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Making CTB mapping rankable (guideline collaboration)

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lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
What I'm worried about is, at least Taiko map has some standardized methods to map and most of Taiko mappers are familiar with it, because they are using Taiko no Tatsujin as reference and have made Taiko diffs for quite long time, even before the Taiko map surge which started about 1.5 years ago. But in CtB not many players have experience of mapping and there wasn't that active communication between CtB mappers, as I know. Even some ranked Taiko maps have low quality due to failed quality control, what will be happened if you are not ready for this? So that's why I emphasized practical experience of mappers and lots of participants for this discussion, to find out how we will make the maps and prove it's better than playing osu standard maps with CtB mode, and I think whymeman's 'HOW' is similar, maybe.

Unfortunatly I think I can't make it cause I have almost no CtB experience.

EDIT:
Oh and rise of overall ability of players is actually one of general problems that every rhythm games have. Cookizei is just some kind of symbol of it in osu, that's all.
whymeman
osu! Alumni
3,432 posts
Joined November 2008
whymeman
Look, i'm not here to destroy hopes and dreams. I'm just trying to get the serious thoughts going so it doesn't seem like "wishful thinking". Anyways, i'll leave this as my last post from this topic.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
[offtopic]

We love you, whymeman.

[/offtopic]
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

KRZY wrote:

Can someone explain with sensible logic why CTB is easier than the other two modes? Because I fail to see this point.. and it seems a rather important point for supporting CTB difficulties.
In standar you can move around X and Y (CtB only X), in standar the cursor's speed can change, you don't have a fixed speed which makes the whole map to be way more complex than a CtB one since you can do lots of things you can't do in CtB because the little boy who's catching stuff can't move at any possible speed, plus you don't have the accuracy thing where you got to click with a pro timing to get full 300 on certain parts. The whole game is simpler imo, since you can do less things than in standar, you don't have "streams" since they are just about leaving the boy in a fixed place, and jumps are just... well you can't get a sudden epic jump since the guy won't get it even if you're CtB's god, then the diff you can reach will always be fixed UNLESS you go around using constant "those fruits that make you go super fast"

Just my opinion.

whymeman wrote:

That still doesn't make much sense at all to me. As far as I know, Cookizei is the best at Standard Mode and that has NOTHING to do with CTB.
He is just pointing out that what looks impossible/nobody can do it right now won't be in a few months. I remember some people telling me how everyone was like wow when that Blindstare map was FC'd for the first time in Insane, while now pretty much any decent player can easily FC that in a few tries if not in the first one. Which of course means the average level increases and everything gets harder and harder, I guess osu! won't have this problem since you actually got THOUSANDS of easy/normal/hard maps but w'/e.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

whymeman wrote:

"He's the best right now."

That still doesn't make much sense at all to me. As far as I know, Cookizei is the best at Standard Mode and that has NOTHING to do with CTB.
I am making the assertion that there exist people who are so good at a game that they change the way the game is played. This has already happened with osu! and is continuing to happen at a slow rate because people keep pushing the limits.

This hasn't happened with CTB because we haven't begun to support it yet.

mm201 wrote:

At the end of the day, this is what ranking guidelines mean: they establish some qualities a player can expect to be true for all maps. osu! isn't an art project--it's a game. So there are times when you need to compromise on your artistic vision to create a better gaming experience.
Expert CTB difficulties are all over the place in our ranked maps and these qualities do not exist currently. We need to change CTB or at least make CTB part of the ranking guidelines.

I don't have a problem with making a map just for osu (and not SSable on CTB) if there exists a CTB only difficulty of similar difficulty which is SSable in the same mapset.

