Ataman wrote:

There are people who play for fun, not for practice and highscore. Trying to hit silent notes is not fun.

silent notes???
i play without hitsounds with a fully transparent 300.png and i barely ever have trouble with the first note when playing with hidden.
and yes, i also play for fun. so imo, this isn't needed at all

[CSGA]Ar3sgice wrote:

retry.

that's all

^yeah Agree to the above


I can not agree this requests. I even the first play, it possible hit in the feeling, it is fact experience. I think this will be a factor lowering the clear level of hidden.

Yeah, it will lower the difficulty of hidden-mode a lot if the very first note of hundreds remains visible.
Whoa, I'm so stupid, thinking this community could be any more reasonable than others.

I didn't see one single counter-argument till now. Looks like this gets buried again without proper discussion. gj

Ataman wrote:

Yeah, it will lower the difficulty of hidden-mode a lot if the very first note of hundreds remains visible.
Whoa, I'm so stupid, thinking this community could be any more reasonable than others.

I didn't see one single counter-argument till now. Looks like this gets buried again without proper discussion. gj

It needs no discussion. The request is somewhat reasonable, but not at all plausible. Sure, it could make things easier, but that doesn't at all make it necessary and neither viable. Just retry up until you get it right. Its not that big of a deal, and certainly isn't a widespread enough "issue" for such drastic measures. You can't expect something to be made easier simply because its too hard for somebody.

I could see this being a bit disorienting. Like, it'd be a brief mental switch from nomod to hidden mode. Then I'd probably occasionally get a 100 on the second circle instead of the first.

I guess that point considered, things are probably better off the way they are in that regard. At least to me.

Ataman wrote:

Another solution for those who don't like the approach circle: You could make the BPM somehow visible or even audible at start. The mainscreen is a perfect example for it. Draw a transparent circle on the screen, let it beat to the BPM at start.

This is a pretty cool idea. It could be something subtle, even, like a slight lighting effect in the background or something that lasts for a measure before the first circle appears. Basically like the countdown but not as big or loud.

Where is this going?? Having an approach circle to indicate the first sounds like something that would throw me off, especially knowing that circle sizes vary from map to map.

Thinking about it further, metronome or forced countdown would be out of the question. I would instead suggest something that involves the pie-bar or HP bar since they both tell you how much time you have until the beatmap starts, except the HP bar fails to do so when skipping to the start of a song due to long intro. Ideas anyone?

I think this should be addressed.
I've seen it too often where you literally need to guess when to hit the first node, both from myself and from watching other people.

Some songs start by having complete silence until the first node. Not that that's bad, but even with 100 retries you can still get it wrong a lot.

I feel this kills the song if you have to retry several times before you can finally start.

Learn to play the song before you try it with Hidden. If you can't read the approach rate even at the first circle, then you shouldn't be playing Hidden.

I can play on hidden just fine after the first circle on songs with a silent start, and even get the first circle after breaks, but this is literally guesswork.

I just watched a stream of a person playing hidden and got SS, while trying to improve his spinners after every retry, but each time he played he had to retry like 10 times because he couldn't get the first circle right.

Why you'd want a rhythm game to have a flaw like that is beyond me...

My argument is that the issue is not just with the first circle, but maps can have this problem through the whole map such is the case with most Easy difficulties that are mapped in 2/1. It's not guess work, it's reading the fade work. If one has a problem reading the first circle of a map, that person will fare no better in a slow Easy without double time enabled.

I see it more of a player problem rather than a game problem.


I don't support this idea, but it doesn't really bother me if it were implemented.

Hidden should be hidden simply lisen to the song and press that first note like a sir

I don't think you get the point. There is no music until the first circle; there's nothing to listen to. All you get is a sudden flashing node.
Ofcourse only some songs are like that.

Look at the timer. It will indicate when to hit the first circle

Never mind, I guess I'm the only one who sees how impractical this is.

