[Rule to Guidelines] Sample Hitsounding

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Cherry Blossom
I don't know if it was already said but, it could be better if you write something to discourage mappers from using this "technique", like it was said for slidertick hitsounds. If only this rule moves to Guidelines.

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
Makeli

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/357996
05:06:291 (1) - Does this not make sense?
UndeadCapulet

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
Sliderslide hitsounding would be great for 1/3 stuff.In the lower-to-medium difficulties of songs like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/628159, where sliderticks can't cover everything.

Full support of getting this rule taken out.
Cherry Blossom

Maakkeli wrote:

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/357996
05:06:291 (1) - Does this not make sense?
The slidertick is hitsounded, not the sliderslide ? so at least it makes sense...

UndeadCapulet wrote:

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
Sliderslide hitsounding would be great for 1/3 stuff.In the lower-to-medium difficulties of songs like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/628159, where sliderticks can't cover everything.
Most important beats are not on 1/3 on this map, so I guess hitsounds on sliderticks are fine, don't you think ?
Too many mappers want to use 41534151 hitsounds on their map because"holy firetruck yes i know how to use 1251312 hitsounds on my maps to show that i'm pro and creative.", when the whole song is ruined by too many extra "artificial" things, i didn't say using a lot of hitsound is bad, it's just using them sparingly.
The easiest diffs just follow the most important beats. It will be a very bad idea to try to hitsound what you can hear on 1/3 or 1/4 ticks on easiest diffs.
UndeadCapulet
I was mostly talking about parts like 03:04:583 (5) - on the advanced diff, where the loud drum beats get skipped over. But anyway, I was really just bringing up that a lot of songs mix 1/3 drums in to songs that are mostly 1/2, so you can't use sliderticks; I just picked the first song I thought of as an example.
Nerova Riuz GX
This is what Lust wrote in the rule discussion thread:
Easy ways to fix it
  1. Change the sliders into circles
  2. Reduce the slider's length and use a repeat where the hitsound should be
  3. Set the slidertick rate accordingly
  4. Storyboard the hitsounds
Considering about the differences between circles and sliders, you can't change all of the sliders into circles, because circle is not a HOLD object, and not all of the cases can be dealed with clicks, like drums behind long vocals.
Repeat won't work too when the sound is not in the middle of the slider.

People now use slider tick rate 1 mostly because slider ticks in high density is quite "annoying", if you want to cover everything by slider ticks, lots of them will be unnecessary.

And the last one, using storyboard hitsounds. It looks like a good idea, but the sample will still be played even when you didn't catch the object.

I agree that there are a lot of cases can be easily dealed with simple replacements, but exceptions shouldn't be ignored. They still can be used properly if the mapper know how to.

maybe the new guideline can be written with this line:
Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should be better in continuous sounds which can be looped by itself.
But this is definitely not a good one, and I can't get a better explanation of this. (and with better grammar, of course)
Whatever, I really hope this can be pushed forward for more different things from mappers' creativity.
Kibbleru

Cherry Blossom wrote:

UndeadCapulet wrote:

Sliderslide hitsounding would be great for 1/3 stuff.In the lower-to-medium difficulties of songs like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/628159, where sliderticks can't cover everything.
Most important beats are not on 1/3 on this map, so I guess hitsounds on sliderticks are fine, don't you think ?
Too many mappers want to use 41534151 hitsounds on their map because"holy firetruck yes i know how to use 1251312 hitsounds on my maps to show that i'm pro and creative.", when the whole song is ruined by too many extra "artificial" things, i didn't say using a lot of hitsound is bad, it's just using them sparingly.
The easiest diffs just follow the most important beats. It will be a very bad idea to try to hitsound what you can hear on 1/3 or 1/4 ticks on easiest diffs.
the way that sliderticks works is that it bases off where you START the slider. so if it's a 1/3 map and you start the slider on a 1/3 tick then it will miss the white tick.

im aware you can say. "why the hell would you start sliders on 1/3 tick instead of the white"
you can't deny the fact that alot of people already do this to 'map vocal'

don't get me wrong, i dislike starting sliders on 1/3 ticks as well but, just pointing out facts.
Cherry Blossom

