whymeman wrote:

If 10 minutes of effort is a "waste of time" then that's just being lazy. Also, if the mapper was thinking about the players more, then there wouldn't be a need for a topic like this....

let's think for both of them... thanks.

Apologies, I oversimplify everything.

NatsumeRin wrote:

1.We're discussing a new way to solve combo color problems, include the problems may happen in the future, and the problems happened in the past.

Let's look at this with a logical approach:
Why are similar combo colors blending into the background a problem?
Because it makes it difficult to read and find out when and where the next note is
Why is not knowing when and where the next note is a problem?
Because it is not fun. If something isn't fun, you're not going to do it.

There are many other things which make the map difficult to read:
High AR, stacking notes, using illogical spacing, putting notes under other objects. The difference between hiding a note in the background color and underneath a slider, to me, is negligible. Allowing players to choose their colors will not solve the problem.

NatsumeRin wrote:

2.We should discuss about if it's useful, if it's better than the way we used before.

Undoubtedly. I would use it the same way I use the current skin deletion exploit. Only on maps which I think need it. But everyone will think it's useful. The question is if they want it. Balancing art and gameplay is difficult at times, and many people would rather be artistic and ostracize 10% of the players to protect their artwork from being completely ignored/wasted.

NatsumeRin wrote:

3.If not, you should make your point about why, also if could, try think some way to improve the feature or current system.

Having the player decide everything about a beatmap except for the timing window, hp drain, circle size, and note placement is IMO the ideal situation which has been harshly denied in the past. I've said before I'm amazed we have a cursor toggle. I would go so far as to say customization should be all or nothing, and I wouldn't complain if we lost the cursor toggle.

ziin wrote:

There are many other things which make the map difficult to read:
High AR, stacking notes, using illogical spacing, putting notes under other objects. The difference between hiding a note in the background color and underneath a slider, to me, is negligible. Allowing players to choose their colors will not solve the problem.

What you said is true except for the last sentence, which should be "It can solve part of the problem."

ziin wrote:

Undoubtedly. I would use it the same way I use the current skin deletion exploit. Only on maps which I think need it. But everyone will think it's useful. The question is if they want it. Balancing art and gameplay is difficult at times, and many people would rather be artistic and ostracize 10% of the players to protect their artwork from being completely ignored/wasted.

We could agree on "it's useful". Then the problem becomes the balance of Art and Gameplay. With thie feature i think we could let people choose what they want more, so no one will be really ignored/wasted. Not like current system, if a mapper insist his "art", a nuke is probably waiting for him.

ziin wrote:

Having the player decide everything about a beatmap except for the timing window, hp drain, circle size, and note placement is IMO the ideal situation which has been harshly denied in the past.

Don't know much but i could understand that.

ziin wrote:

I've said before I'm amazed we have a cursor toggle. I would go so far as to say customization should be all or nothing, and I wouldn't complain if we lost the cursor toggle.

Hehe let it be all then. If the reason is good enough. As a mapper i'd like to use this period to proteck myself, how ridiculous...

I know you're tired of me, but as i've said before, the problem is within the modding process, you should solve a problem by it's root, or do you give a coughing medicine to someone with a flu?

If you dont attack the problem by it's root and just keep adding band-aids the problem will never cease to exist, letting players control the colours wont solve the problem within the modding phase of the beatmaps.

I really hope you get it this time, coz i'm really getting tired of posting here

Edit: yay for using the same words as Ekaru

Your point is modding process should solve all the things, but it's just ideal. Because you can't expect several people to come up with an idea that ALL people could enjoy. So why not let them decide how to enjoy?

I said it again here now. And back to topic, quote again:

Wishy22 wrote:

with each user being able to choose to play with custom colors (and of course having the option to play with the map's one) you avoid ANY TYPE OF POSSIBLE ISSUE with this thing, which I think it's the best. Of course I may agree with the map having to be played AT LEAST ONCE for you being able to change some stuff like hitcolor and shit.

Don't worry about the modding process, we fix the things forever.