We make such a big deal about ensuring that every map has an easy difficulty so that everyone can enjoy their favorite map. Why are we ignoring people who are good/will be good at CTB?
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
I don't mean to be aggressive but I think an issue here is that nobody from the main staff is actually playing this game seriously/competitively (I mean in a competitive way dunno if the word exists), which is why there was so much flaming about osz2 (and there still is), and why they sometimes (I prefer to believe that since I think an always should fit better) don't understand how good players enjoy the game, which of course is obvious, playing challenging stuff is fun, playing easy stuff is boring, everyone starts off being a newbie, but with time YOU DO get better and the game ends up being fun since there is stuff you got to drill to clear/FC, which ends up in a satisfaction when you get to your target, which again is why most people play this game, because you want to reach something and you got to "work" for getting it. When saying "every map must have an easy diff. so everyone can play it", you are simply wrong, I think the correct term should be "every map must have enjoyable diffs for, if possible, every player". Obviously everyone CAN play easy maps, but honestly whenever I start downloading the latest ranked beatmaps and sometimes see they have no insane I usually go like "well I can't enjoy playing this song". Whatever I think I went off topic (if this post isn't absolutely offtopic already).
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos

ziin wrote:

WHAT guidelines will support this?
I don't have a clue what you're talking about, since it's obviously not about the current mapping guidelines or the guidelines laid out in this thread.
I had already said that I'm pretty sure whymeman meant something completely different
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos

Wishy22 wrote:

I don't mean to be aggressive but I think an issue here is that nobody from the main staff is actually playing this game seriously/competitively (I mean in a competitive way dunno if the word exists), which is why there was so much flaming about osz2 (and there still is), and why they sometimes (I prefer to believe that since I think an always should fit better) don't understand how good players enjoy the game, which of course is obvious, playing challenging stuff is fun, playing easy stuff is boring, everyone starts off being a newbie, but with time YOU DO get better and the game ends up being fun since there is stuff you got to drill to clear/FC, which ends up in a satisfaction when you get to your target, which again is why most people play this game, because you want to reach something and you got to "work" for getting it. When saying "every map must have an easy diff. so everyone can play it", you are simply wrong, I think the correct term should be "every map must have enjoyable diffs for, if possible, every player". Obviously everyone CAN play easy maps, but honestly whenever I start downloading the latest ranked beatmaps and sometimes see they have no insane I usually go like "well I can't enjoy playing this song". Whatever I think I went off topic (if this post isn't absolutely offtopic already).
Okay this is completely off topic stuff here.
You talked about osz2.
You talked about people starting out as noobs.
I did not see one thing in that long over-explained paragraph about CTB or mapping in general.
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos

ziin wrote:

whymeman wrote:

"He's the best right now."

That still doesn't make much sense at all to me. As far as I know, Cookizei is the best at Standard Mode and that has NOTHING to do with CTB.
I am making the assertion that there exist people who are so good at a game that they change the way the game is played. This has already happened with osu! and is continuing to happen at a slow rate because people keep pushing the limits.

Using Cookiezi (because he is pro) does not help the case at all.
For one he mainly plays standard.


This hasn't happened with CTB because we haven't begun to support it yet.

mm201 wrote:

At the end of the day, this is what ranking guidelines mean: they establish some qualities a player can expect to be true for all maps. osu! isn't an art project--it's a game. So there are times when you need to compromise on your artistic vision to create a better gaming experience.
Expert CTB difficulties are all over the place in our ranked maps and these qualities do not exist currently. We need to change CTB or at least make CTB part of the ranking guidelines.

I don't have a problem with making a map just for osu (and not SSable on CTB) if there exists a CTB only difficulty of similar difficulty which is SSable in the same mapset.

We make such a big deal about ensuring that every map has an easy difficulty so that everyone can enjoy their favorite map. Why are we ignoring people who are good/will be good at CTB?
I don't see as what you said correlates with metalmario201's quote at all.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Zelos wrote:

Using Cookiezi (because he is pro) does not help the case at all.
For one he mainly plays standard.
I didn't say anything about cookiezi in my last post, though I quoted him. I revised my previous statement to refer to all games which have someone so good at the game that they change the way it is played (Wilt Chamberlain, Ray Guy, Lim Yo-Hwan, Babe Ruth). I suppose making analogies is confusing.


Zelos wrote:

I don't see as what you said correlates with metalmario201's quote at all.
The ranking guidelines establish qualities that a player can expect to be true for all maps. Expert CTB difficulties can be impossible, so the quality of being "possible" is not present for all ranked maps. (By the way, I'm only talking about ranked CTB maps here--ie ranked osu maps played on CTB). If you disagree with me then there is no reason to make CTB only maps.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi





Maybe those were needed as said by someone
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
bump
I really want this.

