We've been using these markers in a standardized way for recently ranked maps such as https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/995098#osu/2081395 and https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/984684#osu/2060305, but there are no rules about it in the RC. To avoid useless discussions and misunderstandings, I think rules about these markers should be added. This doesn't actually change anything, it just makes the unwritten rules official.

It could be something like this:

xtrem3x wrote:

for some reason that guideline seems contradictory, because there is another one that specifies that any unauthorized audio edition cannot be mapped (if is a remix or a song compilation there is no problem).

What rule/guideline are you talking about? I can't find anything about this in the RC honestly

I also don't find that guideline in RC, assuming it's a misinterpretation of the edit to reach a drain time treshold rule.

I would agree that standardizing it would be simplier than arguing with other mappers. Wording need adjustement tho.

First, I've never seen "Sped up ver." and doesn't look fine in my eyes either (old site shows only 4 results for it (exluding results which aren't using "sped")). "Speed up ver." is more standardly used. "Sped" may be better grammatically speaking, but "Speed up" is the one used all across the web (like "value of "Speed" as been increased up", not as a actual verb)

Now the difference between Nightcore and Speed up is an issue here. Nightcore genre itself isn't really defined. It's a young style to start with and not a music genre in itself because it's mostly a modification of an other song. A definition cannot be set in stone. Some people will say it's trance and dance music with 160-180bpm and high pitch, including sped up songs, also kinda including happy hardcore, and others will just say it's sped and pitched up music around 10%-30%. Currently, youtube seems to go with the flow and use the second (more popular and agreed on) (Youtube auto nightcore channel). There is no RELIABLE source for a official definition and I think the popular opinion should be used instead of the "origins".

I feel like speed up should be more like "well bpm is so low I can't make a good map, so let me just speed this up in audacity real quick" kinda of stuff, like https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/240256 speed up by 100% (it's actually taken from https://youtu.be/3IJUXFXbros which is labeled as nightcore, but breaks what I said about speed above, in both bpm and %, so yeah... idk anymore), and that nightcore should be used for what can be agreed upon as nightcore

xenal wrote:

First, I've never seen "Sped up ver." and doesn't look fine in my eyes either (old site shows only 4 results for it (exluding results which aren't using "sped")). "Speed up ver." is more standardly used. "Sped" may be better grammatically speaking, but "Speed up" is the one used all across the web (like "value of "Speed" as been increased up", not as a actual verb)

The reason why I went for "Sped" and not "Speed" is that this has been (unofficially) changed a few weeks ago because it seems to be more correct grammatically as you said. Therefore I simply went along with it, however I don't mind whether it's Speed or Sped, either one works in my opinion.

xenal wrote:

Now the difference between Nightcore and Speed up is an issue here. Nightcore genre itself isn't really defined. It's a young style to start with and not a music genre in itself because it's mostly a modification of an other song. A definition cannot be set in stone. Some people will say it's trance and dance music with 160-180bpm and high pitch, including sped up songs, also kinda including happy hardcore, and others will just say it's sped and pitched up music around 10%-30%. Currently, youtube seems to go with the flow and use the second (more popular and agreed on) (Youtube auto nightcore channel). There is no RELIABLE source for a official definition and I think the popular opinion should be used instead of the "origins".

I feel like speed up should be more like "well bpm is so low I can't make a good map, so let me just speed this up in audacity real quick" kinda of stuff, like https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/240256 speed up by 100% (it's actually taken from https://youtu.be/3IJUXFXbros which is labeled as nightcore, but breaks what I said about speed above, in both bpm and %, so yeah... idk anymore), and that nightcore should be used for what can be agreed upon as nightcore

You're right, the definition of Nightcore is quite tricky indeed, I also agree with you that the most common usage should be followed, which is higher speed and pitch. So technically it's the same as Spe(e)d Up Ver. and perhaps using only one of the two markers would be a better option but I'm not sure if that's ideal since both markers have been used a lot for past maps. On YouTube, any type of song that is sped up is mostly labeled as Nightcore, this genre distinction I talked about in the OP is probably an osu thing but it does make sense somehow because originally, Nightcore was used for electronic dance music. So yea, it just comes down to what usage is preferred by most people and what is most common.