Edit: And for the old maps, your solution is "fix them one by one", which costs much more than just adding a new feature. Am i wrong with it. Also, combo color thing is in .osu files and any change of .osu file will lead to a update, which give many troubles to players.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Your point is modding process should solve all the things, but it's just ideal. Because you can't expect several people to come up with an idea that ALL people could enjoy. So why not let them decide how to enjoy?

Actually i can: viewforum.php?f=80

Like I said modding is not a flawless process and errors always slip by.
It's utopia to imagine ALL ERRORS will be caught during the modding process and I hardly doubt new rules/guidelines are going to stop any more problem from arising in the future.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Actually i can: viewforum.php?f=80

Irrelevant post again, also:
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=57060
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=57292

I just loled. Sorry, i can't expect discussions like this will end up with a nice idea. Before the poll, i guess mm201 didn't think about a new feature to indicate slider speed change will be needed. And hey the discussion is still heated. Why do you even bother to discuss it, lol. Assume something and force it to players/mappers, do you think you should teach Cookiezi how to read slider speed change now?


Side note: How could an update with minor changes hurt the players?

This is a plot line shows the playcounts/day in one of my map. The place with a read square is when i asked LuigiHann to hax submit the video, which leads to an update. We can know from this line that players get confused when they need to update a ranked map.

Sakura Hana wrote:

I know you're tired of me, but as i've said before, the problem is within the modding process, you should solve a problem by it's root, or do you give a coughing medicine to someone with a flu?

If you dont attack the problem by it's root and just keep adding band-aids the problem will never cease to exist, letting players control the colours wont solve the problem within the modding phase of the beatmaps.

I really hope you get it this time, coz i'm really getting tired of posting here

Edit: yay for using the same words as Ekaru

^This for the love of (insert thing you love here)

/end thread

Seriously, there's NOTHING to debate about. It's a problem and this is the solution. Why this isn't a mapping rule already, I can't grasp.

Mapping rules should be ever changing and evolving to improve the quality of game play. If mappers truly want to make the best possible maps for Osu, I don't think this is too much to ask, is it?

Xact wrote:

Seriously, there's NOTHING to debate about. It's a problem and this is the solution. Why this isn't a mapping rule already, I can't grasp.

Why all maps are not the same already, I can't grasp.

Hey, if you want to discuss, use your brain, follow the things i mentioned, or you could go out of this thread.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Xact wrote:

Seriously, there's NOTHING to debate about. It's a problem and this is the solution. Why this isn't a mapping rule already, I can't grasp.

Why all maps are not the same already, I can't grasp.

Hey, if you want to discuss, use your brain, follow the things i mentioned, or you could go out of this thread.

There's nothing to discuss. Use your brain.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Xact wrote:

Seriously, there's NOTHING to debate about. It's a problem and this is the solution. Why this isn't a mapping rule already, I can't grasp.

Hey, if you want to discuss, use your brain, follow the things i mentioned, or you could go out of this thread.

You could stop being aggresive towards the players you're supposedly defending you know, why do we have to follow YOUR logic, when it's flawed?
Now who's imposing things on who? =O

Sakura Hana wrote:

You could stop being aggresive towards the players you're supposedly defending you know, why do we have to follow YOUR logic, when it's flawed?
Now who's imposing things on who? =O

umm, yours has major flaws too

LOGIC is ONLY ONE, nothing is my logic or your logic.

I said: If it benefits some players, do no harm to others, it's a good thing.
Sakura said: it should be in the modding process.

I said: This could solve the problem, because...
Sakura said: it should be in the modding process.

I said: Your idea can't solve all the problems and will cost too much to fix old maps.
Sakura said: it should be in the modding process.


who's imposing on who? nice question!

ouranhshc wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

You could stop being aggresive towards the players you're supposedly defending you know, why do we have to follow YOUR logic, when it's flawed?
Now who's imposing things on who? =O

umm, yours has major flaws too

If I see anymore trolling, i'm locking down this topic.

whymeman wrote:

If I see anymore trolling, i'm locking down this topic.

If the root of the reason is a guy jumped in with non-logical and irrelevant words, repeat it again and again, he/she already hurts the owner of the thread and do no useful things to the topic. I think you should ban this guy instead of lock the thread.

