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Seriously why do we have to time the release of each hold note?

posted
Total Posts
52
41236
236 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
41236
Could someone explain the point doing that or is it just a thing from o2jam? It's REALLY weird and I believe many people do not like that way of judgement in o!m either.
Can't we just keep holding the note till the end(or even A LOT longer) and still get a MAX? We can do that with those sliders in Std and in other Bemani games, right? It'd be more fun and logical to only time the presses and NOT the releases, that way maybe osu! could also get even more players.
I've just decided to switch from Std to o!m and still have never played any Bemani game before so please forgive me if I'm wrong.
Tornspirit
251 posts
Joined January 2012
Tornspirit
Hold notes in this game count as two notes, a press and a release. That's sort of just how it is. I'm pretty sure beatmania also requires you to time releases, and with beatmania, o2jam, ez2dj, etc. all having that feature, that's just how it works.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Not like it could be changed now anyway
41236
236 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
41236

Tornspirit wrote:

Hold notes in this game count as two notes, a press and a release. That's sort of just how it is. I'm pretty sure beatmania also requires you to time releases, and with beatmania, o2jam, ez2dj, etc. all having that feature, that's just how it works.
apparently it's not required in Stepmania and FlashFlashRevolution and for sure it's not in osu! Standard.

-Kamikaze- wrote:

Not like it could be changed now anyway
Why not? Making the game easier won't break the scoreboards, right?
Pinecone
151 posts
Joined February 2014
Pinecone
Actually you will break the scoreboards because people will have an unfair advantage in getting a high score then before.
So all we can say is deal with it I guess.
Tornspirit
251 posts
Joined January 2012
Tornspirit

41236 wrote:

Tornspirit wrote:

Hold notes in this game count as two notes, a press and a release. That's sort of just how it is. I'm pretty sure beatmania also requires you to time releases, and with beatmania, o2jam, ez2dj, etc. all having that feature, that's just how it works.
apparently it's not required in Stepmania and FlashFlashRevolution and for sure it's not in osu! Standard.
Stepmania and FFR are based on DDR. Having hold notes requiring a release on DDR is stupid because of how feet work, and that got carried over into the 4 arrow variants.
Granger
835 posts
Joined April 2014
Granger

41236 wrote:

It'd be more fun and logical to only time the presses and NOT the releases
Uhm... how is that more logical? When you play... say a song on a real piano you cant just hold the note either can you?
41236
236 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
41236

-Hazelnut wrote:

Actually you will break the scoreboards because people will have an unfair advantage in getting a high score then before.
So all we can say is deal with it I guess.
So whenever a new better keyboard is made, the game is ruined?
People who are playing and will be playing ALL have that advantage so it's not unfair.

Tornspirit wrote:

Stepmania and FFR are based on DDR. Having hold notes requiring a release on DDR is stupid because of how feet work, and that got carried over into the 4 arrow variants.
Sorry I don't get your point.
akebono
615 posts
Joined August 2012
akebono
hurr, that's make the game more boring, hold note is fun because like piano, you release when it's time to release,
no release time ? boring note, go die

it's just like you ask "Seriously why do we have to time the release of each hold breath" loljk
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
It makes more rhythmical sense that way due to holding/releasing mattering on instruments, as previously stated. This has the side-effect of making certain slider patterns in autoconvert maps absolute garbage to play (since said maps are based around being able to hold sliders/spinners as long as you want) but that's what mania specific maps are for.
Kaeru
302 posts
Joined February 2013
Kaeru
In my eyes, it's only the primitive rhythm games that don't have this. I can agree that it does feel odd for DDR though, and there was really no need to add it to Stepmania because not everyone plays with the keyboard. It would have been pointless to put it in FFR because Stepmania already lacked it and everyone was used to not having to time releases already.
41236
236 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
41236
Why is there no one on my side? It'd be ABSOLUTELY illogical to keep the game like that. Let's think of each individual note as a hold note. We can because they're basically the same with different amounts of time holding the key down. No matter how fast we are, once we press a key, we actually hold it down a little before releasing it. With each individual note, you can just press the according key when the note crosses the judgement row without releasing the key and get a MAX, right? And my question is that why we can't do the same with a hold note.
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
quite a lot of rhythm games have this implemented as well, and it's one of those things that prevents you from spamming, though obviously much less so in this case. Point is that the map was created in such a way that you aren't supposed to be holding that note for days (since it's generally following something). So if there aren't any notes in that column and the hold note notes, you can theoretically hold that note for the whole song, which imo is technically not meant to be that way (obviuosly there won't be 1 note in a column for a whole song but you know what I mean).

