maps that are easy for the player to become overrated. This is not important in most cases, as a map that is a routine full combo for the player will not be worth a significant amount of pp to them anyway.

However, it causes problems in the extreme case (~2500+ combo). The scaling on long maps continues to increase, meaning that a player can gain a significant amount of pp from a map that they will practically never miss on, given that it is long enough. This is clearly seen in the world's end map that pielak referenced earlier. The pp awarded is pretty clearly too high. With that said, I think the changes worked wonders for anything in the 1000-1500 combo range. The bonus for map length simply needs to begin to taper off around 2k combo, and I think the algorithm will be in an excellent spot in terms of accounting for map length.
Vuelo Eluko

pooptartsonas wrote:

And the reason people try to play with larger areas is just that; the larger the area, the less of an impact shakiness has. Thus, I think on the higher end (cs6/7+) the circle size really tends to get underrated.
shakiness is almost completely irrelevant for mouse players though. once they snap their cursor goes dead still.
i say almost because obviously shaking can have some effect on the snap itself but a hovering tablet player will almost always shake either way, a mouse player depends on nervousness.

shakiness seems like a poor reason so buff high CS

pooptartsonas wrote:

However, it causes problems in the extreme case (~2500+ combo). The scaling on long maps continues to increase, meaning that a player can gain a significant amount of pp from a map that they will practically never miss on, given that it is long enough. This is clearly seen in the world's end map that pielak referenced earlier. The pp awarded is pretty clearly too high. With that said, I think the changes worked wonders for anything in the 1000-1500 combo range. The bonus for map length simply needs to begin to taper off around 2k combo, and I think the algorithm will be in an excellent spot in terms of accounting for map length.
fair point though, this should definitely be considered. even low acc fcs of that are giving well above 300 pp just wow
uzzi

Riince wrote:

shakiness is almost completely irrelevant for mouse players though. once they snap their cursor goes dead still.
i say almost because obviously shaking can have some effect on the snap itself but a hovering tablet player will almost always shake either way, a mouse player depends on nervousness.
Eh, mouse players have other things to worry about than nervousness.
Zare


my top scores

















wat
Amianki
Your accuracy being lower in the non-DT scores doesn't exactly help anything.

You'd be surprised how much adding 1% to your score when your accuracy is that high can do to your pp.
Vuelo Eluko
lagomorph worth same pp as da nu nuttah lol
OD too stronk
GoldenWolf

Riince wrote:

lagomorph worth same pp as da nu nuttah lol
OD too stronk
Da Nu Nuttah isn't hard, I find lagomorphic's jumps harder
Zare

CalignoBot wrote:

Your accuracy being lower in the non-DT scores doesn't exactly help anything.

You'd be surprised how much adding 1% to your score when your accuracy is that high can do to your pp.
even with the same accuracy, those DT scores would give more pp than the Nomod scores, which is just stupid
GoldenWolf

Zare wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

Your accuracy being lower in the non-DT scores doesn't exactly help anything.

You'd be surprised how much adding 1% to your score when your accuracy is that high can do to your pp.
even with the same accuracy, those DT scores would give more pp than the Nomod scores, which is just stupid
You're undervaluing accuracy/overvaluing the difficulty of these maps imo
Honestly they're all (this top 5) about the same difficulty
Vuelo Eluko

GoldenWolf wrote:

Riince wrote:

lagomorph worth same pp as da nu nuttah lol
OD too stronk
Da Nu Nuttah isn't hard, I find lagomorphic's jumps harder
well i find da nu nuttah harder and thats just my opinion
my score on both, the star diff, and even the scoreboards themselves seem to agree
silmarilen
im pretty sure lagomorph was farmed heavily back with tp because of the high aim value it had.
Vuelo Eluko
perhaps. but the # of complete playthroughs on them is even, with da nu nuttah edging out by a bit more.
but maybe you're right. i mean how many of those plays are ponyfags who found osu and played renard maps?
Nyxa

-GN wrote:

Who plays FL for pp anyway? It's so ball-bustingly hard to pull off anything above 250pp that it's not worth it in any case. FL is played for interesting scores, not to get points for it, since anyone who wanted the latter would find more effective ways to get it than playing a single map 200 times to get some high rank.

It could probably use a small buff, just to make the FL scores stand even taller compared to HD/nomod plays, but other than that I don't get the point, honestly.
The point of buffing it would be exactly that. Making it worth it to play FL, because right now it is /heavily/ underrated. For a mod where you can not possibly get a sightread FC/SS without cheating, the fact that it isn't the most rewarding mod is ridiculous.

