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[added] Show the very first approach circle in Hidden-Mode

posted
Total Posts
76
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +43
Ataman
10 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Ataman
Hi there,

While playing hidden I often stumble across beatmaps that use a note on the first tone. I think this is perfectly fine but it is a bit annoying in hidden mode since you don't have any clue when you should hit the first note. You see that note on the start and then you guess since there is no rhythm involved at all.

Thus I would like to suggest showing the approach circle on the first note in hidden-mode, providing some help for hitting that 'quiet' note.

Greetings
Ataman
-Athena-
1,414 posts
Joined June 2011
-Athena-
This reminds me of one map in particular than I tried to rank.. Nana mizuki silent bible lol, nice suggestion
Ataman
10 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Ataman
Kanon Wakeshima - Kajitsu no Keikoku on yami is also a nice example.
Aoko
1,053 posts
Joined June 2011
Aoko
I agree. +1 Support :3
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
The fade-in of the note acts as an approach circle. With enough experience, you'll learn to read this as well as an approach circle. This isn't needed.
JAKACHAN
684 posts
Joined March 2011
JAKACHAN

Odaril wrote:

The fade-in of the note acts as an approach circle. With enough experience, you'll learn to read this as well as an approach circle. This isn't needed.
I agree with this. Not to mention you can tell when the first note is to be hit by the timer circle in the top right of the screen. When that circle finishes emptying that's when the first circle is to be hit.
-Athena-
1,414 posts
Joined June 2011
-Athena-

JAKACHAN wrote:

Odaril wrote:

The fade-in of the note acts as an approach circle. With enough experience, you'll learn to read this as well as an approach circle. This isn't needed.
I agree with this. Not to mention you can tell when the first note is to be hit by the timer circle in the top right of the screen. When that circle finishes emptying that's when the first circle is to be hit.
Well I wouldn't argue with the pros, you just sort of lose your timing and focus after 10 retries in a row though XD
Ataman
10 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Ataman
Of course you don't need it but it would be a small addition without any downsides (Or at least I can't think of one) and for some people it will help. (Non-pros as example).
Nyquill
osu! Alumni
1,781 posts
Joined February 2011
Nyquill
I think this also brings in the question of whether or not maps need to be sight-read fc-able.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro

Nyquill wrote:

I think this also brings in the question of whether or not maps need to be sight-read fc-able.
This does not include mods. Mods are meant to make maps significantly harder, so they can't be taken into account. If HD was, there would be absolutely no stacking allowed at all.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
More like notes need to be stacked because we take into account HD mode, when stacking doesn't happen, stacks are imposible to read in HD without memorization.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
when stacking doesn't happen with HD: fade-out makes it possible to see the circles beneath, follow points for back and forth or crosses and how long it is until the next hitcircle should be hit can all be added into "reading" those stacks.

Just saying. Also yeah, use the fade-out as an approach circle to hit the first note. It's the first note - you can esc-retry it a few times compared to the note at xx:xx time.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Practice.
That's all.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

Sakura Hana wrote:

More like notes need to be stacked because we take into account HD mode, when stacking doesn't happen, stacks are imposible to read in HD without memorization.
semi transparent hitcirlces go
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

MMzz wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

More like notes need to be stacked because we take into account HD mode, when stacking doesn't happen, stacks are imposible to read in HD without memorization.
semi transparent hitcirlces go
I was referring to the stack leniency rule, but i just remembered that there's another reason behind it anyways.
Ataman
10 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Ataman

TheNutritiousGuy wrote:

Practice.
That's all.
There are people who play for fun, not for practice and highscore. Trying to hit silent notes is not fun.
AlphaTiger_old
1 post
Joined August 2012
AlphaTiger_old
I agree too. That's pretty annoying on some beatmaps, especially when trying to score an SS.
And it's not really possible to rely on fading, as on the last beatmap I was playing with Hidden, the fading was occuring something like 2.1 beats before start, and not something exact like 2 beats ...
Archangel Tirael
479 posts
Joined January 2011
Archangel Tirael
I agree, but peppy does't recharge my stars. +1. ;3
[CSGA]Ar3sgice
4,298 posts
Joined July 2011
[CSGA]Ar3sgice
retry.

