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Score Multipliers for 4~8k [osu!mania]

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Total Posts
87
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +28
Anceri
22 posts
Joined June 2012
Topic Starter
Anceri
If you think i'm referring to HR/HD/FL/DT/NC , no i'm not.

We have a mod option for playing 6k on a 7k map am i right?
I think we should set different score multipliers to each mod like 4k/5k/6k/7k/8k.
Because i think it'd be unfair if we are playing 6k and other people use 4k and still get higher score then us even though we use 6k.
Also i think 8k should have a higher score multiplier if we're playing on a 7k and below map, otherwise it's also unfair.

Here are some screenies if you don't get it.

4k/5k/6k/7k/8k each should have different score multipliers! otherwise it's unfair for gameplay.
SPOILER


woc2006
409 posts
Joined September 2011
woc2006
Firstly, I don't agree with using nK mods to get higher scores, so all nK mods are <1 multipliers.
Secondly, I've made different multipilers for 2 cases, play with more keys and play with less keys.
ZeroEightOne
240 posts
Joined August 2011
ZeroEightOne
I think scoring should be..
- More keys means higher multiplier
Example : 4K diff , 5K = 1.03x , 6K = 1.07x like this
- Less keys means lower multiplier
Example : 7K diff , 6K = 0.90x , 5K = 0.80x like this
Anceri
22 posts
Joined June 2012
Topic Starter
Anceri

0814587134 wrote:

I think scoring should be..
- More keys means higher multiplier
Example : 4K diff , 5K = 1.03x , 6K = 1.07x like this
- Less keys means lower multiplier
Example : 7K diff , 6K = 0.90x , 5K = 0.80x like this
That was what i was meaning all along...
Amefuri Koneko
130 posts
Joined April 2010
Amefuri Koneko

0814587134 wrote:

I think scoring should be..
- More keys means higher multiplier
Example : 4K diff , 5K = 1.03x , 6K = 1.07x like this
- Less keys means lower multiplier
Example : 7K diff , 6K = 0.90x , 5K = 0.80x like this

Not much sense in 1.x multipliers actually, diffs that autogen 4k are generaly super easy and they will stay super easy even with 7k-8k mod, there won't be any reason to play 4k easy diff cuz you can just learn to FC it with 7k mod in one evening.

On the other hand, 0.9x multiplier for 4k mod is WAY TOO HIGH, it should be at least 0.5x. Look up on youtube what stepmania\ffr players can do with 4k. This will lead to top 40 for any decent insane being taken by 4k SS's. Damn, Staiain already had a vid of him A'ing "big black" 4k. There're plenty of 7k insanes which are impossible\nearly impossible to 90% (mostly due to autogen abusing middle button), but they will be SS'd by 4k mod users in no time, believe me.
woc2006
409 posts
Joined September 2011
woc2006

Ami Furi Koneko wrote:

0814587134 wrote:

I think scoring should be..
- More keys means higher multiplier
Example : 4K diff , 5K = 1.03x , 6K = 1.07x like this
- Less keys means lower multiplier
Example : 7K diff , 6K = 0.90x , 5K = 0.80x like this

Not much sense in 1.x multipliers actually, diffs that autogen 4k are generaly super easy and they will stay super easy even with 7k-8k mod, there won't be any reason to play 4k easy diff cuz you can just learn to FC it with 7k mod in one evening.

On the other hand, 0.9x multiplier for 4k mod is WAY TOO HIGH, it should be at least 0.5x. Look up on youtube what stepmania\ffr players can do with 4k. This will lead to top 40 for any decent insane being taken by 4k SS's. Damn, Staiain already had a vid of him A'ing "big black" 4k. There're plenty of 7k insanes which are impossible\nearly impossible to 90% (mostly due to autogen abusing middle button), but they will be SS'd by 4k mod users in no time, believe me.
4K 0.86x
7K 0.9x
Anceri
22 posts
Joined June 2012
Topic Starter
Anceri
Couldn't 4k drop lower?
It doesn't make sense where most high rankings are done by 4Ks.