Valentiino wrote:

Look at the timer. It will indicate when to hit the first circle

Yes, because everyone wants to look at a pie chart in the corner of their screen just to be able to hit the first note with SOME consistency.

I support this feature.

Supporting only for songs with lead-in set.

Really guys, learn to play :<
You can read fading circles the same way you can read approach circles.

i can read when to click the first note in hidden when its the first sound of the song, but it requires some concentration.
basically what tshemmp said

HD + HR should be fine

I see how problematic the first note can be on hidden but I don't think an approach circle is the way to go. Hidden wouldn't be called hidden. There ought to be a better solution...

support~

yeah i hate retrying 5 times to get the first hit 300

Support.

It would make it look very inconsistent. You should be able to improve your skill to know when to press without any guidelines, in most cases this isn't even needed. Just retry a couple of times.

Hidden mod is meant to increase difficulty, having the first approach circle visible will reduce it, and a lot in many maps.
If you get mad for getting a 100 in the first note a lot of times while retrying, then keep retrying, play the song without HD at least once to "memorize", or don't use it at all.
I love HD mod as it is now, even for songs without lead-in music, makes it more challenging.
Just asking for something that would make easier a mod that is supposed to be hard an challenging doesn't make sense.

DakeDekaane wrote:

Hidden mod is meant to increase difficulty, having the first approach circle visible will reduce it, and a lot in many maps.
If you get mad for getting a 100 in the first note a lot of times while retrying, then keep retrying, play the song without HD at least once to "memorize", or don't use it at all.
I love HD mod as it is now, even for songs without lead-in music, makes it more challenging.
Just asking for something that would make easier a mod that is supposed to be hard an challenging doesn't make sense.

pretty much this. so tempted to just deny this now ._.

Shiro wrote:

The fade-in of the note acts as an approach circle. With enough experience, you'll learn to read this as well as an approach circle. This isn't needed.

The timing isn't always consistent, though. Maps have differing approach rates, which also affects Hidden.

Teraku wrote:

Shiro wrote:

The fade-in of the note acts as an approach circle. With enough experience, you'll learn to read this as well as an approach circle. This isn't needed.

The timing isn't always consistent, though. Maps have differing approach rates, which also affects Hidden.

Yeah, either AR8 or AR9. It's not many to choose from. If you're good enough you should be able to adapt very quickly anyway.

I wonder what the purpose of hidden really is: learning to read fading hitcircles or learing to follow the flow of the music WITHOUT reading any circles.
If it's the latter, I think this can help improving it.

yoyomster wrote:

I wonder what the purpose of hidden really is: learning to read fading hitcircles or learing to follow the flow of the music WITHOUT reading any circles.
If it's the latter, I think this can help improving it.

i think the purpose is just to make the beatmap the little bit harder :/

yoyomster wrote:

I wonder what the purpose of hidden really is: learning to read fading hitcircles or learning to follow the flow of the music WITHOUT reading any circles.
If it's the latter, I think this can help improving it.

both

DakeDekaane wrote:

Hidden mod is meant to increase difficulty, having the first approach circle visible will reduce it, and a lot in many maps.
If you get mad for getting a 100 in the first note a lot of times while retrying, then keep retrying, play the song without HD at least once to "memorize", or don't use it at all.
I love HD mod as it is now, even for songs without lead-in music, makes it more challenging.
Just asking for something that would make easier a mod that is supposed to be hard an challenging doesn't make sense.

this.

Learn to read the AR. I sometimes have similar problems, but if I actually focus on the circle, I can get it right.
this is just another "make it easier cuz' I can't do it" request IMO.

While I don't mind reading the timing for the first circle, I do admit that it's an annoyance sometimes.

