Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Gameplay & Rankings

Making CTB mapping rankable (guideline collaboration)

posted
Total Posts
145
show more
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

KRZY wrote:

Can someone explain with sensible logic why CTB is easier than the other two modes? Because I fail to see this point.. and it seems a rather important point for supporting CTB difficulties.
In standar you can move around X and Y (CtB only X), in standar the cursor's speed can change, you don't have a fixed speed which makes the whole map to be way more complex than a CtB one since you can do lots of things you can't do in CtB because the little boy who's catching stuff can't move at any possible speed, plus you don't have the accuracy thing where you got to click with a pro timing to get full 300 on certain parts. The whole game is simpler imo, since you can do less things than in standar, you don't have "streams" since they are just about leaving the boy in a fixed place, and jumps are just... well you can't get a sudden epic jump since the guy won't get it even if you're CtB's god, then the diff you can reach will always be fixed UNLESS you go around using constant "those fruits that make you go super fast"

Just my opinion.

whymeman wrote:

That still doesn't make much sense at all to me. As far as I know, Cookizei is the best at Standard Mode and that has NOTHING to do with CTB.
He is just pointing out that what looks impossible/nobody can do it right now won't be in a few months. I remember some people telling me how everyone was like wow when that Blindstare map was FC'd for the first time in Insane, while now pretty much any decent player can easily FC that in a few tries if not in the first one. Which of course means the average level increases and everything gets harder and harder, I guess osu! won't have this problem since you actually got THOUSANDS of easy/normal/hard maps but w'/e.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

whymeman wrote:

"He's the best right now."

That still doesn't make much sense at all to me. As far as I know, Cookizei is the best at Standard Mode and that has NOTHING to do with CTB.
I am making the assertion that there exist people who are so good at a game that they change the way the game is played. This has already happened with osu! and is continuing to happen at a slow rate because people keep pushing the limits.

This hasn't happened with CTB because we haven't begun to support it yet.

mm201 wrote:

At the end of the day, this is what ranking guidelines mean: they establish some qualities a player can expect to be true for all maps. osu! isn't an art project--it's a game. So there are times when you need to compromise on your artistic vision to create a better gaming experience.
Expert CTB difficulties are all over the place in our ranked maps and these qualities do not exist currently. We need to change CTB or at least make CTB part of the ranking guidelines.

I don't have a problem with making a map just for osu (and not SSable on CTB) if there exists a CTB only difficulty of similar difficulty which is SSable in the same mapset.

We make such a big deal about ensuring that every map has an easy difficulty so that everyone can enjoy their favorite map. Why are we ignoring people who are good/will be good at CTB?
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
I don't mean to be aggressive but I think an issue here is that nobody from the main staff is actually playing this game seriously/competitively (I mean in a competitive way dunno if the word exists), which is why there was so much flaming about osz2 (and there still is), and why they sometimes (I prefer to believe that since I think an always should fit better) don't understand how good players enjoy the game, which of course is obvious, playing challenging stuff is fun, playing easy stuff is boring, everyone starts off being a newbie, but with time YOU DO get better and the game ends up being fun since there is stuff you got to drill to clear/FC, which ends up in a satisfaction when you get to your target, which again is why most people play this game, because you want to reach something and you got to "work" for getting it. When saying "every map must have an easy diff. so everyone can play it", you are simply wrong, I think the correct term should be "every map must have enjoyable diffs for, if possible, every player". Obviously everyone CAN play easy maps, but honestly whenever I start downloading the latest ranked beatmaps and sometimes see they have no insane I usually go like "well I can't enjoy playing this song". Whatever I think I went off topic (if this post isn't absolutely offtopic already).
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos

ziin wrote:

WHAT guidelines will support this?
I don't have a clue what you're talking about, since it's obviously not about the current mapping guidelines or the guidelines laid out in this thread.
I had already said that I'm pretty sure whymeman meant something completely different
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos

Wishy22 wrote:

I don't mean to be aggressive but I think an issue here is that nobody from the main staff is actually playing this game seriously/competitively (I mean in a competitive way dunno if the word exists), which is why there was so much flaming about osz2 (and there still is), and why they sometimes (I prefer to believe that since I think an always should fit better) don't understand how good players enjoy the game, which of course is obvious, playing challenging stuff is fun, playing easy stuff is boring, everyone starts off being a newbie, but with time YOU DO get better and the game ends up being fun since there is stuff you got to drill to clear/FC, which ends up in a satisfaction when you get to your target, which again is why most people play this game, because you want to reach something and you got to "work" for getting it. When saying "every map must have an easy diff. so everyone can play it", you are simply wrong, I think the correct term should be "every map must have enjoyable diffs for, if possible, every player". Obviously everyone CAN play easy maps, but honestly whenever I start downloading the latest ranked beatmaps and sometimes see they have no insane I usually go like "well I can't enjoy playing this song". Whatever I think I went off topic (if this post isn't absolutely offtopic already).
Okay this is completely off topic stuff here.
You talked about osz2.
You talked about people starting out as noobs.
I did not see one thing in that long over-explained paragraph about CTB or mapping in general.
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos

ziin wrote:

whymeman wrote:

"He's the best right now."

That still doesn't make much sense at all to me. As far as I know, Cookizei is the best at Standard Mode and that has NOTHING to do with CTB.
I am making the assertion that there exist people who are so good at a game that they change the way the game is played. This has already happened with osu! and is continuing to happen at a slow rate because people keep pushing the limits.

Using Cookiezi (because he is pro) does not help the case at all.
For one he mainly plays standard.


This hasn't happened with CTB because we haven't begun to support it yet.

mm201 wrote:

At the end of the day, this is what ranking guidelines mean: they establish some qualities a player can expect to be true for all maps. osu! isn't an art project--it's a game. So there are times when you need to compromise on your artistic vision to create a better gaming experience.
Expert CTB difficulties are all over the place in our ranked maps and these qualities do not exist currently. We need to change CTB or at least make CTB part of the ranking guidelines.

I don't have a problem with making a map just for osu (and not SSable on CTB) if there exists a CTB only difficulty of similar difficulty which is SSable in the same mapset.

We make such a big deal about ensuring that every map has an easy difficulty so that everyone can enjoy their favorite map. Why are we ignoring people who are good/will be good at CTB?
I don't see as what you said correlates with metalmario201's quote at all.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Zelos wrote:

Using Cookiezi (because he is pro) does not help the case at all.
For one he mainly plays standard.
I didn't say anything about cookiezi in my last post, though I quoted him. I revised my previous statement to refer to all games which have someone so good at the game that they change the way it is played (Wilt Chamberlain, Ray Guy, Lim Yo-Hwan, Babe Ruth). I suppose making analogies is confusing.


Zelos wrote:

I don't see as what you said correlates with metalmario201's quote at all.
The ranking guidelines establish qualities that a player can expect to be true for all maps. Expert CTB difficulties can be impossible, so the quality of being "possible" is not present for all ranked maps. (By the way, I'm only talking about ranked CTB maps here--ie ranked osu maps played on CTB). If you disagree with me then there is no reason to make CTB only maps.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi





Maybe those were needed as said by someone
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
bump
I really want this.

There is my opinion about the guidelines:

POSSIBLE CTB GUIDELINES

•Skinned elements of CTB specific maps must be exact size as in the template folder to keep accuracy of gameplay. Okay, but most of the skins are just annoting in ctb, it's better with the normal skin.

•No "StrangeProgram" style sliders. Obviously, the diff must be FCable.
http://puu.sh/1dEA
This slider is at 215 bpm with a 2x section and a slider velocity of 2.6
These style sliders are impossible to hit.

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders. I like these patterns personally, but that shouldn't be too hard.

•Burai Sliders: These technically in CTB specific maps could become rankable due to being able to actually seeing the ending in CTB mode unlike standard mode. Ask in IRC if you don't know what a Burai Slider is. Ok.

•If you have a really fast slider velocity, it is suggested that you do not use a tick rate of 4. Whit tick rate 2 is enough, more should be unrankable, is just annoying and easy to miss in fast sliders.

•Hyperdash fruits should not be abused. Abusing these could make a CTB map un-fun. So use these with care please. The best example here are verdi's maps, but the Hyperdash is not hard, the hard jumps are at the top of hyperdash and not-hyperdash.

•Use an approach rate of 8 as this is the authentic approach in the game of EZ2CATCH Not sure about this, AR8 seems REALLY slow and boring, I think the authentic approach should be 9.

