xi - Glorious Crown

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Naxess
Having a different perspective and interpretation doesn't mean they are equally ideal for the ranked section.

You feel the difference not because of the spacing but because of the angle shift. The map uses a very consistent rhythm. I use aesthetic changes such as turns and dips in streams to create variety and difficulty in tracking the stream movement.
These "dips" and "turns" do create variety and difficulty, but it barely follows the song in a consistent manner. As such, both the difficulty as well as the aesthetics become incoherent and unrepresentative of the song, which is the core of the problem.

Just because i'm not following the layer you think is the dominant layer doesn't mean I'm not following the song... Also looking at the rhythms you "want" me to map instead,
there would be very few places where streams would actually fit because the layer you believe is the strongest does not allow for stream mapping, only triplet spam, and that's not something I consider reflective of the song at all.
Generally the most prominent layer is what makes the song what it is. The problem isn't your rhythm choice, the problem is that a lot of the details in the song are ignored without the slightest indication that anything is different. You may argue that some angle changes or flow turns, but since these are already done incoherently, that connection is unlikely to be drawn. This in turn becomes detrimental to the map's overall quality.

Those examples aren't even related... you're taking my words out of context now. These are fine as kicksliders. They function as 1/2 clicking breaks in between streams and map the drum rhythm here.1-2-3--- 1-2-3--- 1-2-stream...
Mir is not taking your words out of context, the examples are actually related. The point of focus here is the comparison between the map and the song. the previous 1/2s reflect drums each 1/1. These, however, reflect drums on each 1/2. This is why circles were suggested to reflect that difference.

Because the piano layer you're following isn't the layer I consider dominant. It's exactly why I don't use triplet spam rhythms too because those rhythms would reflect the piano sound you envision no? Hopefully you see my perspective now. Also just because a sound is held doesn't mean you just map it. You can default to following other sounds, especially if those other sounds are what I consider more dominant to begin with. Slapping a 2/1 slider here is a mistake, i'm sure you can agree.
Slapping a 2/1 here isn't what was suggested, because that would completely ignore the background layer. Mir specifically suggested 1/4 reverse sliders in order to cover both layers while giving emphasis to the most dominant one in order to represent the song more accurately. You may argue that this wouldn't be consistent, but that's only because you mapped everything else with the same mindset as you did these, and doesn't retract from the initial argument.

I'm fine with it. I think ht expresses them adequately. Feel free to give me ideas if you think there is a better way to map them that doesn't interfere with my consistent spacing structure and flow. Otherwise I am keeping because all of these 1/3 streams are necessary in this sort of aesthetic because they are trying to constrict mapper's movement through tighter and tighter angles. Breaking structure here for the sake of mapping some drums "more properly" ends up detracting from the player experience here. I don't think theres a need to express these sounds differently because fundamentally, that would suggest that I am trying to emphasize those sounds, or highlight them, and that's not my intention.
There's really no need to break structure at all, you could potentially just lower the spacing between 01:13:548 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - and any other 1/3 stream until the point that the drums kick in. That way the map would actually imply that something is different from the previous streams. Not wanting to emphasize those sounds is essentially just ignoring that they're there in other words, which would be unrepresentative of the song.

It's just a consistent stream until near the end because only that section is where the song drops slightly in intensity.
The argument for the above point also applies here. By intentionally implying that nothing changes, the map is basically ignoring that the drums in the song are now completely gone. The same idea can be applied to the way the piano is completely ignored for the sake molding the map into what you imagined it would be, without respect for what the song itself is actually expressing.

Its unnecessary for the same reasons I mentioned earlier with regard to those 1/3 streams. It causes a lot more damage just to follow notes that I don't think are important and worth highlighting anyways. As well, highlighting them is counterintuitive to my rhythm choice to begin with...
You assume that the only way to reflect these is through rhythm and fear that any change made in this regard will no longer make your map worthy of the title "stream map", when in reality you can do so through the many other aspects given in the game. Just think of spacing, flow, angle changes, etc. The things you used to give visual charm and difficulty can also be used reflectively. There's no need to ignore the song to make these come alive. Problem with implementing it now, with the map in it's current state, is that it would lack contrast due to the way these concepts are previously incoherent. You may assume that implementing this, as you assume I am envisioning it, would be even more counter-intuitive, but this is where mapping skill shines most.

