3/4 sliders usually sound okay with tick 2, seeing as the ticks all line up to the 1/2 beat, just as if it were a 3/2 slider.
2/3 sliders are where this comes in handy.
2/3 sliders are where this comes in handy.
Sounds like whenever these particular rhythms are encountered in the future there is always a formula for mapping them.mm201 wrote:
3/4 sliders usually sound okay with tick 2, seeing as the ticks all line up to the 1/2 beat, just as if it were a 3/2 slider.
2/3 sliders are where this comes in handy.
How is this different from silenced ticks? (Which I approve of)I thought silenced ticks were unrankable...
Yes I can. Read:>.< Not really, what if there's no emphasis on a certain "beat", but you still need a hold feeling? In that case a tick would be way out of place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_%28music%29
If the music has a beat, it makes sense for a tick to land on it.
The seldom category is important because it's representative of what actually makes sense. I would place myself in the seldom category. In a perfect world, ticks are read seldomly because the map offers enough other cues to make them irrelevant.No, in a perfect world, every speed change is read with no regard to ticks because the speed change fits the song well, so ticks would never need to be used.
This is exactly why I wrote those 3 rules limiting how speed changes can be used. I wrote them before tick 0.5 was banned in the hopes of targeting specifically unreadable sliders, which appear very frequently in tick 0.5 maps for some reason.The problem with your rules is that they were way too strict and prevented too much, especially cases where the only cues were the feeling of the song and map (which is what speed changes should always fit, IMO at least). It seems you and others on staff consider those cases "unreadable", when actually they are very readable and play really well.
No it wasn't. Tick rate 2 was added based on how sliders are used in Ouendan, which is the reference for this game's design. In Ouendan, ticks are timed according to the fastest consistent rhythm found in the music--that is, the highest possible setting which doesn't clash. This provides the most accurate judgement of sliders and carries the rhythm.Oh. Now that you mention it, I claim that some songs do not even carry a 1/1 rhythm at some points, hence why tick rate 0.5 would work in those parts even by your definition. Saying that a song has something at every 1/1 tick, or 1/2 tick, is a very strong statement to make.
3. The music has lots of offbeats and syncopation. If this is the case, tick 2 is probably a better choice. If tick 2 clashes with the rhythms, try placing sliders more carefully, or otherwise learn to accept syncoticks. They're not so bad and can sound cute.If a tick clashes with the rhythm, it shouldn't be there. Also, the last sentence is the opposite of your 1 and 2, or someone liking the tick sound, so shouldn't that be banned under your reasoning?
4. The map has some very long sliders which begin on offbeats. This tends to flow poorly anyway. Try beginning the slider on the following downbeat and placing a circle on that offbeat.What if the song has that rhythm? I have a map myself where this is the case and tick rate 0.5 sounded better than anything.
That means there's no rhythm, so that moment is unmappable. Consider using a spinner, a break, or just a pause with the object placement.pieguy1372 wrote:
>.< Not really, what if there's no emphasis on a certain "beat", but you still need a hold feeling? In that case a tick would be way out of place.
That's basically what I said, only I'm more open to the possibility of patterns which aren't necessarily readable given the music, but still make sense in retrospect. These situations depend on tick reading or memorization, but shouldn't necessarily be outright banned.pieguy1372 wrote:
No, in a perfect world, every speed change is read with no regard to ticks because the speed change fits the song well, so ticks would never need to be used.
If you'll read them carefully, they don't really ban much of anything. One of the options is if it follows a change in the musical texture, which includes everything of what you said.pieguy1372 wrote:
The problem with your rules is that they were way too strict and prevented too much, especially cases where the only cues were the feeling of the song and map (which is what speed changes should always fit, IMO at least). It seems you and others on staff consider those cases "unreadable", when actually they are very readable and play really well.
