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[Proposal] Add rules about (Nightcore Mix) & (Speed Up Ver.)

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Andrea
Beatmap Nominator
16,650 posts
Joined August 2008
Andrea
There is a difference between Nightcore Mix and Sped Up.

"Nightcore Mix" is a term which describes the style of speeding up Eurodance, Techno, Hands Up, Dance and Trance music.
Music which doesn't classify as "Nightcore Mix" but as "Sped Up." are the other kind of genres, like Pop/Rock music which uses the same technique of the Nightcore music.

Since this kind of music remixing was born as Nightcore and not as Sped Up. then it would make more sense to rename everything as Nightcore Mix in this case then.
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
why would "sped up version" make more sense grammatically than "speed up version"? i'm pretty sure the intention behind the term "speed up version" is that we are talking about "the speed up" (which could be alternatively spelled as "the speedup") as a noun rather than a verb
Last edited by Myxo , edited 1 time in total.
Nuvolina
191 posts
Joined October 2017
Nuvolina
Nightcore is a remix for trance/techno/dance music that was born in 2002... Starting from 2010 this kind or remix started to be popular also in other music genres which are what we call "sped-up music."
Basically the nightcore music has been compared to happy hardcore and bubblegum bass due to its fast tempos, energetic feel and high-pitched vocals. That's why talking about nightcore and sped up it's different and if we really have to make a rule about it, let's keep in mind this entire type of remix started as Nightcore and not as Sped Up.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
Who decided "speed up" was the way to go? Why not "Faster Version"?
Serizawa Haruki
1,658 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki

Myxo wrote:

why would "sped up version" make more sense grammatically than "speed up version"? i'm pretty sure the intention behind the term "speed up version" is that we are talking about "the speed up" (which could be alternatively spelled as "the speedup") as a noun rather than a verb


I think xenal mentioned this too and now that I think about it, it kinda makes sense honestly. It would also be better considering it's much more common than "Sped".
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,176 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo

Myxo wrote:

why would "sped up version" make more sense grammatically than "speed up version"? i'm pretty sure the intention behind the term "speed up version" is that we are talking about "the speed up" (which could be alternatively spelled as "the speedup") as a noun rather than a verb


Sped - a simple past tense and past participle of speed.

The reason sped makes more sense is because the mp3 was edited beforehand thus making it require the past tense form of speed. For example "speeded up ver" also makes since like how a car speeded down the road.

Speed Up version makes no sense as we wouldn't say "The car speed down the road"

999 posts owo


also to add a different example
If we used say the word Accelerate we wouldn't say "Accelerate Ver." we would say "Accelerated Ver." And this works for Slow as well "Slow Down Ver." makes no sense are we telling the song to slow down :blobsweat: we would say "Slowed Down Ver." as the song was slowed down. (but who would even slow down a song hmmm)
Last edited by Nevo , edited 2 times in total.
Kazuya
894 posts
Joined May 2013
Kazuya
If the song genre is "hands up Example song and/or jumpstyle Example song" (like DJ THT, Jens O. Basslovers United, Dj Fait, Scooter (only old songs)), use Nightcore Mix, everything else Sped up ver.

Ugh... Andrea has already described it!

Also... What about the Nightstep Mix? (I was joking) *hides*
Last edited by Kazuya , edited 9 times in total.
Serizawa Haruki
1,658 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki

Nevo wrote:

Sped - a simple past tense and past participle of speed.

The reason sped makes more sense is because the mp3 was edited beforehand thus making it require the past tense form of speed. For example "speeded up ver" also makes since like how a car speeded down the road.