I think i'm interpretting it just fine. There is no correct way to interpret the song. I disagree strongly with how you think it should be interpreted. You are welcome to map your own version if you believe my interpretation won't express the song the best. But my interpretation has strong ideas and mapping techniques behind it too. Please don't discredit my map just because you disagree with it.
Mir's intent is not to discredit your map, it is to help you improve it before it's too late. There may be no correct way to interpret or map a song, but there are certainly ways that are better than others in many perspectives; otherwise there wouldn't be a need for a ranked section or ranking system. Encouraging Mir to map their own version is just irrelevant and irresponsible at best. How strongly you disagree does not matter in a discussion. What matters is how you argue for your cause. Solely disagreeing really only ends it with Mir's argument unanswered.


Seriously, just because something is rankable doesn't mean it should be ranked. Just because something is subjective doesn't mean it's invalid. Just because you disagree with a perspective doesn't mean you should ignore it's arguments. At least discuss it properly instead of saying that their standpoint is different from yours and leaving it at that.
Topic Starter
Monstrata
I did? I think you're making a really big assumption that I'm just saying "we have different viewpoints, therefore there is no discussion". I clearly explained the concepts I utilized on the highest difficulty. Mir is operating on the idea that the kiais should follow the high piano rhythm as the dominant layer. Fundamentally, we disagree on that notion because I don't believe the high piano layer is the dominant layer. The track is incredibly rich in layers. If you look at Mir's suggestions, they all involve mapping the high piano layer which he believes is dominant. Because we fundamentally disagree on the correct layers, it's very difficult for me to discuss every point he brings up without at least referencing our fundamental disagreement.

Suggestions like "why didn't you map this / why didn't you highlight these specific notes / why didn't you emphasize this particular high piano note" all make the assumption that the high piano layer is the layer I should be following. Hopefully you can see why this won't work. It's making an incorrect assumption that the high piano layer is the layer that should be followed, and building a mod around fixing my map to reflect the high piano layer.
Tarrasky
last diff, just a little question

  1. 00:46:941 - until 00:58:315 - respecting the stronger song of the drums, making 1/4 slider jumps when necessary, like 00:50:666 (1,2,3,4) - and still ignoring piano songs like 00:53:526 - 00:54:058 - for gives more emphasis in the drums,
  2. 00:58:382 - until the end of first kiai - certainly not following the drums, with clearly ignored in 01:00:644 - until 01:01:708 - with musically speaking are the same beat than 00:53:061 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - for example.

Can you explain, in your perspective, why this inconsistency? Because, in my opinion, the map must be at least consistent with moments that are musically the same, there's no why you add these notes for example 00:58:382 (1,2) - and being completely unstable with 00:49:868 (5,6,7,8) - that is the same song (you have added a normal sample clap in here 00:58:515 (2) - just because is a sliderjump? and in 00:50:000 (7) - that is the same song there aren't these hitsounds).
Topic Starter
Monstrata

Tarrasky wrote:

last diff, just a little question

  1. 00:46:941 - until 00:58:315 - respecting the stronger song of the drums, making 1/4 slider jumps when necessary, like 00:50:666 (1,2,3,4) - and still ignoring piano songs like 00:53:526 - 00:54:058 - for gives more emphasis in the drums,
  2. 00:58:382 - until the end of first kiai - certainly not following the drums, with clearly ignored in 01:00:644 - until 01:01:708 - with musically speaking are the same beat than 00:53:061 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - for example.

