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4k Players can't gain PP. So here is my solution for this.

posted
Total Posts
77
-Hanatan
8 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
-Hanatan
Hello everyone!
Many of you guys know that osu!mania PP system sucks.
Because, for getting higher ranks, you have to be a 7k player. :( 4k players usually stuck at 5-6k pp because there is no ranked map above 7 stars. I think QAT's should rank more 4k maps with higher stars and mappers map too. Besides ranking higher star maps, mods dt can also multiply the pp you gain from a map, like the old good days. :D

We,
4k players want to get higher ranks!

What do you think about this guys, let me know!
lemonguy
548 posts
Joined July 2014
lemonguy
4k is bad
bakadam
7 posts
Joined June 2013
bakadam
7k is bad
Last edited by bakadam , edited 2 times in total.
Pope Gadget
osu! Alumni
328 posts
Joined January 2013
Pope Gadget
Try ranking more hard 4k maps.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Gekido- wrote:

4k is bad
post of the year
-Squishy
58 posts
Joined May 2014
-Squishy
Learn 7k, problem solved.
you can't be in top rank without 4k either
bakadam
7 posts
Joined June 2013
bakadam

Pope Gadget wrote:

Try ranking more hard 4k maps.
man there is no 6+star map for 4 key. can you understund what he means?
spoonguy
261 posts
Joined June 2011
spoonguy
★OK★
lemonguy
548 posts
Joined July 2014
lemonguy

Pope Gadget wrote:

Try ranking more hard 4k maps.
A Medic
460 posts
Joined May 2013
A Medic
Because people want to map for 7K.

Very few good mania mappers map for 4K consistently.

Learn 7k to gain pp.

Go back to 4K after you got the rank you want.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Oh and btw, there's an unwritten rule in the community that unless there are special circumstances, you do not ask/request/tell anyone to map something just because you like/want it. If you want something ranked, go map it and then get that map ranked. Until then I would refrain from making pointless threads like this one.
Hestia-
271 posts
Joined June 2010
Hestia-
Thanks for your idea -Hanatan.

As a 1K, 2K, 3K and 10K player I too am disappointed at the lack of hard ranked maps for my preferred keymodes.
bakadam
7 posts
Joined June 2013
bakadam
I think if there is an 4k tournament there should be enough 4k maps to get top rank
akuma123
308 posts
Joined June 2011
akuma123
Stop playing for PP, that works too :)
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

bakadam wrote:

I think if there is an 4k tournament there should be enough 4k maps to get top rank
The Point Does Not Exist
juankristal
osu! Alumni
1,408 posts
Joined August 2010
juankristal
The bully to 4k is so real...

Just dont play for rank man, rank doesnt mean anything. We dont really need a solution for that because noone cares about the rank in 4k.
-Hanatan
8 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
-Hanatan
Wow, most of you just focused the rank harder maps section, but i also wrote there something about mods too. Please dont come and write here if you going to write "YOU go map higher star pp maps." Could you just try to think and write something about how can we solve this star rating and pp problem in 4k?
Shoegazer
osu!mania Paragon
528 posts
Joined April 2013
Shoegazer
I make hard 4K maps - probably the most out of anyone aside from Fullerene-. Some of them are probably viable for rank but I don't want to rank them because they're shit.

Hard 4K maps that are enjoyable are just hard to come by because song choice and other things. I'd much rather have one or two difficult (as in as hard as AiAe) maps that are super enjoyable to play rather than twenty of them that are garbage. All of the hard maps (HAELEQUIN and harder) that are ranked range from okay to horrendous. People just enjoy creating charts of a reasonable difficulty far more than ones with X icons. I think it's reasonable because lighter layering creates more liberty and fluency compared to overlayered/overdone charts.

Most "hard" maps aren't even rated as high as they should because of the poorly done star rating system which emphasises so much more on max NPS more than anything else. By nature 7K maps will be generally overrated compared to 4K maps because of max NPS and chart structure overall. This is because they're using a difficulty system that encompasses all modes, where it should be a difficulty scale for separate keymodes. Even if there are hard 4K ranked maps (as in as hard as AiAe) they won't be anywhere as close to the star rating AiAe has because AiAe is insanely overrated (should be ~6.2-6.3).