Speed Up version makes no sense as we wouldn't say "The car speed down the road"

999 posts owo


also to add a different example
If we used say the word Accelerate we wouldn't say "Accelerate Ver." we would say "Accelerated Ver." And this works for Slow as well "Slow Down Ver." makes no sense are we telling the song to slow down :blobsweat: we would say "Slowed Down Ver." as the song was slowed down. (but who would even slow down a song hmmm)

You are definitely correct if you think of it as a verb, however as a noun "Speed Up" makes sense too as Myxo said. I didn't realize that either until then but I think that explains why Speed Up has been used so commonly for a long time, we might as well keep it that way
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,176 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo
It's not being used as a noun it's describing the Edit to the song


excuse me for a sec.

1000th POST!!!!!!!!!!!!

AAAAAAAA BLOBRAVEEEEEE
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
removed this change from the pr until discussion is more settled

could i get a summary of what still needs to be cleared up?
Serizawa Haruki
1,658 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki

pishifat wrote:

removed this change from the pr until discussion is more settled

could i get a summary of what still needs to be cleared up?
Now that we clarified which genres require (Nightcore Mix), it's only about Speed vs Sped but I have nothing more to add about that, everything's been said already I think
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
yeah fwiw nightcores are supposed to be used when pitch adjusting and playback speed adjusting is shifted around 1.3, 1.4x in speed. That is your basic nightcore. a nightcore mix fwiw is when you are adding something to the song edit like a drumline or an extra synth. You won't see that much as it actually takes musical know how.... That or you can just hit sync in fl studio and walk away with you laptop dj playing self.

So my take is Trance, Techno, EDM, Hardstyle, ect.. would take the nightcore title when speeding it up.
As other have said around 2008-20?? everyone started speeding up rock songs with the same settings but nightcores are the process of speeding up ELECTRONIC MUSIC!!! Nothing more, but if the guy seeding it up actually made edits to the actual song structure he should be able to name it what ever the hell he wants mix.

My 2 cents
clayton
1,842 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
i got no opinion about Speed vs. Sped (seems like a pointless nitpick) but rest of this lgtm

these threads die for so long :/
Serizawa Haruki
1,658 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki

ztrot wrote:

yeah fwiw nightcores are supposed to be used when pitch adjusting and playback speed adjusting is shifted around 1.3, 1.4x in speed. That is your basic nightcore. a nightcore mix fwiw is when you are adding something to the song edit like a drumline or an extra synth. You won't see that much as it actually takes musical know how.... That or you can just hit sync in fl studio and walk away with you laptop dj playing self.

So my take is Trance, Techno, EDM, Hardstyle, ect.. would take the nightcore title when speeding it up.
As other have said around 2008-20?? everyone started speeding up rock songs with the same settings but nightcores are the process of speeding up ELECTRONIC MUSIC!!! Nothing more, but if the guy seeding it up actually made edits to the actual song structure he should be able to name it what ever the hell he wants mix.

My 2 cents


I somehow overlooked this post D:
Thanks for the input, you pretty much confirmed what some other people were saying about the definition of Nightcore. However, you also mentioned Hardstyle which is not in the genre list yet. Should it be included too, and what about Happy Hardcore? It's pretty similar so I'm guessing it also applies to that.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

Thanks for the input, you pretty much confirmed what some other people were saying about the definition of Nightcore. However, you also mentioned Hardstyle which is not in the genre list yet. Should it be included too, and what about Happy Hardcore? It's pretty similar so I'm guessing it also applies to that.

if this is about proposing more types of vague genre markers for maps, let's avoid that. it's already hard to manage the difference between nightcore and sped up ver as seen by this thread


Serizawa Haruki wrote:

Now that we clarified which genres require (Nightcore Mix), it's only about Speed vs Sped but I have nothing more to add about that, everything's been said already I think

could someone who's kept up with this thread post what the proposed change is here now that some discussion was had? i struggle to follow cuz i am a dumbo

re: speed vs sped, i'll poll the bns about what they prefer
Serizawa Haruki
1,658 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki

pishifat wrote:

if this is about proposing more types of vague genre markers for maps, let's avoid that. it's already hard to manage the difference between nightcore and sped up ver as seen by this thread