NatsumeRin wrote:

LOGIC is ONLY ONE, nothing is my logic or your logic.

I said: If it benefits some players, do no harm to others, it's a good thing.
Sakura said: it should be in the modding process.

I said: This could solve the problem, because...
Sakura said: it should be in the modding process.

I said: Your idea can't solve all the problems and will cost too much to fix old maps.
Sakura said: it should be in the modding process.


who's imposing on who? nice question!

It can't fix old maps naturally, but it can keep it from happening from here on out...which is what he's implying by "It should be in the modding process". In otherwords, stopping the problem like Sakura said earlier, "At the root of the problem"...

NatsumeRin wrote:

whymeman wrote:

If I see anymore trolling, i'm locking down this topic.

If the root of the reason is a guy jumped in with non-logical and irrelevant words, repeat it again and again, he/she already hurts the owner of the thread and do no useful things to the topic. I think you should ban this guy instead of lock the thread.

Okay, this has already gone far enough with this shitstorm of the "he said, she said" bullcrap just because you have those that don't agree with you. And now you're asking to BAN this person from posting because of it? That is NOT how you debate and explain your point of views on how you see the issue. If you want to make a point, don't personally attack people and keep an open mind.

@ ouranhshc: Keep trolling in the forums and you'll end up having some bad days. Don't push your luck.

lets not be too hasty here - there's a lot of valuable content and opinions in this thread, we just need to sit down for a moment and sort them out.

allowing players to change combo colours themselves in and of itself is not nessecarily a drastic change to the artistic metric of modding or beatmapping in the first place - it is simply allowing the players to customize a pretty integral gameplay element to their own tastes for whatever purpose, a feature which is innately something desirable to have.

on the flipside though, it is very true that the regulation of combo colours should not be required in the first place as it should be encompassed largely by the modding process, which it usually is. however, the modding process does not account for the individual and only accounts for the majority - that is, to make the map accessible to the lowest common denominator whilst still striking balance with the mapper's individual design for the map and the required elements for ranking set by the rules and guidelines.

adding a feature like this does not undermine the modding process. it does not innately harm anything. it does not provide ample leeway for mappers to abuse a nuance in the system to be more liberal with their design choices - it simply empowers the player to address a map in a way that they feel comfortable, providing fallback for the players who do not lie within the lowest common denominator and for whatever reason, enjoy the capacity to modify maps to their own individual tastes as they please.

i am unlocking this because i feel that this debate needs to continue like it did from page 8 - no more of this silly shit. this is a very conducive discussion and i think that we may reach an accord very soon if people continue discussing this civilly and with restraint.

soo, would the player be able to choose from all the colors or just a specific set of colors

EDIT2: fixing typo (again)

Statement again about the benifit of the new feature:

1. You could check the main idea in the top of the thread, check the label and extra points.

2. The new feature could not only prevent the coming problems in the future, it could also fix all combo color problems happened in old maps in a second. Because players could change them to sth not "blending" to them unless they just think the original color is comfortable enough to play. We could do this instead of fixing old maps one by one (let's say, 10% of the ranked maps have the problem, then 500 is the number to fix, and very obvious no one would like to do it)

3. This feature will prevent any "slip by" examples in modding process from the very beginning. Because it would be no longer a problem in modding. It's not "i belive in modding process or not", it's just really easy to know, compared to a period that "may cause problems", use a new way to jump it and solve is more efficiency and yeah, safer.

4. Back to the very beginning, even you can't benefit any from this feature, it won't hurt you as well. Because you still have the right to keep all things as original.



Edit: if you just come in with random or irrelevant words, better to be out, thanks.

i'm really curious about the implementation ( i hope i spelled that right ) of it. This wouldn't mess with the .osu or the skin.ini right?

ouranhshc wrote:

i'm really curious about the implementation ( i hope i spelled that right ) of it.

Get a button out of the maps, let's say, "set your own combo colors". But your own combo colors won't work during the first play of a map, it will be only enabled after you finished the map/get a score on the map once.

