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[Proposal] osu!standard game mode converts rankability

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27
Net0
Beatmap Nominator
1,274 posts
Joined October 2014
Topic Starter
Net0
Recently a few maps got disqualified because of how the CTB converts handled the osu! standards maps.

  1. Tanya Derurechaff (CV: Yuki Aoi) - Los! Los! Los! (extremely high SR)
  2. Taylor Swift - ...Ready For It? (extremely high SR)
  3. Linkin Park - Living Things (extremely high score)


When mappers create maps for specific game modes they are made to work only in those specific game modes and that’s the overall understanding of the community so far. However, after the recent DQs, it’s now being applied the idea that converts should not break the performance points in the other game modes in absurd ways or break scores limitations.

If this idea should be applied or not I think you guys could debate it, however, assuming that we reach an agreement that osu!standard converts shouldn’t break other game modes. I propose the following addition to the specific ranking criteria of osu!standard, in the General section:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

osu!standard converts should not break the performance points or the score limitations in other game modes. Maps that contain .osu bugs that break the star rating in osu!taiko, osu!ctb or osu!mania or maps that break the score limitation of 2.147 billion in any of the mentioned game modes, can’t be ranked. In both cases, the map doesn’t work correctly with the game mode converts as they can’t provide an accurate difficulty or score.
Last edited by Net0 , edited 1 time in total.
Izzywing
osu! Alumni
2,251 posts
Joined March 2016
Izzywing
thumbs up
Kuron-kun
Kuron-kun

Hobbes2 wrote:

thumbs up
Trynna
714 posts
Joined May 2013
Trynna

Hobbes2 wrote:

thumbs up
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy

Hobbes2 wrote:

thumbs up
Chanyah
1,846 posts
Joined November 2014
Chanyah

Hobbes2 wrote:

thumbs up
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg
The first part not needed because RC already cover cases with editing .osu outside of the editor which results in SR bug.
ABD007
574 posts
Joined August 2016
ABD007
Agree ! ><
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,252 posts
Joined July 2013
Ascendance

Hobbes2 wrote:

thumbs up
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
VINXIS

Hobbes2 wrote:

thumbs up
Nofool
Elite Mapper
1,108 posts
Joined February 2011
Nofool
thread where u can see BNs giving more importance to converts PPs than maps quality

Hobbes2 wrote:

thumbs up
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
because we map for standard mode not other mode, this is just a thing because it is extremely simple to fix the issue, it isnt even needed to modify the map.

anyway yeah ofc
Net0
Beatmap Nominator
1,274 posts
Joined October 2014
Topic Starter
Net0

Pachiru wrote:

Hello guys, where can I download beatmaps?
Hello Pachiru, you can download maps on https://osu.ppy.sh/ domain, you will see something with the name of "Beatmaps" there you can search for maps to download among ranked/loved/pending/graveyard or download packs with a lot of maps all at once. Not sure why you're asking that here tho and I'm pretty sure you know how to download maps???

Nofool wrote:

thread where u can see BNs giving more importance to converts PPs than maps quality
Not really Nofool, whenever someone mods a map he's most of the time concern with the maps quality and trying to give valid suggestions to improve them. That happens with most BNs in their usual modding activity when pushing maps foward. But that's in another context, here we're mostly trying to discuss changes to the RC. So I do think that if you to join the discussion it should be about the raised proposal.

If you guys were just making a joke and I didn't get it, sorry.

Sieg wrote:

The first part not needed because RC already cover cases with editing .osu outside of the editor which results in SR bug.
RC covers some edits in the .osu as unrankable, such as broken AR values (ex: AR=9,25), etc. But here's the thing, the said bugs can happen even without the edition of the .osu by the mapper. The usage of 3rd party softwares such as the hitsound copier, or even other bugs can result in the .osu behaving in an unexpected way, that's why yes, the bugs could be a result of the mapper editing the .osu himself and that is already covered by the RC, but not everytime it's an edition in the .osu directly.

The idea of the wording "Maps that contain .osu bugs" it's because it doesn't matter what caused the bug itself, what matters is the .osu having or not anything that wasn't supposed to be there. However, it's just a draft and of course I'm open to modify it, if you think it's a bit redundant I'd like to know how would you change the wording of that initial phrase.

