Ahmi wrote:

He will also have a score impossible to reach for a half-time player. So what? Should we also bump HT's score modifier? I don't think so.
Also, I fail to understand something. What's a "4k player"? A player who refuses to play using more keys, and therefore limiting himself? That's like a "normal player" who refuses to play any difficulties besides normal. Of course, he has the right to do so, but he shouldn't expect to compete with players who don't limit themselves.

A 4k player is simply someone who may mainly play 4k maps. I'm a 4k player and I do play 6k and 7k, but as I have played DDR and Stepmania for several years I am most comfortable with 4k.

Ahmi wrote:

Should we also bump HT's score modifier? I don't think so.

That is a gross comparison.

While 7k is indeed harder than 4k, 4k is still difficult in a lot of cases such as the map I specified. 4K plays were at a score mod of 0.90x before, which I feel was perfectly fair.

Besides, HT's score mod WAS bumped from 0.30x to 0.50x.

Ahmi wrote:

he shouldn't expect to compete with players who don't limit themselves.

I reiterate, 4k play is hardly limiting yourself when the gameplay is still quite difficult. You likely aren't going to see just player 100%ing insanes like Remilia-Scarlet, Entozer or, to a lesser degree, myself - unless they are very experienced players. This will hold true regardless of keycount, which is why it is difficult to decide on a proper and fair scoremod for each keycount.

Perhaps keep the score reduction at 0.80x for easy - hard maps, and returning it to 0.90x for insanes? This would prevent effortless 4k top scores on easier stuff, but let all keycounts shine on maps which will require much skill regardless - to even out the playfield a little more.

Again, just some thoughts. You probably think I'm an idiot

In terms of conversion everything on 4k is way easier then 7k. And it's very obvious.
But when custom maps start coming out the story has possibilities of changing. But what is standard on o2jam is a pretty high tier on stepmania.
But we'll have to see how the ranking criteria rolls out. (I can assure you all your crazy overcharted simfiles/o2jam files won't be close to rankable. osu!mania will have it's own way of establishing difficulty.)

So for the time being I think the multipliers are good and I agree with peppy's idea of "A new environment".
This is osu!mania not Stepmania/o2jam/IIDX, get used to it.

But I'm moved (though not
yet fully) in o!m from DJMAX
and I do not do everything
exactly how many keys to
play: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8... Yes, even
the like a Space Mix 8 + 8! The most
important thing to make it all
good mapped. From my
own experience I say that is
not always more keys = more
difficult. Just try it for yourself
to play DMTR. (DJMAX:
Trilogy)

peppy wrote:

Assuming playing with more than listed keys doesn't ever decrease difficulty (please cite cases if you found any where this is not true), then the negative multiplier could in fact be removed in the case of higher key counts.

I find 6K easier than 5K (when using symmetrical controls), but that might be because I'm not used to having space as the middle button yet.

DJKero wrote:

It's really pointless if Newbie Beatgamers start to say their opinion and we take them in count... the amateurs and pros, we all know that -K need a Multiplier Reduce and +K a Multiplier Boost...

You're an idiot.

Ahmi wrote:

What's a "4k player"? A player who refuses to play using more keys, and therefore limiting himself? That's like a "normal player" who refuses to play any difficulties besides normal. Of course, he has the right to do so, but he shouldn't expect to compete with players who don't limit themselves.

You're also an idiot.

A 4k player plays 4k because he/she enjoys that style of play, not to limit themselves. For me right now, due to controls (I'm used to TR) 5/7k is incredibly difficult and 8k is just retarded. (Support this thread)

peppy wrote:

osu!mania is not here to provide rankings per source game (4K / ddr, 5+1K 7+1K / beamni iidx, 6K 8K o2jam etc.). It is a new environment with new standards and new conditions on how to get the best score. Deal with it, or play osu!mania specific maps only, where you can be sure they are made for your accustomed environment.

So will mania specific maps with only mania difficulties be accepted for ranking?


OT: While I don't agree the score should be reduced at all, .85 for all key mods that aren't default and 1 for default seems fair to me. While higher key mods might be harder due to more keys, they are also more spread out and easier to read as opposed to lower key mods. Since specific maps are locked to the key level the mapper wants I don't see why it should be any lower than .85 for maps where the key amount was set automatically by osu!.

