TheVileOne wrote:

I would agree that if all higher keys had 1.0x with no benefits once so ever, I would support this. That would indicate that increasing the key count is due to personal preference and it is.

The thing is that there's a rule in balancing games... if you give the player a lot of control over something, you need to assume that they'll use it to make their life easier. Even if it could be used to make things harder, it's known that increasing this can also make things easier (the fact that people talk about wanting to play at their "preference" level is proof of this... there's also the issue of parity, 6K will be easier than 5K to someone who hates odd parity). And so the safe course of action is to assume that even if someone does use the Kmods to increase the number of keys, that the map is now easier for them and should score a bit less than if they played it without being able to select their preference.

I have one question though, because these maps makes me really question how the system decides the keycount to use.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/37065

Why is this map 6k? It's far harder than many of the maps I've played that default to 7k.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/47710

Why is the 0108 difficulty 5k?

Is mystery.

bwross wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

I would agree that if all higher keys had 1.0x with no benefits once so ever, I would support this. That would indicate that increasing the key count is due to personal preference and it is.

The thing is that there's a rule in balancing games... if you give the player a lot of control over something, you need to assume that they'll use it to make their life easier. Even if it could be used to make things harder, it's known that increasing this can also make things easier (the fact that people talk about wanting to play at their "preference" level is proof of this... there's also the issue of parity, 6K will be easier than 5K to someone who hates odd parity). And so the safe course of action is to assume that even if someone does use the Kmods to increase the number of keys, that the map is now easier for them and should score a bit less than if they played it without being able to select their preference.

That shouldn't be an issue, because you're claiming that because it's easier to play on 6 key instead of 5 key for some people, because they prefer to play it that way will create some sort of advantage and it wouldn't. 6K > Harder to max no matter how you look at it and in 99% of mania conversions the set key is easier than all higher key versions.

And the important thing to note is that there is NO benefit to increasing the key count other than personal preference. It would make a lot of players happy if they could play with the keycount they want on the maps they want (as long as its higher) without penalty. If someone who is good at 5K comes along, they can match a player playing with 6K, 7K etc, because they are all worth the same amount of points in the long run. It doesn't matter what key you choose if it's higher. The rankings shouldn't be divided by who's good at this key or that key, it should be who's good at this map or that map. There's no sense dividing the mania player base by key tolerance in the rankings.

Why punish the player because his favorite song doesn't translate into the key count he prefers?

Making a map that suits his key tolerance is not a good answer to this.

TheVileOne wrote:

That shouldn't be an issue, because you're claiming that because it's easier to play on 6 key instead of 5 key for some people, because they prefer to play it that way will create some sort of advantage and it wouldn't. 6K > Harder to max no matter how you look at it and in 99% of mania conversions the set key is easier than all higher key versions.

And the important thing to note is that there is NO benefit to increasing the key count other than personal preference. It would make a lot of players happy if they could play with the keycount they want on the maps they want (as long as its higher) without penalty. If someone who is good at 5K comes along, they can match a player playing with 6K, 7K etc, because they are all worth the same amount of points in the long run. It doesn't matter what key you choose if it's higher. The rankings shouldn't be divided by who's good at this key or that key, it should be who's good at this map or that map. There's no sense dividing the mania player base by key tolerance in the rankings.

Why punish the player because his favorite song doesn't translate into the key count he prefers?

Making a map that suits his key tolerance is not a good answer to this.

And I shall reiterate: lower keycounts than what is defined is still pretty well easier, so I support a small score decrease of 0.90x for lower keycounts and such.

Higher keycounts should perhaps not be penalized, though?

Bites wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

That shouldn't be an issue, because you're claiming that because it's easier to play on 6 key instead of 5 key for some people, because they prefer to play it that way will create some sort of advantage and it wouldn't. 6K > Harder to max no matter how you look at it and in 99% of mania conversions the set key is easier than all higher key versions.

And the important thing to note is that there is NO benefit to increasing the key count other than personal preference. It would make a lot of players happy if they could play with the keycount they want on the maps they want (as long as its higher) without penalty. If someone who is good at 5K comes along, they can match a player playing with 6K, 7K etc, because they are all worth the same amount of points in the long run. It doesn't matter what key you choose if it's higher. The rankings shouldn't be divided by who's good at this key or that key, it should be who's good at this map or that map. There's no sense dividing the mania player base by key tolerance in the rankings.

