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Copy-paste: Your thoughts?

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143
kingcobra52
osu! Alumni
974 posts
Joined May 2008
Topic Starter
kingcobra52
A lot of mappers (including myself) use copy/paste frequently in order to map faster. I'm curious about what people think about it in general from both the mapper's and player's perspective.

For mappers:

-Do you use copy/paste in your maps? How often? Do you leave it as it is or change it around? (flip horizontal/vertical, move sliders/notes, etc.)

For players:

-When you run into a copy/paste from before, what are you thinking at that point? Are you glad because the map's more predictable, or are you shaming the mapper for being lazy?

-What's your general opinion of copy-pasting? Is flipping horizontal/vertical enough to "change-up" a pattern from before and keep it interesting?

Let me know what you guys think.
Kytoxid
osu! Alumni
1,369 posts
Joined April 2009
Kytoxid
As both a mapper and a player, I found it good as long as it's not in excess, and the music merits the use of the same pattern again. Generally I try to avoid doing it more than once for one pattern though (so one pattern shows up only twice), because any more and it feels boring. I usually do a hofizontal flip or a 180 degree rotation.

In short: I don't think it should be done for the sole purpose of speeding up the mapping process, but it can be a good thing if used effectively.
aRiskOfRain
osu! Alumni
1,367 posts
Joined June 2009
aRiskOfRain
I think a nice piece of copy paste is awesome, even in the hardest map of a song. To play, they are a treat. I love them, so I probably tend to do it too much when I map.

I sometimes change it for the very last verse.
blissfulyoshi
osu! Alumni
4,755 posts
Joined July 2008
blissfulyoshi
For me both as a mapper and a player, I feel that copy and pasting is a very boring technique unless it is used for a reflection for a jump. (Jumps look a lot nicer and are easier to read if they are notes reflected across axis)

Seeing the same or similar patterns annoy me. If used, the map usually becomes predictable and repetitious. When making my own maps, I try to make sure each repeat of similar note patterns is drastically changed from the last occurrence (sadly, this does not always happen).
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
Copy-pasting minor art sliders (e.g. a wave slider)? Sure.

For everything else, it depends. In most cases, the music has to sound almost exactly the same for it to be justified. Most of the time, copy-pasted parts need to be close together on the timeline and in position without modification, or they need to be rotated much or flipped. Not sure if I made that clear, but hey...

Three pastes (and one of the source, making four repeated patterns) is my general limit. One paste is good for a section close on the timeline.

One good use of copy-pasta IMO was in Date of Rebirth. There were six identical sections in the song, grouped in two's. I mapped three different patterns for the first three, and copy-pasted them into the last three. Each pairing was unique, and the repeated patterns were flipped and adjusted so they flowed better with the other pattern in the pair.

Another perspective of copy-pasta: copy-pasting patterns, but changing spacing and the type of notes. The absolute best example one could ask for is Unity at 00:35:482 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3). foul's use of this pseudo-copy-pasta makes a somewhat confusing timing pattern so intuitive because you learn as you play.

Bleh.

I have no grudge against mappers who use copy-pasta except in the case where either (1) it makes the map sound weird (ahem) or (2) it just plays poorly. I'm too tired to come up with examples of good and bad "real" copy-pasta at the moment.
An64fan
osu! Alumni
864 posts
Joined September 2008
An64fan
As a mapper, I never c/p except when lining stuff up in a particular way (this is usually jumps). I never c/p otherwise.

As for others using c/p, I have no problem as long as it's only bits and pieces of the map. Otherwise, it becomes boring in a hurry.
minyeob
osu! Alumni
2,540 posts
Joined May 2008
minyeob
As a mapper: I never use copy/paste.

As a player: I'm shaming the mapper and filp thing is not enough to change patterns. *ex) Ouendan/EBA maps lol
MegaManEXE
710 posts
Here since the beginning
MegaManEXE
I use it for symmetrical purposes, but I try not to take, for example, the entire chorus and copy and paste it over and over each time.

I tend to C&P rhythms a lot but I make sure I arrange them differently to try to keep it somewhat fresh and new.
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
I usually make the choruses all the same if the music is identical, with the second a 180 rotation and the third a horizontal flip on the first. I sometimes make the last chorus different though.
Lesjuh
Elite Mapper
2,442 posts
Joined October 2008
Lesjuh
erpderp http://osu.ppy.sh/b/43589
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
As a mapper, I have to admit laziness has sometimes been the problem... but I generally try not to copy paste even if the sections are identical. The only reason I would do so is if I'm trying to do Oibon Jumps or for symmetry purposes.