Uhh I had already added a list of genres where Nightcore applies, that's the deciding factor so it's necessary to define it that way.

pishifat wrote:

could someone who's kept up with this thread post what the proposed change is here now that some discussion was had? i struggle to follow cuz i am a dumbo

The reasons why more discussion was necessary were these:
1. Your previous wording didn't distinguish between the two markers which seemed a bit odd to me so I asked people who are familiar with these music genres for advice
2. Nevo wants to use "Sped" and there was some discussion about that

After that I updated my initial post with a possible wording, but it can probably be improved. I'll post it here again for better visibility:

If a song has been edited to have a higher tempo, use a (Speed Up Ver.) marker at the end of the current title string. If there is an existing 'Speed Up Ver' marker in the title, the (Speed Up Ver.) marker would replace it. For songs of the genres Techno, Trance, Dance, Eurodance, Hands Up, Jumpstyle and Hardstyle, use (Nightcore Mix) instead.


I was basically just waiting for you to confirm this/say what needs to be fixed.

pishifat wrote:

re: speed vs sped, i'll poll the bns about what they prefer

I'm not sure if that's the best solution but I also don't know how else to decide it since the discussion died out so go ahead I guess? It would be nice if some people could add reasoning though and not only say "option1/option2".
Last edited by Serizawa Haruki , edited 2 times in total.
xenal
537 posts
Joined August 2017
xenal
Don't mind me eating popcorn for the past months watching the sped vs speed.

Speed side have shown that it can be used as a noun instead of a verb (wait, my very first post on this thread said that), while the sped side simply denies it without argument, just "no, it's a verb!".
tl;dr

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

You are definitely correct if you think of it as a verb, however as a noun "Speed Up" makes sense too as Myxo said. I didn't realize that either until then but I think that explains why Speed Up has been used so commonly for a long time, we might as well keep it that way


Also, I'm not so sure about including Hardstyle. Ztrot said it and I've been out of the nigthcore world for longer than I remember, but that still doesn't feel in place...

Also poll option could end up flawed. From observation, a non negligable amount of people just don't care which would create a biais when asking them.
Last edited by xenal , edited 1 time in total.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
is there a not flawed alternative?
clayton
1,842 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
it doesn't matter, pick petals off a daisy to decide. Noffy has already changed "Speed Up" to "Sped Up" multiple times so I'd go with that

the nightcore rule seems oddly strict& specific

suggestion wrote:

Electronic music may use the "(Nightcore Mix)" marker instead.
seems reasonabl to me, rationale being a mapper should never be forced to write "Nightcore Mix" cuz nightcore is a genre(subjective), while "sped up" is undeniably describing the song. it doesnt really hurt to write "nightcore" but u have to remember it's a niche thing that people may not be familiar with
Last edited by clayton , edited 1 time in total.
Serizawa Haruki
1,658 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki

clayton wrote:

it doesn't matter, pick petals off a daisy to decide. Noffy has already changed "Speed Up" to "Sped Up" multiple times so I'd go with that

Where did she change that? o:

clayton wrote:

the nightcore rule seems oddly strict& specific

suggestion wrote:

Electronic music may use the "(Nightcore Mix)" marker instead.
seems reasonabl to me, rationale being a mapper should never be forced to write "Nightcore Mix" cuz nightcore is a genre(subjective), while "sped up" is undeniably describing the song. it doesnt really hurt to write "nightcore" but u have to remember it's a niche thing that people may not be familiar with

I see your point about not making it obligatory, but I don't think it's a niche thing. Nightcore maps in osu! are (or were) very popular and it's also a well known "genre" outside of the game. It doesn't apply for all electronic music though since genres like Dubstep or DnB shouldn't use Nightcore Mix (this has been discussed before)
Last edited by Serizawa Haruki , edited 1 time in total.
clayton
1,842 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
any loved map with Sped Up Ver. is cuz noffy added it, and on at least https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/763885 (will be loved soon) she requested Speed Up Ver. to be changed

my point for the second one is that if I take a techno song(or any one of the Nightcore genres), speed it up, and add the "Sped Up" tag, that's not wrong. idk why you should make the mapper change to it "Nightcore mix " when they *didn't* try to make Nightcore and they might not even know what that is. it's arguably less searchable too

