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Allow to use different Approach Rates in map
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Easy difficulty AR 10 for pros
I would make all those shitty ar9 maps into ar8 \;D/
come on,deny this shit already
Topic Starter
5 Graveyard Maps is not a right way to vote here.dNextGen wrote:
come on,let me be smarter and let me get out of here already
I remember when we didn't allow slider speed changes.
ampzz
?_____?Giorgos wrote:
5 Graveyard Maps is not a right way to vote here.dNextGen wrote:
come on,let me be smarter and let me get out of here already
how does my graved maps related to this topic ? please enlighten me with your awesome knowledge
Topic Starter
You don't have any ranked maps,which means,that you are 99% don't understand why does osu needs different AR's in some songs. you are a kind of man who just need to come and talk shit about others without any evidence. Don't try to prove me wrong,because I am right in this situation.dNextGen wrote:
?_____?
how does my graved maps related to this topic ? please enlighten me with your awesome knowledge
Now don't go offtopic here,if you want to tell me something - write a PM.
not going to say anything since i seriously had no idea what the fuck are you talking about
sorry for being too stupid to understand your words tho
sorry for being too stupid to understand your words tho
But then it's unfitting on some maps.
i don't map so please forgive me if i said something wrong (perhaps ill start soon XD)
For experienced mappers who can use this to their advantage then it would be a good thing to allow different AR's
but what about the others? i can already imagine how much more trouble there will be when modding
/me sticks to easy mod with kriers
For experienced mappers who can use this to their advantage then it would be a good thing to allow different AR's
but what about the others? i can already imagine how much more trouble there will be when modding
/me sticks to easy mod with kriers
Players are the ones who play the maps, now stop provoking people or more action will be taken, stay on topic and have a nice discussion.Giorgos wrote:
You don't have any ranked maps,which means,that you are 99% don't understand why does osu needs different AR's in some songs. you are a kind of man who just need to come and talk shit about others without any evidence. Don't try to prove me wrong,because I am right in this situation.dNextGen wrote:
?_____?
how does my graved maps related to this topic ? please enlighten me with your awesome knowledge
Now don't go offtopic here,if you want to tell me something - write a PM.
I just read this and, damn, yeah, it would fit some songs pretty nicely.
If the problem is abuse, we have to prevent it by adding extra guidelines like the one Mashley mentioned earlier but really, I don't see any other problems. And stubborn mappers are stubborn mappers and haters gonna hate, as always.
So yeah, I support this o/
If the problem is abuse, we have to prevent it by adding extra guidelines like the one Mashley mentioned earlier but really, I don't see any other problems. And stubborn mappers are stubborn mappers and haters gonna hate, as always.
So yeah, I support this o/
peppy wrote:
*holds gun to head*
*cringes and pulls trigger*
I think this will never get implemented.
peppy died D: nuuuuuu
Topic Starter
Glad to see like-minded person!narakucrimson wrote:
I just read this and, damn, yeah, it would fit some songs pretty nicely.
If the problem is abuse, we have to prevent it by adding extra guidelines like the one Mashley mentioned earlier but really, I don't see any other problems. And stubborn mappers are stubborn mappers and haters gonna hate, as always.
So yeah, I support this o/
BTW Haters can hate,I don't care
I've always thought approach rates are better if they match up the speed of the song, it would screw hidden players (like me 
) tho
) thoI'm surprised that this thread is open. Well, I don't support the idea and here's a reason why. Players can abuse this by setting the custom Approach Rate low and use Hard Rock just to get easy points and get in the leader boards easily. That's a bit unbalanced. :/ Saying "I'm sure players won't do that" is not a good excuse. You don't know that. Just throwing my two cents here.
You're confusing this thread with the other one. This one is about having multiple ARs in a single map... players can't abuse this, because it's set during mapping, never during playing. If anything, players would be abused by this. I'm not a fan of either suggestion... but this one wouldn't be nearly as bad (assuming that the modding process only gets better).Roddie wrote:
I'm surprised that this thread is open. Well, I don't support the idea and here's a reason why. Players can abuse this by setting the custom Approach Rate low and use Hard Rock just to get easy points and get in the leader boards easily. That's a bit unbalanced. :/ Saying "I'm sure players won't do that" is not a good excuse. You don't know that. Just throwing my two cents here.
Oh I see... Well, sorry for the misunderstanding.bwross wrote:
You're confusing this thread with the other one. This one is about having multiple ARs in a single map... players can't abuse this, because it's set during mapping, never during playing. If anything, players would be abused by this. I'm not a fan of either suggestion... but this one wouldn't be nearly as bad (assuming that the modding process only gets better).
I'm against this because abuse might happen but here's a better idea.
How about letting players choose their own Approach Rates before starting a song? I mean not all people can read AR 9 (especially 10) and some players are just fine with AR 8 or even lower.
Most rythm games have this for example DDR, O2jam, DJmax etc.. you can choose different falling speeds on every song.
So yeah having it on osu would let you choose from AR 1 - AR 10.
Well what do you think? I think this feature is pretty good.
How about letting players choose their own Approach Rates before starting a song? I mean not all people can read AR 9 (especially 10) and some players are just fine with AR 8 or even lower.