•http://puu.sh/1e8V
These timing overlapping sliders are hittable in CTB but should be known that these are to never be used in CTB. They are illegal and is being stated because I know some will use these sliders. I saw some diffs with these sliders, there are no problem, but shouldn't be used because are just unnecesary.

•No hyper dash cancelling fruits. You say about the "pixel jumps"?, obviously banned, impossible to catch.

•Map must be FCable. Ok. ^

•The smallest circle size allowed is a circle size of 4. Anything smaller should not be used. I say no, CS5 is good too, I like it most of 4.

•All horizontal sliders must be 100% hittable Ok

•No sliders that are so far to the left or right that Ryuuta can't catch them. EX http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/96078 Every fruit must be in the screen, and must be catchable, there are some map that are FCeable but not SSable ...

•Please use a reasonable OD and HP drain depending on how the CTB specific was mapped. OD affects in what? I don't know really, and about the HP, I say no more than 7.

•No fruits that start directly on a spinner. Raining spinner fruits are easy to confused with normal fruits. And ending with a spinner either.

•The combo rules for standard apply here. So you may have a combo that is 16-18 long at the most. Disagree, should be less,fruits are stacked very quickly, 10 is enough.
About who can mod the difficulties, I'm one, and many other.
About why this is necessary, most of the maps are just boring in ctb, lack of jumps and intuitive patterns.

Discuss.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

eldnl wrote:

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders. I like these patterns personally, but that shouldn't be too hard.
Those patterns are one of the reason i play CtB. I think they are an entire part of the "reading" and "control" skill of a CtB player and when they're well used they're only fun (example : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27807).

I agree with AR9 for the default AR (well this depend a lot on players I think... for me AR8 is slow AR9 is normal and 10 is fast). The point is that AR9 DT are just crazy but i think CtB diff should be challenging (i mean hard but FCable) so not thinked to be DTable.

eldnl wrote:

About why this is necessary
Well, we got two things here :
- As Eldnl said : 90% of the standard maps are borring, and this is cause : when musically you hear a key part on your song in standard mapping you can add a jump to make it funnier to play and if this jump is vertical you just can't feel it in CtB mode. And you can see this with a lot of key patterns wich make a standard map fun/beautifull/etc... This is all about how the map fits with the song.
- Adapt a CtB diff for standard is just good for borring limited gameplay. I wonder what happend if someone try to rank a standard diff 140 bpm with AR9 and wierd and ugly patterns just to fit with the spacing needed for the standard guidelines. I know a good standard player wich try to play some CtB diffs on standard mode and she have a lot of fun (with no fail) but this still unrakable for standard. So i'm ok to adapt CtB diff for standard but why in this case Standard guidelines does not adapt to CtB diff ? (i know this is ridiculous and that's why CtB diff should be rankable following some guidelines).

I'll suggest two guidelines to add :
- All patterns have to be justified by the song (for example no hyperdash on a calm part of the song). This is basically what make a good standard diff and i think it totally work for CtB, this follow the guideline of "no overuse of hyperdashes/jumps on the diff".
- The second is only my opinion but... A CtB diff you play pressing permanently the dash button is a really bad diff and lost all the fun (not cause this is difficult), cause the dash is part of the gameplay and it's like you don't need this button anymore... For me the dash use should stay under 50% of the song time or something like that (not 90% as I see in some diffs...)

eldnl wrote:

About who can mod the difficulties, I'm one, and many other.
I'm one of the many other. I can map too if I like the song.
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos

HakuNoKaemi wrote:






Maybe those were needed as said by someone
arien666 would have a heart attack of love if he saw this.

Drafura wrote:

I'll suggest two guidelines to add :
- All patterns have to be justified by the song (for example no hyperdash on a calm part of the song). This is basically what make a good standard diff and i think it totally work for CtB, this follow the guideline of "no overuse of hyperdashes/jumps on the diff".
- The second is only my opinion but... A CtB diff you play pressing permanently the dash button is a really bad diff and lost all the fun (not cause this is difficult), cause the dash is part of the gameplay and it's like you don't need this button anymore... For me the dash use should stay under 50% of the song time or something like that (not 90% as I see in some diffs...)
Both of those should actually be quite obvious but who knows.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
Well most of the guidelines are actually obvious for me ^^"

Then what ? Nobody's supporting this ? Is still hope of seeing this "approved" ?
Disease_old_1
Disease_old_1
id love to see this happen. like srsly.
DaxMasterix
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
1,562 posts
Joined February 2010
DaxMasterix
POSSIBLE CTB GUIDELINES

•Skinned elements of CTB specific maps must be exact size as in the template folder to keep accuracy of gameplay. In All The ''Specific Diff's'' And Always. CtB Have a Rumor About ''The Big-Ryuuta'' helps with a High Precision For take The Fruits.. Only a Rumor.. There are no studies to prove it

•No "StrangeProgram" style sliders. <---
http://puu.sh/1dEA
This slider is at 215 bpm with a 2x section and a slider velocity of 2.6
These style sliders are impossible to hit. This Don't help in Nothing.. We Need The proportionality of BPM/SV For Explain when is Rankeable and When Not. I will Study That.. YES WE NEED HELP`.

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders. Well.. basically is A ''Zig-zag'' Jumps of 1/4 With a fast SV... This can be Rankeable if the map have a Timing Section with increased of SV or The SV Are fast. I think we can Put a Limit of SV Depending of the BPM. - The puush Shows the Double in the Bar.. I think are x2 SV

•Burai Sliders: These technically in CTB specific maps could become rankable due to being able to actually seeing the ending in CTB mode unlike standard mode. Ask in IRC if you don't know what a Burai Slider is. Yes. This doesn't Affect Much in CtB... But... If the Slider are of Corner to Corner.. And with the Magic ''Slider Tick Rate 4''... U know. A Slider Full of Droplets. Consider It Maybe for a ''exception''.

•If you have a really fast slider velocity, it is suggested that you do not use a tick rate of 4. That is my point. 4 can be Unrankeable.

•Hyperdash fruits should not be abused. Abusing these could make a CTB map un-fun. So use these with care please. The ''Hyperdashes'' Can be Unrankeable. But Rankeable With a ''Limit'' And.. ''Where you can put HyperDashed.'' Maybe in the Chorus..

•Use an approach rate of 8 as this is the authentic approach in the game of EZ2CATCH AR9 is more Funny. AR10 is Stupid & Funnyest. Like a Hard Rock. AR8.. Well.. Is ''Problematic''

•http://puu.sh/1e8V
These timing overlapping sliders are hittable in CTB but should be known that these are to never be used in CTB. They are illegal and is being stated because I know some will use these sliders. And Much more. This is Stupid.. Make This Unrankeable.. For avoid Problems.

•No hyper dash cancelling fruits. Yep, Put The explanation for the Community

•Map must be FCable. LOL OBVIOUSLY. Don't need a ''CtB Pro-Player'' For view if are FCanle or Not.. Only Testing

•The smallest circle size allowed is a circle size of 4. Anything smaller should not be used. Yes. 5 or more Unrankeable~

•All horizontal sliders must be 100% hittable Is the same with the rule ''Map must be FCable''

•No sliders that are so far to the left or right that Ryuuta can't catch them. EX http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/96078 The same.. But goog Explanation.

•Please use a reasonable OD and HP drain depending on how the CTB specific was mapped. Maximun 7 of HP and 8 of OD

•No fruits that start directly on a spinner. Raining spinner fruits are easy to confused with normal fruits. Name: Spinner-ninja. Experience: Troll Fruits. You Can't put a Note 1/4 After the Spinner. This rule Depends of the Spinner.

•The combo rules for standard apply here. So you may have a combo that is 16-18 long at the most. Except if are a ''Quiescent Stream''
huh.. all continue working \o/
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

DaxMasterix wrote:

This Don't help in Nothing.. We Need The proportionality of BPM/SV For Explain when is Rankeable and When Not. I will Study That.. YES WE NEED HELP`.
Getting the ratio is a good idea... but with that we could end to a map with pixel jumps on each sliders... i think the only thing we really need here is common sense. The exact ratio is good to know, but it don't have to turn to the : "all map's SV set to the limit rankable". But well i know common sense doesn't sounds like a rule but i can't find a better rule for this... Making a map FCable, for me, is not making a map FCable only by 2/3 pro ctb players.

Zelos wrote:

Burai Sliders
This is ugly (if the slider color didn't change it could be nice but it's not the case)... and really not needed...