Can you explain, in your perspective, why this inconsistency? Because, in my opinion, the map must be at least consistent with moments that are musically the same, there's no why you add these notes for example 00:58:382 (1,2) - and being completely unstable with 00:49:868 (5,6,7,8) - that is the same song (you have added a normal sample clap in here 00:58:515 (2) - just because is a sliderjump? and in 00:50:000 (7) - that is the same song there aren't these hitsounds).
I thought the first kiai was still easy enough to allow for some variable rhythm. The first kiai's track isn't as consistent as the second kiai too. For example 00:50:666 (1,2,3,4) - as you pointed out, is the only place where there's four kicks in a row. Second kiai is completely consistent though so it's mapped as such. Well, anyways, i appreciate that you are pointing out inconsistencies with my map's idea intact. I don't think it's necessary to change this since 98% of the map is consistent so its okay to variate a bit on the first kiai, but this is something I can fix if we find something worth dq'ing in the future. I feel changing this would just be "different" and not "better" basically, so I'd prefer to leave it, but thanks.
hi-mei
I thought in 2017 arguments like "its my style u dont understand" doesnt work?

i mean, yea these mods are the same like "ure style is shit i dont like it" but its not like one person said that, its a lot of people seeing a problem with it

and also it brings up a question, like

do you really know what youre doing?

its not a map you can play, or a map that people can play
its map for 5-10 guys in the entire community who can properly estimate it, or to be real, for 1 person


i still think this map is decent, not great, the mapper doesnt really understand the music hes mapping but its above "shit" threshold
so gz on rank i guess?
_handholding
fk I posted a mod but I deleted it whilst editing... I'll redo it again later
Topic Starter
Monstrata
:eyes:
Mercusheigan

Monstrata wrote:

By "lots of people" I assume you mean Mir? :P.

Okay, let me explain the situation through re:zero.

So once upon a time their lived a NEET named Subaru.



One day, Hooker Rem comes up to Subaru and is like "Yo my boi Soobz I heard you liked Emilia, so I'm going to help you out!"



And then she tells Subaru all these things like "okay dude, so first, you ahve to act like you care a lot about people cuz Emilia likes people who care abot ppl and you have to tell her that being a half elf is great awesome sugoi and that way you can win her over! also you need to do something about ur hair is hideous, and also stop wearing the same jacket every day like wtf are you some shounen protagonist or something"



But then Subaru is like.... "But..."



[]

Hopefully we reach some mutual understanding now.

what the fuck
hi-mei
dude you got some problems
Idealism
re:zero is garbage just like all anime

now direct your flaming towards me
Adiopulse
I'm not here to ruin the game, I'm here to ruin your game

00:07:229 note should be here
00:07:296 (9,10) this should just be on slider

00:07:562 suggest using this for better accent of the notes https://puu.sh/wA1hz/16c46a7095.png

00:11:885 in this pause section you could really benefit from mapping those low base/synth sounds with sliders and give you a really good entry into 00:20:333

00:33:637 this is part is wrong, here's how it should look like https://puu.sh/wA1NB/0669599a2b.png the 8 combo note was on a `1/4 snap and should be on a 1/6 at 00:33:992

00:34:369 add a note here

00:38:027 should be a small 3 1/6 stream instead of the 2 1/4 you have here to better reflect the piano

00:43:149 add a note here

00:52:794 (3) this doesn't really make sense to me really, the kick back doesn't even align with the big kick at 00:53:061

01:00:245 something HAS to accent this kick, you do it for the rest in this combo

01:01:309 (3) another awk slider like last time

01:15:411 (10) no reason for this to kick back
00:03:304 should be like this to match the rhythm https://puu.sh/wA46B/c62395b45c.png

to stay consistent with your changing direction of the stream 00:24:058 (1) this should be accented more like the ones prior
00:25:588 (8) ^

I find that you are very inconsistent with the gimmick
Topic Starter
Monstrata

Adiopulse wrote:

I'm not here to ruin the game, I'm here to ruin your game

00:07:229 note should be here
00:07:296 (9,10) this should just be on slider

00:07:562 suggest using this for better accent of the notes https://puu.sh/wA1hz/16c46a7095.png