Most rythm games have this for example DDR, O2jam, DJmax etc.. you can choose different falling speeds on every song.
So yeah having it on osu would let you choose from AR 1 - AR 10.
Well what do you think? I think this feature is pretty good.
well there is already a thread about that idea and i am against that, because you would screw the whole point system up.rickyboi wrote:
I'm against this because abuse might happen but here's a better idea.
How about letting players choose their own Approach Rates before starting a song? I mean not all people can read AR 9 (especially 10) and some players are just fine with AR 8 or even lower.
Most rythm games have this for example DDR, O2jam, DJmax etc.. you can choose different falling speeds on every song.
So yeah having it on osu would let you choose from AR 1 - AR 10.
Well what do you think? I think this feature is pretty good.
also what is the point to have an easier insane diff. then? Or how many beatmaps even have such a high AR from begin with?
I think this could be an unranked mod but not an actual feature for everyone.
Same. Hidden will be awful if Maps contain this.Sakura Hana wrote:
I've always thought approach rates are better if they match up the speed of the song, it would screw hidden players (like me
Like I said this feature is about preference. The target is to make the player most comfortable to whatever AR he/she would prefer on any kind of song. I've seen lots of songs with only 140 - 160bpm but it has already 9 AR which doesn't really fit the bpm and especially songs with 200 - 250bpm but only has AR 7 or 8 .bomber34 wrote:
rickyboi wrote:
You would screw the whole point system up. - Can be easily fixed by removing the AR calculated to multiply the score.
also what is the point to have an easier insane diff. then? Or how many beatmaps even have such a high AR from begin with? - I think you didn't understand what I was trying to point out.
If you've actually played DJmax, IIDX, DDR or O2jam you'll understand what I'm trying to say here.
You cut the most important part of that sentence. There is already a thread for that idea, and it would be best if you make your comments over there so they don't get lost.rickyboi wrote:
bomber34 wrote:
You would screw the whole point system up.
This feature request is stupid and shouldn't even exist.
peppy or someone else, please deny this.
Why? well, let's say someone makes an Insane diff.
If it's insane, it's suppose to have insane beatmap settings. AR9 for example. Not constantly changing to AR8 because suddenly there's a calm part in the song. No, it's one diff and it should only be one approach rate.
Don't be silly. Keep the beatmap settings differently according to the difficulty.
peppy or someone else, please deny this.
Why? well, let's say someone makes an Insane diff.
If it's insane, it's suppose to have insane beatmap settings. AR9 for example. Not constantly changing to AR8 because suddenly there's a calm part in the song. No, it's one diff and it should only be one approach rate.
Don't be silly. Keep the beatmap settings differently according to the difficulty.
Topic Starter
If you had ever played CTB,then you will understand how does it feel to play an Insane diff with AR9 on a calm part of the song with calm music and voice and with omgwtfisthisshit fruits flying everywhere - THAT IS STUPID! Sometimes different AR's on Insane diffs will really fit the songs (not all songs,but some of them exactly!)theowest wrote:
This feature request is stupid and shouldn't even exist.
peppy or someone else, please deny this.
Why? well, let's say someone makes an Insane diff.
If it's insane, it's suppose to have insane beatmap settings. AR9 for example. Not constantly changing to AR8 because suddenly there's a calm part in the song. No, it's one diff and it should only be one approach rate.
Don't be silly. Keep the beatmap settings differently according to the difficulty.
So think before you say something and look how many EXPERIENCED mappers support this idea,not just random guys like idk
I don't play CtB because it sucks but oh well. An osu! beatmap isn't created for CtB. Osu maps are just transferred over to CtB or taiko, which can cause some crazy shit if the osu! beatmap is really hard. Maybe this different AR thing is something for the CtB and taiko players only? I've thought of this very much actually, I've thought of this for over 8 fucking months. I don't care if experienced mappers support this, it doesn't mean they have thought this through just as much as I have.Giorgos wrote:
If you had ever played CTB,then you will understand how does it feel to play an Insane diff with AR9 on a calm part of the song with calm music and voice and with omgwtfisthisshit fruits flying everywhere - THAT IS STUPID! Sometimes different AR's on Insane diffs will really fit the songs (not all songs,but some of them exactly!)theowest wrote:
This feature request is stupid and shouldn't even exist.
peppy or someone else, please deny this.
Why? well, let's say someone makes an Insane diff.
If it's insane, it's suppose to have insane beatmap settings. AR9 for example. Not constantly changing to AR8 because suddenly there's a calm part in the song. No, it's one diff and it should only be one approach rate.
Don't be silly. Keep the beatmap settings differently according to the difficulty.
So think before you say something and look how many EXPERIENCED mappers support this idea,not just random guys like idk
Let's be honest, this will never be implemented.
Topic Starter
CTB difficulties will become rankable soon,and this thing will be very useful for them,so it doesn't matter if it sucks for such a pro like you or not - I will not calm down until this idea WILL become real! So we will see.
So you are telling us that AR10 Maps (e.g. Can't Defeat Airman) could be lowered to AR6 (or whatever) so they become easier to play and still give the same amount of points? That would ruin the whole ranking system, since many of us can't beat hard maps like the one I took for example only because of the AR. With a lowered AR much more players would be able to beat the map and get into the TOP 50 and being in the TOP 50 wouldn't be special anymore.