For the sake of simplicity and avoiding subjective definition of "Nightcore", we could simply not use it and use speedup for every thing while addind a guideline or a comment in the description of that rule to include "Nightcore" in tags for anything related to it so it can be searched more easly. Exception to maps who are by their titles nightcored (avoid mixing nightcore and speed up) like compilations.

Also still going to stick with "Speed" instead of this random switch that happened in end of june to "Sped". Before Nevo said it, only 1 map got ranked using "sped" (and that was 2008, so quality is reliable xd). Said before why "Speed up" is used instead of "Sped". This is just going against the rest of the world right now, stop it already.

So in summary, while it hurt my heart to let ztrot's nightcore times go, remove nigthcore and use "Speed up" instead and enourage nightcore tag when appliable.

xenal wrote:

Also still going to stick with "Speed" instead of this random switch that happened in end of june to "Sped". Before Nevo said it, only 1 map got ranked using "sped" (and that was 2008, so quality is reliable xd). Said before why "Speed up" is used instead of "Sped". This is just going against the rest of the world right now, stop it already.

So in summary, while it hurt my heart to let ztrot's nightcore times go, remove nigthcore and use "Speed up" instead and enourage nightcore tag when appliable.

Speed Up makes no sense tho? We change tv size markers to (TV Size) we change all kinds of forms of featuring to feat. why should we not use Sped Up Ver. and be grammatically correct? And even though yes one map had Sped Up before I came along how many maps had a different anime marker before we changed the rules? Just because something is around for a while doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed.

blobheart

I don't have much to add onto anything about nightcore because I won't lie I don't know jack about nightcore lol. In my eyes nightcore is when both speed and pitch are increased but tbh I really don't know xd

Nevo wrote:

Speed Up makes no sense tho?

xenal wrote:

First, I've never seen "Sped up ver." and doesn't look fine in my eyes either (old site shows only 4 results for it (exluding results which aren't using "sped")). "Speed up ver." is more standardly used. "Sped" may be better grammatically speaking, but "Speed up" is the one used everywhere (like "value of attribute "Speed" as been increased up", not as a actual verb)

By everywhere, I don't mean everywhere on osu, but everywhere. Search engines will show up "Speed up" when you search "Sped up" just because this is what is wide-spread, even if you don't look for music.

Nevo wrote:

We change tv size markers to (TV Size) we change all kinds of forms of featuring to feat.

Tv size and featured markers are different : there was multiple way for a mapper to say them. TV SIZE, tvsize, (TV Size), [tV_sïzê}, etc. I would say this is much different.

Nevo wrote:

I don't have much to add onto anything about nightcore because I won't lie I don't know jack about nightcore lol. In my eyes nightcore is when both speed and pitch are increased but tbh I really don't know xd

It's more than that, tho I can't put a definition. I just tell they are nightcore or not by instinct

xenal wrote:

For the sake of simplicity and avoiding subjective definition of "Nightcore", we could simply not use it and use speedup for every thing while addind a guideline or a comment in the description of that rule to include "Nightcore" in tags for anything related to it so it can be searched more easly. Exception to maps who are by their titles nightcored (avoid mixing nightcore and speed up) like compilations.

Also still going to stick with "Speed" instead of this random switch that happened in end of june to "Sped". Before Nevo said it, only 1 map got ranked using "sped" (and that was 2008, so quality is reliable xd). Said before why "Speed up" is used instead of "Sped". This is just going against the rest of the world right now, stop it already.

So in summary, while it hurt my heart to let ztrot's nightcore times go, remove nigthcore and use "Speed up" instead and enourage nightcore tag when appliable.

I feel there needs to be a distinction between increased tempo and increased tempo+pitch. It does help when searching.

I don't have much to say regarding Speed vs. Sped since the former seems to be more common as xenal said while the latter is more correct grammatically as Nevo pointed out, I don't know which one makes more sense to use so let's see if other people have something to add.