Why punish the player because his favorite song doesn't translate into the key count he prefers?

Making a map that suits his key tolerance is not a good answer to this.

And I shall reiterate: lower keycounts than what is defined is still pretty well easier, so I support a small score decrease of 0.90x for lower keycounts and such.

Higher keycounts should perhaps not be penalized, though?

I agree with this,
I'd prefer lower keycounts to have a smaller score multiplier and for higher keycounts, they should remain 1.0, because it's the user's preference to use a higher keycount.

TheVileOne wrote:

That shouldn't be an issue, because you're claiming that because it's easier to play on 6 key instead of 5 key for some people, because they prefer to play it that way will create some sort of advantage and it wouldn't. 6K > Harder to max no matter how you look at it and in 99% of mania conversions the set key is easier than all higher key versions.

The thing is that it isn't harder no matter how you look at it... in some ways it's easier. Like with AR, increasing things makes things harder, except in the ways that it makes them easier. Also note that what I said means that decreasing from 6K to 5K can make things more awkward and harder for some people. If you think that lower K is easier, and a map is rated lower K than you normally play... just play it at that K. Play the game. It's that simple. If you're not playing the game, just accept that you have to pay a little to get things your way and live with it.

And the important thing to note is that there is NO benefit to increasing the key count other than personal preference.

If it's to be nothing more than a preference, and not part of the game, then things are easy. All K levels should be worth 1.0x... up, down, doesn't matter. Let the pp algorithm decide if your nK play was worth significantly more or less on a mK rated map.

bwross wrote:

If it's to be nothing more than a preference, and not part of the game, then things are easy. All K levels should be worth 1.0x... up, down, doesn't matter. Let the pp algorithm decide if your nK play was worth significantly more or less on a mK rated map.

bwross wrote:

Let the pp algorithm decide if your nK play was worth significantly more or less on a mK rated map.

this doesn't sound like too bad of an idea, actually.. no score reduction, but perhaps playing with the amount of keys the map told you to play with gives more PP? idk >.<

Bites wrote:

Lno wrote:

I don't see why the decrease is there for lower keys. Just let people compete with the mode they're most comfortable with, why penalize them for playing the mode they enjoy.

Realistically, 4k IS easier than 7k.

Perhaps there are 4k players who disagree with that, but as a very experienced 4k player I feel like the score reduction is necessary.

It's A BIT too much to roll it down to 0.80x, however. 0.9x was fine. There are quite a few 7k players who are far more than capable of trashing my 4k scores, even if I did not have any score reduction on my 4k plays. With a reduction of 0.9x, if they're able to get very close to or past that 900,000 mark, I can guarantee that NO 4k player will be nomodding their way past your score. (Entozer FC'd freedom dive four dimensions on 7k, which I've been trying to do since way before mania was ranked)

I was happy with the 0.9x because that means I could've put on HR, and either DT or HD and gotten myself up to 1.00x! (Assuming the difficulty increase mods will work that way) That no longer seems like it'll be possible, though. It really does seem unfair to completely restrict a player's ability to achieve a good rank on a song because of how they may prefer to play.

I'd say, for keymods that decrease count, 0.90x. For keymods that either increase keycount, or decrease count but are one below the map's set keycount (7k down to 6k) 0.95x.

It's already practically impossible to get a high rank with 0.90x on anything easy to hard, and some insanes (that is, if the map has been played by more than ten people!). The only chance that, let's say, myself would have to get high ranks with 4k on any map, would be to play ridiculously hard files (Banned Forever, Freedom Dive FD) since I myself am capable of achieving 99% FC's on these maps - a feat that a lot of the newer 7k players cannot do. I've also been playing 4k for quite a long time.

I don't think people should expect to be beating high level 4k players on hard songs like Chipscape or Ascension to Heaven unless they really know what they're doing, and have been playing 7k for as long as those high level 4k players have been playing 4k. It seems absurd to restrict these skilled 4k players and pull them behind so many scores.

My two cents, and you'll probably all think I'm an idiot!

First two lines have the epic win...

It's really pointless if Newbie Beatgamers start to say their opinion and we take them in count... the amateurs and pros, we all know that -K need a Multiplier Reduce and +K a Multiplier Boost...

woc2006 is very stubborn thinking he's doing ALL right, also, peppy supports him instead of helping him to think a bit more on cold...

