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TO-MAS feat. Chima - FLIP FLAP FLIP FLAP

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VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
VINXIS
thats super weird i cant seem to see the black line or anything



i changed the other thing but not sure how i can fix the sb elements considering it looks completely fine on my end
Gero
4,438 posts
Joined March 2012
Gero
~ Approved (Qua3i.46ed) ~
Nozhomi
Global Moderator
4,568 posts
Joined May 2013
Nozhomi
I doubt anything will change but I prefer say smth because I would regret it.

  1. 00:22:023 (2,3,4) - It looks terrible and have a weird flow movement. Moving 00:22:280 (3) - to 120:196 would make it better and rebalance a bit the spacing.
  2. 00:30:485 (4,5) - Soometimes you reduce spacing to end a pattern but you sacrifice the momentum of the song. These objects are still part of the musical movement here and stop at 00:31:254 - with the vocal change + flute and should keep the same spacing to fit this.
  3. 00:35:869 (1,2) - That's a huge diffspike here. You just start a bit more intense section with a jump bigger than everything else here for something who don't even have more emphasis than smth like 00:36:639 (5,6) - .
  4. 00:39:459 (1,3) - Swap them would make the pattern actually more logical to play than a counter intuitive movement who don't follow the slider.
  5. 01:04:587 (1,2,1) - The pattern is terrible from the aesthetic side, and play really poorly since you just kill the flow from the movement you choosed for 01:05:613 (1) - .
  6. 01:09:203 (3,4,1) - So that's a quite huge spacing for these 1/4, also strange because it's different from 01:10:229 (3,4,1) - / 01:13:305 (3,4,1) - / 01:14:330 (3,4,1) - / etc... who have all a way smaller spacing, creating a diffspike and being incinsistent.
  7. 01:23:562 (2,1) - Same for these kind of spacing for 1/4, you're just abusing of slider leniency to create a "playable" jump between it and the stream, but the real window is too short.
  8. 01:50:100 (2) - There's no sound here. The only sound you can hear is on red tic 01:49:972 - . 01:58:305 (2) - have also the same issue, even if you can hear a bit of violon on this one, it's still softer by far than drumhit on red it.
  9. 02:29:715 (4,5) - A jump isn't necessary here, you map it with consistency all along on this calm part but you decided to stack instead of respecting what you did until this point for smth who don't deserve a such emphasis.
  10. 03:12:279 (3,4,1) - What is that ??? Just to stack them you killed you consistency with 1st kiai and patterns like 03:11:253 (3,4,1) - and create a spaced 1/4 triplet who is not stronger or anything to deserve it excepting killing the map at this point. And this is not the only one here.
  11. 03:56:894 (5,6,7) - If you wanted the stack of 03:56:638 (4,7) - that much, at least make the triplet have the same spacing than 03:55:869 (1,2,3) - .

Most of this is quite important, and even if I don't think this is not the best mapping style for that song, at least I would like to see smth I could enjoy to play.
Mukyu~
Enon
2,690 posts
Joined November 2012
Enon
It's aboslutely nice map
scanter
2,385 posts
Joined July 2012
scanter

Enon wrote:

It's aboslutely nice map
SB also too
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
00:39:459 (1,3) - Swap them would make the pattern actually more logical to play than a counter intuitive movement who don't follow the slider. How does swapping them make the pattern more logical or more intuitive o.o" Current pattern follows the slider a lot better especially if you consider it's using drop-off flow from the slider. Your suggestion creates an unnecessary flowbreak going into spaced triplets too...
Nozhomi
Global Moderator
4,568 posts
Joined May 2013
Nozhomi

Monstrata wrote:

00:39:459 (1,3) - Swap them would make the pattern actually more logical to play than a counter intuitive movement who don't follow the slider. How does swapping them make the pattern more logical or more intuitive o.o" Current pattern follows the slider a lot better especially if you consider it's using drop-off flow from the slider. Your suggestion creates an unnecessary flowbreak going into spaced triplets too...
Not following the slider movement force you do to a flowbreak here when if you swap position of these circles, you follow the slider movement and then go up who is more natural.
Example

But that's not a "main" issue on the map compared to others. This is probably one of rare subjective issues I mentioned.
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,006 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC
in lieu of specific responses I'll just say this. at worst, your suggestions break things---at best, they don't improve things. I think it was clear from the moment you described the map as "too technical" (on disc.) that we aren't viewing this work in quite the same way, which in itself is whatever, but becomes a problem when you try to mod against the idea of the map. this is evidenced, for example, by how many of your suggestions arise from a misunderstanding of how sliders in the map are meant to be played
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
Hi there, I've checked Nozhomi's report and decided to open the discussion.

Nozhomi - Avoid expressions as "terrible" and such. I doubt that this will honestly help the map, because "terrible" won't engage a healthy discussion at all.