Regarding mods, it takes some time. The idea of DT giving additional PP has been thrown around myriads of times and is taken into consideration for at least a year now. HR won't give any additional PP because at the moment the star rating system isn't affected by OD, which is dumb.
Ayaya
366 posts
Joined August 2013
Ayaya
I mainly play 4k but still can play 7k, who cares about 4k pp, just play for fun :P
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Hanatan now you're one of those pepole who think they're revolutionary with their ideas about star rating and things. Let me tell you this: apart from Shoegazer's post, everyone in this community has said something about star rating being bad for the past 1,5 year. We have argued about and presented thousands of diffrent solution throughut the time. You need to realize that everything you said, has been said numerous times and means absolutely nothing because we aren't getting any changes soon (source: https://m.ask.fm/Tom94/answers/133131856078).
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
Last 1.5 years? I'll have you know it's been bad since day 1. It was completely and utterly broken before, and all they did was tweak it so it gave reasonable numbers now, if still wildly inaccurate at times.
Tidek
1,571 posts
Joined March 2011
Tidek

Squishykorean wrote:

Learn 7k, problem solved.
you can't be in top rank without 4k either
Actually, you can be easily in top rank without playing a single 4k map.


As people said here, 4k maps are getting sometimes massively underrated, where 7k maps are getting sometimes massively overrated, thats why around 75% of maximum pp is from 7k.

DT wont change anything, just imagine ET players playing overrated 7k maps with DT, they will farm a lot more than 4k DT players.

And I agree with Shoegzaer, OD should affect pp.
lim38
249 posts
Joined June 2013
lim38
Or don't care about rank like me and just take pleasure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hinpoppo
184 posts
Joined February 2015
Hinpoppo
The only way I can feel justified in being competitive is not by ranking, but by getting better. Tbh I'd be happy if the ranking system was deleted, but being a MMORPG player, I like seeing my numbers go up, so.....

I think Dan ranking should be official, and not PP farming in a faulty system.
Bad Apple
308 posts
Joined April 2014
Bad Apple
It might sound stupid, but seperated rankings for 4k and 7k would be a great solution.
You would have 3 Tabs in your profile, one with your 4k pp (+rank), one with your 7k pp (+rank) and one with your total pp and rank, which would be the one you currently have.

Should be too much of an issue to code something like this either and would greatly enhance the ranking-experience for 4k only players like me

using that way, you would have a 4k #1 and a 7k #1 (and a combined one, obviously)
example, #1 in 4k would have a total of 7500pp, that way you know, that 7.5k is the maximum amount of pp you can get from 4k, as a result it feels better for 4k players with 6-6.5k pp.
Todestrieb
305 posts
Joined February 2014
Todestrieb

- Bad Apple - wrote:

It might sound stupid, but seperated rankings for 4k and 7k would be a great solution.
You would have 3 Tabs in your profile, one with your 4k pp (+rank), one with your 7k pp (+rank) and one with your total pp and rank, which would be the one you currently have.
And 5, 6, 8, 9 and (hopefully) 10K? It will just kill "anti-meta" keys.
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,042 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum

juankristal wrote:

The bully to 4k is so real...

Just dont play for rank man, rank doesnt mean anything. We dont really need a solution for that because noone cares about the rank in 4k.
I agree with Juan :3
What the Hell does Rank in Mania mean. Nothing in my Eyes just because all these Keymodes.
And i heard ppl who play just 4 Fun have.. more Fun, but thats a secret!

Also Apples solution wouldn't be that bad but it would be still have QQ and Haters overall

I don't really see a good solution for everone :/
But why don't learn other Keymodes? 5-9k can also be fun! And once you know how to play also the problem with the pp
Is solved!

So i say: Give the other Keymodes a try. And i don't mean play 3 songs and give up. You haven't learn 4K in just one Day so the other Keymodes need some time.
Try it, learn it! :3

But i also Agree with Tidek. 7K is hard overrated in my Eyes, but maybe i'm wrong because i don't really can play High 7K diffs :D

Waaah thats such a problem.. xd
Elementaires
658 posts
Joined January 2013
Elementaires

Feerum wrote:

But i also Agree with Tidek. 7K is hard overrated in my Eyes, but maybe i'm wrong because i don't really can play High 7K diffs :D
Funny to read this because most 4K players dont want to learn 7K because or the spacebar ;^)
I dont think its overrated but 4K underrated, just take the example of the Imperishable night

The thread is pointless anyway
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

Elementaires wrote:

Feerum wrote:

But i also Agree with Tidek. 7K is hard overrated in my Eyes, but maybe i'm wrong because i don't really can play High 7K diffs :D
Funny to read this because most 4K players dont want to learn 7K because or the spacebar ;^)
I dont think its overrated but 4K underrated, just take the example of the Imperishable night

The thread is pointless anyway
There IS a difference between 4k and 7k in star rating, for example, a 10 star 7k map is still playable for top tier 7k players, but a 10 star 4k map is outright unplayable.