Stop your ego's a bit, we know that you're doing your best guys, but with nK and 1M Fixed Score you'll get hardcore beatgamers away of mania!...

peppy wrote:

Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse.

Peppy: It seems that you don't even have an idea of what you are talking about if you see the Separate Ranking Boards for Each Key Mode USELESS...

Would you like to have 5 beatmaps submitted for BAT aproval and ranking for each song beatmappers do?

Or you prefer to have 5 Separated Rank Boards for each native key mode?

Think of it, you'll not going to help mappers with this, because of the one's that know at least a lil of beatgames knows that a more keys mode needs to be separated of minus ones coz the Difficulty Gap between them is Really High...

Also take in count that if a mapper make a full beatmap of each keymode it'll be in queue a lot because of max beatmap submission for each user, there's a LOT of problems BIGGER than making a Code change and adding separated MySql or the DB's that you use for Osu! ranks...

It's REALLY A INFINITE BLACK HOLE THERE... Think of it. I'm sure you know that I'm not a freely talking stupid guy, I talking about incoming facts...

0.75x - n*0.05x (where n is the number of keys decreased) if you decrease the number of keys, 0.8x if you increase it.
For example, on a 7K song:
4K - 0.6x
5K - 0.65x
6K - 0.7x
7K - 1x
8K - 0.8x
That's my opinion on that matter.

Ahmi wrote:

0.75x - n*0.05x (where n is the number of keys decreased) if you decrease the number of keys, 0.8x if you increase it.
For example, on a 7K song:
4K - 0.6x
5K - 0.65x
6K - 0.7x
7K - 1x
8K - 0.8x
That's my opinion on that matter.

That is still absolutely unfair in a lot of situations with harder songs.

Go play the collab difficulty on "Nyanyanyanyanya" on any keycount. It's hard.

For a 4k player who does incredibly well on that song, they shouldn't have their score chopped down by that far! A 7k player who barely hits the 6m mark on points (about 60% accuracy) will have a score quite literally impossible for a 4k player to reach, even if they were to 100% the song with all rainbow 300s.

Bites wrote:

That is still absolutely unfair in a lot of situations with harder songs.

Go play the collab difficulty on "Nyanyanyanyanya" on any keycount. It's hard.

For a 4k player who does incredibly well on that song, they shouldn't have their score chopped down by that far! A 7k player who barely hits the 6m mark on points (about 60% accuracy) will have a score quite literally impossible for a 4k player to reach, even if they were to 100% the song with all rainbow 300s.

He will also have a score impossible to reach for a half-time player. So what? Should we also bump HT's score modifier? I don't think so.
Also, I fail to understand something. What's a "4k player"? A player who refuses to play using more keys, and therefore limiting himself? That's like a "normal player" who refuses to play any difficulties besides normal. Of course, he has the right to do so, but he shouldn't expect to compete with players who don't limit themselves.

DJKero wrote:

Would you like to have 5 beatmaps submitted for BAT aproval and ranking for each song beatmappers do?

Or you prefer to have 5 Separated Rank Boards for each native key mode?

I'll assume you are talking about osu!mania specific maps (maps made for osu!mania), in which case there would be separate difficulties (and rankings) for each difficulty/key combination.

For osu! standard conversions, a key mode is chosen by osu! per difficulty, which becomes the default. Other key modes can be chosen but receive a multiplier. You can still compete with others using your key mode, but you may not get #1 for the map. This is expected and correct behaviour in my mind.

osu!mania is not here to provide rankings per source game (4K / ddr, 5+1K 7+1K / beamni iidx, 6K 8K o2jam etc.). It is a new environment with new standards and new conditions on how to get the best score. Deal with it, or play osu!mania specific maps only, where you can be sure they are made for your accustomed environment.

The final multipliers aren't locked in, so this is subject to change. Assuming playing with more than listed keys doesn't ever decrease difficulty (please cite cases if you found any where this is not true), then the negative multiplier could in fact be removed in the case of higher key counts.

peppy wrote:

beamni iidx

LOL! xD

Ahmi wrote:

He will also have a score impossible to reach for a half-time player. So what? Should we also bump HT's score modifier? I don't think so.
Also, I fail to understand something. What's a "4k player"? A player who refuses to play using more keys, and therefore limiting himself? That's like a "normal player" who refuses to play any difficulties besides normal. Of course, he has the right to do so, but he shouldn't expect to compete with players who don't limit themselves.

