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Rank harder maps

posted
Total Posts
149

Should ET maps (like Thanatos, Little Hearts, unlimited spark) be allowed for ranking?

Yes
270
92.15%
No
23
7.85%
Total votes: 293
Xcrypt
264 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Xcrypt
For those that are not familiar with the maps:
Unlimited Spark
Little Star
Thanatos

-----

With a better ranking system coming our way, it might be time to finally allow some harder maps for ranking so we can utilize the system to it's fullest extent.
For most of us, these maps will seem too hard. For expert players though (non-acc 98%+ players), there is only one challenging ranked o!m song atm: imperishable night.

The counter arguments I've heard usually go along the lines of "those maps are overmapped and not technically correct". I'm all for quality myself, but I think we really need to redefine some of these "technically correct" rules. Excessive ghost notes or notes that curse with the song's rhythm should probably discouraged, but aside from that a map's interpretation is subjective. 3-chords can feel like a big clash sound in easier maps, but placed in an ET map it may seem like a normal or even dimmed sound.

If you disagree, I would be interested in hearing your arguments as to why you voted for it.
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94
Voted for yes but since "SOME BATs" won't allow these types of ET charts/maps, they wouldn't even consider that(the ET charts/maps) as a good example of hard/challenge maps although the mania Ranking Criteria said NOTHING about the overused of LNs or overmapped such as Agka's map or even some Korean maps that should be good enough for ranking if they didn't break the 7-simultaneuos-keys-in-a-row rule on a map.

Also, this seems like more of a BATs' control than mappers' choice of what they want to for their own map and deserved when their maps get ranked.

-----------------
tl;dr Voted yes but to rank harder maps ; 50-50 possibilities.
Taadashi
230 posts
Joined January 2011
Taadashi
Voted yes. It will make the rankings more accurate.
Rumia-
2,531 posts
Joined July 2012
Rumia-

Xcrypt wrote:

For most of us, these maps will seem too hard. For expert players though (non-acc 98%+ players), there is only one challenging ranked o!m song atm: imperishable night.
correcting your grammar a little *for those who
yes harder maps should be ranked.
or you want it to be the same boring mania?
this mode yet to have any score multiplier like std specific modes
playing boring maps only chase experts away , they better off look for another challanging game.
if you want my opinions these maps should be ranked.
it doesn't againts the ranking criteria.
as if big black in standard , no 1 fc-ed other than late cookiezi.
so why not ranking this too?
its not easy to create this kind of diffs. and yet many players left because its the same boring map again.
i agree to rank harder maps. but it needs a proper flow and good reasons.
and NO to just random overmap maps
SO YES FOR ME . +1
EDIT: should include these maps too
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/106437
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/151776
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/127305
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/327909
Last edited by Rumia- , edited 3 times in total.
richardfeder
1,060 posts
Joined March 2013
richardfeder

- R u m i a - wrote:

i agree to rank harder maps. but it needs a proper flow and good reasons.
and NO to just random overmap maps
SO YES FOR ME . +1
YES FOR ME +1
But equally important, they needs proper flows and good reasons
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94
inb4 Tom94 would have a hard time to recalculate these harder maps if these maps would get their deserved place. :roll:
[Emiria]
1,010 posts
Joined November 2012
[Emiria]
ET maps with perfect patterns just fit the songs
i think it will rank

if the map is just full of overmap, i think it is just wanting to be difficult .not suitable for rank .


so i agree with rumia
Lieselotte
404 posts
Joined August 2011
Lieselotte
I agree with rumia
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
the lack of hard maps is indeed leading people to leave.

honestly I don't think everyone shares the "technically correct" vision people here have.

We undermap. We overmap. We experiment and make fun stuff with a variety of tools, and other people enjoy those. But it just happens that an entitled person with a bit of power suddenly thinks that those maps are not "correct" as if there was a united artistic vision osu!mania players should follow.

hint: there's none, and trying to imitate what's "correct" in any other game will just cause people to leave, hell, it's already happening! Some people are moving onto LR2, back to O2Jam, still prefer stepmania, etc...

people have different tastes in maps and some people may actually dislike "technically correct" maps or prefer other kinds of maps

and if osu!mania is a clone of other VSRGs with literally nothing new to offer besides the broken rankings it will simply stay stagnated like it is right now
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Why don't we just go for approval with ET maps? Lenght of the map isn't a problem, I've seen A LOT of standard maps with even less than 4 mins approved, so there shouldn't be any problem. If map is well done and playable we should be able to get them in approved section.
Rumia-
2,531 posts
Joined July 2012
Rumia-

-Kamikaze- wrote:

Why don't we just go for approval with ET maps? Lenght of the map isn't a problem, I've seen A LOT of standard maps with even less than 4 mins approved, so there shouldn't be any problem. If map is well done and playable we should be able to get them in approved section.
that was theold approved map criteria , the new ones need to be at least 6 mins
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94

-Kamikaze- wrote:

Why don't we just go for approval with ET maps? Lenght of the map isn't a problem, I've seen A LOT of standard maps with even less than 4 mins approved, so there shouldn't be any problem. If map is well done and playable we should be able to get them in approved section.
Approved section in mania is only what Rumia has said but for ET maps to be in Approved section? That, you have to persuade BATmanager or some BATs who have knowledgeable about this Approved thingy.
milky228_old
39 posts
Joined February 2013
milky228_old
Voted yes, I like watching these maps if nothing else.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
Approved isn't going to happen. Restricting Approved to marathon maps is the first step in eliminating the category in the first place, peppy ultimately wants Approved gone.