DJKero wrote:

It's really pointless if Newbie Beatgamers start to say their opinion and we take them in count... the amateurs and pros, we all know that...

I'm sorry, but that has to be one of the most arrogant and elitist things I've seen in this forum board (and I already view this community as an elitist one to some extent unfortunately and it still bugs me a bit) Anyways, if anything, we're in desperate need of the opinions of newbies, everyone starts out as one and if we make things discouraging for them, then it is much harder for osu to grow both as a game and as a community. It's refreshing to hear the opinions of lesser skilled players in the forums, a lot of lesser skilled players are too intimidated by the "godlike" players that participate actively in the forums and thus are too scared to share their thoughts; anything we can do to relieve this anxiety more would be beneficial towards the osu game and community.

I think osu!mania should be unranked

Or maybe it should just rather be removed

Actually I don't even care the slightest about osu!mania as I have beatmania IIDX and DJMAX Trilogy, so don't mind me

Lno wrote:

Ahmi wrote:

What's a "4k player"? A player who refuses to play using more keys, and therefore limiting himself? That's like a "normal player" who refuses to play any difficulties besides normal. Of course, he has the right to do so, but he shouldn't expect to compete with players who don't limit themselves.

You're also an idiot.

A 4k player plays 4k because he/she enjoys that style of play, not to limit themselves. For me right now, due to controls (I'm used to TR) 5/7k is incredibly difficult and 8k is just retarded. (Support this thread)

So, if someone plays only normal difficulties, because he enjoys that style of play, he should be able to compete with people who play insane difficulties, because playing insane maps is for him incredibly difficult?
You just need to get used to new controls if you want to play seriously. And if you don't, then why do you care about score?
For example, in Taiko, you usually start playing it with just one hand, and the transition to two hands is very difficult. But should such a player be able to compete with those, who learned to play properly? I don't think so. You just need to learn new controls. It might take some time, but definitely less than starting from a scratch, and that way you'll be playing against other people on equal terms.
It should be expected of a mod which makes the game easier to give less points. It doesn't matter if you use it because you enjoy that. There are people who enjoy playing on relax, but do you really think they also should be able to compete with regular players? And if not, what makes it so different? Both mods make the game easier.

Ahmi wrote:

So, if someone plays only normal difficulties, because he enjoys that style of play, he should be able to compete with people who play insane difficulties, because playing insane maps is for him incredibly difficult?
You just need to get used to new controls if you want to play seriously. And if you don't, then why do you care about score?
For example, in Taiko, you usually start playing it with just one hand, and the transition to two hands is very difficult. But should such a player be able to compete with those, who learned to play properly? I don't think so. You just need to learn new controls. It might take some time, but definitely less than starting from a scratch, and that way you'll be playing against other people on equal terms.
It should be expected of a mod which makes the game easier to give less points. It doesn't matter if you use it because you enjoy that. There are people who enjoy playing on relax, but do you really think they also should be able to compete with regular players? And if not, what makes it so different? Both mods make the game easier.

I think the main argument here is that less keys =/= easier in every case, thus if a map is a kmap by default a (=/=k)map could either be easier or harder and whether it's easier or harder isn't something objective, it differs from person to person. For example, try imagining playing Chipscape on 1K, doesn't sound so easy now does it? I'm just stating some observations though, I'm still on the fence on how I'd like to see this problem be solved...

benguin wrote:

I think the main argument here is that less keys =/= easier in every case, thus if a map is a kmap by default a (=/=k)map could either be easier or harder and whether it's easier or harder isn't something objective, it differs from person to person. For example, try imagining playing Chipscape on 1K, doesn't sound so easy now does it? I'm just stating some observations though, I'm still on the fence on how I'd like to see this problem be solved...

It's almost always easier to play with less keys if we only consider the available options. There's no 1K mod, so that's pretty silly argument.
The closest thing to decreasing keys in osu! standard would be the easy mod. It sometimes makes everything messy, but that's not a reason to get rid of score modifier.
A 7K difficulty converted to 4K is almost always (if not always) going to be easier, and that's why it needs a modifier. And in these rare cases where it could get harder, it would be most likely because of everything getting messy and unreadable.

Its unfair for the players if the scoring multiplier for 4K is greater than 8K.... Basically... Its more effort to play 8K because it uses 8 of your fingers compared to 4K....
It is insane... but I more prefer this:

Kazuo wrote:

why not ranking boards for each keys?

