[Proposal] Add rules about (Nightcore Mix) & (Speed Up Ver.)

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Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki
We've been using these markers in a standardized way for recently ranked maps such as https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/995098#osu/2081395 and https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/984684#osu/2060305, but there are no rules about it in the RC. To avoid useless discussions and misunderstandings, I think rules about these markers should be added. This doesn't actually change anything, it just makes the unwritten rules official.

It could be something like this:
If a song has been edited to have a higher tempo, use a (Speed Up Ver.) marker at the end of the current title string. If there is an existing 'Speed Up Ver' marker in the title, the (Speed Up Ver.) marker would replace it. For songs of the genres Techno, Trance, Dance, Eurodance, Hands Up, Jumpstyle, Hardstyle and Happy Hardcore, use (Nightcore Mix) instead.
xtrem3x
for some reason that guideline seems contradictory, because there is another one that specifies that any unauthorized audio edition cannot be mapped (if is a remix or a song compilation there is no problem).
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki

xtrem3x wrote:

for some reason that guideline seems contradictory, because there is another one that specifies that any unauthorized audio edition cannot be mapped (if is a remix or a song compilation there is no problem).
What rule/guideline are you talking about? I can't find anything about this in the RC honestly
xenal
I also don't find that guideline in RC, assuming it's a misinterpretation of the edit to reach a drain time treshold rule.

I would agree that standardizing it would be simplier than arguing with other mappers. Wording need adjustement tho.

First, I've never seen "Sped up ver." and doesn't look fine in my eyes either (old site shows only 4 results for it (exluding results which aren't using "sped")). "Speed up ver." is more standardly used. "Sped" may be better grammatically speaking, but "Speed up" is the one used all across the web (like "value of "Speed" as been increased up", not as a actual verb)

Now the difference between Nightcore and Speed up is an issue here. Nightcore genre itself isn't really defined. It's a young style to start with and not a music genre in itself because it's mostly a modification of an other song. A definition cannot be set in stone. Some people will say it's trance and dance music with 160-180bpm and high pitch, including sped up songs, also kinda including happy hardcore, and others will just say it's sped and pitched up music around 10%-30%. Currently, youtube seems to go with the flow and use the second (more popular and agreed on) (Youtube auto nightcore channel). There is no RELIABLE source for a official definition and I think the popular opinion should be used instead of the "origins".

I feel like speed up should be more like "well bpm is so low I can't make a good map, so let me just speed this up in audacity real quick" kinda of stuff, like https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/240256 speed up by 100% (it's actually taken from https://youtu.be/3IJUXFXbros which is labeled as nightcore, but breaks what I said about speed above, in both bpm and %, so yeah... idk anymore), and that nightcore should be used for what can be agreed upon as nightcore
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki

xenal wrote:

First, I've never seen "Sped up ver." and doesn't look fine in my eyes either (old site shows only 4 results for it (exluding results which aren't using "sped")). "Speed up ver." is more standardly used. "Sped" may be better grammatically speaking, but "Speed up" is the one used all across the web (like "value of "Speed" as been increased up", not as a actual verb)
The reason why I went for "Sped" and not "Speed" is that this has been (unofficially) changed a few weeks ago because it seems to be more correct grammatically as you said. Therefore I simply went along with it, however I don't mind whether it's Speed or Sped, either one works in my opinion.

xenal wrote:

Now the difference between Nightcore and Speed up is an issue here. Nightcore genre itself isn't really defined. It's a young style to start with and not a music genre in itself because it's mostly a modification of an other song. A definition cannot be set in stone. Some people will say it's trance and dance music with 160-180bpm and high pitch, including sped up songs, also kinda including happy hardcore, and others will just say it's sped and pitched up music around 10%-30%. Currently, youtube seems to go with the flow and use the second (more popular and agreed on) (Youtube auto nightcore channel). There is no RELIABLE source for a official definition and I think the popular opinion should be used instead of the "origins".