But yes, this thread is pointless because not only is a new star rating system in development, complaining on the forum has done absolutely nothing to fix the problems in mania.

The real issue is that while pretty much everyone is aware of the problems, nobody can agree on exactly how to fix them, and the staff are mostly unwilling to even listen to the community anyway.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Bobbias wrote:

Last 1.5 years? I'll have you know it's been bad since day 1. It was completely and utterly broken before, and all they did was tweak it so it gave reasonable numbers now, if still wildly inaccurate at times.
Rough estimate of ppv2 lifespan, cba anyway
Cuppp
113 posts
Joined February 2013
Cuppp
4k? Play stepmania
7k? Play lr2 or o2jam

There you can get a real sense of how shit you really are at rhythm games from playing osu and that rank doesn't matter.
Tidek
1,571 posts
Joined March 2011
Tidek

Cuppp wrote:

4k? Play stepmania
7k? Play lr2 or o2jam

There you can get a real sense of how shit you really are at rhythm games from playing osu and that rank doesn't matter.
What? If you are good at 4k here, you will be on the same level at 4k in stepmania, same in 7k here and LR2. Rank here doesnt matter because unfortunately its not seperated by keymodes.
Last edited by Tidek , edited 2 times in total.
Hinpoppo
184 posts
Joined February 2015
Hinpoppo

Cuppp wrote:

4k? Play stepmania
7k? Play lr2 or o2jam

There you can get a real sense of how shit you really are at rhythm games from playing osu and that rank doesn't matter.
That's accurate :v
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

Tidek wrote:

Cuppp wrote:

4k? Play stepmania
7k? Play lr2 or o2jam

There you can get a real sense of how shit you really are at rhythm games from playing osu and that rank doesn't matter.
What? If you are good at 4k here, you will be on the same level at 4k in stepmania, same in 7k here and LR2. Rank here doesnt matter because unfortunately its not seperated by keymodes.
Except you won't be coddled by the ranking system where the majority of actually hard maps never get ranked.
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,042 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum
I don't know how O2Jam or LR2 is because i never play it.

But i have play for a while Stepmania and isn't Stepmania just like Osu!Mania with OD0? :/

Don't know but thats how it feels for me
akuma123
308 posts
Joined June 2011
akuma123
Osu!Mania (4k) is like Stepmania with judge 5.5 or maybe 6, and getting an AA on stepmania is like getting 900k (maybe a bit less) on Osu!Mania

Ohh, and the LNs stuff xD
Hinpoppo
184 posts
Joined February 2015
Hinpoppo

akuma123 wrote:

Osu!Mania (4k) is like Stepmania with judge 5.5 or maybe 6, and getting an AA on stepmania is like getting 900k (maybe a bit less) on Osu!Mania

Ohh, and the LNs stuff xD
If you play for accuracy, sure.

But the judgement between the equivalents for 200, 100, 50 and a miss are MUCH MUCH tighter; the only thing that is easier is the Marvelous count. Getting a SDP in SM is MUCH easier than O!M, but an SDG on SM is much less forgiving than one on O!M, at least from the statistics I've seen.

Playing maps to clear them / get an A on them / Hard clear is much less forgiving on SM than O!M, and that is, I am willing to bet on, a fact. Get some statistical nut to confirm that or something please.
BilliumMoto
osu!mixer II
190 posts
Joined January 2014
BilliumMoto
i love it when people think clearing maps is a thing in o!m or sm
feesh-
feesh-
If only I wanted to get more pp by 4k, I would definitely say "let your dreams be dreams" because of the system, 7k is another way to gain more pp, and not to mention that 5 stars map usually gives 300+ pp which is already good enough for me. Well, I do admit I fight for ranking, nut after reaching top 1500, I felt it's meaningless to continue playing, but I chose to play for fun.