RLC and VINXIS - Please reply to the mod accordingly. I partially agree and disagree with the stuff mentioned. Problems risen such as 01:50:100 (2,3) - - what exactly did you follow here? If anything, I'd use a 3/4 slider to emphasize the extension of the sound. But if it's worth a clickable object, I'm unsure about. I would still like to give you the chance to read through the mod and express your thoughts.

After you've replied to the mod and there wasn't any further inputs, you can call me for a recheck, as the map itself is well done (bubble).
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,006 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC
00:35:869 - reduced somewhat: please move to x:192 y:168, vinxis
00:38:946 (5,1,2,3) - misunderstanding of intended slider flow
01:09:203 (3,4,1) - misunderstanding of intended slider flow
01:23:562 (2,1) - misunderstanding of intended slider flow ("but the real window is too short." I've played the map plenty of times with nomod and with DT. No it isn't. This puts good emphasis on the start of the stream.)

Also, I don't get why you call it abuse.

01:50:100 (2) - you're right! but i put an object there anyway, sue me :( I was very proud of my additive hitsounding work in that section too... it complements the song so well in my opinion. Having (2) where it is puts sharp emphasis on (1), while serving as a pickup to the next phrase. This conveys the phrasing I was after. (Indeed, how an object feels is determined by total context, not just preceding context.)

If you would like me to defend "additive mapping" in general, talk to me on discord or something. I won't argue mapping philosophy here.

02:29:715 (4,5) - misunderstanding of intended slider flow
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
VINXIS
Helo

if i were to change things i wud need more reasoning behind them
00:22:023 (2,3,4) - how does this look "terrible" and misunderstanding of intended slider flow
00:30:485 (4,5) - the momentum is with the vocals Tho, if u ntoiced the bunny-ear like sort sliders r with the flutes and everything else is with the vocalz Lol, the pitch decreases and its emphasized with the pitch
01:04:587 (1,2,1) - how is this aesthetically "terrible" and misunderstanding of intended slider flow, the sliders r supposed 2 b played like this where it is uncomfortable for the player to emphasize a buildup where beforehand, such flow did not exist
2nd kiai sint supposed 2 be the same as the 1st kiai anyway tho i thot that was kinda obv : /
03:56:894 (5,6,7) - the emphasis are different for both instances so y wud i do tht..


ok updated

edit: changed reply for 3rd timestamp

Last edited by VINXIS , edited 1 time in total.
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
VINXIS
waiting game
Nozhomi
Global Moderator
4,568 posts
Joined May 2013
Nozhomi
Okay first yes I'm sorry for using words who could be interpreted like I'm rude, but that's just how I want to show how bad it looks, tho if explanations about issues are good enough then k that's fine. Sorry for that.

@RLC : yes I said I disliked the map due to the "technical" style from your mapping, tho that was not the main issue when I did this mod. You can have your style and done it perfectly, and that's subjective to say if I like it or not. But I saw here issues who at least wasn't subective to me that's why. No offense ;w;
About the mod itself :
  • 01:09:203 (3,4,1) - The problem is not about flow or anything, it's about the spacing between the two 1/4 circles who is highly different from the next one 01:10:229 (3,4,1) - who have the same intensity and map same music elements, or even the same kind of pattern just after at 01:13:305 (3,4,1) - , and I don't see why you break your consistency for no real reason here.
  1. 01:23:562 (2,1) - I said abuse, because you can play that since the slider end authorize you to play it since you don't have to go until the end to jump to that stream (sliders are lenient in terms of hitwindow), but in fact there's not enough time (just a 1/4 rhythm) to do that big jump. That's why it should be reduced a bit.
  2. 01:50:100 (2) - I still don't agree with that additive mapping. You probably have your reasons to do so, but the fact than we can hear a music element on 01:49:972 - makes it off and a bit weird to catch ingame. Even if was an extended slider as Irre said, it would skip it and wouldn't resolve that issue. Add objects on nothing just don't work in that case sorry :c
@VINXIS :
  1. 00:22:023 (2,3,4) - Just the opposite movement from the slider after 00:22:023 (2,3) - was a bit weird, but that's more subjective so if you don't want to change it that's still k.
  2. 00:30:485 (4,5) - If you effectivelly emphasized the pitch, why 00:29:715 (1,2,3,4) - is not too like RLC did 00:46:126 (1,2,3,4,5) - ?
  3. 01:04:587 (1,1) - Then at least stack them and do a real symetric pattern. It really look like you did a sort of random placement or a mistake.
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
VINXIS
u need to realize tht wot ur saying is 100% subjective theres no objectivity in wot u r saying because skipping and using (ghost) notes are completely fine depending on context,, i feel like u didnt read wot rlc wrote lol