Thanks for the feedback.
realy0_
1,737 posts
Joined August 2016
realy0_
agree with this, you can even easily farm sometimes when fast 1/16 sliders are used and some modes make it impossible to pass
for reference
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/664228
Nofool
Elite Mapper
1,108 posts
Joined February 2011
Nofool
edit : got it wrong then i guess, thought the bug was just an half of the rule mb
Last edited by Nofool , edited 2 times in total.
Kuron-kun
Kuron-kun
No, this won't enforce anyone to map for any other gamemode. This is a bug and you can simply fix by saving your diff and uploading it again. This is not for when the pp feels "way too much", this is for when your .osu is literally broken and for some reason you get 8*+ in a hard or insane diff.

this is mainly happening to CtB (idk why) and covering every other gamemode seems essential and the only reason we're adding this to the RC is because it is something unrankable and there's nothing in RC stating about it anywhere.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
Can this be split into two rules? I can very much agree with fixing maps to they don't randomly have +7 star rating on a Hard due to some glitch in .osu editing with ctb.

Score cap should be a different matter. I think it's more contentious. Just because someone theoretically can hit the score cap on a 6.5 star. 30 minute map with 4 mods on ctb, does not mean the map should be barred from ranking when it's for standard. There should be both consideration for feasibility before outright barring these maps.
Net0
Beatmap Nominator
1,274 posts
Joined October 2014
Topic Starter
Net0

Monstrata wrote:

Can this be split into two rules? I can very much agree with fixing maps to they don't randomly have +7 star rating on a Hard due to some glitch in .osu editing with ctb.

Score cap should be a different matter. I think it's more contentious. Just because someone theoretically can hit the score cap on a 6.5 star. 30 minute map with 4 mods on ctb, does not mean the map should be barred from ranking when it's for standard. There should be both consideration for feasibility before outright barring these maps.
Like mentioned in the post, in both cases the map doesn't work correctly with the game. However, if you don't agree with the change regarding the score cap, I'd like to know what criteria would you use to say that "breaking the score" in some cases is fine and in other cases it's not fine.
pw384
2,288 posts
Joined January 2012
pw384
Actually, the ranked Living Things is an extreme case as it still breaks the 2147483647 limit under 4-mode CTB run with FullCombo. However it would be quite dumb to ban it from ranking due to the limitbreak on HRHDDTFL ctb FC as it is definitely impossible to achieve such score for mankind, even when the original set is designed for standard mode. So I think it would be nice if there could be some more preciseness or compromise in the proposal
Net0
Beatmap Nominator
1,274 posts
Joined October 2014
Topic Starter
Net0

pw384 wrote:

Actually, the ranked Living Things is an extreme case as it still breaks the 2147483647 limit under 4-mode CTB run with FullCombo. However it would be quite dumb to ban it from ranking due to the limitbreak on HRHDDTFL ctb FC as it is definitely impossible to achieve such score for mankind, even when the original set is designed for standard mode. So I think it would be nice if there could be some more preciseness or compromise in the proposal
The mod factor is something that's also not quite clear on how it should limit maps from being ranked, but I guess we could discuss that somewhere else. I do think that in case of the second point of the score cap 2147483647, we could stablish a valid mod multiplier different from the 4mod combination HDHRDTFL that was used on Living Things.

Monstrata wrote:

Can this be split into two rules?
I don't like making things more complex but it seems that the score cap discussion should be done somewhere else instead since there's more details in that and both pw384 and Monstrata raised concerns.

So here's an update;

Ranking Criteria wrote:

osu!standard converts should not break the performance points in other game modes. Maps that contain .osu bugs that break the star rating in osu!taiko, osu!ctb or osu!mania can’t be ranked. In such case, the map doesn’t work correctly with the game mode converts as they can’t provide an accurate difficulty.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
rule for wrong conversion:

osu! difficulties must convert to other game modes without breaking star rating/performance points. In certain cases, a .osu file can be formatted improperly, causing converted difficulties to incorrectly display star rating and reward inaccurate performance points.


mostly reworded to be shorter and fit rc better ("osu!standard" isn't official and rules can't use loose wording like "should")

guideline for score overflow:

Maps should not surpass a score of 2.147 billion with any mod combination or game mode conversion. Scores are not calculated properly past this value. If the score limit is not reasonably achievable however (e.g. a HDHRDTFL SS play on a six star map), it may be ranked.