there are similar things that you can do in osu like holding z down the whole time and pressing x to hit notes to prevent certain types of slider breaks from happening, which is technically not how it's supposed to be played, but there's nothing to prevent that. But here, there is a sort of prevention barrier.

And I don't think that many people dislike this feature as much as you think. It's just how the game is meant to be played as designed by the creator.
Last edited by winber1 , edited 1 time in total.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

winber1 wrote:

there are similar things that you can do in osu like holding z down the hole time and pressing x to hit notes to prevent certain types of slider breaks from happening
holy shit
thank you for this trick i just tried it on a map with a lot of asshole overlap sliders/repeats.

i hate sliders so much. if the game was nothing but streams and jumps with circles i would lose no sleep
41236
236 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
41236

winber1 wrote:

quite a lot of rhythm games have this implemented as well, and it's one of those things that prevents you from spamming, though obviously much less so in this case. Point is that the map was created in such a way that you aren't supposed to be holding that note for days (since it's generally following something). So if there aren't any notes in that column and the hold note notes, you can theoretically hold that note for the whole song, which imo is technically not meant to be that way (obviuosly there won't be 1 note in a column for a whole song but you know what I mean).

there are similar things that you can do in osu like holding z down the hole time and pressing x to hit notes to prevent certain types of slider breaks from happening, which is technically not how it's supposed to be played, but there's nothing to prevent that. But here, there is a sort of prevention barrier.
Anyone can hold the notes however they want, that kind of spamming doesn't help them score better either.
That trick can only apply to osu! because z and x are the same.

winber1 wrote:

And I don't think that many people dislike this feature as much as you think. It's just how the game is meant to be played as designed by the creator.
Because I like this game, want it to be a better game so that I can enjoy it more or maybe I'm an extreme case of OCD and autism.
Individual notes and hold notes all have pressing, holding and releasing. Why do ONLY the releasing parts of individual notes play no part in judgement?
Last edited by 41236 , edited 2 times in total.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
whoops, im dumb
but so is this idea. seems like a poor substitute for learning how to play.

this is also the wrong forum if you want it to change, 4

"autistics"? lolenglish
Last edited by Vuelo Eluko , edited 70 times in total.
41236
236 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
41236

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

osu doesnt have hold notes and you havent even played osu in the past 3 months. are you sure you didnt wander in from the Hexis forums by accident?

Unless you're still talking about Mania [which you seem to have zero plays of], in which case, disregard this post.
So what is it called, slider spinner LN whatever it's JUST A NAME, people who have posted here (including youself) all know what I'm talking about.
Autistics should stop taking things too literally like that.
Chipmunk42
13 posts
Joined March 2014
Chipmunk42

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

osu doesnt have hold notes and you havent even played osu in the past 3 months. are you sure you didnt wander in from the Hexis forums by accident?

Unless you're still talking about Mania [which you seem to have zero plays of], in which case, disregard this post.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
i was confused by the talk of standard and the thread creator bitching about a mode he's never even played. I probably should have looked up there sooner before my second post.

It's fixed now.
Pinecone
151 posts
Joined February 2014
Pinecone

41236 wrote:

-Hazelnut wrote:

Actually you will break the scoreboards because people will have an unfair advantage in getting a high score then before.
So all we can say is deal with it I guess.
So whenever a new better keyboard is made, the game is ruined?
People who are playing and will be playing ALL have that advantage so it's not unfair.
First of all, you completely misunderstood my post. If you're going to argue with people, at least understand what they're saying first.