If you haven't already noticed, I am against this option ._.
If you haven't already noticed, I am against this option ._.
you're talking about me? Didn't you even read what I said? I said that if you use lower AR, you should be given LESS points. It becomes EASIER. Dammit, people need to read before they make stupid statements.TheHaya wrote:
So you are telling us that AR10 Maps (e.g. Can't Defeat Airman) could be lowered to AR6 (or whatever) so they become easier to play and still give the same amount of points? That would ruin the whole ranking system, since many of us can't beat hard maps like the one I took for example only because of the AR. With a lowered AR much more players would be able to beat the map and get into the TOP 50 and being in the TOP 50 wouldn't be special anymore.
If you haven't already noticed, I am against this option ._.
More like people should learn to read thread titles, this is about mappers using different ARs on an individual beatmap.theowest wrote:
you're talking about me? Didn't you even read what I said? I said that if you use lower AR, you should be given LESS points. It becomes EASIER. Dammit, people need to read before they make stupid statements.TheHaya wrote:
So you are telling us that AR10 Maps (e.g. Can't Defeat Airman) could be lowered to AR6 (or whatever) so they become easier to play and still give the same amount of points? That would ruin the whole ranking system, since many of us can't beat hard maps like the one I took for example only because of the AR. With a lowered AR much more players would be able to beat the map and get into the TOP 50 and being in the TOP 50 wouldn't be special anymore.
If you haven't already noticed, I am against this option ._.
yes. But I gave an OPINION on what I think should be the case here. What I think is better than the original idea in this thread.Sakura Hana wrote:
More like people should learn to read thread titles, this is about mappers using different ARs on an individual beatmap.
just burn this with fire already.
Waryas
it would be easier with AR9. Why the hell would you make it 4 steps easier? One step is enough.Waryas wrote:
I know this is offtopic but!
Difficulty is subjective, Airman wouldn't be easier with ar6 but about 100x harder for some people.
For you maybe, but not for those who can't see that fast.Waryas wrote:
Too clustered. Ar10 is the easiest.to pass
This is all individual.
Waryas
Hence why i say AR difficulty is subjective and you can't give scores based on AR.
Being able to play low AR is a skill, high ar is a skill too, you can't make one give different score than the other.
OD on the other hand is different, low OD is easy for everyone, high OD is hard, hence why it gives more point.
Being able to play low AR is a skill, high ar is a skill too, you can't make one give different score than the other.
OD on the other hand is different, low OD is easy for everyone, high OD is hard, hence why it gives more point.
Excellent point! Somebody write this down, give this to peppy or something.Waryas wrote:
Hence why i say AR difficulty is subjective and you can't give scores based on AR.
Being able to play low AR is a skill, high ar is a skill too, you can't make one give different score than the other.
OD on the other hand is different, low OD is easy for everyone, high OD is hard, hence why it gives more point.
Wait. I just realised that I posted my opinion on the wrong thread. I apologize for the whole misunderstanding .___.
What an awful idea.
Most people who support this don't relaise how bad is this and how confusing will be this.
Most people who support this don't relaise how bad is this and how confusing will be this.
As if the beatmapper knows what's best for the player.. lolTheNutritiousGuy wrote:
What an awful idea.
Most people who support this don't relaise how bad is this and how confusing will be this.
Cheer-no
This is, as much as people are hating it, a pretty good idea. However just letting people pick new difficulty settings mid song sucks so how about a timing section where you adjust the slider speed also adjusts the AR? Create a tickable box like "Inherit timing sections" or "3/4 time" that says "Inherit AR"
That way excessive use becomes tedious to make, and also goes par with an increase in slider speed which makes it generally harder to implement for difficulty alone without the map itself becoming a clusterfuck cesspool, thus ugly, thus unrankable.
Making a new feature hard to work with is not the best solution, but for the one or two maps that need it, REALLY REALLY need it, the change should be big enough for it to not be too jarring to change slider speed at the same time. It's a lazy patch-up solution but it's a solution nonetheless, no?
That way excessive use becomes tedious to make, and also goes par with an increase in slider speed which makes it generally harder to implement for difficulty alone without the map itself becoming a clusterfuck cesspool, thus ugly, thus unrankable.
Making a new feature hard to work with is not the best solution, but for the one or two maps that need it, REALLY REALLY need it, the change should be big enough for it to not be too jarring to change slider speed at the same time. It's a lazy patch-up solution but it's a solution nonetheless, no?
I think it sounds nice, but would be confusing. Mod the HELL out of it, then maybe 
Support.
Personally I think this will put more emphasis on listening for musical cues rather than just spamming circles and relying on ninja reflexes.
This could work, but it needs to come with some sort of filter for people to know what songs have a dynamic AR.
Personally I think this will put more emphasis on listening for musical cues rather than just spamming circles and relying on ninja reflexes.
This could work, but it needs to come with some sort of filter for people to know what songs have a dynamic AR.
I mean, yeah. Why not. Stepmania did it, why wouldn't osu?
The maps would just get a bit more modding if there's any problem.