A 4k player is simply someone who may mainly play 4k maps. I'm a 4k player and I do play 6k and 7k, but as I have played DDR and Stepmania for several years I am most comfortable with 4k.

Ahmi wrote:

Should we also bump HT's score modifier? I don't think so.

That is a gross comparison.

While 7k is indeed harder than 4k, 4k is still difficult in a lot of cases such as the map I specified. 4K plays were at a score mod of 0.90x before, which I feel was perfectly fair.

Besides, HT's score mod WAS bumped from 0.30x to 0.50x.

Ahmi wrote:

he shouldn't expect to compete with players who don't limit themselves.

I reiterate, 4k play is hardly limiting yourself when the gameplay is still quite difficult. You likely aren't going to see just player 100%ing insanes like Remilia-Scarlet, Entozer or, to a lesser degree, myself - unless they are very experienced players. This will hold true regardless of keycount, which is why it is difficult to decide on a proper and fair scoremod for each keycount.

Perhaps keep the score reduction at 0.80x for easy - hard maps, and returning it to 0.90x for insanes? This would prevent effortless 4k top scores on easier stuff, but let all keycounts shine on maps which will require much skill regardless - to even out the playfield a little more.

Again, just some thoughts. You probably think I'm an idiot

In terms of conversion everything on 4k is way easier then 7k. And it's very obvious.
But when custom maps start coming out the story has possibilities of changing. But what is standard on o2jam is a pretty high tier on stepmania.
But we'll have to see how the ranking criteria rolls out. (I can assure you all your crazy overcharted simfiles/o2jam files won't be close to rankable. osu!mania will have it's own way of establishing difficulty.)

So for the time being I think the multipliers are good and I agree with peppy's idea of "A new environment".
This is osu!mania not Stepmania/o2jam/IIDX, get used to it.

But I'm moved (though not
yet fully) in o!m from DJMAX
and I do not do everything
exactly how many keys to
play: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8... Yes, even
the like a Space Mix 8 + 8! The most
important thing to make it all
good mapped. From my
own experience I say that is
not always more keys = more
difficult. Just try it for yourself
to play DMTR. (DJMAX:
Trilogy)

peppy wrote:

Assuming playing with more than listed keys doesn't ever decrease difficulty (please cite cases if you found any where this is not true), then the negative multiplier could in fact be removed in the case of higher key counts.

I find 6K easier than 5K (when using symmetrical controls), but that might be because I'm not used to having space as the middle button yet.

DJKero wrote:

It's really pointless if Newbie Beatgamers start to say their opinion and we take them in count... the amateurs and pros, we all know that -K need a Multiplier Reduce and +K a Multiplier Boost...

You're an idiot.

Ahmi wrote:

What's a "4k player"? A player who refuses to play using more keys, and therefore limiting himself? That's like a "normal player" who refuses to play any difficulties besides normal. Of course, he has the right to do so, but he shouldn't expect to compete with players who don't limit themselves.

You're also an idiot.

A 4k player plays 4k because he/she enjoys that style of play, not to limit themselves. For me right now, due to controls (I'm used to TR) 5/7k is incredibly difficult and 8k is just retarded. (Support this thread)

peppy wrote:

osu!mania is not here to provide rankings per source game (4K / ddr, 5+1K 7+1K / beamni iidx, 6K 8K o2jam etc.). It is a new environment with new standards and new conditions on how to get the best score. Deal with it, or play osu!mania specific maps only, where you can be sure they are made for your accustomed environment.

So will mania specific maps with only mania difficulties be accepted for ranking?


OT: While I don't agree the score should be reduced at all, .85 for all key mods that aren't default and 1 for default seems fair to me. While higher key mods might be harder due to more keys, they are also more spread out and easier to read as opposed to lower key mods. Since specific maps are locked to the key level the mapper wants I don't see why it should be any lower than .85 for maps where the key amount was set automatically by osu!.

DJKero wrote:

It's really pointless if Newbie Beatgamers start to say their opinion and we take them in count... the amateurs and pros, we all know that...