Yeah... that would leads to a player use same combo color to play all maps, but i don't see a disadvantage of this if he thinks that's the best way for him.

Edit2: I think the re-lock was a bug. I've unlocked the topic again. (But any more flaming and it's gone.)

I thought for sure this thread was done at page 7. This is flamey and if discussion doesn't go anywhere, I'm going to have to lock it.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Before the poll, i guess mm201 didn't think about a new feature to indicate slider speed change will be needed.

For what it's worth, I still don't. It's poor mapping design to use speed changes which will confuse the player.
Players in that poll who said they don't read ticks also said they didn't have problems with speed changes anyway.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Why all maps are not the same already, I can't grasp.

Difference for the sake of difference is a folly. You keep forgetting that this is a game first, art project distant second. Variety exists only to draw player interest.

Restrictions are part of the game. Always will be. You can't make moving circles, or circles made of cheese, or circles that eat the cursor when you click them, or circles that format C:\. This is a game. It has rules. Some of these rules don't come from within, but from the modding process. Visibility of objects is one of them.

Information updated in the main thread.

nice idea, I have to remove/replace the BG of some maps in which the color picking is really bad for my eyes.

I don't see any negative outcomings, if a simple "Always use skin combo colours" checkbox would be added to the skin selection. We can change them in the skin.ini right now, if we want
It will only help gameplay, when some colours blend almost totally with BG.
I think, I would personally use it only at times I have problems with a certain map that has problem with blending colours (an certain old one for example).

also for the implementation. maybe make it Map specific instead of where its one set for everything. I doubt that the same set of colors would work for everything. Might make things a little tedious though

nvm

Or we could have a checkbox, "eccentric, osuplaying shut-in mode," that disables anything map-specific.

I'd like to expand on SapphireGhost's idea, if that's allright.

I recall in an earlier comment, someone mentioned about allowing a "base" of colours that people could select from within any given mapset.

What I'd like to propose is this:

Allow Mappers to add an Alternate set of 'Safe' colours in a beatmap. This would cater for those who dislike/can't see the first set correctly. Here's a mockup of how it could work. I'm no interface designer, but I'm just throwing it out there. Naturally in a given set you wouldn't be using the one shade of blue Like I did.

I think that the player themselves should be allowed to set the 'safe' colors, because otherwise the mapper might end up picking colors that the player doesn't like either. Or maybe not.

Well, hey. That's another option. I myself do not particularly agree with complete control being handed over to the players, however I don't see a reason why we shouldn't just have the second set to default osu! combo colours (red, orange, green, blue).

If there are any objections to that I'd suggest trying Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan!, Elite Beat Agents and Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan! 2 again.

whymeman wrote:

If 10 minutes of effort is a "waste of time" then that's just being lazy. Also, if the mapper was thinking about the players more, then there wouldn't be a need for a topic like this....

You don't understand that it's not even 10 minutes, since each player is unique and when most players may have no problem with your hitcolors, some will always do, and then again by letting users choose hitcolors you avoid any kind of possible problem + you fix every old ranked map.

I can't believe this is even discussed...

If this is ever implemented:

Will it harm anyone? No.
Will it help "fixing" TONS of maps? Yes.
Will it help some modding issues? Yes, when you're a random mapper pretty much nobody downloads your maps or even know them until they get ranked (if they ever do), and then since many mappers/mods are not actually players, they fail to recognise potential issues in many maps, leading to the map being bad for stuff like hitcolors. Again, if humans were perfect we wouldn't need this, but there wil ALWAYS be errors when modding, and with this you can avoid some maps getting unranked just because one guy failed to notice black hits are hard to play with dark backgrounds.
Will it make some players happier since they gonna be able to play the way they want? Yes.
Are mappers gonna go "I MAD I WANT MY COLORS"? Some will do, which is why you can go do your thing of "well you got to play the map once with the whole SB/BG/hitcolors/hitsounds/etc.

Just ask yourself those questions and find your own answer, you'll eventually notice how there is no real reason to say "no" to this feature.

Wishy22 wrote:

If this is ever implemented:

Will it harm anyone? No. yes, the mappers who want to protect their works of art
Will it help "fixing" TONS of maps? Yes. no, there's almost guaranteed another problem with it.