as for my parts, the 2nd point doenst rly say much considering both cases are different, similar sounds but they r def not the same so its like ????
the third point is d cuz 01:04:587 (1,2,1,2) - are symmetrical anyway so ??????????????????????
Last edited by VINXIS , edited 4 times in total.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
dudes wtf there were 2 pages of complete shitposts on here

lol

im not quite following most of the concerns because on higher bpm maps the way 1/4 spacing is handled would probably lead to this playing really damn awkwardly but this isnt so uh
the additive mapping is actually mapping sounds or am i delusional
Nozhomi
Global Moderator
4,568 posts
Joined May 2013
Nozhomi
Things I would really like to see fixed are 01:09:203 (3,4,1) - / 01:50:100 (2) - / 01:04:587 (1,1) - .
But if you continue to disagree well what I can say ? Not like I'm blocking anything, I just think that's not what we're supposed to see in ranked section as it is that's all.

About the additive mapping, even if there's smth at this place, that's not worth to be mapped since there's a more dominant sound who make the rhythm way less akward to play on the red tic.
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,006 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC
once again, you say "fixed" as if to suggest these are "objective" issues. (Hint: they're not.) I don't know why you continue to address them as errors, when I have made it clear that they aren't.

About the additive mapping, even if there's smth at this place, that's not worth to be mapped since there's a more dominant sound who make the rhythm way less akward to play on the red tic.
recall what additive means

the point is that (2) isn't following the sound on the red tick or the sound on the blue tick (both of which are pretty insignificant anyway). What does it follow then, you might ask? It follows itself. It follows the rhythm laid out by the objects/hitsounding, which is intended to complement the song. And I think it does so pretty well.

I just think that's not what we're supposed to see in ranked section as it is that's all.
bro0o if you dont wanna see it just close your eyes 👀
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
VINXIS
i was supposed to go get a haircut LOOL

i think ur not being reasonable anymore tho cuz that just sounds like "no!!!!! fix it i dont LIKE IT!!!!!!" becasue in all 3 points theres nothing objectively bad or fucked about the map at such sections and they play completely fine at this low of a bpm Lol so : /





anyway since the discussion is assumingly done can the map go str8 2 qual since we only moved 1 note a few pixels haha : d
Cheesecake
729 posts
Joined December 2013
Cheesecake
Really fun map guys! Keep up the good work :)
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
Warning: stop shitposting

if i have to clean this thread up from useless memes it'll incurr punishments you've been warned
Cryptic
551 posts
Joined December 2013
Cryptic
Since theres discussion, here goes a few things I noticed with a quick check:

  1. 01:23:562 (2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - Reads heavily as 1/2 (the 01:23:562 (2,1) - ) but is actually 1/4th. No real justification for spacing this large, for comparison if you look at 03:25:612 (2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - it's the polar opposite.
  2. 03:25:612 (2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - This reads as 1/4 and is 1/2, 03:25:612 (2,1) - that part specifically. What are you even doing here..?
  3. 03:12:279 (3,4,1) - 03:16:382 (3,4,1) - 03:28:689 (3,4,1) - etc, why? They're not in the first kiai at all and the change in spacing makes no sense. I get the whole concept of variation, but that increased spacing is not only variation but an entirely different feel.
Overall I think the additive mapping is a bit heavy but it's consistent so, I can't really complain. And it never truly conflicts with the song...
Also, I think the slider into triple things Nozhomi talked about play fine.

Oh yeah, and after quickly re-reading, I see that 1:23 has already been mentioned, but if you don't decide to change it, at least make the spacing representations between 1:23 and 3:25 consistent in some way, right now they're completely contradictory which I can only interpret as poor mapping based on the consistency surrounding the map.
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,006 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC
vinxis really likes his pattern at 3:25 so i guess i'll change the design of mine

I don't see a problem with the spaced 1/4 in the 2nd kiai playing differently from the first.
Last edited by RLC , edited 1 time in total.
Cryptic
551 posts
Joined December 2013
Cryptic
The real reason I bring it up is because while it's fine to have something play differently, the difference between stacked 1/4 and spaced 1/4 is pretty large. If they were partially overlapped I doubt I would have cared and just considered it a "movement quality" you're trying to add to make it less boring the second time around, but to me it just seems like a fairly large increase in difficulty (respectively). Of course, thats subjective, but I'm just referring to the relationship that that pattern has with the song, versus the previous pattern you used.
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
VINXIS
yo fam im home wasgud

i changed the slider of 03:49:715 (1) - cuz i noticed it



03:12:279 (3,4,1) - 03:16:382 (3,4,1) - 03:28:689 (3,4,1) - its not as difficult as ur making it out to be tbh,, the difficulty doesnt rly come from the intensity side of things but more so from a "control" side to players because its not something that a player would misread or misaim so easily but its moreso of how a player "reacts" and snaps to it which honestly doesnt rly conflict with the first kiai in a severe way (at least concerning intensity difficulty) considering the 1/2 wide angle and uncomfortable circle patterns throughout both kiais bring the same kind of difficulty as well lol,, u see this done in (most evidently) ntr's maps where the same kind of idea and emphasis works out in the same kind of way,