There is my opinion about the guidelines:

POSSIBLE CTB GUIDELINES

•Skinned elements of CTB specific maps must be exact size as in the template folder to keep accuracy of gameplay. Okay, but most of the skins are just annoting in ctb, it's better with the normal skin.

•No "StrangeProgram" style sliders. Obviously, the diff must be FCable.
http://puu.sh/1dEA
This slider is at 215 bpm with a 2x section and a slider velocity of 2.6
These style sliders are impossible to hit.

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders. I like these patterns personally, but that shouldn't be too hard.

•Burai Sliders: These technically in CTB specific maps could become rankable due to being able to actually seeing the ending in CTB mode unlike standard mode. Ask in IRC if you don't know what a Burai Slider is. Ok.

•If you have a really fast slider velocity, it is suggested that you do not use a tick rate of 4. Whit tick rate 2 is enough, more should be unrankable, is just annoying and easy to miss in fast sliders.

•Hyperdash fruits should not be abused. Abusing these could make a CTB map un-fun. So use these with care please. The best example here are verdi's maps, but the Hyperdash is not hard, the hard jumps are at the top of hyperdash and not-hyperdash.

•Use an approach rate of 8 as this is the authentic approach in the game of EZ2CATCH Not sure about this, AR8 seems REALLY slow and boring, I think the authentic approach should be 9.

•http://puu.sh/1e8V
These timing overlapping sliders are hittable in CTB but should be known that these are to never be used in CTB. They are illegal and is being stated because I know some will use these sliders. I saw some diffs with these sliders, there are no problem, but shouldn't be used because are just unnecesary.

•No hyper dash cancelling fruits. You say about the "pixel jumps"?, obviously banned, impossible to catch.

•Map must be FCable. Ok. ^

•The smallest circle size allowed is a circle size of 4. Anything smaller should not be used. I say no, CS5 is good too, I like it most of 4.

•All horizontal sliders must be 100% hittable Ok

•No sliders that are so far to the left or right that Ryuuta can't catch them. EX http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/96078 Every fruit must be in the screen, and must be catchable, there are some map that are FCeable but not SSable ...

•Please use a reasonable OD and HP drain depending on how the CTB specific was mapped. OD affects in what? I don't know really, and about the HP, I say no more than 7.

•No fruits that start directly on a spinner. Raining spinner fruits are easy to confused with normal fruits. And ending with a spinner either.

•The combo rules for standard apply here. So you may have a combo that is 16-18 long at the most. Disagree, should be less,fruits are stacked very quickly, 10 is enough.
About who can mod the difficulties, I'm one, and many other.
About why this is necessary, most of the maps are just boring in ctb, lack of jumps and intuitive patterns.

Discuss.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

eldnl wrote:

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders. I like these patterns personally, but that shouldn't be too hard.
Those patterns are one of the reason i play CtB. I think they are an entire part of the "reading" and "control" skill of a CtB player and when they're well used they're only fun (example : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27807).

I agree with AR9 for the default AR (well this depend a lot on players I think... for me AR8 is slow AR9 is normal and 10 is fast). The point is that AR9 DT are just crazy but i think CtB diff should be challenging (i mean hard but FCable) so not thinked to be DTable.

eldnl wrote:

About why this is necessary
Well, we got two things here :
- As Eldnl said : 90% of the standard maps are borring, and this is cause : when musically you hear a key part on your song in standard mapping you can add a jump to make it funnier to play and if this jump is vertical you just can't feel it in CtB mode. And you can see this with a lot of key patterns wich make a standard map fun/beautifull/etc... This is all about how the map fits with the song.
- Adapt a CtB diff for standard is just good for borring limited gameplay. I wonder what happend if someone try to rank a standard diff 140 bpm with AR9 and wierd and ugly patterns just to fit with the spacing needed for the standard guidelines. I know a good standard player wich try to play some CtB diffs on standard mode and she have a lot of fun (with no fail) but this still unrakable for standard. So i'm ok to adapt CtB diff for standard but why in this case Standard guidelines does not adapt to CtB diff ? (i know this is ridiculous and that's why CtB diff should be rankable following some guidelines).

