osu!mania is so fun

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MostDakka

HankSpank wrote:

Well, time to pack bags and go to LR2/o2jam 8-)

Also, it's very strange that there still aren't any ranked songs to satisfy the players that play the hardest ranked songs near perfection, this makes it pretty annoying to rank high for the top-level players. It'd probably make a big difference in rankings if ET songs would get ranked. Difficult song clears>high accuracy
I'm far from being decent but even I can see that we need harder maps cause watching mwc is kinda sad when most maps are unranked.
Kamikaze

HankSpank wrote:

Well, time to pack bags and go to LR2/o2jam 8-)
and/or SM =^)
Blaizer
Alright, so let's imagine one day that a new mod for osu!mania was implemented, called Hard Mode or something. What would we put into this mod? Here's what I'm thinking:

Very slight (1-2 frame long) releases of long notes will be allowed for no score loss, but otherwise a miss will be awarded. A miss will also be awarded if the tap part of a long note is missed. No more 50 points for hitting long notes whenever.

If you keep holding a long note past the end, it will not cut off as it does now and award 100 points. It will go to 50, and then to miss if you continue holding it.

There is a penalty for hitting notes that aren't there. This will count as a miss, and the song will be treated as if it had one extra note. This penalty doesn't apply before the start of all notes, after the end of all notes, or within a 1+ second gap of no notes.

Scoring 100 points on a short or long note will break your combo, but won't deduct hp.

Scoring 50 points on a short or long note will break your combo, and deduct 5/6 (83.3%) of the hp a miss would deduct.

What would you add or remove from this?
Kamikaze
I don't like idea of breaking on 50/100 and I'd make judgement on normal notes harder including rainbow 300's. Then I would only play hard mode
Full Tablet

Blaizer wrote:

Alright, so let's imagine one day that a new mod for osu!mania was implemented, called Hard Mode or something. What would we put into this mod? Here's what I'm thinking:

Very slight (1-2 frame long) releases of long notes will be allowed for no score loss, but otherwise a miss will be awarded. A miss will also be awarded if the tap part of a long note is missed. No more 50 points for hitting long notes whenever.

If you keep holding a long note past the end, it will not cut off as it does now and award 100 points. It will go to 50, and then to miss if you continue holding it.

There is a penalty for hitting notes that aren't there. This will count as a miss, and the song will be treated as if it had one extra note. This penalty doesn't apply before the start of all notes, after the end of all notes, or within a 1+ second gap of no notes.

Scoring 100 points on a short or long note will break your combo, but won't deduct hp.

Scoring 50 points on a short or long note will break your combo, and deduct 5/6 (83.3%) of the hp a miss would deduct.

What would you add or remove from this?
If it was added, I would prefer it would be a beatmap switch instead of a selectable mod (so mappers have to decide between the spam-friendly mechanics and the new ones).

For Long Notes, I would prefer making them simpler (no special judgments for special situations). Each long note has a pressing timing and releasing timing window: The moment you start holding the note it takes your pressing hit error in milliseconds, and when you release the key it considers that moment as the note release. Then both timings get averaged and the game gives a judgment based on the OD table.
Examples:
  1. The player starts holding the note 7ms earlier than perfect timing, the releases 20ms late. (7+20)/2 = 13.5ms which is a 300g according to the OD table.
  2. The player starts holding 100ms late, then it releases 2ms late. 51ms which is a 200 unless the OD is low.
  3. The player starts holding 2ms early, then accidentally releases 1 second early. 501ms which is a MISS (shown on the screen the moment the player released)
  4. The player starts holding 400ms early, then releases 0ms late. 200ms which is a MISS.
  5. The player starts holding 200ms early, then releases 0ms late. 100ms which is a 200 or 100 depending on OD.


For short notes spamming, there would be some changes in the OD table.
Make the "MISS" timing window for early presses much bigger (for example, 1000ms and independent of OD), and give a MISS if the player hits a note in that time window.
Blaizer
The beatmap switch is a good idea. I like it.

I'm not too sure increasing the window of miss would work too well. You'd accidentally miss a note that wasn't even on the screen, then when that note comes on screen you try to hit it again, and end up getting a miss for the note that's after that and so on. I know you're going for simplicity, but it just isn't going to work here. Instead you should be punished, but still able to hit the next note.

The hold thing seems good on paper, but in practice it's not that good. You have more precise control over pressing a button down than releasing it. The thing that you have the most control over should be what's most emphasized for scoring.

So the timing window for releasing a long note should be less strict than for pressing it. In exchange, the release of a long note should never improve your score for the long note. If you press with 320 accuracy and release with 320 accuracy, you get 320. If you press with 320 accuracy and release with 200 accuracy, you get 200. If you press with 200 accuracy and release with 320 accuracy, you get 200.