DaxMasterix wrote:

The ''Hyperdashes'' Can be Unrankeable. But Rankeable With a ''Limit'' And.. ''Where you can put HyperDashed.'' Maybe in the Chorus..
I just thinked about when hyperdashes becomes really hard to play, and my conclusion was something like : "They are hard when we can't read intuitively the rythm on wich we have to play them"

So why not include a bit of spacing about this i explain my mind :
In standard mapping on 1/1 ticks should have the same spacing, then mapping on 1/2 ticks should have 1/2 spacing (i mean the real spacing distance in pixels when i say spacing here).
So applying this to CtB hyperdashes : making an Hyperdash on 1/1 ticks should have a certain spacing and 1/2 ticks have 1/2 spacing OR at least a less than the spacing used for 1/1 in order to clearly see the timing change we have to play.

I think this idea is to devellop (like using this rule only if the hyperdash is a changing direction one or adding others exceptions).


DaxMasterix wrote:

AR8.. Well.. Is ''Problematic''
In order to follow my previous idea. AR8 is terrible to read hyperdash rythm and I think it's a really bad AR for CtB diff.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
No hyper dash cancelling fruits. ? what is that?

Btw i just throw things in that i think are really annoying in CtB because i see them as unfair.

First of all 2 thing that i think are unfair:

Almost Hyper Dash overscreen dashes:
I talk about maps where you are on the one side of the screen and you get the fruit. Normally you also realize the other fruit and you can catch it.
The problem is that the fruit you catch has no hyper dash but you have to react 100% in order to get the next fruit. It is not very readable, which makes you playing this map all over again until you can remember that spot.

Horizontel hold slider dashes / jumps:
Some or most hold sliders are from left to right (repeat) and sometimes this will fill your whole plate. But it is really frustrating to wait until the first holdslider is over and then to move 100% accurate to the next hold slider because you often have no time to be accurate.
Some of them are leading to hyper dashes which doesnt make it any easier.

Well this are just my two points and you don't have to agree with them but i would like to hear your opinions about them. I hope you know what i mean.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

bomber34 wrote:

Almost Hyper Dash overscreen dashes:
I talk about maps where you are on the one side of the screen and you get the fruit. Normally you also realize the other fruit and you can catch it.
The problem is that the fruit you catch has no hyper dash but you have to react 100% in order to get the next fruit. It is not very readable, which makes you playing this map all over again until you can remember that spot.
idk if i get what you said... When you catch a fruit on the side of the screen it's part of your skill to go back to the center as fast as you can in order to predict jumps. And timing is part of your skill too, i mean if we don't make jumps why making ctb diff ? The problem and part of the discussion we have here is how hard this timing have to be to became rankable.

bomber34 wrote:

Horizontel hold slider dashes / jumps:
Some or most hold sliders are from left to right (repeat) and sometimes this will fill your whole plate. But it is really frustrating to wait until the first holdslider is over and then to move 100% accurate to the next hold slider because you often have no time to be accurate.
Some of them are leading to hyper dashes which doesnt make it any easier.
same, idk if i understood well... hmm if this is what i think meaning little return sliders with hyperdash on the end pointing to another little slider return, i found this just ugly but still playable if the hyperdashes fit with the song. Well i think it's better to use a standard stream than little slider return to make those kind of patterns.

If i don't get what you said plz give some screens to illustrate :s
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34

bomber34 wrote:

Almost Hyper Dash overscreen dashes:
I talk about maps where you are on the one side of the screen and you get the fruit. Normally you also realize the other fruit and you can catch it.
The problem is that the fruit you catch has no hyper dash but you have to react 100% in order to get the next fruit. It is not very readable, which makes you playing this map all over again until you can remember that spot.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/4629 [Insane] 0:30:696

Well i wasn't sure if i should screenshot the edit mode or playing the game. I decided to took the edit mode because i am sure you won't see it on my screenshot of playing, i think. If you use Half time this spot is a hyper dash but without it is not. There are some more on this map. Play it and see if you can predict them on first try.
I am aware this is an old map and so on. But i already saw that on newer maps too and some are actually worse. (if i find them again i will Edit this post.)

Horizontal hold slider dashes / jumps:
I also will play through my maps again to find good examples but before that i try explaining it again.
Horizontal Hold sliders (or short sliders with many repeats, whatever you call them) fill out almost your whole plate (sometimes).
That means you want to put Ryuutu exactly under that repeat so you don't have to move yourself or you have no choice because the repeats are so fast. However if you have for example a huge jump between two of them it is very hard to get the fruits.
This one i would say is okay but it is also the one i get mad most of the time.
I will post examples when i find them ( I have no time right now).
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

bomber34 wrote:

There are some more on this map. Play it and see if you can predict them on first try.
Fc first try, don't see anything really hardcore on it. It's not cause rythm doesn't seems present in the gameplay of ctb that it means you never need it... And the fun things are when you need a good timing actually. However as i said before the dificulty of the jumps is what we mainly have to talk about here.

bomber34 wrote:

Horizontal hold slider dashes / jumps:
I also will play through my maps again to find good examples but before that i try explaining it again.
Horizontal Hold sliders (or short sliders with many repeats, whatever you call them) fill out almost your whole plate (sometimes).
That means you want to put Ryuutu exactly under that repeat so you don't have to move yourself or you have no choice because the repeats are so fast. However if you have for example a huge jump between two of them it is very hard to get the fruits.
This one i would say is okay but it is also the one i get mad most of the time.
I will post examples when i find them ( I have no time right now).
ok that's what i understood from your previous post.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
Sorry about double posting, but this not concern at all my last post...

I was thinking on a rule wich forbid HS volume = mute. It's annoying cause HS is the better way to know if you hit on ctb.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I read the guidelines, and I'd make most rules, actually. They're quite good too, I really like them.

However, I'd rather advice AR9 and OD8 for Insane difficulties, AR7 and OD7 for Hard difficulties. (assuming there will be any Hard CtB diff). AR8 isn't easy to read and I get confused a whole lot, while AR9 is readable (after some practice because it's kinda fast lol)

I wish you all good luck for this, I hope you can bring this to be actual rules and guidelines and we can rank CtB difficulties some day.

Also Pixel jumps should be forbidden altogether.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34

Drafura wrote:

bomber34 wrote:

There are some more on this map. Play it and see if you can predict them on first try.
Fc first try, don't see anything really hardcore on it. It's not cause rythm doesn't seems present in the gameplay of ctb that it means you never need it... And the fun things are when you need a good timing actually. However as i said before the dificulty of the jumps is what we mainly have to talk about here.

bomber34 wrote:

Horizontal hold slider dashes / jumps:
I also will play through my maps again to find good examples but before that i try explaining it again.
Horizontal Hold sliders (or short sliders with many repeats, whatever you call them) fill out almost your whole plate (sometimes).
That means you want to put Ryuutu exactly under that repeat so you don't have to move yourself or you have no choice because the repeats are so fast. However if you have for example a huge jump between two of them it is very hard to get the fruits.
This one i would say is okay but it is also the one i get mad most of the time.
I will post examples when i find them ( I have no time right now).
ok that's what i understood from your previous post.
-.-' I just realized that my "bad explained" point about the Horizontal sliders are actually in the guidelines already. sry D:
And to my other point I think Odaril found the right words. "pixel jumps" (at least i hope we both mean the same with this.)
well, sry for my stupidity but i just wanted to help :)
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
The delicate point here is to determine what is a pixel jump any ideas ?
NeoRainier
508 posts
Joined April 2010
NeoRainier

Drafura wrote:

The delicate point here is to determine what is a pixel jump any ideas ?
I'm really in a doubt about this...it's number 1 or 2?

1

2
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
None of them. My idea of a pixel jump is:

O - - - - O - - - - O

A jump from the far left to the far right (or the other way around) with a non-hyperdashed fruit in the middle.

About the difficulty settings:
- Insane: AR9.
- Hard: AR8, 7 is too slow IMO.
- Normal/Easy: Dunno really if that kind of difficulties can be CTB specific. Nevertheless, Taiko has its Fuutsu and Kantan, so everything is possible :p

OD will depend on how hard is the diff or not, with a reasonable HP drain. CS should be set to a medium-big size (I think it's CS2).

CTB diffs will be named Insane, Hard, etc, or will they be named with another concept?