As a player, they're fine. In fact they're easier to read.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
Mapper POV: usually when i map and make a copy-paste i also try to change something more, instead of only flipping. Anyway, this happens only when i get two identical sections in the song. I just like it more this way.

Player POV: as long as the copy-paste is not so highly used, i barely notice it at all. If i do i usually don't care if it fits the map well.

In other words, copy-paste is not so bad, in my opinion it's even better to use it sometimes, it keeps the map more consistent.
rust45
1,088 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45
As a mapper, I use copy pasta at the chorus of the song, but I only use this to so I don't have to place notes again, usually the pattern varies greatly from what I copied. Although my exception to this is when I'm making a nice symmetrical pattern.

As a player, I think copy paste can be good and fun, reminds me a lot of EBA maps and a lot of the times the patterns are done so well they don't get boring the third time around. And to me, maps that feel like that are needed more than the "OMG RAPE IN THE FACE" maps, fun, without excessive amounts of challenge.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku
For a map with two choruses, I think that having the second chorus be a copy-paste of the first (with horiz and/or vert flipping) is fine. Though, SOME differences are always nice. For the meltdown diff I did, I copy pasted for the second chorus, but moved a bunch of the notes and sliders around so that they went in different directions and angles. So, it gave a similar "feel" but also a newer one. :3

For three choruses, I'd make the first two about the same, but something completely different for the third. :3
CheeseWarlock
osu! Alumni
1,185 posts
Joined May 2008
CheeseWarlock
I think repetition is one of the most overlooked aspects of a map. And not just copy-pasting with the occasional flip; use different patterns but with some amount of consistency in the appearance, the timing of the notes, even the hitsounds! If the music repeats, the mapping should reflect that. I've seen maps that made excellent use of these concepts without a single copy-paste, and other maps that had sections repeating 4+ times that were just as great. Too much repetition can be a problem, sure, but it's not one I see very often.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

CheeseWarlock wrote:

I think repetition is one of the most overlooked aspects of a map. And not just copy-pasting with the occasional flip; use different patterns but with some amount of consistency in the appearance, the timing of the notes, even the hitsounds! If the music repeats, the mapping should reflect that. I've seen maps that made excellent use of these concepts without a single copy-paste, and other maps that had sections repeating 4+ times that were just as great. Too much repetition can be a problem, sure, but it's not one I see very often.
I just realized Lemon Tree fits well to that. =] (Good job, MM.)
nomedeusuarionaodisp
161 posts
Joined September 2008
nomedeusuarionaodisp
Same answer as usual: as long as it fits the map, I don't mind. They also fit well in refrains.

On my beginning days of osu! I didn't like them much (as you can see on that awful thing I have in my Graveyard), but... even though I haven't really gotten much better (and now that I finally sort of played OTO2 - oh god why don't I have a DS already), I can see where they might or not be useful or fun.
...I guess.
Aoitenshi
711 posts
Joined February 2009
Aoitenshi
I am an original type person, so even on 3 minutes song, I forced myself to make them all original, unless I will need Oibon jump.
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Nakata Yuji
471 posts
Joined April 2009
Nakata Yuji
I personally copy and paste to avoid having to make hitsounds, as well as the advantage of having the notes already placed. I generally move them around after through to make it different.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
for both as long as it is good with the music and a bit moved around i do not have a problem. it just dont have to go too long so it get boring
Gens
osu! Alumni
3,485 posts
Joined August 2008
Gens
I probably overuse copy-paste all the time, but I feel that creating new patterns everytime without copypasting would be messy. Obviously I don't copy-paste if it doesn't fit the music.
DJPop
osu! Alumni
3,549 posts
Here since the beginning
DJPop
As a mapper:
Copy/paste to build the same rhythm easier, then rearrange the notes.

As a player:
My opinion, only do copy/paste and flip H/V is too lazy. At least should be arranged in different patterns.

As a modder:
Everybody use copy/paste, don't they? :P
Lesjuh
Elite Mapper
2,442 posts
Joined October 2008
Lesjuh
Copy/Paste is my friend <3
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
When done right, copypaste gives me that warm fuzzy feeling of seeing a familiar pattern. If the actual mapping is done well, it doesn't get boring. Just be careful that the music you're pasting into actually matches with where you took the pattern from.