An advice, want to get higher rank? Go practice some 7k and get a fresh new start from 7k and it's like how you start on 4 key. :)
-Hanatan
8 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
-Hanatan
I totally agree with bad apple but i think the dev's are too busy to do a ranking system like that. I want to play for rank/pp, so i think starting to play 7k would be the best solution for now :?
bakadam
7 posts
Joined June 2013
bakadam

- Bad Apple - wrote:

It might sound stupid, but seperated rankings for 4k and 7k would be a great solution.
You would have 3 Tabs in your profile, one with your 4k pp (+rank), one with your 7k pp (+rank) and one with your total pp and rank, which would be the one you currently have.

Should be too much of an issue to code something like this either and would greatly enhance the ranking-experience for 4k only players like me

using that way, you would have a 4k #1 and a 7k #1 (and a combined one, obviously)
example, #1 in 4k would have a total of 7500pp, that way you know, that 7.5k is the maximum amount of pp you can get from 4k, as a result it feels better for 4k players with 6-6.5k pp.
:)
very nice idea i thnk
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
To be considered the best mania player in the world you need to be proficient at all keymodes. That's what it should be like at least but we lack 5/6/8/9k maps. So until we get more pp maps in those keymodes 7k will be biased. Doing key specific rankings is a good idea, but it should be a secondary ranking (all keymode ranking should still be the main one) and will not happen because that would take too much time imho. Maybe someone could code a third-party site that can calculate those.
bakadam
7 posts
Joined June 2013
bakadam

-Kamikaze- wrote:

To be considered the best mania player in the world you need to be proficient at all keymodes. That's what it should be like at least but we lack 5/6/8/9k maps. So until we get more pp maps in those keymodes 7k will be biased. Doing key specific rankings is a good idea, but it should be a secondary ranking (all keymode ranking should still be the main one) and will not happen because that would take too much time imho. Maybe someone could code a third-party site that can calculate those.

rank 1 mania player is not best at 4k in the world .... he's best at just 7k. learning 7k is enough to reach rank 1 at mania ;)
Evening
2,464 posts
Joined December 2012
Evening

bakadam wrote:

-Kamikaze- wrote:

To be considered the best mania player in the world you need to be proficient at all keymodes. That's what it should be like at least but we lack 5/6/8/9k maps. So until we get more pp maps in those keymodes 7k will be biased. Doing key specific rankings is a good idea, but it should be a secondary ranking (all keymode ranking should still be the main one) and will not happen because that would take too much time imho. Maybe someone could code a third-party site that can calculate those.

rank 1 mania player is not best at 4k in the world .... he's best at just 7k. learning 7k is enough to reach rank 1 at mania ;)
To be considered the best mania player in the world
best mania player in the world
in the world
the world
world
worl
wo
_underjoy
704 posts
Joined January 2013
_underjoy
The Star Rating system should look more at density per column as well as the length of the densest part, instead of just plain nps. Then 4k maps would be rated higher and give more pp.
Nuff said.
Hinpoppo
184 posts
Joined February 2015
Hinpoppo

_underjoy wrote:

The Star Rating system should look more at density per column as well as the length of the densest part, instead of just plain nps. Then 4k maps would be rated higher and give more pp.
Nuff said.
ty sir
Sewing Machine(??)

BilliumMoto wrote:

i love it when people think clearing maps is a thing in o!m or sm
I can't clear half of Fullerene Shift on HP 4....
: (((((((((
How to mash like pro?
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

BilliumMoto wrote:

i love it when people think clearing maps is a thing in o!m or sm
I love when people think there's a right way to judge achievements.

If you cleared a song you couldn't in the past, that's an achievement, period. Just like beating a personal best is an achievement, or any other goal you might set for yourself.

The star rating system and PP system are never going to be perfect, ever. Even if 95% of the community agrees that it's good enough, someone out there will disagree.

If you play for PP, get used to having to farm songs that are worth more PP. when we finally have a large selection of extremely difficult maps, get used to farming whichever ones are easier to get PP on, because even if the system improves, there will always be maps that are easier for certain players to get good PP from compared to others of the same difficulty level.
[Crz]Player
228 posts
Joined September 2011
[Crz]Player
here's the ultimate solution : delete osu and play other games
puxtu
2,926 posts
Joined August 2013
puxtu

[-] wrote:

here's the ultimate solution : delete osu and play other games
goddamn nigga

btw if you want pp, help me rank this shit https://osu.ppy.sh/s/342245
[Crz]Player
228 posts
Joined September 2011
[Crz]Player
ppuxtu
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