As for the distinction between Nightcore and Spe(e)d Up, I checked several ranked maps with these markers (both new and old ones) and apparently it's not true that only Nightcore Mixes have a higher pitch, most Speed Up Ver. songs do too. So technically they're both the same thing with the only difference being that Nightcore is usually more common on electronic songs, but many old maps use (Nightcore Mix) for non-electronic songs too, probably because on YouTube everything is labeled as Nightcore and the metadata rules weren't as strict back then. It would be nice to hear what mappers who mapped this kind of songs think about it.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

As for the distinction between Nightcore and Spe(e)d Up, I checked several ranked maps with these markers (both new and old ones) and apparently it's not true that only Nightcore Mixes have a higher pitch, most Speed Up Ver. songs do too.

Speeding up a song also increase the pitch (sound waves being compressed, higher frequency(?), sounds pitched up). Exemple with old cassettes, fowarding a cassette while having play button active sounds really high pitched. Most software nowdays offer to compensate when speeding up (often named as "tempo" instead of speed). So Speedup and nightcore do sounds the exact same, with exception nigthcore may add extra pitch if it's not pitched enough (song already fast)

abraker wrote:

I feel there needs to be a distinction between increased tempo and increased tempo+pitch. It does help when searching.

If we say that tempo+pitch is nigthcore and tempo is speed, at this point we'll get false nightcore for the above reason that speed = pitch

I guess this means that Nightcore should indeed be used for electronic songs as mentioned in the OP since there is no other difference between the two.

I think it's better to remove the thing about pitch from the wording though because if a song was only made faster without changing the pitch it should still have the marker, but on the other hand I don't know if there are even maps that do that

i'd personally go for standardizing both into one marker. having distinctions for this and having to decide if a song is electronic enough to have nightcore vs sped up seems silly

i also don't really know about this unwritten rule stuff regarding using "Sped" vs "Speed", but if there's a term that more people prefer, we should just go with that one

I personally think (Sped Up Ver.) is best because

- it makes grammatical sense
(Speed Up Ver.) was used previously but I don't think that's a reason to prevent positive change.

- basically every nightcore song is sped up, but not every sped up song is nightcore.
So if one tag has to cover both, Sped is much better than nightcore.

https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2453 will be pending for a few days for last minute input

went with only the sped up ver marker

Uhh no don't merge this yet I asked Andrea what he thinks since he mapped many Nightcore songs and he said there's a difference between the two

Edit: I added the genres that require (Nightcore Mix) in the OP, using (Sped Up Ver.) for both doesn't work because it's not intended for those genres

There is a difference between Nightcore Mix and Sped Up.

"Nightcore Mix" is a term which describes the style of speeding up Eurodance, Techno, Hands Up, Dance and Trance music.
Music which doesn't classify as "Nightcore Mix" but as "Sped Up." are the other kind of genres, like Pop/Rock music which uses the same technique of the Nightcore music.

Since this kind of music remixing was born as Nightcore and not as Sped Up. then it would make more sense to rename everything as Nightcore Mix in this case then.

why would "sped up version" make more sense grammatically than "speed up version"? i'm pretty sure the intention behind the term "speed up version" is that we are talking about "the speed up" (which could be alternatively spelled as "the speedup") as a noun rather than a verb

Nightcore is a remix for trance/techno/dance music that was born in 2002... Starting from 2010 this kind or remix started to be popular also in other music genres which are what we call "sped-up music."
Basically the nightcore music has been compared to happy hardcore and bubblegum bass due to its fast tempos, energetic feel and high-pitched vocals. That's why talking about nightcore and sped up it's different and if we really have to make a rule about it, let's keep in mind this entire type of remix started as Nightcore and not as Sped Up.

Who decided "speed up" was the way to go? Why not "Faster Version"?

Myxo wrote:

why would "sped up version" make more sense grammatically than "speed up version"? i'm pretty sure the intention behind the term "speed up version" is that we are talking about "the speed up" (which could be alternatively spelled as "the speedup") as a noun rather than a verb

I think xenal mentioned this too and now that I think about it, it kinda makes sense honestly. It would also be better considering it's much more common than "Sped".