Look, a 4K getting higher then me , using 6k.
Last edited by Anceri , edited 1 time in total.
Kazuo
3,333 posts
Joined September 2010
Kazuo
why not ranking boards for each keys?
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest

Kazuo wrote:

why not ranking boards for each keys?
this guy
Anceri
22 posts
Joined June 2012
Topic Starter
Anceri

theowest wrote:

Kazuo wrote:

why not ranking boards for each keys?
this guy
too epic.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse.
Zamura_old
22 posts
Joined August 2010
Zamura_old

peppy wrote:

Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse.
lol'd
Bites
185 posts
Joined June 2012
Bites
i already don't really like the 0.86 on 4k compared to other mods - both require a high degree of skill and many 7k players have shown themselves to be able to defeat 4k scores effortlessly and would've taken top ranks regardless of score mods!

but hey, it's already decent enough to be recognized as the 'best' 4k player on mania right now (that is, until staiain gets used to long notes) so i'm not really that iffed! it's all in good fun anyways, so i'll still be playing 4k regardless of whether it's at 0.9x score or 0.1x :D

speaking of which, someone go take my #1 on banned forever. 4k scores are noob, one of you 7k pros can do it!
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
this is an honest question.

why do you guys care about the autoconversion scores?
Kazuo
3,333 posts
Joined September 2010
Kazuo

Anticipate wrote:

Couldn't 4k drop lower?
It doesn't make sense where most high rankings are done by 4Ks.

Look, a 4K getting higher then me , using 6k.
i was thinking about that too when i first saw the rankings, but hey if they do x score with x keys and your score with more keys is lower, doesnt it means that you should get better?
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,061 posts
Joined December 2010
riffy

peppy wrote:

Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse.
peppy wins again
Desco
14 posts
Joined January 2012
Desco
Thank you, I was wondering about this. I play 7k and even though I don't care a lot about scores and ranks it's still annoying to get beaten out by players who use 4k when 7k is much more work.
VoidnOwO
1,256 posts
Joined August 2012
VoidnOwO
:P
Last edited by VoidnOwO , edited 1 time in total.
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
whoa, are any of those super insane doubletime ranks legit?
Saten
Global Moderator
3,866 posts
Joined August 2010
Saten
afaik yes

o!m is the only mode you can DT such maps in the current state.
Bites
185 posts
Joined June 2012
Bites
i think the hardest DTable song right now is peppy's tutorial, pro gameplay.

i'm not certain on that so dont call me on it but so far that's the hardest i've personally been able to FC on DT
mulraf
1,067 posts
Joined January 2012
mulraf
hm... my thought is that you can train yourself to always play with 8 keys, you just need time and put effort into it, someday you'll get used to it...
but if you need to play with a varying number of keys you'll allways need to adapt yourself to that, in my opinion it's harder to sometimes play the games with 7 keys, with 6 keys or with 4 keys, than allways doing the same....
that's probably also what they thought when they made up that mod.
Lno
158 posts
Joined September 2012
Lno

peppy wrote:

Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse.
You don't have to go that far. <_>

I don't see why score should change with keys it should just be different ranking boards for each key. Putting a 4k player together with a 7k player is just silly.
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest

Lno wrote:

peppy wrote:

Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse.
You don't have to go that far. <_>

I don't see why score should change with keys it should just be different ranking boards for each key. Putting a 4k player together with a 7k player is just silly.
stop it. you're just making it worse
Lno
158 posts
Joined September 2012
Lno
How am I making it worse by stating my opinion? I just don't like that there's a score deduction for different key modes.
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
It's a mod. All mods are suppose to be viewed on the ranking. Are you seriously considering separate rankings for each key mod?

Support this mod filter request instead
t/88988
Lno
158 posts
Joined September 2012
Lno
I'm complaining more about the score reduction for having different key mods active rather than the ranking board stuff so that filter doesn't really affect my complaint.

I would rather the scores be equal for all of the key mods but since others were already complaining about the difference in difficulty with keys the idea of different ranking boards would fix this.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
I'd be all for different ranking charts for the 5 different key amounts, but there are 2 main problems with that:
1. It divides players and makes for less competition (the big one)
2. It'd be annoying on the web (either you add another dropdown menu just for mania or add a new tab for every game mode, which is cluttered and unintuitive)

Besides, you're going against the nature of how the map was naturally generated, and changing it so it's not the original map any more, just like what any other mod does. Separate leaderboards for each key amount would be like having separate leaderboards for nomod, easy, halftime, hard rock and doubletime (since each one changes how the map plays)
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
I'm not sure how upping the key mode will always make things harder.

Take and easy map (4Keys) and turn on 8Key, you won't even use every lane and you still play the same rhythm. I don't understand how that is harder, it's just using a different amount of lanes to the same rhythm. You can also get other results of less double/triple/quad key presses because things are more spread out. That's harder, right?