Kibbleru wrote:

im aware you can say. "why the hell would you start sliders on 1/3 tick instead of the white"
you can't deny the fact that alot of people already do this to 'map vocal'

don't get me wrong, i dislike starting sliders on 1/3 ticks as well but, just pointing out facts.
Charles could say something like,"follow the right polarity !".
In my opinion, i don't really like to start a slider on something else than a 1/1 or 1/2 tick on easiest diffs, but sometimes the song is different and you must use 1/3 or 1/6 ticks.
Myxo
The discussion is going a bit off-topic now. We found out that slidertick hitsounds could be used for two things:
- instead of slidertick hitsounds if the slider tick rate just doesn't cover the beat, for example if snap changes to 1/3 or the other way around
- rare: to create the effect of a drumroll during a longer slider, as seen in fanzhen's Seraphim map for example
The question is now if everybody can agree that sliderslide hitsounds make sense in these cases, because if there are exceptions to the current rule the rule should definitely be moved to guidelines for now. It would still be enforced for most maps that use those sounds, if there would be a better way to do so.
Mao
I'm fine with that.
Myxo
By the way, the wording of the rule should be adjusted if it were to be a guideline. The current wording sounds too forceful.

Suggestion:

Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should not be used in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Any section of a held object should not be altered to play a single hitsound.
Nerova Riuz GX

Desperate-kun wrote:

By the way, the wording of the rule should be adjusted if it were to be a guideline. The current wording sounds too forceful.

Suggestion:

Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should not be used in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Any section of a held object should not be altered to play a single hitsound.
maybe that's not really important, but i think people just forget about spinner ends (if that does count as a thing)

and i think that wording can be slightly fixed like this......?
Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should not be used in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, slider repeat, or spinner end. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files should play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Any section of a held object should not be altered to play a single hitsound.
Myxo
What about screwing this long enumeration all together?

Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should not be used in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a single hitobject. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files should play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Any section of a held object should not be altered to play a single hitsound.
Endaris
I wouldn't consider anything aside from sliderstart and circles as a real "hitobject" as I don't have to actively hit the other stuff.
I think "single hitobject" is more ambiguous and even though "circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, slider repeat, or spinner end" is quite a long rat-tail, it excludes any kind of (mis)interpretation of what a hitobject is(or singular hitsound or whatever you might want to use to replace it).
Nerova Riuz GX
Another example of sliderslide hitsounding: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/83560

there are two specific parts: 00:30:464 - to 00:40:064 - , and 02:27:035 - to 02:36:635 - .


green lines are placed for switching the samples.
in this case we can see that sliderslide hitsounding is possible, and it can fit music as well.
and they won't play if you didn't click them, that make sense on gameplay too.
Garven
My personal objection to something like this is that you have no visual cue to show that this kind of hitsound is showing up. It's why a lot of people object to storyboard hitsounds as well. If this could be more leaning towards having a bias towards using slider tick sounds if possible (ala using the proper tick rate) and only use this technique in extenuating circumstances I would give support for that.

That said, if this is going forward you need to be careful when these sounds are used in the lower level difficulties. I recall when these had a small surge in popularity people didn't bother QCing their lower level difficulties and the looping hitsound would go off again incorrectly on longer sliders which resulted in a lot of unranks.
Nerova Riuz GX

Garven wrote:

My personal objection to something like this is that you have no visual cue to show that this kind of hitsound is showing up. It's why a lot of people object to storyboard hitsounds as well. If this could be more leaning towards having a bias towards using slider tick sounds if possible (ala using the proper tick rate) and only use this technique in extenuating circumstances I would give support for that.

That said, if this is going forward you need to be careful when these sounds are used in the lower level difficulties. I recall when these had a small surge in popularity people didn't bother QCing their lower level difficulties and the looping hitsound would go off again incorrectly on longer sliders which resulted in a lot of unranks.
What if we add something like "you should use slidertick hitsounds as possible as you can before you start to use sliderslides blablabla"

and also personally i think it's not necessary to make every diffs all hitsounded in the same way
lower diffs have less objects and can't afford that much hitsounds at the same time (like the map i posted above)
so i think it's better to make them just "hitsounded correctly without any problems"
Myxo
With the change of how the Ranking Criteria Subforum works from now on, topics like these are obsolete.
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