Myxo wrote:

why would "sped up version" make more sense grammatically than "speed up version"? i'm pretty sure the intention behind the term "speed up version" is that we are talking about "the speed up" (which could be alternatively spelled as "the speedup") as a noun rather than a verb

Sped - a simple past tense and past participle of speed.

The reason sped makes more sense is because the mp3 was edited beforehand thus making it require the past tense form of speed. For example "speeded up ver" also makes since like how a car speeded down the road.

Speed Up version makes no sense as we wouldn't say "The car speed down the road"

999 posts owo


also to add a different example
If we used say the word Accelerate we wouldn't say "Accelerate Ver." we would say "Accelerated Ver." And this works for Slow as well "Slow Down Ver." makes no sense are we telling the song to slow down :blobsweat: we would say "Slowed Down Ver." as the song was slowed down. (but who would even slow down a song hmmm)

If the song genre is "hands up Example song and/or jumpstyle Example song" (like DJ THT, Jens O. Basslovers United, Dj Fait, Scooter (only old songs)), use Nightcore Mix, everything else Sped up ver.

Ugh... Andrea has already described it!

Also... What about the Nightstep Mix? (I was joking) *hides*

Nevo wrote:

Sped - a simple past tense and past participle of speed.

The reason sped makes more sense is because the mp3 was edited beforehand thus making it require the past tense form of speed. For example "speeded up ver" also makes since like how a car speeded down the road.

Speed Up version makes no sense as we wouldn't say "The car speed down the road"

999 posts owo


also to add a different example
If we used say the word Accelerate we wouldn't say "Accelerate Ver." we would say "Accelerated Ver." And this works for Slow as well "Slow Down Ver." makes no sense are we telling the song to slow down :blobsweat: we would say "Slowed Down Ver." as the song was slowed down. (but who would even slow down a song hmmm)

You are definitely correct if you think of it as a verb, however as a noun "Speed Up" makes sense too as Myxo said. I didn't realize that either until then but I think that explains why Speed Up has been used so commonly for a long time, we might as well keep it that way

It's not being used as a noun it's describing the Edit to the song


excuse me for a sec.

1000th POST!!!!!!!!!!!!

AAAAAAAA BLOBRAVEEEEEE

removed this change from the pr until discussion is more settled

could i get a summary of what still needs to be cleared up?

pishifat wrote:

removed this change from the pr until discussion is more settled

could i get a summary of what still needs to be cleared up?

Now that we clarified which genres require (Nightcore Mix), it's only about Speed vs Sped but I have nothing more to add about that, everything's been said already I think

yeah fwiw nightcores are supposed to be used when pitch adjusting and playback speed adjusting is shifted around 1.3, 1.4x in speed. That is your basic nightcore. a nightcore mix fwiw is when you are adding something to the song edit like a drumline or an extra synth. You won't see that much as it actually takes musical know how.... That or you can just hit sync in fl studio and walk away with you laptop dj playing self.

So my take is Trance, Techno, EDM, Hardstyle, ect.. would take the nightcore title when speeding it up.
As other have said around 2008-20?? everyone started speeding up rock songs with the same settings but nightcores are the process of speeding up ELECTRONIC MUSIC!!! Nothing more, but if the guy seeding it up actually made edits to the actual song structure he should be able to name it what ever the hell he wants mix.

My 2 cents

i got no opinion about Speed vs. Sped (seems like a pointless nitpick) but rest of this lgtm

these threads die for so long :/

ztrot wrote:

yeah fwiw nightcores are supposed to be used when pitch adjusting and playback speed adjusting is shifted around 1.3, 1.4x in speed. That is your basic nightcore. a nightcore mix fwiw is when you are adding something to the song edit like a drumline or an extra synth. You won't see that much as it actually takes musical know how.... That or you can just hit sync in fl studio and walk away with you laptop dj playing self.

So my take is Trance, Techno, EDM, Hardstyle, ect.. would take the nightcore title when speeding it up.
As other have said around 2008-20?? everyone started speeding up rock songs with the same settings but nightcores are the process of speeding up ELECTRONIC MUSIC!!! Nothing more, but if the guy seeding it up actually made edits to the actual song structure he should be able to name it what ever the hell he wants mix.