accounts for the exception pw384 and bd were given

---

i can submit a pr for these in a few days if there's no complaints
Net0
Beatmap Nominator
1,274 posts
Joined October 2014
Topic Starter
Net0
I'm fine with modifications regarding the rule;

osu! difficulties must convert to other game modes without breaking star rating/performance points. In certain cases, a .osu file can be formatted improperly, causing converted difficulties to incorrectly display star rating and reward inaccurate performance points.
About the score cap I think more discussion is needed;

Maps must not surpass a score of 2.147 billion with any mod combination.Scores are not calculated properly past this value.
I agree with this being applied as a rule instead and only to the game mode the map is done for. Any osu!std map must respect the 2.147 billion with any game mod combination and that shouldn't be a guideline but a rule instead. The conversion to other game modes is the aspect that raises some controversy. That should be moved to the guidelines instead.

Maps should not surpass a score of 2.147 billion with any game mode conversion.Scores are not calculated properly past this value. If the score limit is not reasonably achievable however (e.g. a HDHRDTFL SS play on a six star map), it may be ranked.
The example used seems too vague. Something more objective could be that under any circumstance it shouldn’t surpass 2.147 billion with a 1,26x multiplier. However we could use some discretion regarding 1,41x multiplier if the map can be done or not with HDHRDTFL in the game mode conversion. Example;

Because Maybe being a case where 1,41x seems unrealistic while maps with hard icons like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/2228 are not so unrealistic possible to FC with 4 game mod combination.

tl;dr All game mode converts should not surpass 2.147 billion with a 1,26x multiplier. They can’t surpass 2.147 billion with 1,41x multiplier if the score is reasonably achievable.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
Score cap should only be considered if it is realistically achievable, and there should be demonstrable evidence from the community.

It is true that scores are not calculated properly past this value, but pp is still calculated correctly, and the player in every case still receives a score added to their Total Ranked Score, it just won't be 2.1 billion.

Anyways, there have already been precedents that have broken score cap and have been ranked, so we will operate under that mindset, which shouldn't change with the current rule proposition anyways, just clarify things better.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
For the score cap thing, it's probably necessary as a band-aid fix right now, but it really shouldn't have anything to do with the ranking criteria, but rather a bug-fix for the score overflow, or if that's not feasible, a feature request to force a standard map to not be convertible, just as how a ctb-specific map can't be converted to taiko even though there's no reason they can't. If someone is mapping for standard, only how that map works in standard should be a concern.
LwL
363 posts
Joined November 2013
LwL

CXu wrote:

For the score cap thing, it's probably necessary as a band-aid fix right now, but it really shouldn't have anything to do with the ranking criteria, but rather a bug-fix for the score overflow, or if that's not feasible, a feature request to force a standard map to not be convertible, just as how a ctb-specific map can't be converted to taiko even though there's no reason they can't. If someone is mapping for standard, only how that map works in standard should be a concern.


Exactly this, it's probably not easily doable with the current osu! client, but just applying a flag to maps that break the scorecap with realistic mod combinations that makes them unranked in that mode would be fine (though I would hope lazer makes it a non-issue by either changing the score system or increasing the cap), or not converting them in the first place but I think leaving them playable would be preferrable, breaking the score cap doesn't break the gameplay itself after all, just leaderboards.
Net0
Beatmap Nominator
1,274 posts
Joined October 2014
Topic Starter
Net0

Monstrata wrote:

Score cap should only be considered if it is realistically achievable, and there should be demonstrable evidence from the community.

LwL wrote:

just applying a flag to maps that break the scorecap with realistic mod combinations that makes them unranked in that mode would be fine
This means that pishi idea of using this as a guideline is for the best since that's your raised concerns, so I take what I said back and I agree with this;

pishifat wrote:

rule for wrong conversion:

osu! difficulties must convert to other game modes without breaking star rating/performance points. In certain cases, a .osu file can be formatted improperly, causing converted difficulties to incorrectly display star rating and reward inaccurate performance points.
guideline for score overflow:

Maps should not surpass a score of 2.147 billion with any mod combination or game mode conversion. Scores are not calculated properly past this value. If the score limit is not reasonably achievable however (e.g. a HDHRDTFL SS play on a six star map), it may be ranked.
@Cxu I don't think convert maps themselves are an issue, but that's another discussion.
If anyone disagree please say so, otherwise pishi you can submit a pr
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
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