00:11:885 in this pause section you could really benefit from mapping those low base/synth sounds with sliders and give you a really good entry into 00:20:333

00:33:637 this is part is wrong, here's how it should look like https://puu.sh/wA1NB/0669599a2b.png the 8 combo note was on a `1/4 snap and should be on a 1/6 at 00:33:992

00:34:369 add a note here

00:38:027 should be a small 3 1/6 stream instead of the 2 1/4 you have here to better reflect the piano

00:43:149 add a note here

00:52:794 (3) this doesn't really make sense to me really, the kick back doesn't even align with the big kick at 00:53:061

01:00:245 something HAS to accent this kick, you do it for the rest in this combo

01:01:309 (3) another awk slider like last time

01:15:411 (10) no reason for this to kick back
00:03:304 should be like this to match the rhythm https://puu.sh/wA46B/c62395b45c.png What? nope, its supposed to be a triplet to match the other triplets.

to stay consistent with your changing direction of the stream 00:24:058 (1) this should be accented more like the ones prior clockwise to counterclockwise flow shift.
00:25:588 (8) ^ ^

I find that you are very inconsistent with the gimmick
Net0
The only thing I'd request to change in this mapset is the last diff name. Why four dimensions top diff name if your map is not a tribute or similar to the original Freedom Dive map? (not saying Blue Zenith is similar either, but I wasn't really involved with mapping when that got ranked). If it's just because it's a xi song I'm ok with that as long as the next mappers who want to rank xi stuff will also be capable of using that diff name.
note551

Net0 wrote:

The only thing I'd request to change in this mapset is the last diff name. Why four dimensions top diff name if your map is not a tribute or similar to the original Freedom Dive map? (not saying Blue Zenith is similar either, but I wasn't really involved with mapping when that got ranked). If it's just because it's a xi song I'm ok with that as long as the next mappers who want to rank xi stuff will also be capable of using that diff name.
I believe it's a sequel of sorts to freedom dive
KittyAdventure
Glorious Crown is sequel from Freedom Dive. If you listening the full version in the middle song, that has Freedom Dive part
-Sh1n1-
I like how "monstratita" sounds, I should start to call u like that :3 Gratz bro
Ascendance
Writing walls of text on Monstrata maps is a rite of passage as a new BN, ushered forward by the era of Naxess and carried forth by his pupil Mir
egg and cheese
Edit: this isnt how i should be, even when tripping out and getting triggered. I'm sorry for not being able to keep my posture, i expect no further response.

00:22:994 (1,1) - so both of these have a sharp angle here to emphasise the drum that comes in here, however at 00:24:058 (1,5) - you go about making the stream feel natural eventhough the song has the same sounds playing? i think this is an inconsitency
00:48:803 (5) - missed NC? the sound that's playing here is very similar to 00:48:271 (1) - which also had its own NC
00:54:923 (9) - would've loved to see this note be emphasised a bit more as its like a closure to me. the drum sound here seems to have a longer sound duration than the others (00:54:391 (1,5) - ) and yes it's stronger than the others. just try to consider adding in at least some NCs here to get it going good
00:58:648 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - i fail to understand what was tried to be achieved here. what's being emphasised? it just feels like you started to feel that your streams were becoming too bland (which they are btw) so you just throw this in? it's making for a massive inconsistency in the streams and I'd suggest making this similar to the other 16 note boringness as before. not to mention that 00:59:180 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - is where all the drums are.
01:01:309 (9) - finish here like 01:00:776 (1) - but this time without emphasis!
01:03:970 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,1) - can you PLEASE find a way to make this stand out more above the rest of the part. i mean, the streams i think should increase in spacing and increase even more off of 01:04:502 (9) - due to the pitch reaching an all-time high that wasn't done anywhere else in the song before and due to the extra background noices that are being added up to this particular set of notes. for the sake of representing a song through a map please do something
01:06:896 (1) - i like to believe that this slider shouldnt be visually the same as 01:07:162 (1) - due to the big difference in sound that they emphasise. 01:06:896 (1) - is clearly a different drum beat thats being emphasised as 01:07:162 (1) - which i think you should also be able to figure out. if caring about visuals, then i think this should most definetly change as if visuals were actually important you would differenciate objects accordingly to emphasise the difference in sounds that the song makes.
01:16:209 (7,8,9) - really no care in making this different? heck even stacking would already make a great difference in showing that the music changes here. if i were to play this map without the song itself i would never be able to see that the song is changing any bit at all.
01:39:890 (1,2) - HOLD YOUR HORSES HERE FAM where the Living Hell is my Clickable Objects? ?? ? in all seriousness though, if you really feel like these should be kicksliders there might be something wrong with your headset/speaker/ear pods. the song here clearly has 4 drumbeats played on the 1/4 here but the map doesn't acknowledge them at all by making only half of them clickable. major concern imo
01:51:664 (6,4,5) - chap even for my standards on visuals this just bad
01:55:056 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - ok? so no emphasis on any of the 1/8 played here? like, not even mapping in 1/8 kicksliders to show that you're listening to the song here? also the last 8 notes don't have decreasing spacing while the song is clearly decreasing in intensity? damn time to buy some new audio setup boi cuz it feels like you have none.