Copypaste is also the fundamental tool used for creating left-right symmetry patterns, which are always awesome. (Example: "I wonder how, I wonder why" on Lemon Tree)

For verses which follow the same basic structure but with rhythmic differences, copying & pasting, then altering much of everything to match the new rhythm is a good way to ensure consistency of feel while still ending up with something substantially different.

strager wrote:

I just realized Lemon Tree fits well to that. =] (Good job, MM.)
I actually used just one copypaste--the second chorus--and part of it was flipped.

And I got trolled for that in the comments. .__.

Easier difficulties used more but followed my third paragraph here.
YGOkid8
osu! Alumni
2,729 posts
Joined February 2009
YGOkid8
I'm with Diamond Crash. With a song with eg. 3 choruses, the 1st two are just copy pasted. The 3rd one more original.
But also, if there are two sections of music adjacent to each other, I use copy paste, just to feel... i dunno.

As a player, I don't mind, as long as it isn't TOO frequent... unless it's authentic, which isn't TOO bad, but still very repetitive *089m cough*
rust45
1,088 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45

YGOkid8 wrote:

I'm with Diamond Crash. With a song with eg. 3 choruses, the 1st two are just copy pasted. The 3rd one more original.
But also, if there are two sections of music adjacent to each other, I use copy paste, just to feel... i dunno.
Actually, I like when it's like Survivor more where the 1st and 2nd chorus and different from each other and the 3rd chorus is a combination of the two. Course this can only work with some songs.
m980
Elite Mapper
1,234 posts
Here since the beginning
m980

rust45 wrote:

YGOkid8 wrote:

I'm with Diamond Crash. With a song with eg. 3 choruses, the 1st two are just copy pasted. The 3rd one more original.
But also, if there are two sections of music adjacent to each other, I use copy paste, just to feel... i dunno.
Actually, I like when it's like Survivor more where the 1st and 2nd chorus and different from each other and the 3rd chorus is a combination of the two. Course this can only work with some songs.
Ding ding ding!
YGOkid8
osu! Alumni
2,729 posts
Joined February 2009
YGOkid8

rust45 wrote:

Actually, I like when it's like Survivor more where the 1st and 2nd chorus and different from each other and the 3rd chorus is a combination of the two. Course this can only work with some songs.
That's kinda like the Hard diff for my Currently in WiP map. Has 4 choruses, 1st 3 are all different, last one is combination of the other 3. That way, it has a slightly familiar feel to it but not too much... hopefully.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
As a player, I found out copy/pasted notes plays ok to me atlease there position and angle has changed. Copy/paste was used by iNiS very often and they are really entertaining you know

As a mapper, I honestly don't know how to make a good use of copy/paste.... I guess I'm just not skilled enough to do that kind of stuff

I do agree that it is a worse thing it can be done if it not used preperly
YellowerYoshi
197 posts
Joined March 2009
YellowerYoshi
I hardly ever use copy/paste as a mapper in terms of sections of a song repeated. If I'm doing some kind of repeating pattern within the same section though, I'll just it mostly for timing and then re-adjust positioning and spacing. If I'm mapping a song that repeats a section again later, I usually find it in better taste to try and come up with something a bit different there. It just feels lazy doing otherwise to me.

When I run into it while playing, the first thought to come to mind is "Oh gee... this isn't new. I've already done this... blah." I just feel like it makes for a more fun map if it doesn't repeat itself.
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
pieguyn
I feel it works well in some cases but not in others. One case where it does work well is if you have a long song with two separate, repeating parts in it that sound almost exactly alike, though it tends to get kind of repetitive after one copy-paste, and it's far better if it's flipped or altered in some way. Another case where I find it works well is if you're copy-pasting a small pattern so it's right after the original one, which works when the song repeats the same rhythm twice back-to-back. It doesn't work well when it's used too much or where the song sounds different, though.

When I'm playing, what I think depends on which case it is and whether it works well. If it works well, I'm happy and finds it adds coherence to the beatmap, whereas if it doesn't I don't really like it that much.
Umandsf
34 posts
Joined December 2009
Umandsf
Actually, I was just working on my first beatmap this morning, and I employed this. It was because the song had a repeating section that was almost identical (save the latter part), so it would make sense to have something a little similar. (Also, I was working on the normal difficulty, so I may not do it for the harder ones). I was originally going to do the full length of the song but decided to do the short version. Otherwise, my lack of creativity would have surely called for excessive copy-paste. It's not bad as long as you don't do it excessively or at least change it up a bit.
Colin Hou
osu! Alumni
4,456 posts
Joined November 2009
Colin Hou
I usually copy one slider for the same shape.