If you're going to tell me that this play



is easier to achieve than this



you're crazy.



pooptartsonas wrote:

However, it causes problems in the extreme case (~2500+ combo). The scaling on long maps continues to increase, meaning that a player can gain a significant amount of pp from a map that they will practically never miss on, given that it is long enough. This is clearly seen in the world's end map that pielak referenced earlier. The pp awarded is pretty clearly too high. With that said, I think the changes worked wonders for anything in the 1000-1500 combo range. The bonus for map length simply needs to begin to taper off around 2k combo, and I think the algorithm will be in an excellent spot in terms of accounting for map length.
You're underestimating how hard it is to get a 2K+ combo. And, for that matter, anyone saying that World's End is overrated is /completely/ ignoring the ridiculously long spaced streams, the constant jumps that can sometimes get pretty damn big and the fact that it's a 6 minute+ beatmap. It is not overrated at all.
Vuelo Eluko

Tess wrote:

The point of buffing it would be exactly that. Making it worth it to play FL, because right now it is /heavily/ underrated. For a mod where you can not possibly get a sightread FC/SS without cheating, the fact that it isn't the most rewarding mod is ridiculous.
this is still not a play-style that should be promoted. it isn't fun or interesting, and because it doesn't make the song harder in any technical aspect it provides a negligible pp bonus like hidden and that's how it should be. there's a difference between a maps difficulty and how hard it is to achieve the score, the second one isn't used in pp calculations.

Tess wrote:

You're underestimating how hard it is to get a 2K+ combo. And, for that matter, anyone saying that World's End is overrated is /completely/ ignoring the ridiculously long spaced streams, the constant jumps that can sometimes get pretty damn big and the fact that it's a 6 minute+ beatmap. It is not overrated at all.
and you're underestimating the significance of 350+ PP. that's probably one of the easiest score Rucker has achieved on his top 10 yet it gives more pp than almost all of them.
Nyxa

Riince wrote:

this is still not a play-style that should be promoted. it isn't fun or interesting, and because it doesn't make the song harder in any technical aspect it provides a negligible pp bonus like hidden and that's how it should be. there's a difference between a maps difficulty and how hard it is to achieve the score, the second one isn't used in pp calculations.
This is a really stupid thing to say, though. First of all, whether it's fun or interesting or not depends largely on the player. A lot of things that I find fun other players find unnecessarily hard or tedious, and vice versa. That doesn't change the fact that those maps deserve to be rewarded. Also, it does make the map harder because it makes it harder to read. That a map isn't faster or the map's settings don't change doesn't mean that it's not harder when you make 90% of it fucking invisible. Lastly, this line is particularly dumb

Riince wrote:

there's a difference between a maps difficulty and how hard it is to achieve the score
I think you're confusing subjective difficulty with objective difficulty. Yes, if you happen to have trouble with squares, nailing a square jump in an easy map won't give you any pp, despite that score being difficult to achieve for you. But FL is difficult for everyone. Just like DT/HR aren't mods that just anyone can perform well with. So the difficulty in FL should give a significant pp bonus, especially since most players can't even play with it. People only hate FL because they suck at it, because it is hard.

Riince wrote:

and you're underestimating the significance of 350+ PP. that's probably one of the easiest score Rucker has achieved on his top 10 yet it gives more pp than almost all of them.
This doesn't nullify my statement, though. I said you're underestimating how hard the map is and you say you're not, but don't really give any reasonable explanation as to why. "It's the easiest score Rucker achieved on his top 10" - but what makes it easier? What about this map is easier than the others he played that gave him equal or less pp? Unless you actually answer that you're not really saying anything at all.
Drezi
I think the main point is that FL shouldn't be made necessary by rewarding it too much, just because it's hard. By that logic you could make a mod where there's no sound at all, and only a black screen, so FC-ing a map like that would be insanely hard, but should that style of play be promoted by giving it insanely high rewards?

You see getting good FL scores requires specific practice on the given map, while learning the other mods gives you the ability to play them on any map, so it would be bad for everyone if getting high ranks would require you to practice individual maps with FL, instead of focusing on improving your general skillset.
Vuelo Eluko

Drezi wrote:

You see getting good FL scores requires specific practice on the given map, while learning the other mods gives you the ability to play them on any map, so it would be bad for everyone if getting high ranks would require you to practice individual maps with FL, instead of focusing on improving your general skillset.
more or less what i meant by "not a play-style that should be promoted", thank you for saying this
Nyxa
I understand your points, but it remains a fact that FL is a mod within the game and FL is difficult. The ability to memorize a map and FC it with FL (with decent accuracy) is just as much skill as any other osu skill (reading, accuracy, consistency, stamina, etc.). Since it is in the game, and it is difficult, it should be rewarded. If you think it shouldn't be in the game you should consult peppy, rather than not rewarding players for their skill and effort. Keep in mind - pp is short for performance points. This means that your rank is based on your performances and not your skill.