I think listing genres as specific as you did is a bad idea because it makes room for arguing about whether a song fits in a certain genre and this rly isn't important. also when someone maps 2020 newmusicgenre and slaps Nightcore Mix on it they're gonna be breaking this rule even if the marker is fitting
Serizawa Haruki
1,658 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki

clayton wrote:

any loved map with Sped Up Ver. is cuz noffy added it, and on at least https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/763885 (will be loved soon) she requested Speed Up Ver. to be changed

The problem about this is that there's currently no rule/guideline about this so it's technically wrong to enforce Sped Up Ver. as of right now, so this doesn't really matter.

clayton wrote:

my point for the second one is that if I take a techno song(or any one of the Nightcore genres), speed it up, and add the "Sped Up" tag, that's not wrong. idk why you should make the mapper change to it "Nightcore mix " when they *didn't* try to make Nightcore and they might not even know what that is. it's arguably less searchable too

You're right, it's not wrong to use Sped Up Ver. on techno songs but believe it or not, the term Nightcore is used a lot more than Speed/Sped Up Ver., for example on YouTube. Regarding searchability, "Sped" is the worst option because it's the term that is used the least so it would be good to simply add the other marker variations to the tags.

clayton wrote:

I think listing genres as specific as you did is a bad idea because it makes room for arguing about whether a song fits in a certain genre and this rly isn't important. also when someone maps 2020 newmusicgenre and slaps Nightcore Mix on it they're gonna be breaking this rule even if the marker is fitting

Whether a song fits into those genres can be decided on a case-by-case basis, just like many other RC related things. It's usually quite straight forward to tell though. About "future" genres, I don't think the marker would be fitting for those since Nightcore is based on existing genres.
Last edited by Serizawa Haruki , edited 1 time in total.
clayton
1,842 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
I know it doesn't matter, the whole discussion doesn't matter, which is why I'm saying let's just go with the opinion of the people that are gonna spend 10x more effort than everyone else to enforce this. looks like Nevo has been suggesting this all over ranked maps too

rest of it seems ok but i rly dont think this will meet your goal of "avoid[ing] useless discussions and misunderstandings"
Serizawa Haruki
1,658 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki
My main goal is actually to just have any rule about this since there is none right now but ye xd
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/3015

went with a modified wording based on https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/posts/7285078

- **If a song has been edited to have a higher tempo, use a `(Sped Up Ver.)` marker at the end of the current title string.** If there is an existing `Sped Up Ver` marker in the title, the `(Speed Up Ver.)` marker would replace it. Sped up songs in Techno, Trance, Hardstyle, or other similar genres must use a `(Nightcore Mix)` marker instead.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat

github comment wrote:

last part (or just the "must" rly) doesnt seem decided in the thread


anyone have thoughts on this?
clayton
1,842 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
github comment thinks "should" or "may" would be better per https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/posts/7286400
Serizawa Haruki
1,658 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki
I don't think it makes sense to use "should/may" when it's a rule.
If you don't want to explicitly list all the subgenres that require the Nightcore tag, that's okay I guess, assuming people know when to use it or not. However, in that case I suggest not using Hardstyle as an example since it was only mentioned by 1 person and is fairly uncommon, just use Dance instead as it was mentioned by more people.
Also, did you end up making a poll
about Speed/Sped?
clayton
1,842 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
- my argument is that this part should not be a rule

- ye do that pish

- no unless there was one among bns that i didnt hear about
Serizawa Haruki
1,658 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki
Fine, go with "should" then because "may" sounds more like an allowance rather than a recommendation.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
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Joined August 2013
pishifat
applied
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
merged
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