I'll suggest two guidelines to add :
- All patterns have to be justified by the song (for example no hyperdash on a calm part of the song). This is basically what make a good standard diff and i think it totally work for CtB, this follow the guideline of "no overuse of hyperdashes/jumps on the diff".
- The second is only my opinion but... A CtB diff you play pressing permanently the dash button is a really bad diff and lost all the fun (not cause this is difficult), cause the dash is part of the gameplay and it's like you don't need this button anymore... For me the dash use should stay under 50% of the song time or something like that (not 90% as I see in some diffs...)

eldnl wrote:

About who can mod the difficulties, I'm one, and many other.
I'm one of the many other. I can map too if I like the song.
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos

HakuNoKaemi wrote:






Maybe those were needed as said by someone
arien666 would have a heart attack of love if he saw this.

Drafura wrote:

I'll suggest two guidelines to add :
- All patterns have to be justified by the song (for example no hyperdash on a calm part of the song). This is basically what make a good standard diff and i think it totally work for CtB, this follow the guideline of "no overuse of hyperdashes/jumps on the diff".
- The second is only my opinion but... A CtB diff you play pressing permanently the dash button is a really bad diff and lost all the fun (not cause this is difficult), cause the dash is part of the gameplay and it's like you don't need this button anymore... For me the dash use should stay under 50% of the song time or something like that (not 90% as I see in some diffs...)
Both of those should actually be quite obvious but who knows.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
Well most of the guidelines are actually obvious for me ^^"

Then what ? Nobody's supporting this ? Is still hope of seeing this "approved" ?
Disease_old_1
Disease_old_1
id love to see this happen. like srsly.
DaxMasterix
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
1,562 posts
Joined February 2010
DaxMasterix
POSSIBLE CTB GUIDELINES

•Skinned elements of CTB specific maps must be exact size as in the template folder to keep accuracy of gameplay. In All The ''Specific Diff's'' And Always. CtB Have a Rumor About ''The Big-Ryuuta'' helps with a High Precision For take The Fruits.. Only a Rumor.. There are no studies to prove it

•No "StrangeProgram" style sliders. <---
http://puu.sh/1dEA
This slider is at 215 bpm with a 2x section and a slider velocity of 2.6
These style sliders are impossible to hit. This Don't help in Nothing.. We Need The proportionality of BPM/SV For Explain when is Rankeable and When Not. I will Study That.. YES WE NEED HELP`.

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders. Well.. basically is A ''Zig-zag'' Jumps of 1/4 With a fast SV... This can be Rankeable if the map have a Timing Section with increased of SV or The SV Are fast. I think we can Put a Limit of SV Depending of the BPM. - The puush Shows the Double in the Bar.. I think are x2 SV

•Burai Sliders: These technically in CTB specific maps could become rankable due to being able to actually seeing the ending in CTB mode unlike standard mode. Ask in IRC if you don't know what a Burai Slider is. Yes. This doesn't Affect Much in CtB... But... If the Slider are of Corner to Corner.. And with the Magic ''Slider Tick Rate 4''... U know. A Slider Full of Droplets. Consider It Maybe for a ''exception''.

•If you have a really fast slider velocity, it is suggested that you do not use a tick rate of 4. That is my point. 4 can be Unrankeable.

•Hyperdash fruits should not be abused. Abusing these could make a CTB map un-fun. So use these with care please. The ''Hyperdashes'' Can be Unrankeable. But Rankeable With a ''Limit'' And.. ''Where you can put HyperDashed.'' Maybe in the Chorus..

•Use an approach rate of 8 as this is the authentic approach in the game of EZ2CATCH AR9 is more Funny. AR10 is Stupid & Funnyest. Like a Hard Rock. AR8.. Well.. Is ''Problematic''

•http://puu.sh/1e8V
These timing overlapping sliders are hittable in CTB but should be known that these are to never be used in CTB. They are illegal and is being stated because I know some will use these sliders. And Much more. This is Stupid.. Make This Unrankeable.. For avoid Problems.

•No hyper dash cancelling fruits. Yep, Put The explanation for the Community

•Map must be FCable. LOL OBVIOUSLY. Don't need a ''CtB Pro-Player'' For view if are FCanle or Not.. Only Testing

•The smallest circle size allowed is a circle size of 4. Anything smaller should not be used. Yes. 5 or more Unrankeable~

•All horizontal sliders must be 100% hittable Is the same with the rule ''Map must be FCable''

•No sliders that are so far to the left or right that Ryuuta can't catch them. EX http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/96078 The same.. But goog Explanation.