Secondly, "So whenever a new better keyboard is made, the game is ruined?" I don't even know what you mean here. What does keyboard have anything to do with the scoring system?

Lastly, yeah of course everyone has the same advantage after you implement that system. Don't try to reply with a blatant answer. What I meant to say was people who already played the song before implementing the new hold system will have a disadvantage to people who play the same song after it gets implemented. Of course, there could be a way around this, I'm going to ask how.
onehundred1
30 posts
Joined February 2013
onehundred1
It's just that you suck and you need to git gud.

Releasing hold notes are logical in every way just like playing a musical instrument which is where the mania gameplay was based on.
41236
236 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
41236

-Hazelnut wrote:

First of all, you completely misunderstood my post. If you're going to argue with people, at least understand what they're saying first.

Secondly, "So whenever a new better keyboard is made, the game is ruined?" I don't even know what you mean here. What does keyboard have anything to do with the scoring system?

Lastly, yeah of course everyone has the same advantage after you implement that system. Don't try to reply with a blatant answer. What I meant to say was people who already played the song before implementing the new hold system will have a disadvantage to people who play the same song after it gets implemented. Of course, there could be a way around this, I'm going to ask how.
Better keyboard = advantage
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

41236 wrote:

Better keyboard = advantage
So is it on other modes and no one seems to bitch about it.

onehundred1 wrote:

It's just that you suck and you need to git gud.
+420

MillhioreF wrote:

It makes more rhythmical sense that way due to holding/releasing mattering on instruments, as previously stated. This has the side-effect of making certain slider patterns in autoconvert maps absolute garbage to play (since said maps are based around being able to hold sliders/spinners as long as you want) but that's what mania specific maps are for.
That's why you should start playing real maps that makes sense eg. mania specific maps. Stop bitching around and arguing pointlessly.
Pinecone
151 posts
Joined February 2014
Pinecone
I think it should be obvious what everyone here wants to tell you now.

Play this game more.

You're arguing about a game you never even played before.
I don't play standard mode for the first time and say "Seriously why do we even have sliders?"
That's just how the game is so just deal with it.
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
on that note... if you are playing o!m maps that aren't o!m specific, you don't even have a right to post lol. the holds and releases make a lot more sense there than in the auto-generated beatmaps made by osu! itself.

Also, about the keyboard business, keyboards basically have no effect on o!m as long as they don't have serious problems with ghosting. Having mech keyboards mostly helps for stamina, which in rare cases are needed in o!m for the current maps that are out. Probably matters more with the more insane maps elsewhere, but right now o!m doesn't really have any around.

Lastly, I only brought standard up because there technically is a right way to play something, but other non-conventional methods do exist. The point here is that the hold notes are mapped to something, and the mapper used the hold slider so that it matches something in the music, and the player must abide to what the mapper wants. There are different ways to make it not as awkward and hard to release at the right time, but the mapper decides what he/she does. And anyway, you basically arguing with how a game works. Guitar hero has a very large hitbox for notes while rockband has a much smaller hitbox. If you don't like how rockband is so harsh, go play guitar hero. It's basically like that. If you seriously hate this release thing that much, you can try to find another game which does not have this or make your own. This isn't something that is objectively bad for a rhythm game.