I'm sorry, but that has to be one of the most arrogant and elitist things I've seen in this forum board (and I already view this community as an elitist one to some extent unfortunately and it still bugs me a bit) Anyways, if anything, we're in desperate need of the opinions of newbies, everyone starts out as one and if we make things discouraging for them, then it is much harder for osu to grow both as a game and as a community. It's refreshing to hear the opinions of lesser skilled players in the forums, a lot of lesser skilled players are too intimidated by the "godlike" players that participate actively in the forums and thus are too scared to share their thoughts; anything we can do to relieve this anxiety more would be beneficial towards the osu game and community.

I think osu!mania should be unranked

Or maybe it should just rather be removed

Actually I don't even care the slightest about osu!mania as I have beatmania IIDX and DJMAX Trilogy, so don't mind me

Lno wrote:

Ahmi wrote:

What's a "4k player"? A player who refuses to play using more keys, and therefore limiting himself? That's like a "normal player" who refuses to play any difficulties besides normal. Of course, he has the right to do so, but he shouldn't expect to compete with players who don't limit themselves.

You're also an idiot.

A 4k player plays 4k because he/she enjoys that style of play, not to limit themselves. For me right now, due to controls (I'm used to TR) 5/7k is incredibly difficult and 8k is just retarded. (Support this thread)

So, if someone plays only normal difficulties, because he enjoys that style of play, he should be able to compete with people who play insane difficulties, because playing insane maps is for him incredibly difficult?
You just need to get used to new controls if you want to play seriously. And if you don't, then why do you care about score?
For example, in Taiko, you usually start playing it with just one hand, and the transition to two hands is very difficult. But should such a player be able to compete with those, who learned to play properly? I don't think so. You just need to learn new controls. It might take some time, but definitely less than starting from a scratch, and that way you'll be playing against other people on equal terms.
It should be expected of a mod which makes the game easier to give less points. It doesn't matter if you use it because you enjoy that. There are people who enjoy playing on relax, but do you really think they also should be able to compete with regular players? And if not, what makes it so different? Both mods make the game easier.

Ahmi wrote:

So, if someone plays only normal difficulties, because he enjoys that style of play, he should be able to compete with people who play insane difficulties, because playing insane maps is for him incredibly difficult?
You just need to get used to new controls if you want to play seriously. And if you don't, then why do you care about score?
For example, in Taiko, you usually start playing it with just one hand, and the transition to two hands is very difficult. But should such a player be able to compete with those, who learned to play properly? I don't think so. You just need to learn new controls. It might take some time, but definitely less than starting from a scratch, and that way you'll be playing against other people on equal terms.
It should be expected of a mod which makes the game easier to give less points. It doesn't matter if you use it because you enjoy that. There are people who enjoy playing on relax, but do you really think they also should be able to compete with regular players? And if not, what makes it so different? Both mods make the game easier.

I think the main argument here is that less keys =/= easier in every case, thus if a map is a kmap by default a (=/=k)map could either be easier or harder and whether it's easier or harder isn't something objective, it differs from person to person. For example, try imagining playing Chipscape on 1K, doesn't sound so easy now does it? I'm just stating some observations though, I'm still on the fence on how I'd like to see this problem be solved...

benguin wrote:

I think the main argument here is that less keys =/= easier in every case, thus if a map is a kmap by default a (=/=k)map could either be easier or harder and whether it's easier or harder isn't something objective, it differs from person to person. For example, try imagining playing Chipscape on 1K, doesn't sound so easy now does it? I'm just stating some observations though, I'm still on the fence on how I'd like to see this problem be solved...

It's almost always easier to play with less keys if we only consider the available options. There's no 1K mod, so that's pretty silly argument.
The closest thing to decreasing keys in osu! standard would be the easy mod. It sometimes makes everything messy, but that's not a reason to get rid of score modifier.
A 7K difficulty converted to 4K is almost always (if not always) going to be easier, and that's why it needs a modifier. And in these rare cases where it could get harder, it would be most likely because of everything getting messy and unreadable.

Its unfair for the players if the scoring multiplier for 4K is greater than 8K.... Basically... Its more effort to play 8K because it uses 8 of your fingers compared to 4K....
It is insane... but I more prefer this:

Kazuo wrote:

why not ranking boards for each keys?

Make a ranking boards for each keys...