The maps would just get a bit more modding if there's any problem.
i see this got bumnped.
in my honest opinion, this literally would be used successfully in like less than 1% of maps, unless people started to map really weirdly timed songs and/or songs with extremely extremely dramatic BPM changes or style changes.
Also, using stepmania, and other rhythm games as an example just doesn't work. First of all because I really hate the notion of saying ,"omg well look this other game/person did it, so why can't we do it?" Like I seriously hate that argument; it's those people who say, "well this map did it on osu! why can't why I do the same thing in my map?" It's not really a legitimate argument. But anyways, secondly, stepmania and other rhythm games function differently in that notes come to a certain position, while in osu! the notes are stationary and approach circles move toward the note. It's very clear to see a change in speed in stepmania, but not as easy in osu!
Nevertheless, this could work, but i'm still leaning toward not supporting just because I don't see much of a use. If it does get implemented, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it to be honest. It's kinda hard to explain what i'm thinking. meh
in my honest opinion, this literally would be used successfully in like less than 1% of maps, unless people started to map really weirdly timed songs and/or songs with extremely extremely dramatic BPM changes or style changes.
Also, using stepmania, and other rhythm games as an example just doesn't work. First of all because I really hate the notion of saying ,"omg well look this other game/person did it, so why can't we do it?" Like I seriously hate that argument; it's those people who say, "well this map did it on osu! why can't why I do the same thing in my map?" It's not really a legitimate argument. But anyways, secondly, stepmania and other rhythm games function differently in that notes come to a certain position, while in osu! the notes are stationary and approach circles move toward the note. It's very clear to see a change in speed in stepmania, but not as easy in osu!
Nevertheless, this could work, but i'm still leaning toward not supporting just because I don't see much of a use. If it does get implemented, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it to be honest. It's kinda hard to explain what i'm thinking. meh
I don't see this being useful except in multi-BPM maps with breaks in between the AR changes... very rare, I'd say
Calm the fuck down, I know how stepmania uses it and I could from there imagine how osu! would use it. Is it really that hard to imagine this?winber1 wrote:
Also, using stepmania, and other rhythm games as an example just doesn't work. First of all because I really hate the notion of saying ,"omg well look this other game/person did it, so why can't we do it?" Like I seriously hate that argument; it's those people who say, "well this map did it on osu! why can't why I do the same thing in my map?" It's not really a legitimate argument. But anyways, secondly, stepmania and other rhythm games function differently in that notes come to a certain position, while in osu! the notes are stationary and approach circles move toward the note. It's very clear to see a change in speed in stepmania, but not as easy in osu! h
Even if it's harder to notice the speed changes in osu!, that still wouldn't change much. That's a good thing, right? Melts together better with the beatmap. But I seriously doubt you wouldn't notice the AR changes at all. They're suppose to change for a reason. A new section of the beatmap, a new bpm. There must be some sort of break before you can change the AR. Otherwise it would just cluster-fuck everything.
i think this is a pretty nice idea, if it doesnt play well in a map it will get modded out anyway.
ross53545
ross53545 wrote:
The autism is strong in this one.silmarilen wrote:
i think this is a pretty nice idea, if it doesnt play well in a map it will get modded out anyway.
Topic Starter
Continue to discuss,I won't let this idea go so easy
Cheer-no wrote:
This would be awesome for compilation maps... but that's about it, other than a few other niche cases where the song completely changes rhythm partway through. Not worth implementing for the less than 1% of maps that would use it correctly.
I'd definitely enjoyed this feature, it will add a lot of variety in mapping, also changing CS - just imagine the possibility for new stream and other patterns, especially mixed with the spacing changes.
We already have changing slider velocity and even multi-BPM maps, so why not? People will adapt to this thing too. It could be used in constant BPM maps too, just for the visual design.
Just make it unranked feature like notes on sliders so only fun maps will be noticed and shitmaps ignored anyway, and when mappers learn to use it good enough to fit the map, slowly make some of those ranked.
Again, why not?
We already have changing slider velocity and even multi-BPM maps, so why not? People will adapt to this thing too. It could be used in constant BPM maps too, just for the visual design.
Just make it unranked feature like notes on sliders so only fun maps will be noticed and shitmaps ignored anyway, and when mappers learn to use it good enough to fit the map, slowly make some of those ranked.
Again, why not?
For strong BPM switches: Maybe yes.
For compilations (Marathon Maps): Yes
For the regular use: No. This will be poorly abused and cause just shitstorm.
For compilations (Marathon Maps): Yes
For the regular use: No. This will be poorly abused and cause just shitstorm.
Agree.Stefan wrote:
For strong BPM switches: Maybe yes.
For compilations (Marathon Maps): Yes
For the regular use: No. This will be poorly abused and cause just shitstorm.
Too many people would fuck shit up with this randomly.
Let's unrank sliders, there's a potential for abuse and may cause a shitstorm.
Shohei Ohtani
How different approach rates would work
"This isn't ok you can't just change between AR 9 and 10 every 4 measures"
"wow killing mapper spirit #r00d"
Like it's an ok idea and I'd like to see it get implemented, as there are a lot of instances where maps would benefit from this
However, it would be like SV changes, where people would be like "haha look at this new feature
lets use it
all the time"
He's saying that it would be abused moreso than used correctly. Sliders on the other hand are used correctly moreso than abused :3.