•Please use a reasonable OD and HP drain depending on how the CTB specific was mapped. Maximun 7 of HP and 8 of OD

•No fruits that start directly on a spinner. Raining spinner fruits are easy to confused with normal fruits. Name: Spinner-ninja. Experience: Troll Fruits. You Can't put a Note 1/4 After the Spinner. This rule Depends of the Spinner.

•The combo rules for standard apply here. So you may have a combo that is 16-18 long at the most. Except if are a ''Quiescent Stream''
huh.. all continue working \o/
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

DaxMasterix wrote:

This Don't help in Nothing.. We Need The proportionality of BPM/SV For Explain when is Rankeable and When Not. I will Study That.. YES WE NEED HELP`.
Getting the ratio is a good idea... but with that we could end to a map with pixel jumps on each sliders... i think the only thing we really need here is common sense. The exact ratio is good to know, but it don't have to turn to the : "all map's SV set to the limit rankable". But well i know common sense doesn't sounds like a rule but i can't find a better rule for this... Making a map FCable, for me, is not making a map FCable only by 2/3 pro ctb players.

Zelos wrote:

Burai Sliders
This is ugly (if the slider color didn't change it could be nice but it's not the case)... and really not needed...


DaxMasterix wrote:

The ''Hyperdashes'' Can be Unrankeable. But Rankeable With a ''Limit'' And.. ''Where you can put HyperDashed.'' Maybe in the Chorus..
I just thinked about when hyperdashes becomes really hard to play, and my conclusion was something like : "They are hard when we can't read intuitively the rythm on wich we have to play them"

So why not include a bit of spacing about this i explain my mind :
In standard mapping on 1/1 ticks should have the same spacing, then mapping on 1/2 ticks should have 1/2 spacing (i mean the real spacing distance in pixels when i say spacing here).
So applying this to CtB hyperdashes : making an Hyperdash on 1/1 ticks should have a certain spacing and 1/2 ticks have 1/2 spacing OR at least a less than the spacing used for 1/1 in order to clearly see the timing change we have to play.

I think this idea is to devellop (like using this rule only if the hyperdash is a changing direction one or adding others exceptions).


DaxMasterix wrote:

AR8.. Well.. Is ''Problematic''
In order to follow my previous idea. AR8 is terrible to read hyperdash rythm and I think it's a really bad AR for CtB diff.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
No hyper dash cancelling fruits. ? what is that?

Btw i just throw things in that i think are really annoying in CtB because i see them as unfair.

First of all 2 thing that i think are unfair:

Almost Hyper Dash overscreen dashes:
I talk about maps where you are on the one side of the screen and you get the fruit. Normally you also realize the other fruit and you can catch it.
The problem is that the fruit you catch has no hyper dash but you have to react 100% in order to get the next fruit. It is not very readable, which makes you playing this map all over again until you can remember that spot.

Horizontel hold slider dashes / jumps:
Some or most hold sliders are from left to right (repeat) and sometimes this will fill your whole plate. But it is really frustrating to wait until the first holdslider is over and then to move 100% accurate to the next hold slider because you often have no time to be accurate.
Some of them are leading to hyper dashes which doesnt make it any easier.

Well this are just my two points and you don't have to agree with them but i would like to hear your opinions about them. I hope you know what i mean.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

bomber34 wrote:

Almost Hyper Dash overscreen dashes:
I talk about maps where you are on the one side of the screen and you get the fruit. Normally you also realize the other fruit and you can catch it.
The problem is that the fruit you catch has no hyper dash but you have to react 100% in order to get the next fruit. It is not very readable, which makes you playing this map all over again until you can remember that spot.
idk if i get what you said... When you catch a fruit on the side of the screen it's part of your skill to go back to the center as fast as you can in order to predict jumps. And timing is part of your skill too, i mean if we don't make jumps why making ctb diff ? The problem and part of the discussion we have here is how hard this timing have to be to became rankable.

bomber34 wrote:

Horizontel hold slider dashes / jumps:
Some or most hold sliders are from left to right (repeat) and sometimes this will fill your whole plate. But it is really frustrating to wait until the first holdslider is over and then to move 100% accurate to the next hold slider because you often have no time to be accurate.
Some of them are leading to hyper dashes which doesnt make it any easier.
same, idk if i understood well... hmm if this is what i think meaning little return sliders with hyperdash on the end pointing to another little slider return, i found this just ugly but still playable if the hyperdashes fit with the song. Well i think it's better to use a standard stream than little slider return to make those kind of patterns.