I just turned on Osu today and my 4k is now insanely fast. I'm a 4key player. (And YES I read the entire thread about how I'm not challenging myself)

I love playing hard songs tuned down to 4key. I have lots of fun. But as of today, 08 NOV, every song that I try and play modded down to 4key seems like it has double time. It's entirely unplayable because its so fast. Is this a change? My OSU didn't update. (I also noticed the score modifiers are different.)

Summary: I like playing HARD (not the difficulty, the play style which includes Insane) 7/8key songs tuned down (because I LOVE 4key) and now they are on afterburner. Why am I being penalized?

Anticipate wrote:

Kazuo wrote:

why not ranking boards for each keys?

too epic.

SOOOOOOO EPIC. I can't Imagine...

Ahmi wrote:

benguin wrote:

I think the main argument here is that less keys =/= easier in every case, thus if a map is a kmap by default a (=/=k)map could either be easier or harder and whether it's easier or harder isn't something objective, it differs from person to person. For example, try imagining playing Chipscape on 1K, doesn't sound so easy now does it? I'm just stating some observations though, I'm still on the fence on how I'd like to see this problem be solved...

It's almost always easier to play with less keys if we only consider the available options. There's no 1K mod, so that's pretty silly argument.
The closest thing to decreasing keys in osu! standard would be the easy mod. It sometimes makes everything messy, but that's not a reason to get rid of score modifier.
A 7K difficulty converted to 4K is almost always (if not always) going to be easier, and that's why it needs a modifier. And in these rare cases where it could get harder, it would be most likely because of everything getting messy and unreadable.

Your argument about my argument being silly is silly in itself. Hypothetical situations are used all the time for arguments and analogies all the time. The validity of either of our points wouldn't change if peppy decided to implement 1K/2K/3K right now. Also, the analogy you use with easy mod also isn't really a good analogy. Easy mod only subjectively makes things look messy and difficult to read for some players on some maps, putting easy mod doesn't objectively make things look messy. On the other hand, with osu!mania, it is an objective fact that if you play a 7K map with 4K mod, the amount of effort needed per finger is almost doubled; to be more precise, the average notes-per-second-per-finger count is almost doubled in value. What it comes down to really is a fine balance between control and effort distribution. Too many keys will cause people to start to lose control, too little keys will result in too much effort/pressure per finger. Where that boundary between too little and too many keys is different for every person, there is no objective way of saying xK is the easiest. If you want, I could go into more detail, but let other people respond first before I get too carried away.

Tanomoshii Nekojou wrote:

Basically... Its more effort to play high bpm streams on osu! standard with 2 keys because it uses 2 of your fingers compared to 1....

rip single tappers (I hope you guys see where I'm going with this)

benguin wrote:

I just said a lot of stuff.

Basically, less keys (whether it's 1K or 2K or 4K, whatever) increase the amount of jacks (repeated presses of the same key) which is one of the hardest things I know in rhythm games. So benguin has got a point.

But Ahmi is right about the fact that that IN MOST CASES less keys is a lot easier. 4K is more like a reaction test compared to 7K, unless we talk about the truly insane maps.

peppy wrote:

Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse.

There's currently no reason to play 8k ranked. It's irrelevant in competition.

akirashiji wrote:

I just turned on Osu today and my 4k is now insanely fast. I'm a 4key player. (And YES I read the entire thread about how I'm not challenging myself)

I love playing hard songs tuned down to 4key. I have lots of fun. But as of today, 08 NOV, every song that I try and play modded down to 4key seems like it has double time. It's entirely unplayable because its so fast. Is this a change? My OSU didn't update. (I also noticed the score modifiers are different.)

Summary: I like playing HARD (not the difficulty, the play style which includes Insane) 7/8key songs tuned down (because I LOVE 4key) and now they are on afterburner. Why am I being penalized?

You probably have watched a replay in which the player used a higher scrolling speed, or whatever it's called. Hint: you can change it with F3 and F4 when playing (F3 makes it faster, F4 slower).

benguin wrote:

A very long post there.