"This isn't ok you can't just change between AR 9 and 10 every 4 measures"
"wow killing mapper spirit #r00d"
Like it's an ok idea and I'd like to see it get implemented, as there are a lot of instances where maps would benefit from this
However, it would be like SV changes, where people would be like "haha look at this new feature
lets use it
all the time"
I think you misunderstood his statementtuddster wrote:
Let's unrank sliders, there's a potential for abuse and may cause a shitstorm.
He's saying that it would be abused moreso than used correctly. Sliders on the other hand are used correctly moreso than abused :3.
There's no point doing it since the circles comes 1 by 1 anyway.
I think this will break the fluidity of the map. Like. Completely. Gosh. No.
I think this will break the fluidity of the map. Like. Completely. Gosh. No.
I was JUST about to request this.
This thread lives for 3 years, why have I NEVVER seen it?
In any case, I strongly support it.
First of all, EVERYTHING I'm saying now is my own opinion. It's based on my own experiences and my own point of view, please respect that and don't insult me right off the bat.
Why do I want it?
a) BPM changes in a map.
You know, compilations made by users, maps like DeltaMAX or even just normal songs with varying AR.
AR >should be< mostly dependant on the density of objects in a map. If you have more objects, you need higher AR to make reading comfortable. And the higher your BPM, the higher your object density. This is why Banned Forever (high BPM => high density) does not seems comfortable to read for many players, we all agree here, yes?
So imagine you have a track that starts off at around 150 BPM, which, in my opinion, would work well with AR7 depending on the stream spacing n stuff, but then speeds up to 180 or 190. The AR would be far too low then. By using different ARs for different sections we could achieve two things.
First, we gain ARs that actually fit the pacing of the map.
Secondly the change of ARs implies the speedup and thus even helps the reading of said speedups. When you, as a player, see that the next approach circles are faster, you intuitively realize something will happen, and will react better.
EXAMPLE BEATMAP: ginkiha - Oriens [Extra] (Deif)
This song starts at 140 BPM and then goes up to 185. Back when I first played it I had a hard time even understanding what was going on since it's not really a sudden change or anything. It just felt off for me. Granted, I wasn't good at reading maps back then, but if there would have been an AR change in the map, I just might have had a better time reading the speedup.
b) SV changes
I know these days SV changes are kind of a controversial issue, if you do anything that exceeds what some people call "reasonable" it's instantly called abused, unreadable and BAD without second thought.
If AR could be changed according to SV, sudden slowdowns would be easier to read. Why is that? As far as I know, the current speed at which Sliderticks appear depends on the AR. Or rather, if the AR is lower, the slider will appear earlier and thus the sliderticks will appear earlier as well. That means: If you have a slowdown slider which would NOT be "readable" (in fact everything not 2B-style is technically readable, but let's just stick to that term for now) alone, using a lower AR for that AR would make the slider appear earlier, thus make the sliderticks accessible for the player to read faster and enable him to play the slider properly without needing to worry about overshooting it.
EXAMPLE BEATMAP: HujuniseikouyuuP - Sayonara Lechenaultia [Lechenaultia] or [Fay] (qq944364487)
This map uses some 0.5x SV multipliers which are kinda hard to get. A described earlier, variable AR might help for those.
c) Gimmicks
I know I'll get hate for this. But yeah I don't even care.
osu! has exceeded the state of being a simple rhythm game ages ago. By now, many mappers use various gimmicks to make their map more interesting, more challenging, more fun, more enjoyable. That includes weird spacing or SV changes, streamjumps etc. Please, guys, this is not a bad thing. You're free to dislike every gimmicky map but don't call it bad just for that reason. It's simply another form of progress.
Some like those. Others don't. It's subjective. Whether it's playable or not depends on the player's skills, NOT on the map.
I see a LOT of potential for multiple ARs to be used as a gimmick. It's possible to emphasize strong beats in the music or force the player adapt to another pace. Unless you don't change the AR with every circle so that the map will be a total mess, I can imagine this to be very fun and take "reading" to a whole new level.
Obviously, players will need to adapt to this. They are not used to adapting to new AR, let alone playing stuff like AR8 or AR10 at all (mappers putting AR9 on 132 BPM maps... *sigh*)
This would require them to learn a new skill in order to play as many maps as possible, and I can imagine that a lot of people, mappers, modders and players, can be afraid of this. But don't you think it just might be better in the long run? If players learn to play differing ARs they will also have less trouble playing maps that have lower or higher AR than they should have, like Banned Forever or Airman (my opinion, don't kill me. thx)
As for the "This will be abused!" argument: Are you sure? I mean, surely, mappers will try to use such a new feature, and maybe it won't work out just as well as planned, but who of you decides where "abuse" starts? Isn't that term too subjective already?
If something really is just stupid in a way that it makes absolutely no sense, rhythmically or gameplay-wise, we still have modders and BATs who have the opportunity and duty to point out such issues and get rid of them. However I expect mappers, at least the experienced ones, to treat this with caution and not overuse it when it's implemented.
So that's why I want multiple ARs in a map.
Just give new stuff a chance. Try new things, adapt, and make progress. You will notice it is not all bad just because it seemed a little bit off at the beginning.