There are still many questions without an answer...
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
About the CtB names:
Well i think we should make clear with the diff name that it is CtB like in Taiko with Oni, Muzukashii und Futsuu.
well i am not very creative with this but we could call them
[CtB] Easy, [CtB] Hard,[CtB] Insane?
or
Fruit Salad,Fruit bowl, Fruit buffet (ok that is very weak xD)

and pixel jumps:
I would go with NeoRainier second picture but i would say you can't really see it there, it seems simple still.

I would say pixel jumps are fruits where you have literally no time to react. Like a hyper dash without hyper dash or so.
Like I said earlier i play through my beatmaps and look for that.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I describe hyperjumps as jumps that are doable without hyperdash but need a placement accurate to a few osu!pixels. These usually become hyperdashes with HR or DT iirc.
They're annoying to play and retardedly hard.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
I also didn't found anything about breaks in the guidelines yet.
Should CtB have breaks like in standard mode?, or no breaks like in Taiko?
I would say no breaks because CtB isn't really exhausting . What do you think?

to the pixel jumps:
I agree with Odaril about them. I would say that they are also hyperdashes with HT.
Last edited by bomber34 , edited 1 time in total.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

Odaril wrote:

I describe hyperjumps as jumps that are doable without hyperdash but need a placement accurate to a few osu!pixels. These usually become hyperdashes with HR or DT iirc.
They're annoying to play and retardedly hard.
I have likely the same definition about really hard jumps but i have to rectify something.

HR makes appear Hyperdashes. <- that's those 'none' jumps i feel hard but they are really not so hard with a very good timing. Maybe it can became the maximum jump we can find in a CtB Diff. With these kind of jumps if we got a hard pattern just before it just become crazy to hit each plays.

DT makes disappear hyperdashes and make hyperdashes (those which still in the map) really really hard to catch. It's the opposite. I think most of hyperdashes cancelled by DT are doable but i'm not sure since i'm not a pro in double time i still sometimes catch somes on some low bpm maps wich requires less timing precision.

For the diff name why don't go for the typical guest diff standard wich is (or as to be) <mapper>'s CTB <diff>.

About breaks... I don't see them as a bad thing... this could be likely the same guideline as in standard : no more than 15-20 sec.

I bump my idea of making rules about spacing for hyperdash (in order to make them more readable) and the volume of HS = mute forbidden.
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos
Concerning breaks, I believe that should be the same with standard.

Also what should I be updating here in the OP?
(Preferably stuff that was brought to consensus)
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
For now, nothing I guess. We need to reach an agreement about pixel jumps.
For breaks, same rules as standard sounds fine.
ZHSteven
osu! Alumni
1,012 posts
Joined July 2009
ZHSteven
Finally, good to see we still have BAT care about this problem.
Thanks Odaril. I hope we can discuss and finally get a good guideline for CTB map being rankable.

Odaril wrote:

I read the guidelines, and I'd make most rules, actually. They're quite good too, I really like them.

However, I'd rather advice AR9 and OD8 for Insane difficulties, AR7 and OD7 for Hard difficulties. (assuming there will be any Hard CtB diff). AR8 isn't easy to read and I get confused a whole lot, while AR9 is readable (after some practice because it's kinda fast lol)
I think AR7 in CTB for normal player(I mean not pro player) is actually harder.
Because you know, for a hard diff, it should be made for normal player to easily FC.
If everyone is FCing that map, to get a higher rank, +mods is the only choice.
Ok then come to the problem. So far as I know, for an AR 7 map in CTB with hidden mod, it is actually harder than AR8. that is mainly because in AR7, the fruit drops slower and makes it harder to grasp the timing of dropped fruit.
plus AR7 hard to add HR(for speed: AR7+HR=AR9.5) and DT(AR9) also, I think AR8 will still fit the so called "hard" CTB map, because it is much easier to add "Hidden" mod.

I wish you all good luck for this, I hope you can bring this to be actual rules and guidelines and we can rank CtB difficulties some day.

Also Pixel jumps should be forbidden altogether.
For the so-called pixel jumps(I would like to call it "bug jump"), I remembered I have done a test in about 1 year ago, but not finished.
This is the test map
I need to finished and gather some data from that map.
Thanks again.

Edit: seems there is no defination of bug jump, so I just give a try for it. hope it will be helpful.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bug jump means you should use one side edge to catch the first fruit and another side edge to catch the second.
Think about this kind of scenario:

A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F

ABCDEF represents the possible place of the plate, and ◎ represents note.

Then lets go to the scenario above. There are two limit jumps in the scenario, to catch the first two, u should be at B point and use the left edge to catch the first, and then hold the dash all the time, and u are just be able to reach C and catch the second one. But you should be at D when u catch the second one as the prerequisites to catch third one, so the third one must be missed if u catch the first two.

here is a possible scenario I made:
SPOILER

referance:http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=39866&p=582441#p582441
Last edited by ZHSteven , edited 4 times in total.
Mercurial
Mercurial
So far as I know, for an AR 7 map in CTB with hidden mod, it is actually harder than AR8. that is mainly because in AR7, the fruit drops slower and makes it harder to grasp the timing of dropped fruit.
plus AR7 hard to add HR(for speed: AR7+HR=AR9.5) and DT(AR9) also, I think AR8 will still fit the so called "hard" CTB map, because it is much easier to add "Hidden" mod.
So true... AR7 is a big problem for non-experienced users 'cause (with or without Hidden) is so annoying catch the fruits meanwhile they fallen SLOOOOOOOOOWLY (Believe me, this is a sh*t problem)

btw, I'm glad to see Odaril here :)

We're in the right way o/
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
I hope this can help to improve/test these guidelines:

CTB difficulties modding assistance

People are beginning to make playable and enjoyful CTB diffs, that's why I decided to make this project.

If anybody's interested in joining at that modding stuff, contact me via PM.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
About the Breaks again:
After playing this CtB diff. i tought that breaks aren't [really] necessary in CtB.
The standard rule/guideline about breaks is to have some of them around a minute or where it is possible because of recovery time for hands/repositioning.
I would say that you don't need breaks in CtB but you can add them where the music doesn't really allow mapping.

I say that because when I play standard converted CtB it is really boring, playing doesn't really strain your hands and or so and you can't do much there D:
This was just a small note to my older post

Btw I think I will start mapping some CtB diffs. soon for your queque Deif :3
I just need to have some time D:
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
I want to add some patterns to the "Rankable Section" that I've seen while modding some CTB maps:

1st: Stacked Sliders:



By Steven. I'm ok with their use, only if the end of a slider and the beginning of the next one are perfectly stacked (Distance Snap = 0).


2nd: Hold-Sliders:



By CLSW. Sliders with many 1/8 repetitions, used instead of regular sliders.


3rd: Hold-Stream:



By CLSW. 1/8 streams, similar idea to Hold-Sliders. The only difference between them is the shape of the "slider":

Hold-Slider
Hold-Stream
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Bump. Huge overhaul of the ctb guidelines.
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos
Those first stacked sliders are just no. Simply no.

ANYWAYS!

DeathxShinigami and I had a conversation about the OP and a slight few changes were made

Here is the log. (WARNING! INCREDBILY LONG! NOTE SINCE IT IS ALL CTB GUIDELINE TALK, BAT DONT GET MAD PLEASE!)
AGAIN YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! VERY LONG!