My 2 cents

I somehow overlooked this post D:
Thanks for the input, you pretty much confirmed what some other people were saying about the definition of Nightcore. However, you also mentioned Hardstyle which is not in the genre list yet. Should it be included too, and what about Happy Hardcore? It's pretty similar so I'm guessing it also applies to that.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

Thanks for the input, you pretty much confirmed what some other people were saying about the definition of Nightcore. However, you also mentioned Hardstyle which is not in the genre list yet. Should it be included too, and what about Happy Hardcore? It's pretty similar so I'm guessing it also applies to that.

if this is about proposing more types of vague genre markers for maps, let's avoid that. it's already hard to manage the difference between nightcore and sped up ver as seen by this thread

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

Now that we clarified which genres require (Nightcore Mix), it's only about Speed vs Sped but I have nothing more to add about that, everything's been said already I think

could someone who's kept up with this thread post what the proposed change is here now that some discussion was had? i struggle to follow cuz i am a dumbo

re: speed vs sped, i'll poll the bns about what they prefer

pishifat wrote:

if this is about proposing more types of vague genre markers for maps, let's avoid that. it's already hard to manage the difference between nightcore and sped up ver as seen by this thread

Uhh I had already added a list of genres where Nightcore applies, that's the deciding factor so it's necessary to define it that way.

pishifat wrote:

could someone who's kept up with this thread post what the proposed change is here now that some discussion was had? i struggle to follow cuz i am a dumbo

The reasons why more discussion was necessary were these:
1. Your previous wording didn't distinguish between the two markers which seemed a bit odd to me so I asked people who are familiar with these music genres for advice
2. Nevo wants to use "Sped" and there was some discussion about that

After that I updated my initial post with a possible wording, but it can probably be improved. I'll post it here again for better visibility:



I was basically just waiting for you to confirm this/say what needs to be fixed.

pishifat wrote:

re: speed vs sped, i'll poll the bns about what they prefer

I'm not sure if that's the best solution but I also don't know how else to decide it since the discussion died out so go ahead I guess? It would be nice if some people could add reasoning though and not only say "option1/option2".

Don't mind me eating popcorn for the past months watching the sped vs speed.

Speed side have shown that it can be used as a noun instead of a verb (wait, my very first post on this thread said that), while the sped side simply denies it without argument, just "no, it's a verb!".
tl;dr

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

You are definitely correct if you think of it as a verb, however as a noun "Speed Up" makes sense too as Myxo said. I didn't realize that either until then but I think that explains why Speed Up has been used so commonly for a long time, we might as well keep it that way

Also, I'm not so sure about including Hardstyle. Ztrot said it and I've been out of the nigthcore world for longer than I remember, but that still doesn't feel in place...

Also poll option could end up flawed. From observation, a non negligable amount of people just don't care which would create a biais when asking them.

is there a not flawed alternative?

it doesn't matter, pick petals off a daisy to decide. Noffy has already changed "Speed Up" to "Sped Up" multiple times so I'd go with that

the nightcore rule seems oddly strict& specific

suggestion wrote:

Electronic music may use the "(Nightcore Mix)" marker instead.

seems reasonabl to me, rationale being a mapper should never be forced to write "Nightcore Mix" cuz nightcore is a genre(subjective), while "sped up" is undeniably describing the song. it doesnt really hurt to write "nightcore" but u have to remember it's a niche thing that people may not be familiar with

clayton wrote:

it doesn't matter, pick petals off a daisy to decide. Noffy has already changed "Speed Up" to "Sped Up" multiple times so I'd go with that

Where did she change that? o:

clayton wrote:

the nightcore rule seems oddly strict& specific

suggestion wrote:

Electronic music may use the "(Nightcore Mix)" marker instead.

seems reasonabl to me, rationale being a mapper should never be forced to write "Nightcore Mix" cuz nightcore is a genre(subjective), while "sped up" is undeniably describing the song. it doesnt really hurt to write "nightcore" but u have to remember it's a niche thing that people may not be familiar with