Make a ranking boards for each keys...

I just turned on Osu today and my 4k is now insanely fast. I'm a 4key player. (And YES I read the entire thread about how I'm not challenging myself)

I love playing hard songs tuned down to 4key. I have lots of fun. But as of today, 08 NOV, every song that I try and play modded down to 4key seems like it has double time. It's entirely unplayable because its so fast. Is this a change? My OSU didn't update. (I also noticed the score modifiers are different.)

Summary: I like playing HARD (not the difficulty, the play style which includes Insane) 7/8key songs tuned down (because I LOVE 4key) and now they are on afterburner. Why am I being penalized?

Anticipate wrote:

Kazuo wrote:

why not ranking boards for each keys?

too epic.

SOOOOOOO EPIC. I can't Imagine...

Ahmi wrote:

benguin wrote:

I think the main argument here is that less keys =/= easier in every case, thus if a map is a kmap by default a (=/=k)map could either be easier or harder and whether it's easier or harder isn't something objective, it differs from person to person. For example, try imagining playing Chipscape on 1K, doesn't sound so easy now does it? I'm just stating some observations though, I'm still on the fence on how I'd like to see this problem be solved...

It's almost always easier to play with less keys if we only consider the available options. There's no 1K mod, so that's pretty silly argument.
The closest thing to decreasing keys in osu! standard would be the easy mod. It sometimes makes everything messy, but that's not a reason to get rid of score modifier.
A 7K difficulty converted to 4K is almost always (if not always) going to be easier, and that's why it needs a modifier. And in these rare cases where it could get harder, it would be most likely because of everything getting messy and unreadable.

Your argument about my argument being silly is silly in itself. Hypothetical situations are used all the time for arguments and analogies all the time. The validity of either of our points wouldn't change if peppy decided to implement 1K/2K/3K right now. Also, the analogy you use with easy mod also isn't really a good analogy. Easy mod only subjectively makes things look messy and difficult to read for some players on some maps, putting easy mod doesn't objectively make things look messy. On the other hand, with osu!mania, it is an objective fact that if you play a 7K map with 4K mod, the amount of effort needed per finger is almost doubled; to be more precise, the average notes-per-second-per-finger count is almost doubled in value. What it comes down to really is a fine balance between control and effort distribution. Too many keys will cause people to start to lose control, too little keys will result in too much effort/pressure per finger. Where that boundary between too little and too many keys is different for every person, there is no objective way of saying xK is the easiest. If you want, I could go into more detail, but let other people respond first before I get too carried away.

Tanomoshii Nekojou wrote:

Basically... Its more effort to play high bpm streams on osu! standard with 2 keys because it uses 2 of your fingers compared to 1....

rip single tappers (I hope you guys see where I'm going with this)

benguin wrote:

I just said a lot of stuff.

Basically, less keys (whether it's 1K or 2K or 4K, whatever) increase the amount of jacks (repeated presses of the same key) which is one of the hardest things I know in rhythm games. So benguin has got a point.

But Ahmi is right about the fact that that IN MOST CASES less keys is a lot easier. 4K is more like a reaction test compared to 7K, unless we talk about the truly insane maps.

peppy wrote:

Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse.

There's currently no reason to play 8k ranked. It's irrelevant in competition.

akirashiji wrote:

I just turned on Osu today and my 4k is now insanely fast. I'm a 4key player. (And YES I read the entire thread about how I'm not challenging myself)

I love playing hard songs tuned down to 4key. I have lots of fun. But as of today, 08 NOV, every song that I try and play modded down to 4key seems like it has double time. It's entirely unplayable because its so fast. Is this a change? My OSU didn't update. (I also noticed the score modifiers are different.)

Summary: I like playing HARD (not the difficulty, the play style which includes Insane) 7/8key songs tuned down (because I LOVE 4key) and now they are on afterburner. Why am I being penalized?

You probably have watched a replay in which the player used a higher scrolling speed, or whatever it's called. Hint: you can change it with F3 and F4 when playing (F3 makes it faster, F4 slower).

benguin wrote:

A very long post there.