Just ask yourself those questions and find your own answer, you'll eventually notice how there is no real reason to say "no" to this feature. because then we'd have to let in a whole slew of customizations.

IMO novid an cursor force should be taken out.

Do you guys realize, this has always been availaible?

Mappers can choose to set combo colours to "Default" in the checkbox, which allows players to use the colors they have in their skin.ini of their preferred skin.

Edit: yay correcting my own typos

Sakura Hana wrote:

Do you guys realize, this has always been availaible?

Mappers can choose to set combo colours to "Default" in the checkbox, which allows players to use the colors they have in their skin.ini of their preferred skin.

Edit: yay correcting my own typos

But this means the mapper can't give a basic combocolor set to begin with.

SUPER RAGE FROM ARTY PEOPLE

Now that this topic is actually civil, I will now politely state my opinion on this (I do apologize for my outbreak earlier - very immature of me).

I support this. The way I see it, combo colors are the least important part of a beatmap; personally, the only time I actually notice the combo colors being different is when I can't see them or something neat is done with them (which is really, really rare). Heck, those are the only times I've seen combo colors actually commented on.

Sure, this is just a band-aid, but it's as good as you're going to get IMO. It's just impractical to make sure every map has easy-to-see combo colors when people have different eyes and monitor settings, making the task impossible from the get-go.

And really, this is much better than deleting the BG from a mapper's perspective, since BGs can actually set the tone for the map and is a much more significant part of the map overall. But the combo colors? Nah.

Once again voicing my support on this feature. I really like how someone put it this way (I remember reading it in this thread but can't find it so indirectly quoting it):

The modding process is supposed to render a map with optimal playability for the gaming community. However, this optimization works for the majority of the community at best, which means there will always be a group of players who are discontent with the current coloring of the map.

(And sorry, it is not up to you to choose which color is the most comfortable to play for some people, people have different tastes and hindrances you don't even know about. Also "those people who find the maps difficult should have voiced their discontent in the modding process" is unrealistical. You can't expect every player to check every pending map looking out for uncomfortable combo colors and voicing their disagreements.)

With the problem defined like this, ephemeral puts it quite clearly why this is not a bad solution:

Ephemeral wrote:

adding a feature like this does not undermine the modding process. it does not innately harm anything. it does not provide ample leeway for mappers to abuse a nuance in the system to be more liberal with their design choices - it simply empowers the player to address a map in a way that they feel comfortable, providing fallback for the players who do not lie within the lowest common denominator and for whatever reason, enjoy the capacity to modify maps to their own individual tastes as they please.

KRZY wrote:

Once again voicing my support on this feature. I really like how someone put it this way (I remember reading it in this thread but can't find it so indirectly quoting it):

The modding process is supposed to render a map with optimal playability for the gaming community. However, this optimization works for the majority of the community at best, which means there will always be a group of players who are discontent with the current coloring of the map.

(And sorry, it is not up to you to choose which color is the most comfortable to play for some people, people have different tastes and hindrances you don't even know about. Also "those people who find the maps difficult should have voiced their discontent in the modding process" is unrealistical. You can't expect every player to check every pending map looking out for uncomfortable combo colors and voicing their disagreements.)

With the problem defined like this, ephemeral puts it quite clearly why this is not a bad solution:

Ephemeral wrote:

adding a feature like this does not undermine the modding process. it does not innately harm anything. it does not provide ample leeway for mappers to abuse a nuance in the system to be more liberal with their design choices - it simply empowers the player to address a map in a way that they feel comfortable, providing fallback for the players who do not lie within the lowest common denominator and for whatever reason, enjoy the capacity to modify maps to their own individual tastes as they please.

I agree but this falls in the same category as disabling storyboards, skin elements, backgrounds, whatever. And we all know how it ended.

Metro wrote:

I agree but this falls in the same category as disabling storyboards, skin elements, backgrounds, whatever. And we all know how it ended.

Well hopefully, the same argument that is used to repel requests for those elements applies less to combo colors.