Section-copying is boring so I tried my best to prevent it.
Lilac
Elite Mapper
1,515 posts
Joined December 2008
Lilac
You really shouldn't have any reason to copy & paste because it just shows how uncreative you are and it just looks ugly and recognizable. This doesn't apply to all maps, but to the vast majority.

Though you should be able, as a mapper, to judge yourself whether copy and pasting is good in a certain situation.
m980
Elite Mapper
1,234 posts
Here since the beginning
m980

MarioBros777 wrote:

You really shouldn't have any reason to copy & paste because it just shows how uncreative you are and it just looks ugly and recognizable. This doesn't apply to all maps, but to the vast majority.

Though you should be able, as a mapper, to judge yourself whether copy and pasting is good in a certain situation.
MB makes m980 sad
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
I copy paste all hit circles because I'm too lazy to hit 2.
Lesjuh
Elite Mapper
2,442 posts
Joined October 2008
Lesjuh
CopyPaste + HorizontalFlip = Problem Solved.
YGOkid8
osu! Alumni
2,729 posts
Joined February 2009
YGOkid8

m980 wrote:

MarioBros777 wrote:

You really shouldn't have any reason to copy & paste because it just shows how uncreative you are and it just looks ugly and recognizable. This doesn't apply to all maps, but to the vast majority.

Though you should be able, as a mapper, to judge yourself whether copy and pasting is good in a certain situation.
MB makes m980 sad
He did say "the vast majority". m980 isn't counted in the vast majority
Arusha Shuna
1,793 posts
Joined August 2009
Arusha Shuna
use it to end the song quickly, but i end up use horizontal flip then vertical flip
Doomsday
Featured Artist
1,961 posts
Joined July 2008
Doomsday
Perhaps I might copy/paste a small pattern for symmetry, and I used to do the dreaded "copy/paste the chorus" thing, but I don't do that nowadays, and I never recommend that.
Mashley
2,042 posts
Joined September 2008
Mashley
You CAN'T judge mapping elements like copypasta on an overall basis. It's completely case specific.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o

Agent Spin Here wrote:

You CAN'T judge mapping elements like copypasta on an overall basis. It's completely case specific.
Pretty much agreed. The effectiveness of copypasting is largely dependent on the song/mapping style.
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
Strongly pattern and symmetry based mapping works best with copy paste as it's nice to see the patterns appearing again giving a sense of consistency. Less pattern based mapping doesn't have that benefit so much.

I have nothing against copy paste either way though, and use it quite a lot myself.
Lilac
Elite Mapper
1,515 posts
Joined December 2008
Lilac

m980 wrote:

MarioBros777 wrote:

You really shouldn't have any reason to copy & paste because it just shows how uncreative you are and it just looks ugly and recognizable. This doesn't apply to all maps, but to the vast majority.

Though you should be able, as a mapper, to judge yourself whether copy and pasting is good in a certain situation.
MB makes m980 sad
I made you sad with Believe. :(
Beuchi
osu! Alumni
2,288 posts
Joined February 2009
Beuchi

0_o wrote:

Agent Spin Here wrote:

You CAN'T judge mapping elements like copypasta on an overall basis. It's completely case specific.
Pretty much agreed. The effectiveness of copypasting is largely dependent on the song/mapping style.
*cough* =x

Well, I use to copy/paste a lot on my maps, but everytime for the sake of symmetry, making slight variations on the pattern only if the music changes on that point. And yeah, I usually copy-paste the chorus and change it at the third chorus, but choruses are /always/ the same as the first one so I guess it doesn't matter so much xD

As a player I like copypaste, unless it's the same exact pattern repeating over and over again along the map, that makes it boring :/
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
Bad C&P hurts a map.

On the other hand, excellent C&P gives a map structure, fun, and puts it way ahead of the pack. Ex. Nijiiro [Hard] (a Pending map :P)

That's all there is to it, really. It also depends on the difficulty, but meh.
Rokodo
1,104 posts
Joined August 2008
Rokodo
Speaking from the POV of a taiko mapper, I frequently copy paste as you tend to repeat a pattern 4 times or so. And of course, during kiai sections of a song I may wish to repeat the same notes.
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp
"When it is done well, it is good. When it is done poorly, it is bad."
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc
Ive been experimenting with it lately.
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