This thread lives for 3 years, why have I NEVVER seen it?
In any case, I strongly support it.
First of all, EVERYTHING I'm saying now is my own opinion. It's based on my own experiences and my own point of view, please respect that and don't insult me right off the bat.
Why do I want it?
a) BPM changes in a map.
You know, compilations made by users, maps like DeltaMAX or even just normal songs with varying AR.
AR >should be< mostly dependant on the density of objects in a map. If you have more objects, you need higher AR to make reading comfortable. And the higher your BPM, the higher your object density. This is why Banned Forever (high BPM => high density) does not seems comfortable to read for many players, we all agree here, yes?
So imagine you have a track that starts off at around 150 BPM, which, in my opinion, would work well with AR7 depending on the stream spacing n stuff, but then speeds up to 180 or 190. The AR would be far too low then. By using different ARs for different sections we could achieve two things.
First, we gain ARs that actually fit the pacing of the map.
Secondly the change of ARs implies the speedup and thus even helps the reading of said speedups. When you, as a player, see that the next approach circles are faster, you intuitively realize something will happen, and will react better.
EXAMPLE BEATMAP: ginkiha - Oriens [Extra] (Deif)
This song starts at 140 BPM and then goes up to 185. Back when I first played it I had a hard time even understanding what was going on since it's not really a sudden change or anything. It just felt off for me. Granted, I wasn't good at reading maps back then, but if there would have been an AR change in the map, I just might have had a better time reading the speedup.
b) SV changes
I know these days SV changes are kind of a controversial issue, if you do anything that exceeds what some people call "reasonable" it's instantly called abused, unreadable and BAD without second thought.
If AR could be changed according to SV, sudden slowdowns would be easier to read. Why is that? As far as I know, the current speed at which Sliderticks appear depends on the AR. Or rather, if the AR is lower, the slider will appear earlier and thus the sliderticks will appear earlier as well. That means: If you have a slowdown slider which would NOT be "readable" (in fact everything not 2B-style is technically readable, but let's just stick to that term for now) alone, using a lower AR for that AR would make the slider appear earlier, thus make the sliderticks accessible for the player to read faster and enable him to play the slider properly without needing to worry about overshooting it.
EXAMPLE BEATMAP: HujuniseikouyuuP - Sayonara Lechenaultia [Lechenaultia] or [Fay] (qq944364487)
This map uses some 0.5x SV multipliers which are kinda hard to get. A described earlier, variable AR might help for those.
c) Gimmicks
I know I'll get hate for this. But yeah I don't even care.
osu! has exceeded the state of being a simple rhythm game ages ago. By now, many mappers use various gimmicks to make their map more interesting, more challenging, more fun, more enjoyable. That includes weird spacing or SV changes, streamjumps etc. Please, guys, this is not a bad thing. You're free to dislike every gimmicky map but don't call it bad just for that reason. It's simply another form of progress.
Some like those. Others don't. It's subjective. Whether it's playable or not depends on the player's skills, NOT on the map.
I see a LOT of potential for multiple ARs to be used as a gimmick. It's possible to emphasize strong beats in the music or force the player adapt to another pace. Unless you don't change the AR with every circle so that the map will be a total mess, I can imagine this to be very fun and take "reading" to a whole new level.
Obviously, players will need to adapt to this. They are not used to adapting to new AR, let alone playing stuff like AR8 or AR10 at all (mappers putting AR9 on 132 BPM maps... *sigh*)
This would require them to learn a new skill in order to play as many maps as possible, and I can imagine that a lot of people, mappers, modders and players, can be afraid of this. But don't you think it just might be better in the long run? If players learn to play differing ARs they will also have less trouble playing maps that have lower or higher AR than they should have, like Banned Forever or Airman (my opinion, don't kill me. thx)
As for the "This will be abused!" argument: Are you sure? I mean, surely, mappers will try to use such a new feature, and maybe it won't work out just as well as planned, but who of you decides where "abuse" starts? Isn't that term too subjective already?
If something really is just stupid in a way that it makes absolutely no sense, rhythmically or gameplay-wise, we still have modders and BATs who have the opportunity and duty to point out such issues and get rid of them. However I expect mappers, at least the experienced ones, to treat this with caution and not overuse it when it's implemented.
So that's why I want multiple ARs in a map.
Just give new stuff a chance. Try new things, adapt, and make progress. You will notice it is not all bad just because it seemed a little bit off at the beginning.
Just making a tl;dr of why I don't give support to this, keep in mind this is my opinion and feel free to disagree...
The idea is awesome, I would love to see it in many maps and think it would be very cool to play, but the thing called Hard Rock make all of this pretty pointless because of the AR10 cap imposed by the system, HR basically makes AR>=7 go up to 10 (or very close to it, in AR7 case) making the whole mapper work pointless. The mapper have all the work to time the song, select a lower AR specifically for that slow part, which probably won't be bellow 7 because of the current mapping meta, then a player do not like that change and just throw the HR mod and everything is AR10 making it somewhat similar to constant BPM speed mods in Stepmania.