Let's take a hypothetical situation where a lower ranked player (30-50K), by pure luck, SSes Freedom Dive. Now, obviously this is not possible, but let's say that there is a 1 in 100 quadrillion chance that somebody SSes Four Dimensions by pure luck, rather than skill. They would still receive the same pp that a skilled player would for that play, because they're judged by their performance and NOT by their skill. So, regardless of how often you need to practice a map, if you achieve a score that others can't achieve easily, you should be rewarded for that performance, just like with any other mod.

Discouraging repeated practice on the same map is like discouraging osu. rrtyui played Big Black around 3000 times before SS-ing it. Does that make his SS any less impressive? And does the fact that he played it that often (because it's a difficult map) mean that his score shouldn't be rewarded?


The answer is no
Drezi
Well sure, but you have to admit that there's still a difference between having to retry a lot to be able to play a map with FL, vs retying a lot until you make a better play on a map you can already do. In the first case you probably don't have technical difficulties with the map, but still you have to retry a lot to memorize it no matter what, while in the second case you're just retrying to set a score that's slightly above the usual, average level of your play, and you could set the same score later after improving some, without having to retry as much.
Topic Starter
Tom94
FlashLight currently gives a whopping 50% pp bonus on aim pp. That means on an aim-heavy map you can expect around 25% more total pp compared to a non-FL play with the same outcome. I wouldn't call that low or underrated.

The main problem with FL scores is that they usually are way sub-par compared to the same player's other best performances.
CXu
You should buff FL more so I get more pp from doing nothing.

Playing FL does make you better at playing FL, though. You basically get better at reading follow points and predicting/guessing right, and aiming at nothing (which btw, is harder than aiming at something). It still requires a bunch of retries though.

Oh yeah and accuracy tends to be harder because your mind is focused on recalling parts of the map rather than paying attention to when to click.
Nyxa
.
-Soba-
I feel like the difference between OD7, OD8, and OD9 for accuracy pp is too large. There's basically no difference between OD7 and OD8, and OD9 isn't that much harder. I don't think high OD's should be worth any more, but I think the lower OD's shouldn't be worth so much less.
Nyxa

-Soba- wrote:

I feel like the difference between OD7, OD8, and OD9 for accuracy pp is too large. There's basically no difference between OD7 and OD8, and OD9 isn't that much harder. I don't think high OD's should be worth any more, but I think the lower OD's shouldn't be worth so much less.
From the wiki


I disagree.
-Soba-

Tess wrote:

-Soba- wrote:

I feel like the difference between OD7, OD8, and OD9 for accuracy pp is too large. There's basically no difference between OD7 and OD8, and OD9 isn't that much harder. I don't think high OD's should be worth any more, but I think the lower OD's shouldn't be worth so much less.
From the wiki


I disagree.
even if the windows for getting 300 is smaller, most people are already clicking well within the OD8 window in OD7 anyway is the point I was making. I don't think OD8 maps should give so much more pp for free just because they're OD8.
Vuelo Eluko
personally i get around 99-100% on od7 and around 96-97 on od8 because im no accuracy player so im unsure what 'most people' are, unless its just people much better than me [like you] and obviously there are less of those than the other way around so i dont see why people who are more accurate shouldnt be rewarded for their accuracy.
GhostFrog
In the absence of per-hitobject data, the pp calculation system can't distinguish between someone who SSed an OD7 map by using the entire 300 window and someone who would have SSed the map even if it was OD9 - pp calculations can't assume you're hitting "well within the OD8 window in OD7". If you're capable of SSing OD8 maps, then doing so will get you the extra pp that the lenient timing window of OD7 cheated you out of.

There are definitely people out there who have noticeably worse accuracy on OD8 than on OD7 (Edit: Hi Riince!). They feel the same to you because you find both of them so easy.
Nyxa
I can get >99% with OD9.8 maps and around 97-98% with OD10 and I still notice a difference between OD7/8/9/10. If you don't notice a difference you're just not paying attention. Even if you're a high accuracy player, if you try SSing 10 OD7 maps and then 10 OD8 maps subsequently, I can guarantee you that the 10 OD8 maps will take longer. Try it and prove me wrong.
-Soba-
Maybe I was assuming too much to say most players, sorry. And sure I'll prove you wrong later Tess if you really want me to.
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