I feel like speed up should be more like "well bpm is so low I can't make a good map, so let me just speed this up in audacity real quick" kinda of stuff, like https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/240256 speed up by 100% (it's actually taken from https://youtu.be/3IJUXFXbros which is labeled as nightcore, but breaks what I said about speed above, in both bpm and %, so yeah... idk anymore), and that nightcore should be used for what can be agreed upon as nightcore
You're right, the definition of Nightcore is quite tricky indeed, I also agree with you that the most common usage should be followed, which is higher speed and pitch. So technically it's the same as Spe(e)d Up Ver. and perhaps using only one of the two markers would be a better option but I'm not sure if that's ideal since both markers have been used a lot for past maps. On YouTube, any type of song that is sped up is mostly labeled as Nightcore, this genre distinction I talked about in the OP is probably an osu thing but it does make sense somehow because originally, Nightcore was used for electronic dance music. So yea, it just comes down to what usage is preferred by most people and what is most common.
xenal
For the sake of simplicity and avoiding subjective definition of "Nightcore", we could simply not use it and use speedup for every thing while addind a guideline or a comment in the description of that rule to include "Nightcore" in tags for anything related to it so it can be searched more easly. Exception to maps who are by their titles nightcored (avoid mixing nightcore and speed up) like compilations.

Also still going to stick with "Speed" instead of this random switch that happened in end of june to "Sped". Before Nevo said it, only 1 map got ranked using "sped" (and that was 2008, so quality is reliable xd). Said before why "Speed up" is used instead of "Sped". This is just going against the rest of the world right now, stop it already.

So in summary, while it hurt my heart to let ztrot's nightcore times go, remove nigthcore and use "Speed up" instead and enourage nightcore tag when appliable.
Nevo

xenal wrote:

Also still going to stick with "Speed" instead of this random switch that happened in end of june to "Sped". Before Nevo said it, only 1 map got ranked using "sped" (and that was 2008, so quality is reliable xd). Said before why "Speed up" is used instead of "Sped". This is just going against the rest of the world right now, stop it already.

So in summary, while it hurt my heart to let ztrot's nightcore times go, remove nigthcore and use "Speed up" instead and enourage nightcore tag when appliable.
Speed Up makes no sense tho? We change tv size markers to (TV Size) we change all kinds of forms of featuring to feat. why should we not use Sped Up Ver. and be grammatically correct? And even though yes one map had Sped Up before I came along how many maps had a different anime marker before we changed the rules? Just because something is around for a while doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed.

blobheart

I don't have much to add onto anything about nightcore because I won't lie I don't know jack about nightcore lol. In my eyes nightcore is when both speed and pitch are increased but tbh I really don't know xd
xenal

Nevo wrote:

Speed Up makes no sense tho?

xenal wrote:

First, I've never seen "Sped up ver." and doesn't look fine in my eyes either (old site shows only 4 results for it (exluding results which aren't using "sped")). "Speed up ver." is more standardly used. "Sped" may be better grammatically speaking, but "Speed up" is the one used everywhere (like "value of attribute "Speed" as been increased up", not as a actual verb)
By everywhere, I don't mean everywhere on osu, but everywhere. Search engines will show up "Speed up" when you search "Sped up" just because this is what is wide-spread, even if you don't look for music.

Nevo wrote:

We change tv size markers to (TV Size) we change all kinds of forms of featuring to feat.
Tv size and featured markers are different : there was multiple way for a mapper to say them. TV SIZE, tvsize, (TV Size), [tV_sïzê}, etc. I would say this is much different.

Nevo wrote:

I don't have much to add onto anything about nightcore because I won't lie I don't know jack about nightcore lol. In my eyes nightcore is when both speed and pitch are increased but tbh I really don't know xd
It's more than that, tho I can't put a definition. I just tell they are nightcore or not by instinct
abraker

xenal wrote:

For the sake of simplicity and avoiding subjective definition of "Nightcore", we could simply not use it and use speedup for every thing while addind a guideline or a comment in the description of that rule to include "Nightcore" in tags for anything related to it so it can be searched more easly. Exception to maps who are by their titles nightcored (avoid mixing nightcore and speed up) like compilations.

Also still going to stick with "Speed" instead of this random switch that happened in end of june to "Sped". Before Nevo said it, only 1 map got ranked using "sped" (and that was 2008, so quality is reliable xd). Said before why "Speed up" is used instead of "Sped". This is just going against the rest of the world right now, stop it already.