Also imo, it adds an extra layer of depth to the game. And honestly, it's not that hard to release at the right time. You don't lose that much accuracy releasing at the wrong time.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
I can see how Wintersun would get SS'd by pretty much everyone lol.
41236
236 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
41236
Read all the posts carefully and look at my profile before posting anything please
I'm not complaining about any avantage -Hazelnut said it first and I didn't bitch about how hard the game is either. You all can't say I suck because I've never played A SINGLE map. You all tell me to play more, well I want to but I CAN'T.
What I want to do is to make this game more logical. I'm not doing this because it makes the game easier for me you know?
Are you all trolling?
And I'm using my cell phone to post.
Last edited by 41236 , edited 2 times in total.
Sp3ct3r_2k11
56 posts
Joined March 2011
Sp3ct3r_2k11


Totally experienced enough to complain about the gameplay, brah.
We're caught guys. The whole long note system is stupid so we should totally change it to a very different system where i could hold the long notes as long as i want to. \:D/
Rejoice!
Pinecone
151 posts
Joined February 2014
Pinecone
No one's trying to troll you.
If you want to make this game more logical, listen to others and play this game more.
No one's going to listen to you seriously until you have at least 500 playcounts.
Since you can't play this game at the moment, you didn't need to bother making this thread. You should have made this thread after you started playing.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Cyclone
Ok, this is coming from a guy who absolutely hates holds and hates how every mania map seems to mirror o2jam's style of having holds everywhere. If i still had the ability to lock threads I would do so here. 41236, you honestly aren't listening to the people who have already answered your question. If the main issue you are having comes from the release of a hold, keep in mind that if it wasn't made specifically for mania mode (meaning it was automatically converted from osu! mode, where the mechanic doesn't exist) then the release of said hold may come at an awkward time. Chalk it up to bad mapping.
41236
236 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
41236

-Hazelnut wrote:

No one's trying to troll you.
If you want to make this game more logical, listen to others and play this game more.
No one's going to listen to you seriously until you have at least 500 playcounts.
Since you can't play this game at the moment, you didn't need to bother making this thread. You should have made this thread after you started playing.
Thanks but I already listen to others hundreds times more than believing in my own opinion.
I'll stop arguing here. That was all I have to say.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Somebody call Locktav
41236
236 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
41236

egas00 wrote:

hurr, that's make the game more boring, hold note is fun because like piano, you release when it's time to release,
no release time ? boring note, go die

it's just like you ask "Seriously why do we have to time the release of each hold breath" loljk
Most of you are unreasonable just like this guy.
I've said pretty clearly, read all my posts above and realize it.
For those who really like timing the releases, adding this would be logically correct and make the game HARDER: releasing individual notes with perfect timing ->which means you can't really hold them. When playing piano, you can't really hold those notes either so it'd be more logical, isn't it? Do you think it would be more fun?
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

Cyclone wrote:

If i still had the ability to lock threads I would do so here.
Please find someone who can lock these kind of threads. It's so frustrating not being able to do anything about these threads.
41236
236 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
41236

Bobbias wrote:

Cyclone wrote:

If i still had the ability to lock threads I would do so here.
Please find someone who can lock these kind of threads. It's so frustrating not being able to do anything about these threads.
Fine, just run away from the matter and keep this one of your o2jam games
akebono
615 posts
Joined August 2012
akebono

41236 wrote:

or maybe I'm an extreme case of OCD and autism
You're implying it's just YOU who got this ;)

41236 wrote:

Better keyboard = advantage
hello ~ I'm the guy who have $3 ... no $1.5 keyboard from 2002 ~ and I HATE MECHANICAL KEYBOARD ~ too :3

41236 wrote:

egas00 wrote:

hurr, that's make the game more boring, hold note is fun because like piano, you release when it's time to release,
no release time ? boring note, go die

it's just like you ask "Seriously why do we have to time the release of each hold breath" loljk
Most of you are unreasonable just like this guy.
I've said pretty clearly, read all my posts above and realize it.
For those who really like timing the releases, adding this would be logically correct and make the game HARDER: releasing individual notes with perfect timing ->which means you can't really hold them. When playing piano, you can't really hold those notes either so it'd be more logical, isn't it? Do you think it would be more fun?
hello ~ I'm the one who play piano and play clasiccal ~ not to mention I love jazz too ~

yes it'll be fun, but ~ it'll be a boring game, you don't like it ?? aww... just make your own game or play other game that's fit you, (I'm doing that everytime and not complaining), clearly your reason is strong and good, but not logical enough >:(

adding this would be logically correct and make the game HARDER ? how can you call it harder when you just hold 7K and just release it when the other note comes up ? I'm actually doing that and it sucks..
Last edited by akebono , edited 4 times in total.
Granger
835 posts
Joined April 2014
Granger
Again, explain us HOW it is more logical?