OK then, I'll be clear. Your 1K example was silly because the game's goal itself changes there. The only thing being tested would be how fast you can press the button. And if you allow an alternate key (like now you can have two keys bound for the centre key), then I'll say it as a former Taiko player: it would be MUCH, much easier, if not trivial.
I'm not sure how the algorithm works, so I might be wrong there, but I think that if two beats next to each other are played by different fingers on the original key number, the algorithm will never force them to be played by one finger after lowering the key number. At least that's what would make the most sense, otherwise it would clearly be stupid, since it would sometimes force players to play 1/8 or 1/4 with very high BPM with one finger, which would make the song impossible.
Assuming what I said is true (and it probably is), you will never be forced to play notes too quickly with one finger, and as long as you don't need to use one finger consecutively, it's fine, and therefore "notes per finger" thing doesn't matter at all.


And to the people who want separate ranking boards for each key number, it's unlikely it will ever happen. It would require every ranked osu!mania beatmap's difficulty to be good enough for every key number, and also would require BATs to do much more work. Instead of checking, for example 4 difficulties, they would have to check 20 difficulties (each difficulty on each key setting). And also, there would probably be far too few scores for certain K's. If I had to guess, 5K scoreboards would be almost empty.

Ahmi wrote:

Assuming what I said is true (and it probably is), you will never be forced to play notes too quickly with one finger, and as long as you don't need to use one finger consecutively, it's fine, and therefore "notes per finger" thing doesn't matter at all.

These notes are called 'jackhammers' or shorthand 'jacks' and actually happen often in some maps; especially more often in 4k - go play Scarlet Rose!

Ahmi wrote:

Instead of checking, for example 4 difficulties, they would have to check 20 difficulties (each difficulty on each key setting).

For osu!mania specific map, last I checked you can't change the keycount from the decided amount by the map. This is different on conversion from standard, since standard is already just an auto generated chart from the map, but a mania specific difficulty was actually MADE for a certain keycount, and cannot be changed.

I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate, I'm still quite on the fence about how I'd like to see this issue be resolved.

Anyways, about the thing concerning 1K, I guess the question becomes how many keys can you take way before osumania isn't osumania anymore? 1K and K might be pushing it but I think 3K doesn't seem too unreasonable.

Let me make an argument concerning jacks. In many osumania maps, there are series of consectutive jumps (some rhythm gaming communities call these jumpgluts) I also play a 4K rhythm game called FFR, and I hate jumpgluts because of the fact that jacks are my weakest point and jumpgluts on 4K have a lot of forced jacks. However, this isn't the case so much for 7K or 8K. Basically, if you are playing nK, and you come across one of these jumpgluts, whenever you hit a jump, the probability that the next jump will make you hit a forced jack is (2n-3)/{n!/[2*(n-2)!]}. This equates to 5/6 probability on 4K (almost 100%!) and only 13/28 probability on 8K (not even 50%). As n approaches infinity, the probability of a forced jack in nK approaches 0.

benguin is a smarty

please bring lower key mods up to 0.90 or 0.85 at the least THANKS

Bites wrote:

Ahmi wrote:

Assuming what I said is true (and it probably is), you will never be forced to play notes too quickly with one finger, and as long as you don't need to use one finger consecutively, it's fine, and therefore "notes per finger" thing doesn't matter at all.

These notes are called 'jackhammers' or shorthand 'jacks' and actually happen often in some maps; especially more often in 4k - go play Scarlet Rose!

So I was wrong. In that case, the system which "downscales" songs needs to be remade. I don't think that a system which forces a player to use only one finger to play a quick stream of notes on high BPM (for example, 1/4 in 200 BPM would be already too fast) is a good system.

Bites wrote:

Ahmi wrote:

Instead of checking, for example 4 difficulties, they would have to check 20 difficulties (each difficulty on each key setting).

For osu!mania specific map, last I checked you can't change the keycount from the decided amount by the map. This is different on conversion from standard, since standard is already just an auto generated chart from the map, but a mania specific difficulty was actually MADE for a certain keycount, and cannot be changed.

I see.There's still one more problem, a more important one. Take any random osu! map, and look at the taiko scoreboard. Unless the song is popular, you'll see C's and B's in top 40, which means that there are few people who play them, while on taiko-specific maps there usually are mostly S's, or in case of harder ones, A's. Once there are enough osu!mania specific maps, that will happen - there will be few players on the scoreboards, since most people will play osu!mania specific maps. And now if we split them into 5 separate scoreboards... You can imagine what would happen. Getting first rank on any beatmap besides the popular ones, like Bad Apple, won't be any achievement.