"You're rude" is not really relevant when I as a player constantly find maps in the qualified section that looks like they had no effort put into them and were only made for gaining popularity and increasing his ego. This map feels very low quality, as if the mapper didn't give a single attempt to represent the song, but instead gives the impression "oh i mapped it in 1 hour lolxd." Please, try to put some more effort into your mapping and don't make streams that are this bland and boring to play. I haven't managed to finish the map once due to me clicking out of the map because I'm so bored, and I don't ever intend to look back. The map in its current state is a massive inconsistent pile of trash that shows no regard for what xi's song is doing
Enitoni
I'm not really a mapper, so I'm not going to do any modding, as I don't have the experience. I don't expect to not get backlash from this point, but I'm going to be blunt either way as I believe honesty is the best way to go.

I do want to give my word on this situation however and how I feel about the map. The map (top diff) to me feels like a shitty Freedom Dive ripoff, what's funny about it is that it lacks all the fun and creativity that Freedom Dive had. I feel like a lot of the streams, especially the ones near the end don't really represent the song at all, you can hear this intricate melody happening present in the song, but the streams don't really change in spacing, direction or flow to represent it. Overall, I feel the map was rushed to get it ranked as soon as possible, it feels very low quality and not to mention bland and boring.

I also want to address the arrogant vibe you're giving off here, Mr Triangle. There are many valid points that Mir and Naxess came with, but instead of listening to them, you actively act rude and condescending, dismissing the points. "That's too bad" is not a valid argument against a mod point, it's childish and immature. Is it because you think your map is perfect and needs no correction? I got that vibe when you said "I have no intention of fixing what's already great." Because you're a BN, and because everyone looks up to you, there's a cult of people who follow you and actively shut down other people who disagree with you, do you really want people to represent you this way?

Mir and Naxess are not trying to get your map forgotten and deleted, they are trying to improve it. So stop being stubborn and unreasonable and listen to them. Your map falls under the category "barely rankable" otherwise, which is of course the reputation you have gained now.

You should really try and step down a bit Monstrata, nobody likes arrogance.
Syph

HighTec wrote:

aoiuzhfnojklsnhfsek
what made u have an attitude like this lol u don't have to flame people in nearly every sentence and act so condescending for no reason
also a honest question can u even play a map like this because i think "i haven't even managed to finish the map once because it's boring" is kinda irrelevant when you can't even actually pass it

just a personal comment from taking a quick look at the map myself: i think the 1/3 section could've been a bit more interesting by changing direction or spacing or whatever on the stronger notes like 01:16:209 (7,8,9,1) - 01:16:741 (1,2,3,4) - 01:17:273 (7,8,9,1) - etc
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