Stating a song has a steady 1/2 rhythm is a bold statement to make. Some songs divide into thirds, others don't divide at all. Stating that a song has a steady 1/1 rhythm is a basic concept of music theory. If your song doesn't have a 1/1 rhythm to it, but only a 2/1 rhythm (which corresponds to tick 0.5) then your BPM is double what it should be. Divide your BPM by two, double your slider speed, and enjoy your "tick 0.5" that way.pieguy1372 wrote:
Oh. Now that you mention it, I claim that some songs do not even carry a 1/1 rhythm at some points, hence why tick rate 0.5 would work in those parts even by your definition. Saying that a song has something at every 1/1 tick, or 1/2 tick, is a very strong statement to make.
Most if not all songs have exceptions. What matters is that the 1/2 rhythm is stable.pieguy1372 wrote:
If a tick clashes with the rhythm, it shouldn't be there. Also, the last sentence is the opposite of your 1 and 2, or someone liking the tick sound, so shouldn't that be banned under your reasoning?
pieguy1372 wrote:
What if the song has that rhythm? I have a map myself where this is the case and tick rate 0.5 sounded better than anything.
That means there's no rhythm, so that moment is unmappable. Consider using a spinner, a break, or just a pause with the object placement.
Stating a song has a steady 1/2 rhythm is a bold statement to make. Some songs divide into thirds, others don't divide at all. Stating that a song has a steady 1/1 rhythm is a basic concept of music theory. If your song doesn't have a 1/1 rhythm to it, but only a 2/1 rhythm (which corresponds to tick 0.5) then your BPM is double what it should be. Divide your BPM by two, double your slider speed, and enjoy your "tick 0.5" that way.I'm not sure exactly what songs you're considering, but there is a whole gray area in between having a lot of emphasis on a beat and having nothing there. Having no emphasis on a beat doesn't mean there's nothing there, there might be a slow vocal there, a sound coming from 1/1 or 1/2 before with no added emphasis, just a really slow, weak sound, or many other things. Tick rate 1 is too busy for those, but those parts would be mappable. Plus, having no emphasis on a beat doesn't mean that the rest of the song doesn't follow a 1/1, it means that one part in the song doesn't, so the faster BPM is still the right BPM.
That's basically what I said, only I'm more open to the possibility of patterns which aren't necessarily readable given the music, but still make sense in retrospect. These situations depend on tick reading or memorization, but shouldn't necessarily be outright banned.It's not good practice IMO to force ticks just to "ensure" that everything is readable. Just because some maps would need ticks for speed changes doesn't mean that they should be forced on all the other maps, especially when it doesn't fit
Most if not all songs have exceptions. What matters is that the 1/2 rhythm is stable.if tick 2 clashes, it sounds really bad because it's too busy and has ticks that fit to nothing. If tick 1 is used with a 3/2 slider and the tick it puts is out of place, then this is one case I mentioned where tick rate 0.5 sounds way better. If tick rate 1 puts an out of place tick, tick rate 2 will sound even worse because the whole rhythm it creates doesn't fit. >.<
Edit: I think you misunderstood. Allow me to rephrase that one:
If tick 2 clashes, so you opt for tick 1, you may experience "syncoticks" on sliders that begin on 1/2s. This is usually a sign that tick 2 is correct, but if it isn't, try to place objects more carefully. Tick 0.5 has syncoticks too! It even has them with sliders beginning on 1/1 offbeats, which almost always sounds awful. See my screenshot below.
Please link me that map and I will look into a better solution.sorry, I misunderstood what you said, so it doesn't fit your example. However, my map had a slider that started on a 1/4 and lasted 5/4 so tick rate 1 put an out of place tick (though looking back on that, I think a 3/4 slider and another beat might have been better)
Finally, you cannot silence both slider ticks and slider slides together.However, that's a whole new issue that I'd rather not discuss here)
What if I don't think it sounds nice? Man, this is so subjectiveLuna wrote:
pieguy, even if the music doesn't specifically ephasize every whole beat, tick 1 will still always hit rythm and basically always sound nice.