Also: Overall leaderboards are not and never will be 100% accurate. You're missing the point of the game if ranking up is the only objective.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
^ Actually it's highly likely to use every lane and it's not the same rhythm. The rhythm uses more keys and there are more chords. Also that's nitpicking. Out of 20 thousand ranked beatmaps, if there exists a few maps that are easier on higher keys then we shouldn't happen. (Not to say I agree with extra multipliers, but seriously not a good way to approach things).

There also isn't many double presses in Easies, and it's almost always certain to have three chord presses when you bump things up to 7K, and even more so with 8 key, because the game allows it to happen more frequently.

I don't think whether or not some difficulties or easy or not is the problem. woc seems to be pretty anal about this 1 million max and at this rate the regular DT, hidden, Hardrock wont even have positive multipliers.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
woc's method doesn't even make sense with hard rock. All it does is make harsher hit leniency, which... would result in more lenient hits??
Kitsunemimi
2,188 posts
Joined April 2009
Kitsunemimi
I currently don't really have the energy to put my full opinion here, but I still think it's really silly that you get a score reduction if you want to increase the number of keys.
Anzo
762 posts
Joined December 2010
Anzo

peppy wrote:

Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse.
LOL'ed, this made my day XD

Anyways, score multipliers? Why not score additives?
Something like ... increase by 30000 per key added and decrease by 40000 per key subtracted... and it this will be included in the base score of 1M

Diff is 4K
4K (+0)
5K (+30000)
6K (+60000)
7K (+90000)
8K (+120000)

Diff is 7K
8K (+30000)
7K (+0)
6K (-40000)
5K (-80000)
4K (-120000)
Amefuri Koneko
130 posts
Joined April 2010
Amefuri Koneko
Anyways, score multipliers? Why not score additives?
Something like ... increase by 30000 per key added and decrease by 40000 per key subtracted... and it this will be included in the base score of 1M

Diff is 4K
4K (+0)
5K (+30000)
6K (+60000)
7K (+90000)
8K (+120000)

Diff is 7K
8K (+30000)
7K (+0)
6K (-40000)
5K (-80000)
4K (-120000)
You just basically wrote score multipliers assuming max score is 1000000, lol

4K (1.0x) = (+0)
5k (1.03x) = (+30000)
6k (1.06x) = (+60000)
7k (1.09x) = (+90000)
8k (1.12x) = (+120000)

0.03x per key, imho, making positive multipliers for more keys is like killing everything except 8k. Why would anyone even bother playing 4k or 6k if he can start learning 8k straight from easy diffs and even learning proccess is highly rewarded. Also I guess playing 7k\5k is actually harder than 8k\6k, because of that middle button.
Anzo
762 posts
Joined December 2010
Anzo

Ami Furi Koneko wrote:

You just basically wrote score multipliers assuming max score is 1000000, lol
That's because this is getting too mainstream. ... because there's something I have in mind regarding about the difficulty-reduction and diff-increase mods in gameplay... (Make score additive instead of multiplying values... even on EZ, NF and HT etc etc mods)
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun

MMzz wrote:

You're missing the point of the game if ranking up is the only objective.
/thread
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest


I guess this is a step in the right direction.
XEPCOH
529 posts
Joined February 2011
XEPCOH
go go 1k, 2k and 3k mods!
for cookiezies, 9k, 10k, ... , 304343904390439k
Saten
Global Moderator
3,866 posts
Joined August 2010
Saten

Don Omar wrote:

go go 1k, 2k and 3k mods!
for cookiezies, 9k, 10k, ... , 304343904390439k
Now you're just exaggerating lol
Amefuri Koneko
130 posts
Joined April 2010
Amefuri Koneko
Reposting question about monthly charts and current score system.
Well, I get the point about getting rainbow 300s for regular rankings and I'm ok with it, but what about monthly ranking charts? They always were based on score and a possibility to play easier diffs and get the same rankings as for harder ones is an issue IMO. Making monthly charts PP based (if it's planned solution for this) will also require playing every diff to get max PP for each song, which isn't really fun.
deadbeat
osu! Alumni
9,218 posts
Joined June 2009
deadbeat

Ami Furi Koneko wrote:

Making monthly charts PP based (if it's planned solution for this) will also require playing every diff to get max PP for each song, which isn't really fun.
monthly charts being scored of pp would be kinda silly imo. also you don't need to play every diff to get max pp >_> just get #1 on the hardest map with 100% for that.

anyway

Ami Furi Koneko wrote:

but what about monthly ranking charts? They always were based on score and a possibility to play easier diffs and get the same rankings as for harder ones is an issue IMO.
that might be a issue....i don't really see it as a massive issue though. but it would be kinda strange people get in the top 5 for the ranking charts just from playing the Easy difficulties >_<
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
that might be a issue...