I agree with agka on this one. There is no magical 'correct' way to map. If you want to follow the music in a technical sense, then most easy difficulties are wrong, because they very often place notes in incorrect timings in order to simplify the timing for newcomers. Beyond that, you could consider them undermapped too.

Mapping is an artistic expression, and should be treated as such. A map is the mapper's interpretation of the music, not some technical transcription of the music directly into notes. If you want that, go play keyboardmania or something. Or go play an instrument. There is an art to overmapping that people here are not acknowledging.

The single most important thing about a chart/map is whether or not its enjoyable. There are certain qualities that go into making a map fun which still apply whether something is overmapped, or uses some other gimick like teleporting notes, stops, mashes, etc. etc. Making it so that mappers are not encouraged to experiment will discourage the better mappers, and will mean that most maps will end up feeling the same. One of the big draws with o2jam is that many of the most popular charts employed some sort of gimick in a way that made the map unique.

Again there is no 'correct' way to map. What's important is whether or not it's fun and unique.
QQQK
QQQK
Ah, this age-old discussion.

Indeed, the lack of incredibly difficult maps is the main reason osu!mania may attract players from other games, but can't make them stay. You mention Imperishable Night 2006 being the sole ranked boss map at the moment. From what I can tell, the 7K Lunatic difficulty on that map is a carbon copy of the Overjoy 2 BMS chart, except with a sprinkle of LNs in the middle. (Which tells us that BATs in this game are totally fine with ranking imported maps from other VSRGs... but that's a rant for another day!) This means that, if they really wanted to play 7K Lunatic, they can download the BMS file and play it on Lunatic Rave 2 or other BMS simulators. There is little justification in calling it a "boss map" when such high-skilled players can find a better alternative.

Of course, the rest of the ranked osu!mania mapsets look - and play - pathetically easy compared to IN2K6. The most difficult set I can think of is Shuffle Heaven, and even the SHD difficulty on that map has players capable of FC-ing, maybe even SS-ing it - implying that the map is still in these players' comfort zone, and nowhere near the challenging, stamina-draining, eye-twisting zone that we want to see. I'm honestly disappointed in how painfully easy some of the latest ranked sets are. It seems as if mappers are only meeting the bare minimum of the ranking criteria, just to attach a scoreboard to their amazing maps where "every player can expect a certain kind of standard when playing [it]".

However, once we start allowing ranking of actual "difficult" maps, I fear that mappers will completely change their attitudes toward mapping, and start creating new maps that are absolutely ridiculous and physically impossible to play. You linked three of Entozer's mapsets, all three of which, by definition, do not possess a full spread in difficulties. Now, let's assume any map ranked under "Approval" can bypass some of the ranking criteria, namely the full-spread requirement. Why would anyone map a full 4-difficulty mapset, when they can make one stupidly hard difficulty and get it approved? I believe this happened some time ago in standard. What this ends up causing is maps with one absolutely insane and expert-level difficulty. Think about it from a rookie/amateur's point of view. There is this one song that you love, and you recently found out that it has been ranked on osu! - only to find that the difficulty/-ies are way beyond your play level. Pretty disappointing and discouraging.

On the other hand, these monster charts actually take quite a long time to create. This is not standard, Taiko, nor CTB. This is osu!mania. Compared to other game modes, we have seven possible positions of notes per timing measure. Theoretically, they take seven times longer to create, compared to monster maps in other game modes. (I reiterate: theoretically. Actual time taken would be around three to four times longer.) Already, you are looking at quite a hefty sum of work for the mapper. I don't know how much of the ranking criteria these approved maps will be able to bypass, but if these maps still need a number of mods before officially being given a scoreboard, that only adds to the total time and effort required for all osu!mania players, mappers and modders alike.