Then you silence the ticks. They still make musical sense, if you just dislike the tick hitsound that's no reason to remove ticks altogether.Natteke wrote:
What if I don't think it sounds nice? Man, this is so subjectiveLuna wrote:
pieguy, even if the music doesn't specifically ephasize every whole beat, tick 1 will still always hit rythm and basically always sound nice.
Some people say that is unrankable.Luna wrote:
Then you silence the ticks. They still make musical sense, if you just dislike the tick hitsound that's no reason to remove ticks altogether.Natteke wrote:
What if I don't think it sounds nice? Man, this is so subjective
pieguy1372, please be honest: Do you just not like ticks at all?I'm fine with ticks, but I think they're misused most of the time. I made this thread because I figured that the community would be for keeping it so that it could be useful in some cases, and if you consider only normal users it's 5 for, 3 against currently (and I'm quite sure many more would find it to be useful, as well)
If the map dominantly follows 1/1 patterns, tick 1 has to make sense because ticks are weaker elements than circles.If there is a part that does not follow 1/1, and is slower and softer than the rest of the song, it will seem out of place in that part.
Add an example here: imagine you're mapping a Easy/Normal for Evans, what would you do for the 3/4 part?pieguy1372 wrote:
If the map dominantly follows 1/1 patterns, tick 1 has to make sense because ticks are weaker elements than circles.If there is a part that does not follow 1/1, and is slower and softer than the rest of the song, it will seem out of place in that part.
NatsumeRin wrote:
Add an example here: imagine you're mapping a Easy/Normal for Evans, what would you do for the 3/4 part?
That's what i would doSakura Hana wrote:
Enphasis on "make sense" for isntance i once was making a mapset in which i required the use of 3/4 triplets, since the music holds and enphasizes those 3/4 triplets a slider would work out nicely, however, since for the most part the most constant instrument was going at 1/2 rythm i was using slider tick rate 2, and the 3/4 sliders had a repeat for the triplet, so it would create a tick very close to the repeat as soon as it reached 1/2, to counter this i silenced ONLY those ticks on those sliders so it wouldn't sound awkward.
So yes i do agree with silencing sliderticks as long as they make sense with the song, if they indeed do clash with the way the slider in question is mapped.
Read up. It's not.Blue Dragon wrote:
Some people say that is unrankable.
Please explain. I have yet to see a map with its tick rate set too high. These almost always get modded and fixed. (For some reason, the reverse isn't true nearly as often.)pieguy1372 wrote:
I'm fine with ticks, but I think they're misused most of the time.
Not everyone views this thread. Your tendency to reject MAT/BAT in your counting is worrying, since they are the players which the community has identified as the most capable modders/mappers with the highest standards.pieguy1372 wrote:
and if you consider only normal users it's 5 for, 3 against currently (and I'm quite sure many more would find it to be useful, as well)
If there is a part that does not follow 1/1, the BPM is wrong. Following a beat is an elementary musical concept which every song has to follow.pieguy1372 wrote:
If there is a part that does not follow 1/1, and is slower and softer than the rest of the song, it will seem out of place in that part.
Then stop talking about it in here?? Create a thread if you must.pieguy1372 wrote:
Apparently you can silence ticks as long as the rest of the slider isn't silenced, but as I said I would rather not discuss this here = =//
Tick rate being a property of the music, not the map difficulty, you would continue using the tick rate you used on Hard and Expert.NatsumeRin wrote:
Add an example here: imagine you're mapping a Easy/Normal for Evans, what would you do for the 3/4 part?
This. Often the reason the ticks clash for one specific part is because you didn't halve the BPM for that part when the music supports it. In other words, if the percussion suddenly has a beat on every other white tick instead of every white tick, then you need to halve the BPM for that specific part so the tick rate's correct for that part (remember to also add an inherited timing section to set the right slider velocity!).mm201 wrote:
If there is a part that does not follow 1/1, the BPM is wrong. Following a beat is an elementary musical concept which every song has to follow.
