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Poll 26: Should we remove scoreboards from qualified maps?

posted
Total Posts
118

Should we remove scoreboards from qualified beatmaps?

Yes
334
12.16%
No
634
23.08%
Keep them but don't reward performance points until ranked
1779
64.76%
Total votes: 2747
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy
The intention of having scoreboards on qualified maps was to allow players to play the maps and then report back issues they found with it, but after several months of testing, the only result of having scoreboards on these maps is huge drama and complaints from players who lose their scores when a map is disqualified. Internally we are considering removing scoreboards to avoid the backlash when a map is disqualified to improve the quality of life for everyone.

What do you guys think? Reply with feedback if you have more to say than just a poll choice.

TO BE CLEAR: Qualified is the state a map is in for 7 days before being ranked, during which it can be disqualified should any issues be found.
Imperf3kt
75 posts
Joined December 2012
Imperf3kt
Nice, I see. I'd like to see them stay until the map is ranked.
Perhaps a message stating "your score won't count until this map is officially ranked" or something.
Graf
25 posts
Joined May 2014
Graf
There should be a clearer indication in-game if the map is qualified or ranked imo.
[Animeniac]
10 posts
Joined July 2014
[Animeniac]
It's still nice to see who the top players for that beatmap are.. regardless of it is ranked or not. I say keep it and just don't award the player until it's approved.
Xilver15
Former osu! Champion: 2015
514 posts
Joined August 2013
Xilver15
3rd option seems very much ideal and a nice compromise.
Nekonyan
305 posts
Joined October 2013
Nekonyan
at least I hope it has different icon with ranked maps so people could see the difference
EDIT: I think 3rd choice is the best choice I could choose considering much drama on dq maps
Last edited by Nekonyan , edited 1 time in total.
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu
yes having a scoreboard is good and bad, bad, because players got pissed off when they lose their pp, but at the same time by not having a scoreboard probably no one will try those maps and the qualified section will not work as intended to be. Probably keeping the scoreboard, but not giving pp is the better idea.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy
Players who try the map generally don't report issues with it. It's the actual QAT that do the checking.
Rifdi
79 posts
Joined August 2014
Rifdi
Since its only qualified, it could always be DQ'd if something seems amiss, so i guess it would be wise to not reward the players with pp in a qualified map since its still in the phase of "Check and Recheck". But i think keeping the scoreboard would keep the competition up to motivate the players to play more. Keeping the scoreboard could also be a way to give the mappers an idea of how the map really plays, since you can see the replays (right?) of top 50 plays, which is basically filled with skilled and experienced players.

So thats how i see it, i could be wrong though :v
YatsuKaori
YatsuKaori
If the maps got DQ, don't wipe that scores because some player don't like to retry/play same map.

Edit : I Think For Qualify Maps set for another icon, don't use the love icon
Last edited by YatsuKaori , edited 1 time in total.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy

Lina Sintyadewi wrote:

If the maps got DQ, don't wipe that scores because some player don't like to retry/play same map.
I think you're missing the point. The maps CHANGE after getting disqualified, which makes any scores set incorrect.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
I agree it either should be removed completely or there should be the warning, like: "7 days remaining till permanent qualification" or something, which would count like that. That would maybe prevent disqualified maps from terrible ratings - I remember there were maps with almost 10 score, but after disqualification, they got many of insensible 1 stars. Not like that score determines anything, but players just don't often realize that it's not mapper's fault, when warning is given, but they are only warned if they enter qualified section, if someone sends them the song directly, they might not know their scores may be removed.

Just throwing my 2 cents here.

//Also I firstly had a little heart attack when I read: "Should we remove STORYBOARDS from qualified maps?" xDD
Last edited by Wafu , edited 1 time in total.
bahamete
54 posts
Joined July 2011
bahamete

Graf wrote:

There should be a clearer indication in-game if the map is qualified or ranked imo.
Absolutely this. When somebody links you a map and you download it via osu!direct, there's seemingly no way of being able to tell whether it is qualified or not; perhaps a new icon for qualified maps would be sufficient. Either way, I voted for qualified maps not giving pp - as Xilver said, I'd agree that it is the best compromise. People seem unable to handle disqualifications for maps in which they or others have gained pp from (myself being guilty of that on a few occasions), despite the fact that that is far from the reason for the qualified section.
Last edited by bahamete , edited 1 time in total.
Bauxe
1,624 posts
Joined August 2012
Bauxe
I can see an influx in people complaining about not receiving PP with the third option, however I feel it's probably the most appropriate.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
I can recall there being a F-req on giving qualified maps a enw symbol, like a moon, a heart with a nuke, or a blue heart
I think that should be good enough though
However, to avoid drama, as that will happen because many people are ignorant, 3rd option is byfar the best there is
Kyujuroku 96
246 posts
Joined August 2010
Kyujuroku 96
No pp untill ranked will be the best option. pp is the source of all dramas after all. Besides most people tend to wait until they get ranked so they dont lose pp.
qwr
111 posts
Joined August 2013
qwr
3rd option is clearly the best
Also an unavoidable warning that says "this map can be disqualified at any time" should be included
Euny
2,274 posts
Joined January 2014
Euny
i agree with this. when dq some map, it gives feels 'lost' to players also mappers. so i think, we should remove scoreboard from qualified map.
then we will get better feelings more than now when map's dq.
puxtu
2,926 posts
Joined August 2013
puxtu

qwr wrote:

3rd option is clearly the best
Also an unavoidable warning that says "this map can be disqualified at any time" should be included
pretty much this.
It feels really hurts when losing a pp
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
I feel like dumb fucks will complain double about "not getting pp from X map" if the pp is removed. Remove the score board and I'll be far less inclined to test a map. I like it how it is, a few comments in map threads is worth the additional play testing.
Last edited by jesse1412 , edited 1 time in total.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy

jesus1412 wrote:

I feel like dumb fucks will complain double about "not getting pp from X map" if the pp is removed.
I completely agree.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Illiterate and ignorant people will always complain
No matter what
A message saying You'll get no pp from this map should be fine
As long as it covers the whole screen
For 5 seconds
In multiple colors
Comet
82 posts
Joined June 2014
Comet

peppy wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

I feel like dumb fucks will complain double about "not getting pp from X map" if the pp is removed.
I completely agree.
Am I one of the rare breeds of players left that really doesn't give two shits about this? Just saying.

EDIT: "This map is in qualified status, qualified maps will only give Performance Points after the map is fully ranked!" <-- This message seems fairly satisfactory
Last edited by Comet , edited 2 times in total.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
What about cases where the map doesn't change? Say it was a metadata issue, which has no effect on actual gameplay?

Regardless... if the scoreboard were removed there would no longer be any incentive to play the maps before they were ranked. People usually play maps in qualified to secure top/#1 ranks on the lower diffs (mapsets with no spinners are especially prone to this) or to get pp. I think the third option is the most ideal because people will get to keep their scores/pp if the map passes qualified.

At the same time, however, if you were to implement this, pp gain needs to be hidden from players somehow, otherwise even if a map does not immediately reward a player pp, they will still assume they have obtain those pp, and this would still create drama should a map get disqualified because players will be "expecting a top play". Basically at the end of the day, if a map is dq'ed, you are still going to get people saying "rip my 300 pp score etc etc" even if they never actually got it added onto their Top Plays (yet). I doubt this can be fully avoided, because players can always estimate about how much pp they would have received...
azer467
379 posts
Joined August 2014
azer467
Maybe something like remove pp but keep scoreboard or remove scoreboard but keep pp

For now, I think just adding a panel at the top of the scoreboard ingame to warn players is fine, because the main problem for them complaining about is that we can't recognize ranked/qualified maps in-game because they both are marked with a heart
qwr
111 posts
Joined August 2013
qwr

monstrata wrote:

At the same time, however, if you were to implement this, pp gain needs to be hidden from players somehow, otherwise even if a map does not immediately reward a player pp, they will still assume they have obtain those pp, and this would still create drama should a map get disqualified because players will be "expecting a top play". Basically at the end of the day, if a map is dq'ed, you are still going to get people saying "rip my 300 pp score etc etc" even if they never actually got it added onto their Top Plays (yet). I doubt this can be fully avoided, because players can always estimate about how much pp they would have received...
I was thinking the same thing
To put it in different terms, qualified scores should not be "gambles", or "this score has a chance of giving me pp"

If you want to cut down drama, remove pp from qualified maps, so it's only about the leaderboard or score
Fullerene-
550 posts
Joined April 2013
Fullerene-

peppy wrote:

Players who try the map generally don't report issues with it. It's the actual QAT that do the checking.
One reason this may happen is because some may see a person pointing out issues in a qualified map as a malicious act, either against the mapper or BNs involved.

It's stupid, but sometimes I see that modding maps post-qualification is discouraged (whether passively or aggressively) and those who do are told that doing so should be left solely to the QAT.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
I agree with this. In fact I was considering making a thread myself. There is no reason to have qualified maps give pp; if they do, yes more people will play it, but they'll only be playing it for the pp. If they don't give pp, the people who play the map will be much more likely to be doing so to actually test the map, which is the purpose of the system. If you let them have a scoreboard, you will run into a similar problem of people complaining when people didn't get pp from FCing the map as indicated by the scoreboard.
I also think that when map is ranked it should have gone through thorough testing, and only rarely should it have to be recalled due to a previously undetected issue. I shouldn't be the norm. The yoyoing of maps in and out of a ranked state, especially of popular ones that have the community's attention (like Toumei Elegy), just make the mapping team look unprofessional, whatever the case may be.
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn
SPOILER

To be honest, most of the problems and bitching come from the maps getting DQ'd themselves, not the actual PP loss (though I won't deny there are problems on this end as well sometimes)

That third option is completely stupid though. "hiding" pp isn't going to solve any of the problems. monstrata pretty much sums everything up. People will always complain, even if they don't have a specific number to look at.