i don't really see it as a massive issue though.



but it would be kinda strange



people get in the top 5 for the ranking charts just from playing the Easy difficulties >_<
bwross
265 posts
Joined December 2009
bwross

deadbeat wrote:

Ami Furi Koneko wrote:

Making monthly charts PP based (if it's planned solution for this) will also require playing every diff to get max PP for each song, which isn't really fun.
monthly charts being scored of pp would be kinda silly imo. also you don't need to play every diff to get max pp >_> just get #1 on the hardest map with 100% for that.
Yeah, but they're probably coming:
t/95988

And the thing is that with pp, you do need to play every diff, or risk being nickle and dimed by someone who did, because you can score pp on multiple diffs in a set (which is good and bad). This can be potentially reduced by using a very aggressive weighting curve to limit the number of maps that a player can count. Or doing the total rank score thing, and using only the highest pp from each set (but only for charts) is another way... but I'm not fond of it.

My big concern with using pp for charts is that it's a statistical method, and for stats to work well, you need lots of data... and there doesn't seem to be very many real competitors on the charts (look at the #1 and the #40 scores on a chart, if things were competitive they should be a lot closer than they are).

But since osu!mania is implemented with normalized scoring, there's probably no better way for it. Especially with the max score fixed even with mods... because the bonus for using mods will essentially only be given in pp.
Bites
185 posts
Joined June 2012
Bites
Lower key mods are now at 0.8x yet the changelog says 0.86. Is this temporary?
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy

Ami Furi Koneko wrote:

will also require playing every diff to get max PP for each song, which isn't really fun.
This shows a lack of understanding in how pp works.. It was made to scale and will work correctly when implemented for charts, too.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Don't worry about pp gains. woc's system will work quite smoothly. Full rainbowing a song is very difficult. The mods will make it easier to get max points or at the very least closer to max points than if you just went through the map and did the same performance without said mod. It's kind of counter intuitive to say it is making it easier by making it harder, but it's really a difficulty tradeoff. You must deal withmod impairments in return for better point returns.

And really that has nothing to do with applying score multipliers for keys. With the way woc is treating multipliers, adding equal multipliers to higher key mods seems less of an option. It doesn't make sense that a non-7K map changed to a 7K map would be worth more points overall than a 7K map. If the ceiling remains 1,000,000, then I don't think weighting the mod at a gain is even feasible.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
Don't worry about pp gains. woc's system will work quite smoothly. Full rainbowing a song is very difficult.
Humanly impossibly @@

The mods will make it easier to get max points or at the very least closer to max points than if you just went through the map and did the same performance without said mod.
wtf mods decrease score

It's kind of counter intuitive to say it is making it easier by making it harder, but it's really a difficulty tradeoff. You must deal withmod impairments in return for better point returns.
???
Extreme Edition
11 posts
Joined October 2011
Extreme Edition
I play normal difficulty maps this period, i hate playing 4K, i like to use 7K mod, but I'm not "pro" to play insane7K maps (the same situation for other players), why should be penalized for using more keys?, is more difficult, unfair and pointless the score reduction :o

woc2006 wrote:

Firstly, I don't agree with using nK mods to get higher scores, so all nK mods are <1 multipliers.
Secondly, I've made different multipilers for 2 cases, play with more keys and play with less keys.
suggest a small increase multiplier for K mods :D

Example Normal map (4K)

4K 1.00
5K 1.01
6K 1.02
7K 1.03
8K 1.04

Example Hard map (5K)

4K 0.86
5K 1.00
6K 1.02
7K 1.03
8K 1.04

Example Hard map (6K)

4K 0.86
5K 0.90
6K 1.00
7K 1.03
8K 1.04

Example Insane map (7K)

4K 0.86
5K 0.90
6K 0.94
7K 1.00
8K 1.04

Example Extra map (8K)

4K 0.86
5K 0.90
6K 0.94
7K 0.98
8K 1.00




Is that possible?...
Last edited by Extreme Edition , edited 1 time in total.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I would agree that if all higher keys had 1.0x with no benefits once so ever, I would support this. That would indicate that increasing the key count is due to personal preference and it is. Really these keys can't be worth more than existing xK maps and shouldn't be treated special compared to those maps.


woc2006, that is fair right?
Lno
158 posts
Joined September 2012
Lno
I don't see why the decrease is there for lower keys. Just let people compete with the mode they're most comfortable with, why penalize them for playing the mode they enjoy.
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