Please explain. I have yet to see a map with its tick rate set too high. These almost always get modded and fixed. (For some reason, the reverse isn't true nearly as often.)Often, I see maps with tick rate 2 where IMO it doesn't fit (in fact, I've only seen one map where tick rate 2 was used well IMO). However, that's a different subject entirely, and it's just my opinion...
Not everyone views this thread. Your tendency to reject MAT/BAT in your counting is worrying, since they are the players which the community has identified as the most capable modders/mappers with the highest standards.MAT/BATs are more likely to view this thread, and we already know that most of them supported removing it, the idea here is to focus on the community's opinions
If there is a part that does not follow 1/1, the BPM is wrong. Following a beat is an elementary musical concept which every song has to follow.So if there's a song that quite obviously has the right BPM, but it has 4 beats with a pause or a whole section that has a slower pace or feeling? Changing the BPM for that really isn't correct...
Tick rate being a property of the music, not the map difficulty, you would continue using the tick rate you used on Hard and Expert.It really is not a property of just the music... the feeling of the map is also important, having too many ticks can create too much of a fast feeling in easy/normal diffs >.>
My guess is that a lot of people share the same opinion I have - that is, ambivalence. I'm slightly against it personally, not because I think there's very much application to it, but because I think it's silly to remove a feature that's already in and isn't broken. (You can get tick rate 8 via osuhax, why not remove that too while you're at it?) It's not much of an opinion though, I could care less if it was removed.pieguy1372 wrote:
Also, I'm quite sure there are a lot of people who support tick rate 0.5 (and/or 0), who haven't viewed this thread.
ok then, based on this assumption, let's use tick 1 for all diffs and find what happens.mm201 wrote:
Tick rate being a property of the music, not the map difficulty, you would continue using the tick rate you used on Hard and Expert.NatsumeRin wrote:
Add an example here: imagine you're mapping a Easy/Normal for Evans, what would you do for the 3/4 part?
serious?RandomJibberish wrote:
In that example the ticks will still land on 1/1s and not sound too bad
You're overmapping now.RandomJibberish wrote:
In that example the ticks will still land on 1/1s and not sound too bad.
This is what leads me to believe you (and tick 0.5 users, more generally) just plain don't like ticks. I've found tick rate 2 is virtually never misused, because the BAT are very good at catching and stopping a too-high tick rate.pieguy1372 wrote:
Often, I see maps with tick rate 2 where IMO it doesn't fit (in fact, I've only seen one map where tick rate 2 was used well IMO). However, that's a different subject entirely, and it's just my opinion...
1. Many of the BAT? glad to hear some names. honestly saying, in the previous tick rate 0.5 thread, i also find many of the BAT disagree of remove tick rate 0.5 (you could say it works as tick rate 0)mm201 wrote:
Simply put, you have a different understanding of how ticks work than myself and many of the BAT. Specifically, you think ticks must represent some prominent musical pattern. They don't.
Specifically, you think ticks must represent some prominent musical pattern. They don't. If there's a prominent musical pattern, you should use a hitcircle or a slider head/rebound. Ticks specifically go in places where there isn't a prominent beat and they work like a metronome, marking out the smallest recurrent musical division.
Sliderticks are "important feedback" just like a metronome is important feedback for a piano player, even if the song they're playing isn't purely 1/1s.This is just making a generalization that is about something that is too specific to be generalized. I don't know about you, but I and many others think that maps should be based on the flow and feeling of the song, which has slow parts, soft parts, pauses, etc... You can't force a constant beat (sound, not unit of time) at every point where a slider is used, the song doesn't always call for it. There might be a pause, a hold, or soft or slow feeling there that makes a constant beat too loud, or too fast. A map shouldn't have a "constant beat" if the song doesn't either. When there's something and it doesn't fit the song, there's something seriously wrong.