OK then, I'll be clear. Your 1K example was silly because the game's goal itself changes there. The only thing being tested would be how fast you can press the button. And if you allow an alternate key (like now you can have two keys bound for the centre key), then I'll say it as a former Taiko player: it would be MUCH, much easier, if not trivial.
I'm not sure how the algorithm works, so I might be wrong there, but I think that if two beats next to each other are played by different fingers on the original key number, the algorithm will never force them to be played by one finger after lowering the key number. At least that's what would make the most sense, otherwise it would clearly be stupid, since it would sometimes force players to play 1/8 or 1/4 with very high BPM with one finger, which would make the song impossible.
Assuming what I said is true (and it probably is), you will never be forced to play notes too quickly with one finger, and as long as you don't need to use one finger consecutively, it's fine, and therefore "notes per finger" thing doesn't matter at all.


And to the people who want separate ranking boards for each key number, it's unlikely it will ever happen. It would require every ranked osu!mania beatmap's difficulty to be good enough for every key number, and also would require BATs to do much more work. Instead of checking, for example 4 difficulties, they would have to check 20 difficulties (each difficulty on each key setting). And also, there would probably be far too few scores for certain K's. If I had to guess, 5K scoreboards would be almost empty.

Ahmi wrote:

Assuming what I said is true (and it probably is), you will never be forced to play notes too quickly with one finger, and as long as you don't need to use one finger consecutively, it's fine, and therefore "notes per finger" thing doesn't matter at all.

These notes are called 'jackhammers' or shorthand 'jacks' and actually happen often in some maps; especially more often in 4k - go play Scarlet Rose!

Ahmi wrote:

Instead of checking, for example 4 difficulties, they would have to check 20 difficulties (each difficulty on each key setting).

For osu!mania specific map, last I checked you can't change the keycount from the decided amount by the map. This is different on conversion from standard, since standard is already just an auto generated chart from the map, but a mania specific difficulty was actually MADE for a certain keycount, and cannot be changed.

I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate, I'm still quite on the fence about how I'd like to see this issue be resolved.

Anyways, about the thing concerning 1K, I guess the question becomes how many keys can you take way before osumania isn't osumania anymore? 1K and K might be pushing it but I think 3K doesn't seem too unreasonable.

Let me make an argument concerning jacks. In many osumania maps, there are series of consectutive jumps (some rhythm gaming communities call these jumpgluts) I also play a 4K rhythm game called FFR, and I hate jumpgluts because of the fact that jacks are my weakest point and jumpgluts on 4K have a lot of forced jacks. However, this isn't the case so much for 7K or 8K. Basically, if you are playing nK, and you come across one of these jumpgluts, whenever you hit a jump, the probability that the next jump will make you hit a forced jack is (2n-3)/{n!/[2*(n-2)!]}. This equates to 5/6 probability on 4K (almost 100%!) and only 13/28 probability on 8K (not even 50%). As n approaches infinity, the probability of a forced jack in nK approaches 0.

benguin is a smarty

please bring lower key mods up to 0.90 or 0.85 at the least THANKS

Bites wrote:

Ahmi wrote:

Assuming what I said is true (and it probably is), you will never be forced to play notes too quickly with one finger, and as long as you don't need to use one finger consecutively, it's fine, and therefore "notes per finger" thing doesn't matter at all.

These notes are called 'jackhammers' or shorthand 'jacks' and actually happen often in some maps; especially more often in 4k - go play Scarlet Rose!

So I was wrong. In that case, the system which "downscales" songs needs to be remade. I don't think that a system which forces a player to use only one finger to play a quick stream of notes on high BPM (for example, 1/4 in 200 BPM would be already too fast) is a good system.

Bites wrote:

Ahmi wrote:

Instead of checking, for example 4 difficulties, they would have to check 20 difficulties (each difficulty on each key setting).

For osu!mania specific map, last I checked you can't change the keycount from the decided amount by the map. This is different on conversion from standard, since standard is already just an auto generated chart from the map, but a mania specific difficulty was actually MADE for a certain keycount, and cannot be changed.

I see.There's still one more problem, a more important one. Take any random osu! map, and look at the taiko scoreboard. Unless the song is popular, you'll see C's and B's in top 40, which means that there are few people who play them, while on taiko-specific maps there usually are mostly S's, or in case of harder ones, A's. Once there are enough osu!mania specific maps, that will happen - there will be few players on the scoreboards, since most people will play osu!mania specific maps. And now if we split them into 5 separate scoreboards... You can imagine what would happen. Getting first rank on any beatmap besides the popular ones, like Bad Apple, won't be any achievement.