Let's put the "inconsistent look" aside for a sec and look at this from another angle. The OP's intention is aimed at the first circle that needs to be hit without aid of music. OSU is a rythmn game after all so having to side-read or even memorise the timing of the first note is somewhat against the theme of the game. I remember in another recent thread about "playing with music off," in which many community members expressed their dislikes for this mode of play. The first circle with a silent intro is essentially the same thing - relying ONLY on your eyes to catch the beat. I think we need to give this problem more thought.

The first circle with silent intro is different from the circle immediately after a break, since the player can time it with the aid of music for the latter. IMO I think having some sort of timing aid for hidden mode with silent intro will reduce reliance on eyes/memorisation and should be considered seriously. If an approach circle looks inconsistent, then alternatives can be considered, such as do a countdown on the first circle (so instead of "1," it will read "3" "2" "1" "Go" and then the usual "1"). I'm sure there are better ideas out there but the bottom line is, having some sort of indication will be nice. Just my 2 cents.

EDIT: Here's a good read on Fake Difficulty. No offence intended to any community member, just something to consider.

^ That's a situation given by the mapper, not by the game itself, complain to them.

A countdown will be annoying each time you retry the map.

Oinari-sama wrote:

OSU is a rythmn game after all so having to side-read or even memorise the timing of the first note is somewhat against the theme of the game.

Well, one also have to memorize stacks and notes hidden by hitbursts, it's a very low sacrifice for a 1.06x multiplier.

If you have enough experience, looking at the timer or even memorize the timing of the 1st note isn't necessary, just watch the circle/slider and the fade out will do the rest, you only have to feel it, it's just practice.

I think the people who support this should just learn to play, you can't just change everything that you're not good at

What Oinari-sama said.
Didn't know there was a term for it, but fake difficulty is pretty much spot on.
Sure it's harder as it is, even if it's minuscule, but you could just as well give yourself other handicaps and play with no music if you want a challenge.

Avoiding flaws and implying people aren't good players or need training, because they'd rather avoid the "fake difficulty"; it's pretty apparent you're scared of change. Of-course you can state your opinion, but stop blaming other people for what you can't comprehend.

I'd like to quote myself.

Tshemmp wrote:

You can read fading circles the same way you can read approach circles.

This is basically the skill required for HD. If you can't do this you should learn it.

Tshemmp wrote:

I'd like to quote myself.

Tshemmp wrote:

You can read fading circles the same way you can read approach circles.

This is basically the skill required for HD. If you can't do this you should learn it.

I Agree with it.

theowest wrote:

yoyomster wrote:

I wonder what the purpose of hidden really is: learning to read fading hitcircles or learning to follow the flow of the music WITHOUT reading any circles.
If it's the latter, I think this can help improving it.

both

I have to call BS on that. The reading of the timing from fading circles is definitely not part of the purpose or design, it's just an emergent feature that happens to be an accepted way to cheat knowing how to play the map from the music alone, without timing information (which is fine). That really can't be part of the design, because that's the part that makes hidden become much easier with harder maps (so much so that sometimes hidden makes maps easier than without it).

So I really think that it's a serious consideration on whether there should be better signaling on the timing for the first circle of those songs where the map begins on the first audible note. After all, bands don't typically turn around and watch the drummer's hands so they can time their first note to the first drum hit. Beats are laid out... someone will count or one of the instruments will lead off and the others will join. In the recording studio, headphones are used with prerecorded tracks to play against or a metronome. So I don't see why osu players shouldn't get the beat laid out as well... certainly better than using the small, out of the way, lead time meter or timing from the disappearance of the circle, both of which almost never match the beat and thus just throw me off for the second and third notes because of the jerk and the offset. Because really, I'd rather play to the music's beat than sync to a timing that's offset and different from it.

That said, I don't think that showing an approach circle is the way to go. All that's really needed is to get the beat laid out for the tracks that need it, and that could just as well be done with the countdown or a metronome effect (either audible or visual in the background (eg a sweeping meter like the current lead in meter, but larger and centered in the play area so you don't have to look away for it)). Just give people the beat before the first note and let them count in their head for the first note.