SPOILER
21:44 <BanchoBot> : Match history available (here)[http://osu.ppy.sh/mp/2609958].
21:45 <DeathxShinigami> : Alright
21:45 <Zelos> : alrite ready.
21:45 <DeathxShinigami> : So
21:46 <DeathxShinigami> : About my position on AR9 since I don't like my own self quote
21:46 <Zelos> : ok.
21:47 <DeathxShinigami> : It's actually more of a per beatmap sort of situation when it comes to using AR9 for ctb
21:48 <DeathxShinigami> : You have to actually think first not about making the beatmap insane but making sure it fits within your beatmap set as if you were going
21:48 <DeathxShinigami> :  for a regular rank
21:49 <DeathxShinigami> : I think the main problem with trying to get ranking guidelines is that a majority of the outspoken "pros" of ctb think only of the hardest 
21:49 <DeathxShinigami> : maps and tend to think of along the lines of approval
21:49 <Zelos> : so what you're saying is the AR should fit the song and not the difficulty of the actual map?
21:49 <DeathxShinigami> : Yes, you shouldn't have a mapset that contains 2 easy difficulties for ctb then some crazy insane AR9+ insane diff
21:50 <DeathxShinigami> : If that makes any sense
21:50 <Zelos> : so basically it should follow the same sort of spread standard follows?
21:50 <DeathxShinigami> : Yeah
21:51 <Zelos> : alrite I will make note of that.
21:51 <DeathxShinigami> : Also back to the point of Ranked/Approved
21:52 <DeathxShinigami> : I don't think the ctb community is realzing completely that if they want ranked ctb maps they will be ranked
21:52 <DeathxShinigami> : Maybe they should aim for a mixed approval system that some mapsets have?
21:52 <Zelos> : mixed approval?
21:52 <DeathxShinigami> : Like mapsets that contain both approved and ranked maps
21:53 <Zelos> : oh. I see. so maybe what your saying is in the mixed sets have the CTB be approved while the rest is ranked?
21:53 <DeathxShinigami> : With some of these rules that a majority of the players seem to agree upon I don't see them sitting so well with a ranked map situation
21:54 <DeathxShinigami> : Yeah exactly like that
21:55 <Zelos> : its a logical solution yes but people would make the arguement "shouldn't that apply to taiko as well then?"
21:55 <DeathxShinigami> : But wait
21:55 <DeathxShinigami> : The deal with taiko is that they choose to make "taiko only" maps
21:55 <DeathxShinigami> : While some actually go to the point and make pretty in my opinion fun taikosu! maps
21:56 <DeathxShinigami> : And I remember peppy did in fact publically state in a thread somewhere that he was "open" to changing the approval system for all 
21:56 <DeathxShinigami> : beatmaps
21:58 <Zelos> : hmm.
21:59 <Zelos> : alrite so now I believe why you would want the CTB to go for approval.
21:59 <DeathxShinigami> : Well I don't believe in an united "ctb ranking" at this point
21:59 <DeathxShinigami> : Yeah
21:59 <DeathxShinigami> : I hope it makes sense
21:59 <Zelos> : it would be pretty hard to be able to make a legit insane diff that is jumping all over the fucking place while still being fun on insane.
21:59 <Zelos> : *Still being fun on CTB i mean
22:00 <DeathxShinigami> : Yeah
22:00 <DeathxShinigami> : Also you would have to cater to everyone, I don't think pros care about "new ctb'ers" at all when they express their opinion about ctb 
22:00 <DeathxShinigami> : guidelines at all
22:00 <Zelos> : alrite making a note for that.
22:00 <DeathxShinigami> : Full frontal insane maps doesn't always fix everything
22:01 <DeathxShinigami> : Right now I'm just stating broad issues, not specifics so~
22:01 <DeathxShinigami> : Just stuff I've noticed the ctb community has a hard time dealing with
22:03 <Zelos> : alrite just one moment while I make some slight edits based on our conversatio.
22:03 <DeathxShinigami> : Also if you wouldn't mind and I hope I'm not sounding controlling but before you edit the OP I'd like to see the changes you're going to 
22:03 <DeathxShinigami> : make
22:03 <Zelos> : thats not a problem.
22:03 <DeathxShinigami> : And honestly I'm rather against "ctb only" maps
22:04 <DeathxShinigami> : At the most they could be with fellow osu!standard maps attached as a "ctb diff"
22:04 <DeathxShinigami> : Anyways brb myself, gotta find something to drink
22:04 <Zelos> : I could see why you are against CTB only but its rather hard to make a fun insane standard while not being mediocre on CTB
22:07 <DeathxShinigami> : back
22:07 <DeathxShinigami> : Ehhhh
22:07 <DeathxShinigami> : I'm guessing you have a lot of time huh?
22:07 <Zelos> : yes.
22:08 <DeathxShinigami> : Okay
22:08 <DeathxShinigami> : Let's look at what I call a very good example of a mixed ctb/osu! map
22:08 <DeathxShinigami> : Er
22:08 <Zelos> : downloading
22:08 <DeathxShinigami> : inb4 we have to play this
22:08 <DeathxShinigami> : I could explain but
22:10 <Zelos> : but?
22:11 <DeathxShinigami> : Do you need to play it?
22:11 <DeathxShinigami> : That's the real thing
22:11 <Zelos> : Ive never quite played this before
22:11 <Zelos> : also hai haneii :3
22:11 <Haneii> : Hello, Zelos :)
22:12 <Haneii> : Using this map as an example?
22:12 <Haneii> : o_O
22:12 <DeathxShinigami> : Unfortunately yes
22:12 <DeathxShinigami> : There's another Louis map I'd like to show too
22:12 <DeathxShinigami> : Also don't get any ideas about inviting others
22:12 <DeathxShinigami> : ;p
22:12 <Zelos> : I figured not.
22:13 <Haneii> : oh, I'll won't interrupt anymore.
22:13 <Zelos> : hm?
22:13 <DeathxShinigami> : Anyways Louis is a mapper who obviously cares about both ctb mapping and can map osu! standard as well
22:13 <Zelos> : yeah ive noticed that.
22:13 <DeathxShinigami> : And most of the time comes out with decent mapsets (although at times not balanced)
22:13 <DeathxShinigami> : Even though Louis has gotten flamed from both sides
22:14 <DeathxShinigami> : just an example of mixed mapping for the ctb community
22:14 <Zelos> : according to the general osu population, you either like or hate Louic Cyphre spacing. no inbetween so I hear.
22:14 <DeathxShinigami> : I actually like both
22:14 <DeathxShinigami> : I'm such an odd ball to begin with though
22:15 <Zelos> : I like Louis spacing for its randomness sometimes.
22:16 <DeathxShinigami> : Okay
22:16 <DeathxShinigami> : I'm sure everyone knows this map
22:16 <Zelos> : it would be kind of hard not to know.
22:16 <DeathxShinigami> : I call this, well
22:16 <DeathxShinigami> : It's an okay example for what ctb'ers call "insane"
22:16 <DeathxShinigami> : and it's actually mainstream
22:17 <Zelos> : quite honestly its not that hard aside from a few jumps on CTB
22:17 <DeathxShinigami> : :u
22:17 <DeathxShinigami> : I said "okay"
22:17 <DeathxShinigami> : I might be stretching my opinions a bit due to being not as mainstream and not knowing what ctb'ers call insane
22:17 <Zelos> : oh. I didnt realize thats what you meant by that, sorry.
22:18 <DeathxShinigami> : It's fine
22:18 <DeathxShinigami> : Might be easier to look at what's on the op so far then?
22:18 <Zelos> : sure lemme click preview then give you the link
22:18 <Zelos> : http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/posting.php?mode=edit&f=13&sid=e29214030d747bbfc4e09ed062a1316e&t=55363&p=887460
22:20 <DeathxShinigami> : hum
22:20 <DeathxShinigami> : mind uh
22:20 <DeathxShinigami> : Link's too long
22:20 <DeathxShinigami> : ^^;
22:20 <Zelos> : derp. k i will tinyurl it.
22:20 <Zelos> : ...it appears odaril added some wonderfulness to the OP about "no utter bitching"
22:21 <Zelos> : http://goo.gl/m1IsI
22:21 <DeathxShinigami> : I uh can't edit posts?
22:21 <DeathxShinigami> : *view
22:21 <Zelos> : what do you mean?
22:22 <DeathxShinigami> : you're still in editor
22:22 <DeathxShinigami> : I'd screenshot what you have so I could see it?
22:22 <Zelos> : oh poot.
22:22 <Zelos> : yeah one moment
22:23 <Zelos> : alrite here is sc #1 http://puu.sh/gtI6
22:23 <Zelos> : and sc #2 http://puu.sh/gtIh
22:24 <DeathxShinigami> : Got them
22:24 <DeathxShinigami> : Also change my "X" please
22:24 <DeathxShinigami> : lower case lol
22:24 <DeathxShinigami> : I'm kinda ocd about my name xD
22:25 <Zelos> : okay lol
22:26 <DeathxShinigami> : What do you mean about the "slider velocity"?
22:26 <DeathxShinigami> : Could you get a little more detail about that for me?