When playing piano, you can't really hold those notes either so it'd be more logical, isn't it?
Have you even ever played piano or any other music instrument? (Except stuff like drums and xylophones as those cant play long notes.)

Why is it more logical to not have to follow the notes as they are written (or mapped in this case)?
Bauxe
1,624 posts
Joined August 2012
Bauxe
I thought mania was based off IIDX (at least, peppy said so in the recent event), and in IIDX, you need to let go of hold notes on time.

So it makes sense to have it here too?
41236
236 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
41236
I wanted to make o!m better at first, now I hope it keeps this system forever and continues to be this generation's o2jam.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

41236 wrote:

Fine, just run away from the matter and keep this one of your o2jam games
First, o2jam is lenient on hold releases. they're required, but the timing window for them is generally pretty large.

Second, you have no right to criticize a game mode you haven't played.

Third, if you seriously wished to make a suggestion that peppy should change this game mechanic, you've posted this in the wrong forum, and this should be moved to the suggestions forum.

Fourth, you have no experience with this game mode, and presume to tell players how their game mode should work. This is pure flame bait and will never result in a civil discussion of the matter, regardless of how valid your remarks might be.

Fifth, your criticism is entirely pointless because peppy will not change something this fundamental to the game mode just because one person decided it was a bad decision.
Pinecone
151 posts
Joined February 2014
Pinecone
Not really there are lots of BMS style maps in o!m as well as o2 maps, stepmania 4k...
It's a bit of an exaggerating expression to say o!m is the new generation of o2jam
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka

41236 wrote:

now I hope it keeps this system forever and continues to be this generation's o2jam.
what's wrong with o2jam though
akebono
615 posts
Joined August 2012
akebono

Bauxe wrote:

I thought mania was based off IIDX (at least, peppy said so in the recent event), and in IIDX, you need to let go of hold notes on time.

So it makes sense to have it here too?
I thought IIDX really STRICT at releasing hold note ? more than o2jam do ?
make sense now ?
Kaeru
302 posts
Joined February 2013
Kaeru

41236 wrote:

Are you all trolling?
Wait, what? I thought you were the one trolling. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with this kind of game mechanic. Once you start playing the game you won't even notice it. The reason why you don't have to release short notes on time is because it makes absolutely no sense to be judged twice in such a small interval of time. That would make smaller notes give way too much accuracy and it wouldn't make sense at all. Long notes have to be held and released on time because you're supposed to be following the music. Who the hell presses a short key and doesn't release anyways? The whole purpose of this system is to make the game feel smoother and more like you're actually interacting with the music.

You mention that you have OCD.. doesn't that mean you should support this system? I have that to some degree as well and I think it would be less symmetrical if releases on long notes aren't judged. I think you should really just start playing.. you will get used to it.. and if you have a valid complaint, people will take you seriously if you're an avid player.
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin

Agka wrote:

41236 wrote:

now I hope it keeps this system forever and continues to be this generation's o2jam.
what's wrong with o2jam though
i heard u liked longnotes

:lol:
Chokladboll
190 posts
Joined November 2012
Chokladboll
i expected to see you here dolphin :D
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
good thing this guys loud noobiness and bitching drowned out my earlier stupidity :)
Pinecone
151 posts
Joined February 2014
Pinecone
Wow there are lots of people posting on this thread haha.
This thread got too much attention than it needed ._.
Fullerene-
550 posts
Joined April 2013
Fullerene-
stepmania player here

stop complaining, this isn't stepmania. deal with it
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin

Chokladboll wrote:

i expected to see you here dolphin :D
holy shit are you stalking me or something im calling the cops
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