i did move 03:12:664 (4) - under 03:12:279 (3,1) - tho cuz som1 suggested it ebfopre and i did it but it made it worse >: /


anyway updated bos
Halfslashed
Global Moderator
425 posts
Joined July 2014
Halfslashed
May I get a mod reply before this gets nominated again?
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,006 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC
May I get a mod reply before this gets nominated again?
apparently vinxis fell asleep and lost the mod response; i will edit this post later with one

dfdghdfs:

00:05:100 - the change might be visually big but it's nothing in play. I considered making the SV change at 00:04:587 (5) - instead, but that seemed confusing
00:05:100 (1) - 2/1 slider looks degenerate Lol
00:06:382 - the instruments in this section all waver a bit, but for the sake of playability having "expected" snapping is better
00:06:895 - that's surely more than "barely audible" (I'm following the lower-pitched melody, not the same layer that was in the 0.25x at the start)
00:09:203 (3,4) - I prefer this because it separates the guitar 00:09:459 (4,5) - from the triple
00:36:895 (6,7) - I don't see how the placement of 7 conflicts with the functionality of the 3/4 slider
00:36:639 (5) - the pattern that this was a part of was later adjusted to look more unified (00:35:869 (1,4,5,6) - )
00:51:767 (2,3,4,5,1) - increasing the spacing seems unnecessary
02:59:715 (2,3,4,5,6) - I wasn't sure what you were referring to when I first looked at this mod a while ago, but I see now you're probably talking about relative to 02:58:946 (8) - ; fixed ty
04:04:330 - I don't want that kind of emphasis on (2)
04:19:458 (6,7,8,9,1) - seems fine? the spacing at 04:19:971 (8,9,1) - is no worse than at 04:19:458 (6,7,8) -
Last edited by RLC , edited 1 time in total.
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
VINXIS
i swear i replied befor tho


anywy heres for my parts
00:23:049 (1,2) - and all other consecutive 1/4s r mapped to the flure idk wot string ur talking about Lop making them circles is kinda : / / / / /
00:33:818 (1,2,3,4) - thats fine cuz the emphasis is suposssd 2 b on 00:35:869 (1) - anyawy
01:06:639 (1) - it was to continue the pattern from before with the 2 sliders before it so Lol but lik i do kinda agree tht ther a bit underemphasized, not a lot tho
02:04:074 (1,2,3,4) - i Hate Tripolete + rather have movement onto the white tick isntead of the last purpl Tik
02:06:126 (1,2,3,4) - not changing rhythm but i spaced them out more u difficutly lovin Biccch (dont remember if i did this alrdy Lol)
02:36:382 (2,2,3,4) - 75% of the "mappers" on osu! dont even use stack view because they have no brain its ok tbh did it anyway
02:39:203 (2,3) - y is it a lack of emphasis just cuz of spacing Lol
02:47:151 (1,2,3,4) - note 00:29:715 (1,2,3,4,5) - same idea
03:18:946 (1,2,3,4) - Yall got no AESSS >:///// y doenst it work tho the same idea of wide angles and spacing was used before 2 01:16:895 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - 01:18:946 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - 01:32:023 (4,5,1,2,3,4) - etc :/
03:22:279 (7) - not even bad doe cuz u didnt notice 03:20:228 (7) - 03:30:484 (2) - etc
03:23:048 (1,1) - its kinda weird dat u pointed ths out and not the other isntance tht happens int he first kiai >: \ anyway
04:03:561 (1) - dis is RLC who done it
04:21:510 (4,5,6,7,8) - tbh lik personally i feel that the ending is the most intense part of this entire song/map so i wanted to go with the same relative intesnity with the song Lol

changed a few little things from the mod Doe
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
Oki dokes! Let's get it back rolling
VINXIS
Featured Artist
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Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
VINXIS
sikk
Karen
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Joined August 2013
Karen
2
VINXIS
Featured Artist
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Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
VINXIS
O
Gero
4,438 posts
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Gero
May I?
VINXIS
Featured Artist
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Topic Starter
VINXIS
yee
defiance
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defiance
please add "Thanks" in the tags
VINXIS
Featured Artist
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Topic Starter
VINXIS
use of the username thanks had less significance than gratz
Battle
2,862 posts
Joined February 2014
Battle
Noz said it was ok
fieryrage
osu! Champion / Elite Nominator II
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fieryrage
Thanks
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
VINXIS
O
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
Isn't Battle not allowed to qualify this set cuz of our new and improved rules?
VINXIS
Featured Artist
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VINXIS
oH NO
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