22:27 <Zelos> : which one? the about the "If you have a really fast SV?"
22:27 <DeathxShinigami> : Yeah
22:27 <DeathxShinigami> : Like I suppose just say scenarios about how to use them more?
22:28 <DeathxShinigami> : You don't have to tell me but there should be more specifics about that on the op
22:28 <Zelos> : well at the time what I mean is if you have a fast SV, you shouldnt use tickrate 4 as it would be really easy to combo break.
22:28 <Zelos> : oh
22:28 <DeathxShinigami> : Oh okay
22:28 <DeathxShinigami> : I'm guessing you should know this map right?
22:29 <Zelos> : yes. the murderous 2x sliders on CTB Q.Q
22:30 <DeathxShinigami> : Yeah
22:30 <DeathxShinigami> : I think you should mention something about the dreaded back and forth 2x sliders
22:30 <DeathxShinigami> : Why they should be discouraged to use
22:30 <DeathxShinigami> : I mean I don't really like them, dunno about you
22:31 <Zelos> : I don't. Those are abusive.
22:31 <DeathxShinigami> : But yeah
22:31 <DeathxShinigami> : gonna mention that?
22:32 <DeathxShinigami> : It'd make a great example of "what not to do"
22:32 <Zelos> : sure. gimme one moment.
22:34 <DeathxShinigami> : okay
22:35 <Zelos> : k added.
22:36 <DeathxShinigami> : I'd insert a brief mention of what "EZ2CATCH" is
22:36 <DeathxShinigami> : What it actually means
22:36 <DeathxShinigami> : Seems rather "if you know it you know it" sort of thing atm
22:36 <DeathxShinigami> : I bet people are curious
22:37 <Zelos> : hmm. k one moment for that as well.
22:37 <DeathxShinigami> : Sorry but this is kinda why I didn't want to make a huge ass "almost mod post" on the entire OP
22:38 <DeathxShinigami> : It's nicer when I could work 1v1 on something this big
22:39 <Zelos> : yes ofc.
22:39 <Zelos> : alrite added a few lines on EZ2CATCH
22:41 <DeathxShinigami> : Is it just me or does the "burai slider" mention seem awkward?
22:41 <Zelos> : brb one moment. i have to help my dad with groceries. type out what you have next though so I can read it when I get back.
22:41 <DeathxShinigami> : okay
22:41 <Zelos> : I just added it in just incase because I know some will attempt it. but yeah brb
22:42 <Zelos> : okay back, faster than I thought.
22:42 <DeathxShinigami> : ah
22:43 <DeathxShinigami> : I'd still reword burai sliders, and take out the irc bit, it might be better to just full on mention it
22:43 <DeathxShinigami> : Later on you could just take what it looks like in standard even and it'd make a lot more sense
22:44 <Zelos> : now that I think about it, is the burai slider part really necessary at all?
22:44 <DeathxShinigami> : It might not
22:44 <Zelos> : I didnt think so
22:44 <DeathxShinigami> : Actually sounds more like a "when it's used it'll be mentioned" part
22:45 <Zelos> : I shall just remove it then.
22:45 <DeathxShinigami> : I'd also put the ax on the overlapping sliders bit as well
22:45 <DeathxShinigami> : It's not even used in osu!standard in the way it's mentioned now
22:46 <Zelos> : the timing overlapping sliders?
22:46 <DeathxShinigami> : Yeah
22:46 <DeathxShinigami> : It doesn't even make sense to begin with
22:46 <Zelos> : I kinda fucked up the puush link anyway .-.
22:47 <Zelos> : right that has been removed now
22:47 <DeathxShinigami> : Okay
22:48 <DeathxShinigami> : Add details to "Map must be FCable" mention things that would make the map not FCable
22:48 <DeathxShinigami> : that can be done later on
22:49 <Zelos> : I will throw something in like "I.E Hyper Dash cancelling fruits that make it impossible to make it to the next fruit"
22:50 <DeathxShinigami> : Yeah
22:51 <DeathxShinigami> : Smallest circle size?
22:51 <DeathxShinigami> : That's really subjective
22:51 <DeathxShinigami> : Again has to do with a per map basis
22:51 <DeathxShinigami> : I'd say 7 is definetly almost always unusable though
22:52 <Zelos> : so what do you suggest I change about that rule?
22:52 <DeathxShinigami> : I'd throw in 5 at the minimum
22:52 <DeathxShinigami> : That's what standard maps are using
22:53 <DeathxShinigami> : CS 5 actually looks bigger in fruit form than in circle form too
22:53 <DeathxShinigami> : 4 or 5 really
22:53 <DeathxShinigami> : Everything else is at a "per map basis"
22:53 <Zelos> : hmm. alrite.
22:56 <DeathxShinigami> : The OD and HP drain should be the same as osu! standard's rule on that right?
22:57 <Zelos> : did I say something else otherwise?
22:57 <Zelos> : oh.
22:58 <DeathxShinigami> : you stated based on the ctb map
22:58 <DeathxShinigami> : But I think that it's universal so
22:58 <DeathxShinigami> : It's not like taiko where drain determines passing the map or not
22:59 <Zelos> : alrite. shall be removed then.
22:59 <DeathxShinigami> : K
22:59 <DeathxShinigami> : Combo rule needs to be shortened since in ctb slider fruits add up on the plate fast if they're on the same combo
23:00 <DeathxShinigami> : And in osu! standard a slider is just 1 combo number unlike ctb
23:01 <Zelos> : .....I didnt even think about that.
23:02 <DeathxShinigami> : Yeah, I'm like everywhere on this ctb guidelines
23:02 <DeathxShinigami> : Call me spider man ;p
23:02 <Zelos> : right changed around the comboing rules.
23:04 <DeathxShinigami> : The introduction at the very top of the OP needs reviving, a little outdated
23:05 <Zelos> : yeah I should probably remove the very first line....
23:05 <DeathxShinigami> : Edit out my old bit about AR9, add in what I said today
23:05 <Zelos> : that was done.
23:05 <DeathxShinigami> : The end could use some nice cleanup as well, seems rather messy after all the rules then into some unorganized comments
23:07 <Zelos> : I think im going to move some of the bottom a little further up
23:07 <DeathxShinigami> : Alright
23:07 <DeathxShinigami> : I am done...
23:07 <Zelos> : alrite. i shall take some SCs for you
23:08 <DeathxShinigami> : Okay
23:08 <DeathxShinigami> : I may have more things to say later but must not be important or I'd remember
23:09 <Zelos> : http://puu.sh/gtUw #1
23:09 <Zelos> : http://puu.sh/gtUF #2
23:10 <DeathxShinigami> : it's not slider ticks rather but slider ends
23:10 <DeathxShinigami> : Like in back and forth sliders
23:11 <Zelos> : which part?
23:11 <DeathxShinigami> : http://puu.sh/gtUF
23:11 <DeathxShinigami> : At combo's
23:12 <Zelos> : how should I reword it?
23:13 <DeathxShinigami> : You don't need to mention slider ticks, those go off the plate when they connect/hit, mention how on the slider the reverse arrow in ctb 
23:13 <DeathxShinigami> : becomes an actual ctb fruit
23:13 <DeathxShinigami> : and so forth until the slider ends
23:14 <Zelos> : im a bit confused here.
23:15 <DeathxShinigami> : Mmm
23:15 <DeathxShinigami> : Here's a slider, in ctb it's fruit with a bunch of drops attached
23:15 <Zelos> : yes
23:15 <DeathxShinigami> : At the end of the slider there's an ending fruit just like a normal ctb fruit
23:15 <DeathxShinigami> : Therefore the combo for that slider would be 2
23:15 <DeathxShinigami> : in osu! standard that would be just 1
23:16 <Zelos> : OHH! okay.
23:16 <DeathxShinigami> : So in a back and forth slider it would be
23:16 <DeathxShinigami> : Well yeah that many fruits still within that combo
23:16 <DeathxShinigami> : before a new combo begins
23:18 <DeathxShinigami> : I'd also throw in (I don't know how) but mentions of the new points I made at the very beginning of our chat
23:19 <Zelos> : I was gonna make a post of our log in a spoilerbox.
23:19 <DeathxShinigami> : Holy
23:19 <DeathxShinigami> : I'd do some editing of that
23:19 <DeathxShinigami> : it's pretty huge tbh
23:19 <DeathxShinigami> : But I'm okay with it
23:20 <Zelos> : hence the spoilerbox, if a BAT really has a problem with it, he or she would edit it himself but considering its mostly CTB guideline talk and it has a 
23:20 <Zelos> : purpose, it shouldnt be a problem.
23:20 <DeathxShinigami> : Okay
23:20 <DeathxShinigami> : Makes sense
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
For me every fruits should have his own logic depending on the song so using Hold-sliders and hold stream can be okay but using them and mute them cause that doesn't fit with the song, for me this is not an option. If the fruit doesn't fit with the song don't put it. And that's one of the reason all hitsound should be heard. So if the 1/8 sounds good in the song it's ok, else use 1/4 or 1/2 to make a hold.