^
Brilliant, getting a beat to listen to would be the best thing, I agree.

It seems that nobody read my last post, you really should learn to read all people's opinion, as I do. If you can't hit the first note well in a map in HD because there's no lead-in music, tell the mapper in the map's thread, don't complain of this as if it was an issue given by the mod.

Oblimix wrote:

Avoiding flaws and implying people aren't good players or need training, because they'd rather avoid the "fake difficulty"; it's pretty apparent you're scared of change.

Not scared, I'd feel offended as a HD player, it'd be like throwing my own effort and hours (minutes for me) of practicing the skill needed to the junkyard if something like what you ask for is added. Read my first paragraph again.

Also:

DakeDekaane wrote:

If you get mad for getting a 100 in the first note a lot of times while retrying, then keep retrying, play the song without HD at least once to "memorize", or don't use it at all.

I add 50/miss next to the 100

I'm so tempted to bring another mods here, but I won't. As far as I can see, you are annoyed for the amount of retries you do for hitting correctly the first note, that's a nice way to unlock the playcount achievements! something like showing a way to the first note it's pointless as there are stacks, and objects hidden by hitbursts. I still get annoyed by that, but I won't ask for making approach circles for those elements, I can live with it. What I recommend you is ask for an alternative mod to Hidden, as NC is for DT and PF is for SD, but I don't have any idea of how could it be, I left that to you.

can i just deny this now? or do you all wanna discuss this some more ._.

deadbeat wrote:

can i just deny this now? or do you all wanna discuss this some more ._.

Please do that finally. The topic of this thread is just a joke. A big, fat, unfunny joke.

i feel a lot better now.

anyway. there is enough reasoning in this thread to deny this. if you want to know why, read page 4. page 4 had pretty much the accurate reason for denying this :p

[invalid]

Sad... Very sad...

yeeeeeeees finally.
woo.

Not sure what peppy or the devs really thinks about this though.

This shouldn't get implemented. The hidden mod , like all the other mods are to show off you skills.
How it would be that hard rock would have the 1st bead in normal sise , or double time in normal time the first 10 secconds, or flashlisht would be full screen the 1st 5 secconds , pls no , this its supposed to show how good your skills are , not to make easyer get score

it won't be implemented, all ready denied

deadbeat wrote:

i feel a lot better now.

anyway. there is enough reasoning in this thread to deny this. if you want to know why, read page 4. page 4 had pretty much the accurate reason for denying this :p

Actually, that reason was totally weaksauce. A modification to help with the first beat of a song cannot change things to reduce difficulty "a lot in many maps", that is simply impossible. All it would do would help with one note, which would be easier to score a 300 instead of a 100, and at that point of the song, that's actually just a 200 point difference. It's not going to help with hitting any other note later on, so it can never be said to do "a lot" of anything, difficulty or score wise. The only "a lot" that applies is that it could reduce a lot of unnecessary frustration on some maps.

As for playing it once to "memorize"... well, see my post for why that's bull cookies. Yes, you can do that to learn the timing of the disappearance of circles to when you should hit that first note. However, that timing has nothing to do with the actual music. So all it serves to do is throw you off for the next note where you need to shift from an irrelevant timing to the actual beat. Learning to read the timing between the disappearance of a circle and when to hit it is something you can do, but it shouldn't be required because it's definitely not part of the original intent of hidden... or if it is, it only serves to make hidden easier on harder maps, which runs counter to it making things more challenging (like that post on page 4 says it should be).

But as I also said above, I don't think an approach circle is the solution. But I think it's important that the basic idea of laying out the beat in some way is a good one, and shouldn't be discarded.

Yet again osu! proves to be about skills that have nothing to do with following music. Wasn't this supposed to be a "rhythm game" or something? Having to guess the timing without any sort of audible clue is not rhythm game gameplay.

learn2play better