HR with the current maps is just a bad designed mod, it basically throws 99% of insane maps to CS5/OD10/AR10, just because there are caps for both AR and OD without the Double Time mod (and even the DT have a cap too), which is pretty ironic because you can have negative AR with the Easy and Half-time mods. And since this mod cannot be removed or redesigned without completely destroying the current ranking/scoring system, this "different Approach Rates in a map" request would be just another bad design piled up into this.
It would be really cool to play a map built like this, like Zarerion said in his post, AR, BPM, SV and snapping distance are mainly what make the feeling of the map, the variable AR could help to build an even better feeling if well executed, but in the end it's just unfair if some people are competing by using a fixed speed (AR10 with HR) the whole map long.
The idea is awesome, I would love to see it in many maps and think it would be very cool to play, but the thing called Hard Rock make all of this pretty pointless because of the AR10 cap imposed by the system, HR basically makes AR>=7 go up to 10 (or very close to it, in AR7 case) making the whole mapper work pointless. The mapper have all the work to time the song, select a lower AR specifically for that slow part, which probably won't be bellow 7 because of the current mapping meta, then a player do not like that change and just throw the HR mod and everything is AR10 making it somewhat similar to constant BPM speed mods in Stepmania.
HR with the current maps is just a bad designed mod, it basically throws 99% of insane maps to CS5/OD10/AR10, just because there are caps for both AR and OD without the Double Time mod (and even the DT have a cap too), which is pretty ironic because you can have negative AR with the Easy and Half-time mods. And since this mod cannot be removed or redesigned without completely destroying the current ranking/scoring system, this "different Approach Rates in a map" request would be just another bad design piled up into this.
It would be really cool to play a map built like this, like Zarerion said in his post, AR, BPM, SV and snapping distance are mainly what make the feeling of the map, the variable AR could help to build an even better feeling if well executed, but in the end it's just unfair if some people are competing by using a fixed speed (AR10 with HR) the whole map long.
Bump!
I was just about to make a request for this, but then I decided to save the mods some time and search for a similar request and what do you know... I found one!
Anyway, i think this feature would be really useful and it will add a new level of variety to maps.
I was just about to make a request for this, but then I decided to save the mods some time and search for a similar request and what do you know... I found one!
Anyway, i think this feature would be really useful and it will add a new level of variety to maps.
bump! please.. this needs some more discussion
^are you serious?
Not so sure about sudden changes, but being able to set a start and end point would work quite well (think - what deltamax does for tempo, you should be able to do to AR)
e.g. in the timing panel, if you set AR7 at 0ms and AR9 at 10000ms, it should be AR8 at 5000ms, AR8.5 at 7500ms, etc.
Oh, I think I made this more confusing. Oops.
e.g. in the timing panel, if you set AR7 at 0ms and AR9 at 10000ms, it should be AR8 at 5000ms, AR8.5 at 7500ms, etc.
Oh, I think I made this more confusing. Oops.
for me i think it could increase when a higher BPM is in effect and/or slider velocity increases/decreases
now I understand why it got kinda denied. The idea is good but your reasons/way to do it are just...
ugh, just not the way to do it.
ugh, just not the way to do it.
Will this result in maps with AR10 and a section of 2X approaching circle ~~
It seems to be a good idea (: but ONLY in real BPM changes. Thus, it would be available just for red lines (that ones that set BPM sections). And such things feels doing work well on drastic BPM changes only. Or in gradual increasing/decreasing BPMs.
i don´t think this may aproved,imagine, 3 hits with diferents ARs,It´s like put a normal and a insane map in the same map,If this go to osu i may be only allowed to Insane maps
I like this
For calm parts you can use 7.5-8, and for faster parts you can use 9-10 (For example Yousei Teikoku - Wahrheit)
Also this would work well for marathoncompilations and such
For calm parts you can use 7.5-8, and for faster parts you can use 9-10 (For example Yousei Teikoku - Wahrheit)
Also this would work well for marathoncompilations and such
now that I look at it again, the only useful thing about this seems to be marathons or songs that heavily change their style.
yeah, especially for song compilations where there is a heavy change in bpm, the ability to change AR to that will be definitely useful.Blue Dragon wrote:
now that I look at it again, the only useful thing about this seems to be marathons or songs that heavily change their style.
although, i CAN see people abusing this function though and there will need to be new set rules in order to prevent that.
I'm rather torn on this one. This could potentially be very bad if it was abused. Should be used very sparingly, and only if very appropriate. Would throw me off even more than SB's suddenly starting to strobe.
4 years...
We could set a rule where it's only allowed to use this for Compilations with at least four different songs. To prevent this being used in normal maps.Kibbleru wrote:
yeah, especially for song compilations where there is a heavy change in bpm, the ability to change AR to that will be definitely useful.Blue Dragon wrote:
now that I look at it again, the only useful thing about this seems to be marathons or songs that heavily change their style.
although, i CAN see people abusing this function though and there will need to be new set rules in order to prevent that.
4 different songs doesnt make sense, it should be min 2 different songs at a BPM difference that calls for different ARs. Or maybe just a high enough BPM change in one beatmap.Stefan wrote:
We could set a rule where it's only allowed to use this for Compilations with at least four different songs. To prevent this being used in normal maps.
Imagine a "compilation" with one 100 BPM song and one 300 BPM song, on the other hand, 4 different songs all within the 200-250 bpm range probably dont need different ARs.