If i don't get what you said plz give some screens to illustrate :s
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34

bomber34 wrote:

Almost Hyper Dash overscreen dashes:
I talk about maps where you are on the one side of the screen and you get the fruit. Normally you also realize the other fruit and you can catch it.
The problem is that the fruit you catch has no hyper dash but you have to react 100% in order to get the next fruit. It is not very readable, which makes you playing this map all over again until you can remember that spot.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/4629 [Insane] 0:30:696

Well i wasn't sure if i should screenshot the edit mode or playing the game. I decided to took the edit mode because i am sure you won't see it on my screenshot of playing, i think. If you use Half time this spot is a hyper dash but without it is not. There are some more on this map. Play it and see if you can predict them on first try.
I am aware this is an old map and so on. But i already saw that on newer maps too and some are actually worse. (if i find them again i will Edit this post.)

Horizontal hold slider dashes / jumps:
I also will play through my maps again to find good examples but before that i try explaining it again.
Horizontal Hold sliders (or short sliders with many repeats, whatever you call them) fill out almost your whole plate (sometimes).
That means you want to put Ryuutu exactly under that repeat so you don't have to move yourself or you have no choice because the repeats are so fast. However if you have for example a huge jump between two of them it is very hard to get the fruits.
This one i would say is okay but it is also the one i get mad most of the time.
I will post examples when i find them ( I have no time right now).
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

bomber34 wrote:

There are some more on this map. Play it and see if you can predict them on first try.
Fc first try, don't see anything really hardcore on it. It's not cause rythm doesn't seems present in the gameplay of ctb that it means you never need it... And the fun things are when you need a good timing actually. However as i said before the dificulty of the jumps is what we mainly have to talk about here.

bomber34 wrote:

Horizontal hold slider dashes / jumps:
I also will play through my maps again to find good examples but before that i try explaining it again.
Horizontal Hold sliders (or short sliders with many repeats, whatever you call them) fill out almost your whole plate (sometimes).
That means you want to put Ryuutu exactly under that repeat so you don't have to move yourself or you have no choice because the repeats are so fast. However if you have for example a huge jump between two of them it is very hard to get the fruits.
This one i would say is okay but it is also the one i get mad most of the time.
I will post examples when i find them ( I have no time right now).
ok that's what i understood from your previous post.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
Sorry about double posting, but this not concern at all my last post...

I was thinking on a rule wich forbid HS volume = mute. It's annoying cause HS is the better way to know if you hit on ctb.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I read the guidelines, and I'd make most rules, actually. They're quite good too, I really like them.

However, I'd rather advice AR9 and OD8 for Insane difficulties, AR7 and OD7 for Hard difficulties. (assuming there will be any Hard CtB diff). AR8 isn't easy to read and I get confused a whole lot, while AR9 is readable (after some practice because it's kinda fast lol)

I wish you all good luck for this, I hope you can bring this to be actual rules and guidelines and we can rank CtB difficulties some day.

Also Pixel jumps should be forbidden altogether.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34

Drafura wrote:

bomber34 wrote:

There are some more on this map. Play it and see if you can predict them on first try.
Fc first try, don't see anything really hardcore on it. It's not cause rythm doesn't seems present in the gameplay of ctb that it means you never need it... And the fun things are when you need a good timing actually. However as i said before the dificulty of the jumps is what we mainly have to talk about here.

bomber34 wrote:

Horizontal hold slider dashes / jumps:
I also will play through my maps again to find good examples but before that i try explaining it again.
Horizontal Hold sliders (or short sliders with many repeats, whatever you call them) fill out almost your whole plate (sometimes).
That means you want to put Ryuutu exactly under that repeat so you don't have to move yourself or you have no choice because the repeats are so fast. However if you have for example a huge jump between two of them it is very hard to get the fruits.
This one i would say is okay but it is also the one i get mad most of the time.
I will post examples when i find them ( I have no time right now).
ok that's what i understood from your previous post.
-.-' I just realized that my "bad explained" point about the Horizontal sliders are actually in the guidelines already. sry D:
And to my other point I think Odaril found the right words. "pixel jumps" (at least i hope we both mean the same with this.)
well, sry for my stupidity but i just wanted to help :)
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
The delicate point here is to determine what is a pixel jump any ideas ?
NeoRainier
508 posts
Joined April 2010
NeoRainier

Drafura wrote:

The delicate point here is to determine what is a pixel jump any ideas ?
I'm really in a doubt about this...it's number 1 or 2?

1

2
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
None of them. My idea of a pixel jump is:

O - - - - O - - - - O

A jump from the far left to the far right (or the other way around) with a non-hyperdashed fruit in the middle.

About the difficulty settings:
- Insane: AR9.
- Hard: AR8, 7 is too slow IMO.
- Normal/Easy: Dunno really if that kind of difficulties can be CTB specific. Nevertheless, Taiko has its Fuutsu and Kantan, so everything is possible :p

OD will depend on how hard is the diff or not, with a reasonable HP drain. CS should be set to a medium-big size (I think it's CS2).

CTB diffs will be named Insane, Hard, etc, or will they be named with another concept?

There are still many questions without an answer...
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
About the CtB names:
Well i think we should make clear with the diff name that it is CtB like in Taiko with Oni, Muzukashii und Futsuu.
well i am not very creative with this but we could call them
[CtB] Easy, [CtB] Hard,[CtB] Insane?
or
Fruit Salad,Fruit bowl, Fruit buffet (ok that is very weak xD)

and pixel jumps:
I would go with NeoRainier second picture but i would say you can't really see it there, it seems simple still.

I would say pixel jumps are fruits where you have literally no time to react. Like a hyper dash without hyper dash or so.
Like I said earlier i play through my beatmaps and look for that.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I describe hyperjumps as jumps that are doable without hyperdash but need a placement accurate to a few osu!pixels. These usually become hyperdashes with HR or DT iirc.
They're annoying to play and retardedly hard.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
I also didn't found anything about breaks in the guidelines yet.
Should CtB have breaks like in standard mode?, or no breaks like in Taiko?
I would say no breaks because CtB isn't really exhausting . What do you think?

to the pixel jumps:
I agree with Odaril about them. I would say that they are also hyperdashes with HT.
Last edited by bomber34 , edited 1 time in total.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

Odaril wrote:

I describe hyperjumps as jumps that are doable without hyperdash but need a placement accurate to a few osu!pixels. These usually become hyperdashes with HR or DT iirc.
They're annoying to play and retardedly hard.
I have likely the same definition about really hard jumps but i have to rectify something.

HR makes appear Hyperdashes. <- that's those 'none' jumps i feel hard but they are really not so hard with a very good timing. Maybe it can became the maximum jump we can find in a CtB Diff. With these kind of jumps if we got a hard pattern just before it just become crazy to hit each plays.

DT makes disappear hyperdashes and make hyperdashes (those which still in the map) really really hard to catch. It's the opposite. I think most of hyperdashes cancelled by DT are doable but i'm not sure since i'm not a pro in double time i still sometimes catch somes on some low bpm maps wich requires less timing precision.

For the diff name why don't go for the typical guest diff standard wich is (or as to be) <mapper>'s CTB <diff>.

About breaks... I don't see them as a bad thing... this could be likely the same guideline as in standard : no more than 15-20 sec.

I bump my idea of making rules about spacing for hyperdash (in order to make them more readable) and the volume of HS = mute forbidden.
Zelos
1,111 posts
Joined May 2010
Topic Starter
Zelos
Concerning breaks, I believe that should be the same with standard.

Also what should I be updating here in the OP?
(Preferably stuff that was brought to consensus)
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
For now, nothing I guess. We need to reach an agreement about pixel jumps.
For breaks, same rules as standard sounds fine.
ZHSteven
osu! Alumni
665 posts
Joined July 2009
ZHSteven
Finally, good to see we still have BAT care about this problem.
Thanks Odaril. I hope we can discuss and finally get a good guideline for CTB map being rankable.