Oh and i don't understand what's EZ2CATCH doing here... Osu! is like Ouendan but can you find maps like banned forever in Ouendan ? No, wanna play Ouendan play Ouendan wanna play EZ2CATCH just play EZ2CATCH. AR8 is okay but why it should be "AR7 for easy" "AR8 for normals" "AR9 for hard" this makes no sense AR should only depend on bpm to make a map easier to read. AR8 200 bpm is like a giant spinner. AR7 could be hard AR8 could be hard too, as same as AR9 could be hard. If you look some rankings you can see some AR9 top40 full FC and AR8 top10 only FC.

One of the reason CtB players wants CtB diff rankable is to get more challenge. A challenge we can't make with standard rule set, not impossible, just challenging isn't this hard to understand ? Making easy CtB diff is not a bad idea, but since it can be done using standard rule set AND a lot of standards maps are actually good for CtB training at low level why is this necessary ?
Last edited by Drafura , edited 4 times in total.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro

Deif wrote:

I want to add some patterns to the "Rankable Section" that I've seen while modding some CTB maps:

1st: Stacked Sliders:



By Steven. I'm ok with their use, only if the end of a slider and the beginning of the next one are perfectly stacked (Distance Snap = 0).
This is not rankable and CtB won't be an exception.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

Odaril wrote:

Deif wrote:

I want to add some patterns to the "Rankable Section" that I've seen while modding some CTB maps:

1st: Stacked Sliders:



By Steven. I'm ok with their use, only if the end of a slider and the beginning of the next one are perfectly stacked (Distance Snap = 0).
This is not rankable and CtB won't be an exception.
I agree with this. It makes no sense, even within a ctb frame of mind since it's just putting droplets between what can be 2 regular notes.
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos

Drafura wrote:

For me every fruits should have his own logic depending on the song so using Hold-sliders and hold stream can be okay but using them and mute them cause that doesn't fit with the song, for me this is not an option. If the fruit doesn't fit with the song don't put it. And that's one of the reason all hitsound should be heard. So if the 1/8 sounds good in the song it's ok, else use 1/4 or 1/2 to make a hold.

Oh and i don't understand what's EZ2CATCH doing here... Osu! is like Ouendan but can you find maps like banned forever in Ouendan ? No, wanna play Ouendan play Ouendan wanna play EZ2CATCH just play EZ2CATCH. AR8 is okay but why it should be "AR7 for easy" "AR8 for normals" "AR9 for hard" this makes no sense AR should only depend on bpm to make a map easier to read. AR8 200 bpm is like a giant spinner. AR7 could be hard AR8 could be hard too, as same as AR9 could be hard. If you look some rankings you can see some AR9 top40 full FC and AR8 top10 only FC.

One of the reason CtB players wants CtB diff rankable is to get more challenge. A challenge we can't make with standard rule set, not impossible, just challenging isn't this hard to understand ? Making easy CtB diff is not a bad idea, but since it can be done using standard rule set AND a lot of standards maps are actually good for CtB training at low level why is this necessary ?
I think you missed the point completely as to how AR for CTB is supposed to work.
You should not set the CTB to AR9 just because its insane nor should you set something to AR5 or 7 just because its easy.
If this hasn't been proven in standard mapping as well, your AR should be based on the speed, style, and genre of the SONG
EX: A nice relaxing 100BPM song with a fun CTB insane shouldn't have an AR of 9. A fast paced 200BPM song with a fun CTB insane shouldn't really have an AR of 5.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

Zelos wrote:

I think you missed the point completely as to how AR for CTB is supposed to work.
You should not set the CTB to AR9 just because its insane nor should you set something to AR5 or 7 just because its easy.
If this hasn't been proven in standard mapping as well, your AR should be based on the speed, style, and genre of the SONG
EX: A nice relaxing 100BPM song with a fun CTB insane shouldn't have an AR of 9. A fast paced 200BPM song with a fun CTB insane shouldn't really have an AR of 5.
Actually you just said what i was saying... The AR should not fit with EZ2CATCH but only with the song OR the patterns you're going to use. AR is in fact a readability factor.

And when I saw :



I thought you was talking about making AR depending on difficulty. I mean making an easy diff on standard with AR9 is wtf, and I think an easy diff with AR9 in CtB is totally correct if this fit with the song. That's why i've talked about that. Did I missunderstood ?

---------------
I agree with Odaril and Shiirn, patterns with overlapping sliders /notes and Burai sliders shouldn't be ranked.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
About silent hitsounds (hitsounds themselves) I want them unrankable. They're unrankable in standard, and standard and CtB have the same feedback value from hitting notes or catching fruits.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
^Agree with this
Mercurial
Mercurial

Odaril wrote:

standard and CtB have the same feedback value from hitting notes or catching fruits.
^ Agree too.
ZHSteven
osu! Alumni
1,012 posts
Joined July 2009
ZHSteven

Ephemeral wrote:

That list is too sparse and imprecise in its current state. That is why I have repeatedly suggested that the CtB community come together and discuss it properly before we go ahead with this.
Seems CTB diff are ready to be rankable, only need to clearify some of the rules.
So, I will try to point out some of the issues that needs to be clear define.
POSSIBLE CTB GUIDELINES

•Skinned elements of CTB specific maps must be exact size as in the template folder to keep accuracy of gameplay.
Exactly.

•No "StrangeProgram" style sliders.
http://puu.sh/1dEA
This slider is at 215 bpm with a 2x section and a slider velocity of 2.6
These style sliders are impossible to hit.
Here, I think we need to define which kind of sliders is so called "strangeprogram" style sliders. Picture is not enough evidence here.
As my point of view, reason of these kind of slider appears is we use too high bpm and high slider velocity, result in the start note and the end note of these slider becoming a bug jump.
So about these point , I will rephrase like this:
Check out the beginning postion and the endding postion of the longest path of the slider. If equivalent 2 note placing these 2 postion will result in a bug jump, these slider will porbably not be rankable.

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders.
again we need to define how much is a "fast slider velocity".
I forgot where but I know surely that there is a defination of speed of the slider. If I am not wrong, it is the slider velocity*BPM.
If that is that case, Based on my testing map, I would like to limit this factor to 500.
That means, if your BPM* slider velocity is greater than 500, you will not suggest to put the "double backing sliders" parttern which introduced above.
(for the data I think we need to double check with mm201(I think he is the expert for this lol)

•If you have a really fast slider velocity, it is suggested that you do not use a tick rate of 4. Using a tick rate 4 with a fast slider velocity makes it so much more easier to combo break. (Try making a hard fun map, not one that makes the player mad)
Exactly
•Something you should not do is use 2x sliders that kick back at a very fast pace. (Play Banned Forever mapped by Blue Dragon for an example)
This creates more pain then it does fun and not only that, they are incredibly easy to mess up on.
Exactly, but I still think we need to define "how fast is fast".

These above 4 point is all about sliders. So I think it is better summerize it together.

•Hyperdash fruits should not be abused. Abusing these could make a CTB map un-fun. So use these with care please.
This is the most important rule. I think we need to hightlight this among the rule.

•The authentic approach rate to match EZ2CATCH is AR8 however if your SONG fits AR9, use AR9 if you would like. Use it with care.
Here, Drafura's idea is great. Using BPMs to manage the Approaching rate is the best way I think we can do it.
(sorry I forget the details.. :( )
But I think there is still some exceptions...
•No hyper dash cancelling fruits.
This point is useless becuse next point we already introducing this.
•Map must be FCable.
EX: No hyper dash cancelling fruits. Those make it impossible to make it to the next fruit thus breaking the combo.
For this point, I think we need to well define what is a hyper dash cancelling fruit.
Defination for Hyper dash cancelling fruit(bug jump):
The bug jump means you should use one side edge to catch the first fruit and another side edge to catch the second.
Which is there is a hyperdash jump, but when you put a note in the middle of the jump, there is a high possibility makes the hyper dash back to normal jump.
Belows are the explaination in detail.
Think about this kind of scenario:

A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F

ABCDEF represents the possible place of the plate, and ◎ represents note.