Also speaking only with ctb gameplay in mind, i think various BPMs in one map, for instance a series of stong beats falling faster than other weaker beats would be fun.
That's actually common sense to notice a difference between 200-250 and 100-300 BPM so people probably won't change the AR every 30 seconds in case the song changes after 30 seconds.Granger wrote:
4 different songs doesnt make sense, it should be min 2 different songs at a BPM difference that calls for different ARs. Or maybe just a high enough BPM change in one beatmap.Stefan wrote:
We could set a rule where it's only allowed to use this for Compilations with at least four different songs. To prevent this being used in normal maps.
Imagine a "compilation" with one 100 BPM song and one 300 BPM song, on the other hand, 4 different songs all within the 200-250 bpm range probably dont need different ARs.
Right, however thats not the point i want to make, i am saying that your rule wording wouldnt allow a compilation with 100/300 BPM and 2 songs to use this, while this is one of the few things where different ARs would be usefull.Stefan wrote:
That's actually common sense to notice a difference between 200-250 and 100-300 BPM so people probably won't change the AR every 30 seconds in case the song changes after 30 seconds.Granger wrote:
4 different songs doesnt make sense, it should be min 2 different songs at a BPM difference that calls for different ARs. Or maybe just a high enough BPM change in one beatmap.
Imagine a "compilation" with one 100 BPM song and one 300 BPM song, on the other hand, 4 different songs all within the 200-250 bpm range probably dont need different ARs.
I... don't know about this... it could also be used in osu! mania though, sorta like freezes and slow downs in DDR.
A good example from other game: Tone sphere. The AR-changed note has a special effect to make player distinguish it from normal notes.
The ranking criteria will be very hard to amend according to this change.
The ranking criteria will be very hard to amend according to this change.
Kodora
Dont forget that some songs may have really extreme bpm jumps by themselves.Stefan wrote:
We could set a rule where it's only allowed to use this for Compilations with at least four different songs. To prevent this being used in normal maps.
Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/169858
I can't find any single AR working great here.
Mania players get along fine with it.Kitsunemimi wrote:
No because if we had this, it would be totally disorienting and unnecessary.
the way i see it is people make ar the way they want it for a reason when making their map, you dont really need to edit ar for standard osu and ctb mods like that, i think only in mania currently changing ar is something that should remain, this in other modes would be like taking the difficulty out of a map where as in mania its just for different playstyles honestly two ways i belive it should go is either this gets implemented and you get score deduction for using lower ar maybe even a higher score for higher ar or this doesnt get implemented and you can simply edit a song and make it unranked quickly
Lolwut?laishiou wrote:
the way i see it is people make ar the way they want it for a reason when making their map, you dont really need to edit ar for standard osu and ctb mods like that, i think only in mania currently changing ar is something that should remain, this in other modes would be like taking the difficulty out of a map where as in mania its just for different playstyles honestly two ways i belive it should go is either this gets implemented and you get score deduction for using lower ar maybe even a higher score for higher ar or this doesnt get implemented and you can simply edit a song and make it unranked quickly
It's for the mapper ya know?
That they be able to switch AR between parts
Not for a player who wants to get other AR
Also, I think you can only use it in compilations or maps with big changes (Wahrheit, deltaMAX etc.)
Also, limit to 1.5 change to prevent abuse
So for insanes it's between 8 and 9.5. if you set an ar, you can only change it not too much
Would be the best feature for std and ctb to implement.
This will make sight-reading nearly impossible,
please don't make standard maps even more weird!
please don't make standard maps even more weird!
formi wrote:
This will make sight-reading nearly impossible,
please don't make standard maps even more weird!
I don't undersstand, you can already troll with SV and AR10 or whatever you might think, but those kind of maps are just UNRANKABLE and will not be ranked in any future unless it makes sense. Don't add cuz it will make sightreading impossible? well, they will not be ranked if it is not sightreadable.
Don't imagine super random AR changing maps will get ranked, they will not be, but this would be great feature with some maps that have calm moment but 9 or higher AR.
think of begining parts of image material, they honestly feel very terrible untill it gets to actual "hard" parts
honestly it will be interesting, but with that thing RC should be changed(deeply changed immo), moreover, it's a huge chance of overusing or inappropriate using of that. Also player should be warned about ar change for sure (some kind of flashy effect for example) what can be a reason of fps drop and blame
well, as player i'd say no, but as mapper... it will be really cool gear to emphazising things
well, as player i'd say no, but as mapper... it will be really cool gear to emphazising things
...but as a player...EvilElvis wrote:
honestly it will be interesting, but with that thing RC should be changed(deeply changed immo), moreover, it's a huge chance of overusing or inappropriate using of that. Also player should be warned about ar change for sure (some kind of flashy effect for example) what can be a reason of fps drop and blame
well, as player i'd say no, but as mapper... it will be really cool gear to emphazising things
But I guess when the AR is changed, if implemented, the score multiplier must be also. Just like changing the keys on o!m (4K, 5K, 6K...)
Why should the multiplier change if the mapper decides to use different ARs in a map? Whats the point?BlackMidKnight wrote:
But I guess when the AR is changed, if implemented, the score multiplier must be also. Just like changing the keys on o!m (4K, 5K, 6K...)