Odaril wrote:

I read the guidelines, and I'd make most rules, actually. They're quite good too, I really like them.

However, I'd rather advice AR9 and OD8 for Insane difficulties, AR7 and OD7 for Hard difficulties. (assuming there will be any Hard CtB diff). AR8 isn't easy to read and I get confused a whole lot, while AR9 is readable (after some practice because it's kinda fast lol)
I think AR7 in CTB for normal player(I mean not pro player) is actually harder.
Because you know, for a hard diff, it should be made for normal player to easily FC.
If everyone is FCing that map, to get a higher rank, +mods is the only choice.
Ok then come to the problem. So far as I know, for an AR 7 map in CTB with hidden mod, it is actually harder than AR8. that is mainly because in AR7, the fruit drops slower and makes it harder to grasp the timing of dropped fruit.
plus AR7 hard to add HR(for speed: AR7+HR=AR9.5) and DT(AR9) also, I think AR8 will still fit the so called "hard" CTB map, because it is much easier to add "Hidden" mod.

I wish you all good luck for this, I hope you can bring this to be actual rules and guidelines and we can rank CtB difficulties some day.

Also Pixel jumps should be forbidden altogether.
For the so-called pixel jumps(I would like to call it "bug jump"), I remembered I have done a test in about 1 year ago, but not finished.
This is the test map
I need to finished and gather some data from that map.
Thanks again.

Edit: seems there is no defination of bug jump, so I just give a try for it. hope it will be helpful.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bug jump means you should use one side edge to catch the first fruit and another side edge to catch the second.
Think about this kind of scenario:

A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F

ABCDEF represents the possible place of the plate, and ◎ represents note.

Then lets go to the scenario above. There are two limit jumps in the scenario, to catch the first two, u should be at B point and use the left edge to catch the first, and then hold the dash all the time, and u are just be able to reach C and catch the second one. But you should be at D when u catch the second one as the prerequisites to catch third one, so the third one must be missed if u catch the first two.

here is a possible scenario I made:
SPOILER

referance:http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=39866&p=582441#p582441
Last edited by ZHSteven , edited 4 times in total.
Mercurial
Mercurial
So far as I know, for an AR 7 map in CTB with hidden mod, it is actually harder than AR8. that is mainly because in AR7, the fruit drops slower and makes it harder to grasp the timing of dropped fruit.
plus AR7 hard to add HR(for speed: AR7+HR=AR9.5) and DT(AR9) also, I think AR8 will still fit the so called "hard" CTB map, because it is much easier to add "Hidden" mod.
So true... AR7 is a big problem for non-experienced users 'cause (with or without Hidden) is so annoying catch the fruits meanwhile they fallen SLOOOOOOOOOWLY (Believe me, this is a sh*t problem)

btw, I'm glad to see Odaril here :)

We're in the right way o/
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
I hope this can help to improve/test these guidelines:

CTB difficulties modding assistance

People are beginning to make playable and enjoyful CTB diffs, that's why I decided to make this project.

If anybody's interested in joining at that modding stuff, contact me via PM.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
About the Breaks again:
After playing this CtB diff. i tought that breaks aren't [really] necessary in CtB.
The standard rule/guideline about breaks is to have some of them around a minute or where it is possible because of recovery time for hands/repositioning.
I would say that you don't need breaks in CtB but you can add them where the music doesn't really allow mapping.

I say that because when I play standard converted CtB it is really boring, playing doesn't really strain your hands and or so and you can't do much there D:
This was just a small note to my older post

Btw I think I will start mapping some CtB diffs. soon for your queque Deif :3
I just need to have some time D:
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
I want to add some patterns to the "Rankable Section" that I've seen while modding some CTB maps:

1st: Stacked Sliders:



By Steven. I'm ok with their use, only if the end of a slider and the beginning of the next one are perfectly stacked (Distance Snap = 0).


2nd: Hold-Sliders:



By CLSW. Sliders with many 1/8 repetitions, used instead of regular sliders.


3rd: Hold-Stream:



By CLSW. 1/8 streams, similar idea to Hold-Sliders. The only difference between them is the shape of the "slider":

Hold-Slider
Hold-Stream
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Bump. Huge overhaul of the ctb guidelines.
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