If the game was designed to use ticks in the way you want to use them, they wouldn't be used for scoring.That's like saying you should use a beat at every 1/2 for the sake of "keeping a constant metronome" instead of where they fit the song >.>
since many maps will keep on coming out which use ticks in this way, in no small part because it's the way the game was designed.most maps I play do not use ticks in that way, and they play a lot better than maps that do. You can't just say "it's wrong to use ticks in this way" because a lot of people find it better to use ticks in this way.
A general solution for such cases is to leave things there and see what would happen.mm201 wrote:
I don't think it suits any songs. You do.
Because it's useful sometimes, and we would like to show peppy that.mm201 wrote:
Neither of us are peppy, so neither of us can do anything about it. Why not drop this?
the one that divides the beat intuitively.Natteke wrote:
What's a "correct tick rate"?
0.5 have sense too actually.mm201 wrote:
Let's just put it this way. The only BAT whose tick rate choice I've disagreed with was Alace. Possibly Andrea and Card, but that was always 1 vs 2.
Sliderticks are "important feedback" just like a metronome is important feedback for a piano player, even if the song they're playing isn't purely 1/1s.
otherwise you might as well use a red line to halve the bpm, if the main beat isnt really landing on a 1/1 rythm but rather a 2/1 rythm instead.It can't be done, Sakura, it contradict
doubling your bpm already, which is already wronghalving and doubling bpm can't be done by using different red sections, but can be done on all the song
It can, if the BPM really slow down to half you are allowed to use a red line for it, you're only not allowed to alter slider speed with red lines.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
otherwise you might as well use a red line to halve the bpm, if the main beat isnt really landing on a 1/1 rythm but rather a 2/1 rythm instead.It can't be done, Sakura, it contradict
Technically if a BPM is right, all slider ticks should land in the correct spots due to appearing on each 1/1, musically if there's an instrument that makes you start a slider on a red tick, then the music will "probably" be right for the slidertick on a red tick as well, if it's not, then there's 2 possibilities, 1) Either the slider itself doesnt fit with the music (i see people use sliders for everything instead of what their original intention is for >_>) or 2) The slider feels correct, but the tick feels out of place, then you can go ahead and silence that single slider tick so it doesnt sound out of place.1. what's wrong with just having no tick there, if it doesn't fit?
Another situation is when a whole section, doesnt feel right at all, then go ahead and ask yourself if it's because the beats seem to be landing on red ticks and sounding awkward, if that's the case you might need a metronome reset instead of a 0.5 tick rate, or is the song so soft that you cant hear any beats on 1/1? assuming the song is still at that same bpm, the sliderticks will be correct, and of course low volume on sliderticks should accompany them just like the rest of the hitsounds, otherwise you might as well use a red line to halve the bpm, if the main beat isnt really landing on a 1/1 rythm but rather a 2/1 rythm instead.serious? Using a red line to half the BPM even though the rest of the song has the same BPM is not right because it's just one slow part, it's not a whole different section. Using a red line to set a new offset isn't correct because it's just for one section and the song is still following the old offset, and it won't even make a difference because the sliders and thus the ticks will still be placed in the same position.
fwiw i dont see any spot where a 0.5 would fit unless you're actually doubling your bpm already, which is already wrong, and if you dont like the sound of sliderticks, just as mm201 mentioned, play with a skin that silences them, but not enforce it onto players that actually do like it.that's not the problem, and also quit making it seem like we're insane. The problem is that there are some cases where even using tick rate 1 is too high.
It can, if the BPM really slow down to half you are allowed to use a red line for it, you're only not allowed to alter slider speed with red lines.well then, why are "hold sliders" banned? Technically there's a very slow pace in a part where they are used, so won't a 0.5x bpm + a 0.5x inherited section (or even a 0.25x bpm) fit?