that's all
Archangel Tirael
479 posts
Joined January 2011
Archangel Tirael
Although such a thing ... would not stir and flashlight mode.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Ataman wrote:

There are people who play for fun, not for practice and highscore. Trying to hit silent notes is not fun.
The Note isn't silenced, or does people map empty parts of songs? The worse thing are Maps with very low Volume Areas.
Ataman
10 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Ataman
Anybody who plays or played an instrument knows how to count the beat before playing.
Problem with osu! at the moment: You can't do that. The entry-point for the first played note is completely unrelated.

Songs with music in advance are fine because you have something to tap to, you'll hit the first note in hidden-mode almost perfectly without hassle.
But silent starters are just awful. No beat, no rythm. Just nothing and you're supposed to click just in time without any relation. That's unnecessary and could be fixed easily.

"Use the timer-circle at the top right!"
"Learn to read the fade-in!"
Using the timer-circle is just... ... Are we really supposed to misuse the song-timer to hit notes? Is this the point of the timer?
Same for fade-in: Do we have to use non-music-related information to play the map? Is this actually intended?

Another solution for those who don't like the approach circle: You could make the BPM somehow visible or even audible at start. The mainscreen is a perfect example for it. Draw a transparent circle on the screen, let it beat to the BPM at start.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I found this same problem a long while ago which is why i once suggested this: t/64765 for mappers, but you can see that the mappers like having circles at the very start of songs with no musical cue beforehand so... that didn't go well...
Skyara
52 posts
Joined January 2011
Skyara
I find this idea really stupid, hidden is a really old mod and it always been like it is, change it now would be unfair. I'm 99% sure this won't happen.

the first note is not that hard to catch, try 2,3 times the map and that's all.
deadbeat
osu! Alumni
9,218 posts
Joined June 2009
deadbeat

Ataman wrote:

There are people who play for fun, not for practice and highscore. Trying to hit silent notes is not fun.
silent notes???
i play without hitsounds with a fully transparent 300.png and i barely ever have trouble with the first note when playing with hidden.
and yes, i also play for fun. so imo, this isn't needed at all
rrtyui
Former osu! Champion: 2014
744 posts
Joined May 2010
rrtyui

[CSGA]Ar3sgice wrote:

retry.

that's all
^yeah Agree to the above


I can not agree this requests. I even the first play, it possible hit in the feeling, it is fact experience. I think this will be a factor lowering the clear level of hidden.
Ataman
10 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Ataman
Yeah, it will lower the difficulty of hidden-mode a lot if the very first note of hundreds remains visible.
Whoa, I'm so stupid, thinking this community could be any more reasonable than others.

I didn't see one single counter-argument till now. Looks like this gets buried again without proper discussion. gj
boat
2,369 posts
Joined February 2010
boat

Ataman wrote:

Yeah, it will lower the difficulty of hidden-mode a lot if the very first note of hundreds remains visible.
Whoa, I'm so stupid, thinking this community could be any more reasonable than others.

I didn't see one single counter-argument till now. Looks like this gets buried again without proper discussion. gj
It needs no discussion. The request is somewhat reasonable, but not at all plausible. Sure, it could make things easier, but that doesn't at all make it necessary and neither viable. Just retry up until you get it right. Its not that big of a deal, and certainly isn't a widespread enough "issue" for such drastic measures. You can't expect something to be made easier simply because its too hard for somebody.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
I could see this being a bit disorienting. Like, it'd be a brief mental switch from nomod to hidden mode. Then I'd probably occasionally get a 100 on the second circle instead of the first. :P

I guess that point considered, things are probably better off the way they are in that regard. At least to me.

Ataman wrote:

Another solution for those who don't like the approach circle: You could make the BPM somehow visible or even audible at start. The mainscreen is a perfect example for it. Draw a transparent circle on the screen, let it beat to the BPM at start.
This is a pretty cool idea. It could be something subtle, even, like a slight lighting effect in the background or something that lasts for a measure before the first circle appears. Basically like the countdown but not as big or loud.
Tenacious J
77 posts
Joined September 2010
Tenacious J
Where is this going?? Having an approach circle to indicate the first sounds like something that would throw me off, especially knowing that circle sizes vary from map to map.