So in summary, while it hurt my heart to let ztrot's nightcore times go, remove nigthcore and use "Speed up" instead and enourage nightcore tag when appliable.
I feel there needs to be a distinction between increased tempo and increased tempo+pitch. It does help when searching.
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki
I don't have much to say regarding Speed vs. Sped since the former seems to be more common as xenal said while the latter is more correct grammatically as Nevo pointed out, I don't know which one makes more sense to use so let's see if other people have something to add.

As for the distinction between Nightcore and Spe(e)d Up, I checked several ranked maps with these markers (both new and old ones) and apparently it's not true that only Nightcore Mixes have a higher pitch, most Speed Up Ver. songs do too. So technically they're both the same thing with the only difference being that Nightcore is usually more common on electronic songs, but many old maps use (Nightcore Mix) for non-electronic songs too, probably because on YouTube everything is labeled as Nightcore and the metadata rules weren't as strict back then. It would be nice to hear what mappers who mapped this kind of songs think about it.
xenal

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

As for the distinction between Nightcore and Spe(e)d Up, I checked several ranked maps with these markers (both new and old ones) and apparently it's not true that only Nightcore Mixes have a higher pitch, most Speed Up Ver. songs do too.
Speeding up a song also increase the pitch (sound waves being compressed, higher frequency(?), sounds pitched up). Exemple with old cassettes, fowarding a cassette while having play button active sounds really high pitched. Most software nowdays offer to compensate when speeding up (often named as "tempo" instead of speed). So Speedup and nightcore do sounds the exact same, with exception nigthcore may add extra pitch if it's not pitched enough (song already fast)

abraker wrote:

I feel there needs to be a distinction between increased tempo and increased tempo+pitch. It does help when searching.
If we say that tempo+pitch is nigthcore and tempo is speed, at this point we'll get false nightcore for the above reason that speed = pitch
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki
I guess this means that Nightcore should indeed be used for electronic songs as mentioned in the OP since there is no other difference between the two.

I think it's better to remove the thing about pitch from the wording though because if a song was only made faster without changing the pitch it should still have the marker, but on the other hand I don't know if there are even maps that do that
pishifat
i'd personally go for standardizing both into one marker. having distinctions for this and having to decide if a song is electronic enough to have nightcore vs sped up seems silly

i also don't really know about this unwritten rule stuff regarding using "Sped" vs "Speed", but if there's a term that more people prefer, we should just go with that one
Noffy
I personally think (Sped Up Ver.) is best because

- it makes grammatical sense
(Speed Up Ver.) was used previously but I don't think that's a reason to prevent positive change.

- basically every nightcore song is sped up, but not every sped up song is nightcore.
So if one tag has to cover both, Sped is much better than nightcore.
pishifat
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2453 will be pending for a few days for last minute input

went with only the sped up ver marker
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki
Uhh no don't merge this yet I asked Andrea what he thinks since he mapped many Nightcore songs and he said there's a difference between the two

Edit: I added the genres that require (Nightcore Mix) in the OP, using (Sped Up Ver.) for both doesn't work because it's not intended for those genres
Andrea
There is a difference between Nightcore Mix and Sped Up.

"Nightcore Mix" is a term which describes the style of speeding up Eurodance, Techno, Hands Up, Dance and Trance music.
Music which doesn't classify as "Nightcore Mix" but as "Sped Up." are the other kind of genres, like Pop/Rock music which uses the same technique of the Nightcore music.

Since this kind of music remixing was born as Nightcore and not as Sped Up. then it would make more sense to rename everything as Nightcore Mix in this case then.
Myxo
why would "sped up version" make more sense grammatically than "speed up version"? i'm pretty sure the intention behind the term "speed up version" is that we are talking about "the speed up" (which could be alternatively spelled as "the speedup") as a noun rather than a verb
Nuvolina
Nightcore is a remix for trance/techno/dance music that was born in 2002... Starting from 2010 this kind or remix started to be popular also in other music genres which are what we call "sped-up music."
Basically the nightcore music has been compared to happy hardcore and bubblegum bass due to its fast tempos, energetic feel and high-pitched vocals. That's why talking about nightcore and sped up it's different and if we really have to make a rule about it, let's keep in mind this entire type of remix started as Nightcore and not as Sped Up.
Monstrata
Who decided "speed up" was the way to go? Why not "Faster Version"?
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