Then lets go to the scenario above. There are two limit jumps in the scenario, to catch the first two, u should be at B point and use the left edge to catch the first, and then hold the dash all the time, and u are just be able to reach C and catch the second one. But you should be at D when u catch the second one as the prerequisites to catch third one, so the third one must be missed if u catch the first two.

here is a possible scenario I made:

referance:http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=39866&p=582441#p582441


•The smallest circle size allowed is a circle size of 5. Anything smaller should not be used.
Exactly.
Reason: when people playing with a low resolution, extremely small circle size will cause people's eyes goes mad.

•All horizontal sliders must be 100% hittable
Useless point, which already state above.

•No sliders that are so far to the left or right that Ryuuta can't catch them. EX http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/96078
I'd like to rephrase:
No note or droplet out of the playing area.

•No fruits that start directly on a spinner. Raining spinner fruits are easy to confused with normal fruits.
I'd like to rephrase: the minimum distance between a note and a spinner is 1/3(including Note+ spinner and spinner+note). smaller distance will cause fruit hidden inside the spinner confusing players.

•Comboing is different in CTB so when using sliders with slider ends. In CTB, slider ends count as 2 fruits (or more if you are using a kickback slider) on a plate so count your combos wisely and don't make them super huge.
I am not sure about this point.
So far as I know, the reason why the score difference between a standard diff and a CTB diff is that big is

For standard, the end of the slider is count in as a combo, but not count in combo bonus score. That means, no matter how high a combo you achieve, the end of the slider you can only get 300 score. if you fail to get the "note" in the end of the slider, the previous note will count as a "100" and you failed to get the combo for the end of the slider.
But CTB is different. Because the slider here is treat as a note, so both beginning and ending note of the slider get combo bonns score.

So my point is, the combo difference between standard diff and ctb diff is only because of spinner in ctb dont count in as combo.

•If you have more than 1 CTB difficulty (say 2-3) please make sure it has a decent spread such as NH, ENH, NHI (etc)
Exactly true.
Hope I can help for the guideline.
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos

ZHSteven wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

That list is too sparse and imprecise in its current state. That is why I have repeatedly suggested that the CtB community come together and discuss it properly before we go ahead with this.
Seems CTB diff are ready to be rankable, only need to clearify some of the rules.
So, I will try to point out some of the issues that needs to be clear define.
POSSIBLE CTB GUIDELINES

•Skinned elements of CTB specific maps must be exact size as in the template folder to keep accuracy of gameplay.
Exactly.

•No "StrangeProgram" style sliders.
http://puu.sh/1dEA
This slider is at 215 bpm with a 2x section and a slider velocity of 2.6
These style sliders are impossible to hit.
Here, I think we need to define which kind of sliders is so called "strangeprogram" style sliders. Picture is not enough evidence here.
As my point of view, reason of these kind of slider appears is we use too high bpm and high slider velocity, result in the start note and the end note of these slider becoming a bug jump.
So about these point , I will rephrase like this:
Check out the beginning postion and the endding postion of the longest path of the slider. If equivalent 2 note placing these 2 postion will result in a bug jump, these slider will porbably not be rankable.

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders.
again we need to define how much is a "fast slider velocity".
I forgot where but I know surely that there is a defination of speed of the slider. If I am not wrong, it is the slider velocity*BPM.
If that is that case, Based on my testing map, I would like to limit this factor to 500.
That means, if your BPM* slider velocity is greater than 500, you will not suggest to put the "double backing sliders" parttern which introduced above.
(for the data I think we need to double check with mm201(I think he is the expert for this lol)

•If you have a really fast slider velocity, it is suggested that you do not use a tick rate of 4. Using a tick rate 4 with a fast slider velocity makes it so much more easier to combo break. (Try making a hard fun map, not one that makes the player mad)
Exactly
•Something you should not do is use 2x sliders that kick back at a very fast pace. (Play Banned Forever mapped by Blue Dragon for an example)
This creates more pain then it does fun and not only that, they are incredibly easy to mess up on.
Exactly, but I still think we need to define "how fast is fast".

These above 4 point is all about sliders. So I think it is better summerize it together.

•Hyperdash fruits should not be abused. Abusing these could make a CTB map un-fun. So use these with care please.
This is the most important rule. I think we need to hightlight this among the rule.

•The authentic approach rate to match EZ2CATCH is AR8 however if your SONG fits AR9, use AR9 if you would like. Use it with care.
Here, Drafura's idea is great. Using BPMs to manage the Approaching rate is the best way I think we can do it.
(sorry I forget the details.. :( )
But I think there is still some exceptions...
•No hyper dash cancelling fruits.
This point is useless becuse next point we already introducing this.
•Map must be FCable.
EX: No hyper dash cancelling fruits. Those make it impossible to make it to the next fruit thus breaking the combo.
For this point, I think we need to well define what is a hyper dash cancelling fruit.
Defination for Hyper dash cancelling fruit(bug jump):
The bug jump means you should use one side edge to catch the first fruit and another side edge to catch the second.
Which is there is a hyperdash jump, but when you put a note in the middle of the jump, there is a high possibility makes the hyper dash back to normal jump.
Belows are the explaination in detail.
Think about this kind of scenario:

A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F

ABCDEF represents the possible place of the plate, and ◎ represents note.

Then lets go to the scenario above. There are two limit jumps in the scenario, to catch the first two, u should be at B point and use the left edge to catch the first, and then hold the dash all the time, and u are just be able to reach C and catch the second one. But you should be at D when u catch the second one as the prerequisites to catch third one, so the third one must be missed if u catch the first two.

here is a possible scenario I made:

referance:http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=39866&p=582441#p582441


•The smallest circle size allowed is a circle size of 5. Anything smaller should not be used.
Exactly.
Reason: when people playing with a low resolution, extremely small circle size will cause people's eyes goes mad.

•All horizontal sliders must be 100% hittable
Useless point, which already state above.

•No sliders that are so far to the left or right that Ryuuta can't catch them. EX http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/96078
I'd like to rephrase:
No note or droplet out of the playing area.

•No fruits that start directly on a spinner. Raining spinner fruits are easy to confused with normal fruits.
I'd like to rephrase: the minimum distance between a note and a spinner is 1/3(including Note+ spinner and spinner+note). smaller distance will cause fruit hidden inside the spinner confusing players.

•Comboing is different in CTB so when using sliders with slider ends. In CTB, slider ends count as 2 fruits (or more if you are using a kickback slider) on a plate so count your combos wisely and don't make them super huge.
I am not sure about this point.
So far as I know, the reason why the score difference between a standard diff and a CTB diff is that big is

For standard, the end of the slider is count in as a combo, but not count in combo bonus score. That means, no matter how high a combo you achieve, the end of the slider you can only get 300 score. if you fail to get the "note" in the end of the slider, the previous note will count as a "100" and you failed to get the combo for the end of the slider.
But CTB is different. Because the slider here is treat as a note, so both beginning and ending note of the slider get combo bonns score.

So my point is, the combo difference between standard diff and ctb diff is only because of spinner in ctb dont count in as combo.

•If you have more than 1 CTB difficulty (say 2-3) please make sure it has a decent spread such as NH, ENH, NHI (etc)
Exactly true.
Hope I can help for the guideline.
Quite honestly that is tl;dr. can you tell me what you want changed instead of listing the ones you agree with as well?
Just the ones you want to change or modify please.
ZHSteven
osu! Alumni
1,012 posts
Joined July 2009
ZHSteven
oh no sorry.. Since Ephemeral says the guideline is not formal as it is, Il just try to point something.
But Shriin has rewritten it in the new rule post, I guess it is useless from now..
Sorry again
DJKero
231 posts
Here since the beginning
DJKero
Hey guys, i think its better to ask peppy if he can set the "Relax mode" as Default mode and the currently Default mode to Max. Diff. mode, i think it should be really better and funny to play CTB like EZ2Catch...

For the guys will inmediatly start saying "For that go to an Arcade and play EZ2Catch." I'm pre-saying to them that in my country EZ2DJ's was got broken and didn't fixed, modded to fit to Guitar hero machines and taken to outside the country, yeah, here arcade owners sucks a lot...

So like all of we know, ctb is a ripoff of ez2catch... isn't a newly made concept idea or somewhat like that, is a ripoff, like taiko mode is too...

Why the hell not actually make it more friendly like ez2catch?... :(?
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
Nice necro-bumping. First of all, this is not the correct thread to request that. It's better if you do it HERE.

On the other hand, CTB diffs are already rankable and there's already a thread to polish the rules/guidelines: t/80544. So this thread is not useful anymore.
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
95 / 145