Thinking about it further, metronome or forced countdown would be out of the question. I would instead suggest something that involves the pie-bar or HP bar since they both tell you how much time you have until the beatmap starts, except the HP bar fails to do so when skipping to the start of a song due to long intro. Ideas anyone?
Oblimix
59 posts
Joined December 2011
Oblimix
I think this should be addressed.
I've seen it too often where you literally need to guess when to hit the first node, both from myself and from watching other people.

Some songs start by having complete silence until the first node. Not that that's bad, but even with 100 retries you can still get it wrong a lot.

I feel this kills the song if you have to retry several times before you can finally start.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Learn to play the song before you try it with Hidden. If you can't read the approach rate even at the first circle, then you shouldn't be playing Hidden.
Oblimix
59 posts
Joined December 2011
Oblimix
I can play on hidden just fine after the first circle on songs with a silent start, and even get the first circle after breaks, but this is literally guesswork.

I just watched a stream of a person playing hidden and got SS, while trying to improve his spinners after every retry, but each time he played he had to retry like 10 times because he couldn't get the first circle right.

Why you'd want a rhythm game to have a flaw like that is beyond me...
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
My argument is that the issue is not just with the first circle, but maps can have this problem through the whole map such is the case with most Easy difficulties that are mapped in 2/1. It's not guess work, it's reading the fade work. If one has a problem reading the first circle of a map, that person will fare no better in a slow Easy without double time enabled.

I see it more of a player problem rather than a game problem.


I don't support this idea, but it doesn't really bother me if it were implemented.
Kluddio
865 posts
Joined February 2012
Kluddio
Hidden should be hidden simply lisen to the song and press that first note like a sir ;)
Oblimix
59 posts
Joined December 2011
Oblimix
I don't think you get the point. There is no music until the first circle; there's nothing to listen to. All you get is a sudden flashing node.
Ofcourse only some songs are like that.
Valentiino
1,945 posts
Joined June 2011
Valentiino
Look at the timer. It will indicate when to hit the first circle
Oblimix
59 posts
Joined December 2011
Oblimix
Never mind, I guess I'm the only one who sees how impractical this is.
Bites
185 posts
Joined June 2012
Bites

Valentiino wrote:

Look at the timer. It will indicate when to hit the first circle
Yes, because everyone wants to look at a pie chart in the corner of their screen just to be able to hit the first note with SOME consistency.

I support this feature.
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin
Supporting only for songs with lead-in set.
Tshemmp
1,405 posts
Joined June 2011
Tshemmp
Really guys, learn to play :<
You can read fading circles the same way you can read approach circles.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
i can read when to click the first note in hidden when its the first sound of the song, but it requires some concentration.
basically what tshemmp said
ZeroEightOne
240 posts
Joined August 2011
ZeroEightOne
HD + HR should be fine
Tenacious J
77 posts
Joined September 2010
Tenacious J
I see how problematic the first note can be on hidden but I don't think an approach circle is the way to go. Hidden wouldn't be called hidden. There ought to be a better solution...
jemhuntr
933 posts
Joined February 2012
jemhuntr
support~
nutnnut
11 posts
Joined October 2012
nutnnut
yeah i hate retrying 5 times to get the first hit 300
Aquamarine
222 posts
Joined February 2011
Aquamarine
Support.
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
It would make it look very inconsistent. You should be able to improve your skill to know when to press without any guidelines, in most cases this isn't even needed. Just retry a couple of times.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
Hidden mod is meant to increase difficulty, having the first approach circle visible will reduce it, and a lot in many maps.
If you get mad for getting a 100 in the first note a lot of times while retrying, then keep retrying, play the song without HD at least once to "memorize", or don't use it at all.
I love HD mod as it is now, even for songs without lead-in music, makes it more challenging.
Just asking for something that would make easier a mod that is supposed to be hard an challenging doesn't make sense.
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