One thing I'm going to mention though, is that if scores/pp get disabled, then map ratings should be as well.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
In my opinion - keep them but don't reward performance points for score.

Personaly scoreboard is fun and allows to compete with others, check scores and approximately amount of points what you need IF map get's ranked (i know it's not ppv1 anymore but there are still people who like to fight over #1 just for fun).
Qualified maps should not be rewarded at all becouse in case of DQ it creates only sad/toxic spam in map topic.
Yuudachi-kun
5,435 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

peppy wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

I feel like dumb fucks will complain double about "not getting pp from X map" if the pp is removed.
I completely agree.
But this is better than more drama from loss after a DQ, yes?
qwr
111 posts
Joined August 2013
qwr

Lanturn wrote:

SPOILER

To be honest, most of the problems and bitching come from the maps getting DQ'd themselves, not the actual PP loss (though I won't deny there are problems on this end as well sometimes)

That third option is completely stupid though. "hiding" pp isn't going to solve any of the problems. monstrata pretty much sums everything up. People will always complain, even if they don't have a specific number to look at.

One thing I'm going to mention though, is that if scores/pp get disabled, then map ratings should be as well.
The third option is actually ambiguous - it doesn't specify [in qualification] if pp rewarding will be delayed or not considered at all
Last edited by qwr , edited 1 time in total.
Yuudachi-kun
5,435 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
It actually does to me. "Don't reward until ranked"
Cerulean Veyron
2,090 posts
Joined August 2012
Cerulean Veyron
tl;dr,
Why do we need to keep the scoreboard that players can't even earn any pp or w/e from it anyway? I feel that some players would start establishing new dramas than the old ones, and other shtstorms.

Uhh, I know it's only for some testplays or sth else. But IMFO, It's best we remove the scoreboards.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
I think a combination of option 3 and having a new icon to indicate a map is only in the qualified state ingame would be the ideal solution, personally. I'm still surprised there's no ingame distinction between Qualified and Ranked, and that is probably the source of a good deal of drama.
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn

qwr wrote:

The third option is actually ambiguous - it doesn't specify [in qualification] if pp rewarding will be delayed or not considered at all
The big problem is if you actually have to play the map again and you can't beat your score (a Tie for example doesn't overwrite it) You're basically screwed forever without earning PP. I don't see how it's possible for the third option to be treated in that manner. It definitely means you'll earn your PP once it moves to ranked. If this was the case, I'd rather have all scores wiped upon ranking.
MrPotato
206 posts
Joined June 2013
MrPotato

peppy wrote:

Lina Sintyadewi wrote:

If the maps got DQ, don't wipe that scores because some player don't like to retry/play same map.
I think you're missing the point. The maps CHANGE after getting disqualified, which makes any scores set incorrect.
Like monstrata mentioned, not all beatmaps change after disqualifications or every map that is included in the mapset does.
As much as the third option is the most ideal option for this poll, I would say there should be a 4th option of making every scoreboard of every map in a mapset to not get deleted as long as the actual map didn't change during the time the mapset got disqualified.
Some diqualifications are not all about the actual map but rather the meta data or just one map out of a full mapset, then, when a mapset gets disqualified due to one or few of the difficulties their scoreboard should not be deleted on maps that didn't change in the mapset during the time the mapset is disqualified.
I should also add that there should be an option for the qats to have two types of disqualifications, the one that disqualifies a map for a flaw on the actual map and therefore would make the scores deleted on that map. And a disqualification for metadatab change that would save the scoreboard of the entire mapset.
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn

MrPotato wrote:

Like monstrata mentioned, not all beatmaps change after disqualifications or every map that is included in the mapset does.
As much as the third option is the most ideal option for this poll, I would say there should be a 4th option of making every scoreboard of every map in a mapset to not get deleted as long as the actual map didn't change during the time the mapset got disqualified.
Some diqualifications are not all about the actual map but rather the meta data or just one map out of a full mapset, then, when a mapset gets disqualified due to one or few of the difficulties their scoreboard should not be deleted on maps that didn't change in the mapset during the time the mapset is disqualified.
As much of a popular opinion this is. With the current system, it will never happen. One small change to the map could completely mess up scores, replays or other things. How do you know the mapper didn't move one object slightly before it got requalified? It isn't worth it. It's better to wipe the scores to avoid any possible problems down the line when relating to scores/replays.
DT-sama
191 posts
Joined October 2013
DT-sama
I would rather have partial disqualifications, where only the diffs that caused the DQ would get score wiped as they're expected to be changed, and metadata/bg "disqualifications" would never happen, if it's something that requires the mapper's intervention just put it in a locked qualified state without wiping any score.
I get that this isn't possible with the current beatmap submission system, but I feel like this poll is solving a non-problem, instead of focusing on (some of the) WHY people hate disqualifications so much:
- A disqualification and subsequent score wipe can happen on a diff you haven't even played, on a gamemode you don't even know exists.
- Maps that give pp nomod/HR have a high star difficulty and are usually pretty long = more diffs, longer diffs = more possible points of failure = more disqualifications = Asymmetry.
- Metadata and BG disqualifications are universally considered bullshit. See: MANIERA, rip jhlee's 1234pp score.

Qualified maps should have scoreboards and give pp.
MrPotato
206 posts
Joined June 2013
MrPotato

Lanturn wrote:

MrPotato wrote:

Like monstrata mentioned, not all beatmaps change after disqualifications or every map that is included in the mapset does.
As much as the third option is the most ideal option for this poll, I would say there should be a 4th option of making every scoreboard of every map in a mapset to not get deleted as long as the actual map didn't change during the time the mapset got disqualified.
Some diqualifications are not all about the actual map but rather the meta data or just one map out of a full mapset, then, when a mapset gets disqualified due to one or few of the difficulties their scoreboard should not be deleted on maps that didn't change in the mapset during the time the mapset is disqualified.
As much of a popular opinion this is. With the current system, it will never happen. One small change to the map could completely mess up scores, replays or other things. How do you know the mapper didn't move one object slightly before it got requalified? It isn't worth it. It's better to wipe the scores to avoid any possible problems down the line when relating to scores/replays.
if maps are changed during the disqualification period the specific maps that changed would be needed to be updated, with the current system if a map is not changed in a mapset at all you would not need to update it in order to play its ranked version.
Also every minor change in .osu files is noticed.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
Tbh, I don't see why metadata issues require a disqualification to fix. Can the staff not fix such issues internally? Because it literally takes the mapper like all of 30 seconds to make metadata changes and reupload the map... Can't little things like this be done without the need to DQ?
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn

monstrata wrote:

Tbh, I don't see why metadata issues require a disqualification to fix. Can the staff not fix such issues internally? Because it literally takes the mapper like all of 30 seconds to make metadata changes and reupload the map... Can't little things like this be done without the need to DQ?
when osz2 comes.
Athrun
1,049 posts
Joined December 2013
Athrun
I would want the scoreboards to be at least kept onto the qualified maps. But don't calculate pp until the map finally gets ranked.

^^
Hope it appears!
Accurian
103 posts
Joined May 2014
Accurian
I think that if scores don't get uploaded at all like maps that aren't ranked would eliminate all this drama since people who play those maps would only provide constructive criticism instead of creating a scene after losing performance points due to disqualification.
Straw Hat
41 posts
Joined September 2014
Straw Hat
How will not rewarding pp right away stop any drama at all? If the map is dequalified, the scores set are still lost.
iCakeMan
8 posts
Joined August 2014
iCakeMan

Graf wrote:

There should be a clearer indication in-game if the map is qualified or ranked imo.
This
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

DRRR wrote:

How will not rewarding pp right away stop any drama at all? If the map is dequalified, the scores set are still lost.
I don't think the majority of people see a decent score as something valuable on it's own; rather, the PP it awards. By delaying PP rewards, nobody gets any PP, so nobody has PP to lose if the map gets disqualified.

I think people just get annoyed because their arbitrary number measuring performance has gone down
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
3rd looks the best.

DRRR wrote:

How will not rewarding pp right away stop any drama at all? If the map is dequalified, the scores set are still lost.
When people aren't capable enough to take some seconds to understand what Qualified means then there is no reason to whine about the "loss" of a single score.
Allsiss
12 posts
Joined May 2014
Allsiss
Some have already said it, but I think the issue is more the visability of the ranked status than anything else.

For most maps you don't know when they will be fully ranked or if they already are unless you check on the website and to do that for 10+ maps everyday can be a hassle. I think the only thing that needs to be changed is the icon for qualified maps. Instead of a heart make it a star, a triangle or something like that.

EDIT: Or even better, make the symbol the number of days that map has already been in qualified status.
Serraionga
11,484 posts
Joined November 2014
Serraionga
The solely reason why people don't like doing awesome scores on qualified maps is because they could lose a huge amount of pp in the process in case of DQ, so... there goes my vote on the 3rd option.
Last edited by Serraionga , edited 1 time in total.
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