I see your point about not making it obligatory, but I don't think it's a niche thing. Nightcore maps in osu! are (or were) very popular and it's also a well known "genre" outside of the game. It doesn't apply for all electronic music though since genres like Dubstep or DnB shouldn't use Nightcore Mix (this has been discussed before)

any loved map with Sped Up Ver. is cuz noffy added it, and on at least https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/763885 (will be loved soon) she requested Speed Up Ver. to be changed

my point for the second one is that if I take a techno song(or any one of the Nightcore genres), speed it up, and add the "Sped Up" tag, that's not wrong. idk why you should make the mapper change to it "Nightcore mix " when they *didn't* try to make Nightcore and they might not even know what that is. it's arguably less searchable too

I think listing genres as specific as you did is a bad idea because it makes room for arguing about whether a song fits in a certain genre and this rly isn't important. also when someone maps 2020 newmusicgenre and slaps Nightcore Mix on it they're gonna be breaking this rule even if the marker is fitting

clayton wrote:

any loved map with Sped Up Ver. is cuz noffy added it, and on at least https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/763885 (will be loved soon) she requested Speed Up Ver. to be changed

The problem about this is that there's currently no rule/guideline about this so it's technically wrong to enforce Sped Up Ver. as of right now, so this doesn't really matter.

clayton wrote:

my point for the second one is that if I take a techno song(or any one of the Nightcore genres), speed it up, and add the "Sped Up" tag, that's not wrong. idk why you should make the mapper change to it "Nightcore mix " when they *didn't* try to make Nightcore and they might not even know what that is. it's arguably less searchable too

You're right, it's not wrong to use Sped Up Ver. on techno songs but believe it or not, the term Nightcore is used a lot more than Speed/Sped Up Ver., for example on YouTube. Regarding searchability, "Sped" is the worst option because it's the term that is used the least so it would be good to simply add the other marker variations to the tags.

clayton wrote:

I think listing genres as specific as you did is a bad idea because it makes room for arguing about whether a song fits in a certain genre and this rly isn't important. also when someone maps 2020 newmusicgenre and slaps Nightcore Mix on it they're gonna be breaking this rule even if the marker is fitting

Whether a song fits into those genres can be decided on a case-by-case basis, just like many other RC related things. It's usually quite straight forward to tell though. About "future" genres, I don't think the marker would be fitting for those since Nightcore is based on existing genres.

I know it doesn't matter, the whole discussion doesn't matter, which is why I'm saying let's just go with the opinion of the people that are gonna spend 10x more effort than everyone else to enforce this. looks like Nevo has been suggesting this all over ranked maps too

rest of it seems ok but i rly dont think this will meet your goal of "avoid[ing] useless discussions and misunderstandings"

My main goal is actually to just have any rule about this since there is none right now but ye xd

https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/3015

went with a modified wording based on https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/posts/7285078

- **If a song has been edited to have a higher tempo, use a `(Sped Up Ver.)` marker at the end of the current title string.** If there is an existing `Sped Up Ver` marker in the title, the `(Speed Up Ver.)` marker would replace it. Sped up songs in Techno, Trance, Hardstyle, or other similar genres must use a `(Nightcore Mix)` marker instead.

github comment wrote:

last part (or just the "must" rly) doesnt seem decided in the thread

anyone have thoughts on this?

github comment thinks "should" or "may" would be better per https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/posts/7286400

I don't think it makes sense to use "should/may" when it's a rule.
If you don't want to explicitly list all the subgenres that require the Nightcore tag, that's okay I guess, assuming people know when to use it or not. However, in that case I suggest not using Hardstyle as an example since it was only mentioned by 1 person and is fairly uncommon, just use Dance instead as it was mentioned by more people.
Also, did you end up making a poll
about Speed/Sped?

- my argument is that this part should not be a rule

- ye do that pish

- no unless there was one among bns that i didnt hear about

Fine, go with "should" then because "may" sounds more like an allowance rather than a recommendation.

applied

merged