This also keeps the mindset of the player in the right place. With the averaging thing, you're encouraging players to think "oh crap I hit that badly better release it exactly on time to get the best score from it". With the emphasis on hitting the start of the long note instead, you're encouraging players to always hit the notes at the right time, and stay in beat with the song.

-Kamikaze- wrote:

I don't like idea of breaking on 50/100 and I'd make judgement on normal notes harder including rainbow 300's. Then I would only play hard mode
Your combo (specifically, that number with the X after it at the top of the playfield) doesn't affect your score whatsoever (look up osu!mania scoring if you don't believe me). So breaking your combo is just a visual thing. We could even add combo breaks on 50 in the current osu!mania and it wouldn't change anything (except give you a bit better feedback on doing badly).
Kamikaze

Blaizer wrote:

Your combo (specifically, that number with the X after it at the top of the playfield) doesn't affect your score whatsoever (look up osu!mania scoring if you don't believe me). So breaking your combo is just a visual thing. We could even add combo breaks on 50 in the current osu!mania and it wouldn't change anything (except give you a bit better feedback on doing badly).
Yeah it's just visual, but that's the thing that annoys me in SM - that I lose combo when I get "Good" judgement. I don't mind breaking at 50, becuase that's literally almost hitting, but breaking at 100's will be annoying especially with forced hold release
Full Tablet

Blaizer wrote:

I'm not too sure increasing the window of miss would work too well. You'd accidentally miss a note that wasn't even on the screen, then when that note comes on screen you try to hit it again, and end up getting a miss for the note that's after that and so on. I know you're going for simplicity, but it just isn't going to work here. Instead you should be punished, but still able to hit the next note.
For avoiding that situation, the note disappears from the chart as soon as you miss it.

Blaizer wrote:

So the timing window for releasing a long note should be less strict than for pressing it. In exchange, the release of a long note should never improve your score for the long note. If you press with 320 accuracy and release with 320 accuracy, you get 320. If you press with 320 accuracy and release with 200 accuracy, you get 200. If you press with 200 accuracy and release with 320 accuracy, you get 200.

This also keeps the mindset of the player in the right place. With the averaging thing, you're encouraging players to think "oh crap I hit that badly better release it exactly on time to get the best score from it". With the emphasis on hitting the start of the long note instead, you're encouraging players to always hit the notes at the right time, and stay in beat with the song.
For that, it could be something like this:
Both hitting and releasing have a timing window (each giving a sub-judgment), and the judgment given for the hold note is the worst of both sub-judgments. The timing window for hitting is slightly more lenient than the timing windows for short notes, and the timing window for releasing is even more lenient than the timing window for hitting.
Topic Starter
Drace
It's nice to contemplate what mechanics would be ideal but you gotta keep in mind that nothing as fundamental as core mechanics will or needs to change. Osu!mania already established itself for what it is.

Instead these ideas should be discussed for the other games currently in development. They're actively looking for help and ideas.

to name a few:
Raindrop
Malody
LostWave
etcetc
Bobbias
I'm actually going to agree with Drace here.

Peppy has said he plans to work on mania, however, I'm fairly confident in saying he's not looking to make changes to the core mechanics of mania. Any change in the core mechanics requires a complete reset of the scoreboards for every song. This is because any change to the core mechanics changes the value of a given score. If the core mechanics make it harder to achieve high scores, then pre-existing high scores would be worth more than they used to be. This kind of complete reset would upset a lot of people, and goes against the level of consistency that peppy wants. Any changes to mania in the future are likely only to be polishing the editor, code cleanup, and other minor changes.
splinternight
wtf did i just watch? xD
Blaizer

Bobbias wrote:

I'm actually going to agree with Drace here.

Peppy has said he plans to work on mania, however, I'm fairly confident in saying he's not looking to make changes to the core mechanics of mania. Any change in the core mechanics requires a complete reset of the scoreboards for every song. This is because any change to the core mechanics changes the value of a given score. If the core mechanics make it harder to achieve high scores, then pre-existing high scores would be worth more than they used to be. This kind of complete reset would upset a lot of people, and goes against the level of consistency that peppy wants. Any changes to mania in the future are likely only to be polishing the editor, code cleanup, and other minor changes.
Not if it's a mod, or a beatmap-specific switch. Then all new or updated maps could just use the new scoring without impacting any of the existing stuff.
Kamikaze

Blaizer wrote:

Not if it's a mod, or a beatmap-specific switch. Then all new or updated maps could just use the new scoring without impacting any of the existing stuff.
That would destroy already ranked maps, because they'd have broken mechanics while new ones would not. It's just unfair.
PyaKura
@Blaizer : Then we would require two separate leaderboards with the existing one becoming obsolete, which is unlikely to happen especially if it's a new one solely existing because of a mod. I say osu!mania's mechanics are already set in stone. Lately I've been using osu! only because the editor is easy to use, a lot less for actually playing (although I do because I need to check what other mappers do every month).
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