Well at least 'blending or not' is more subjective than I thought. I've seen several players deleting every (or some) components of the skin of the map and saying 'it's irritating', while some players never cares about it. (like me.) I guess existance of both kind of players itself states it's quite subjective.

At least extremely irritating ones can be excluded by modding, but modders and mappers can't always represent players of osu, and most of players play the map after it got ranked. Modding isn't omnipotence. (Don't misread the meaning, I'm not saying 'modding is nothing' or something. Modding definately make maps improved. I just wanted to say it can't solve every problems.)

Yeah, I think this request is worth to be discussed. (Though I'm avoiding to show my opinion directly cause some are annoyed with this discussion and I don't want to make them annoyed more since they are powerful.)

KRZY wrote:

Metro wrote:

I agree but this falls in the same category as disabling storyboards, skin elements, backgrounds, whatever. And we all know how it ended.

Well hopefully, the same argument that is used to repel requests for those elements applies less to combo colors.

No, it applies more since combo colours are much harder to screw up and involve much less work (virtually 0) the mapper won't want to part with.

Metro wrote:

I agree but this falls in the same category as disabling storyboards, skin elements, backgrounds, whatever. And we all know how it ended.

/thread

ziin wrote:

Metro wrote:

I agree but this falls in the same category as disabling storyboards, skin elements, backgrounds, whatever. And we all know how it ended.

/thread

1. That thread was about having a toggle for the disabling of SBs after 1 play. The reason it ended like that is because people were acting like little kids. Keep in mind that peppy was the one who made that thread in the first place; if people were slightly more reasonable about it and accepted the compromise, it probably would have ended differently.

2. I would not put combo colors in the same category as other beatmap elements.

Whether or not the approach circles blend in some cases depends on the person's monitor. For example, on this monitor light yellow blends in with white. But, on the monitor on the computer downstairs, I can tell apart light yellow and white easily. Other elements are not really affected that much by the monitor, so they are not in the same category.

It is impractical to test a ton of different kinds of monitors for every beatmap; in some cases it isn't that the mapper or MAT/BAT were careless, it's that they had top-notch monitors that make it easier to tell colors apart. So, I think this feature is necessary due to just how big of a difference the monitor can make (and believe me, I know this from experience).

Some people seems not to understand that some players don't give a crap for their art but they just want to play fun maps, while others will of course enjoy playing some artistic map even when they can't see a thing and play by instinct.

I am not going to play your impossible to see map, if I can't see a thing because hit colors = BG and I can't do anything about it I'm better off not playing the map since I am not interested at all in doing so, and I'm sure many people thinks the same way as me. By not giving players the right to change combo colors themselves you just will end up having less plays in your map than what you could've had (ofc when osz2 arrives).

This logic applies to pretty much everything, since someone is not going to do something because you want him to do it since you think he should enjoy it, nobody's doing something they don't like doing unless there's a reward for it, and that reward here could be being able to play with your own combo colors.

How about mappers use colors that contrast the backgound instead, or just checkbox "use default colors" so players can use the colors they want, but it is seriously sad how often ppl go dark on dark and light on light and dont wanna change.

This thread is as pointless as peppy's.

Best of luck NatsumeRin but I'm unsubscribing.

Sakura Hana wrote:

How about mappers use colors that contrast the backgound instead, or just checkbox "use default colors" so players can use the colors they want, but it is seriously sad how often ppl go dark on dark and light on light and dont wanna change.

It ends up with leaving some of the players unsatisfied, and the mapper can't really keep his will as well. We have discussed it.
Here's a better solution, if you don't agree, think a better one or point out why it's not as good as current one. hey.

Sakura Hana wrote:

How about mappers use colors that contrast the backgound instead, or just checkbox "use default colors" so players can use the colors they want, but it is seriously sad how often ppl go dark on dark and light on light and dont wanna change.

Because their maps look cooler that way and that's a fact, looks better but plays worse.

This thread is stuck on replay.

With the fun spoiler, you're able to do this

Just check the box, go to your skin.ini and pick your default combo colours. Works fantastically. You obviously have to play the difficulty first.