It's a dilemma, really.
If you want to appeal to the beginner/amateur players, rank such maps ONLY if the entire mapset contains a full spread. No one wants to have their favourite song spoiled by some stupidly hard map.
If you want to appeal to the higher skilled players (in other words, make them STAY, and potentially influence them to bring other monstrous players), rank these difficult maps under any circumstance.
Xcrypt
264 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Xcrypt
I didn't mean to say that the current ranked maps are bad or too easy. There's definitely a place for those first timer/beginner/intermediate maps too, they are equally and perhaps even more important than ET maps because the majority of the players is not ET. I just think we need to start ranking harder maps aswell, the community is getting better at it and we need to start thinking about the real ET guys too.
I have been told part of the problems lies with BATs but I hope with some community effort we might get there too. The new ranking system (even though it is still quite unrefined) is a new hope for o!m imo - it certainly can be - and we as community can only try to make the best of it.
NaxelCL
NaxelCL
this is very necesarry XD <3 plz ranked beatmaps ETTTTTTTTTTTTT *w* I'm very noob et?
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

Xcrypt wrote:

I didn't mean to say that the current ranked maps are bad or too easy. There's definitely a place for those first timer/beginner/intermediate maps too, they are equally and perhaps even more important than ET maps because the majority of the players is not ET. I just think we need to start ranking harder maps aswell, the community is getting better at it and we need to start thinking about the real ET guys too.
I have been told part of the problems lies with BATs but I hope with some community effort we might get there too. The new ranking system (even though it is still quite unrefined) is a new hope for o!m imo - it certainly can be - and we as community can only try to make the best of it.
That's exactly my point of view. The new ranking system, although far from perfect, is a breath of fresh air for o!m. I feel like it's time for us, the o!m community as a whole, both us, simple players, and BATs or staff members alike, to make o!m what it really should be after a year of existence.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Tom94

ishimaru94 wrote:

inb4 Tom94 would have a hard time to recalculate these harder maps if these maps would get their deserved place. :roll:
Hard time? More like less than a second for the algorithm. :P
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao

Tom94 wrote:

ishimaru94 wrote:

inb4 Tom94 would have a hard time to recalculate these harder maps if these maps would get their deserved place. :roll:
Hard time? More like less than a second for the algorithm. :P
I guess more people have similar thoughts like me.
(Edit: If you keep my suggestions in mind, and agree on me, this should not be a problem at all...)

Edit: Removed because it's unrelated to this discussion. Sorry... :o
Akihiro
114 posts
Joined January 2010
Akihiro
I'm fine with ridiculously hard maps. This game is supposed to be competitive.
And, good players have no reason to stay here if there's nothing interesting ranked...

So, yeah, there's no good reason to keep really hard from ranking.
The skill cap in this kind of RG is really really high.

And if we're speaking technical stuff, most ranked maps aren't good technically.
Especially the anime stuff >_> I see just random 8ths and some random LNs. Boring patterns too.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

Akihiro wrote:

I'm fine with ridiculously hard maps. This game is supposed to be competitive.
And, good players have no reason to stay here if there's nothing interesting ranked...

So, yeah, there's no good reason to keep really hard from ranking.
The skill cap in this kind of RG is really really high.

And if we're speaking technical stuff, most ranked maps aren't good technically.
Especially the anime stuff >_> I see just random 8ths and some random LNs. Boring patterns too.
This.

Anime maps are boring as fuck, no matter how you look at it. ;o
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
Rank less maps with boom boom shhh shhh put holds to vocals/chords add clap mapping
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
I think this map is hard too https://osu.ppy.sh/b/258212

Personally I play standard, but the mapping has definitely changed from before to now and the beatmaps have been getting a lot harder. So I don't really see what's wrong with ranking harder maps in o!m.
kuuderes_shadow
132 posts
Joined May 2013
kuuderes_shadow
Just a thought - for songs with strong vibrato, is it rankable to treat each change in pitch as a different note and thus map it separately?

Because if it were rankable then that would greatly increase the number of songs for which super-insane maps can be made - and it is fitting the music to do that, after all.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
There is no correct way to map. You map depending on your understanding of the music, it's a representation of what you hear and interpret it.
And there is no RC restricting o!m mapping, apart from the jackhammers rule.
HanzeR
921 posts
Joined May 2012
HanzeR
The only thing holding most of these maps from being ranked is the lack of a proper difficulty spread.

Difficulty alone should never be a factor in ranking maps that otherwise meet all the ranking criteria
kuuderes_shadow
132 posts
Joined May 2013
kuuderes_shadow
Just make some easier difficulties then. Or get someone else to. Easier difficulties don't take so long to make as harder ones, after all.

Although in principle I do agree. If a mapset can be ranked which only contains super-easy difficulties, a mapset should be able to be ranked with only super-hard ones as well.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
General RC are prohibiting this and I don't see the issue with forcing mappers to have a well designed diffspread for both beginners and expert players if they want to get their maps ranked.
Rumia-
2,531 posts
Joined July 2012
Rumia-

PyaKura wrote:

General RC are prohibiting this and I don't see the issue with forcing mappers to have a well designed diffspread for both beginners and expert players if they want to get their maps ranked.
quit ranking world
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
o2mania / o2jam player here.

gotta agree that many ranked maps strictly for o!m only are quite meh. it feels like I'm only playing to get those 300s. Quite unchallenging to be honest.

while I do die on most songs that are level 34 in o2mania like Identity 2 or EarthQuake, I only die to those because of jackhammer patterns which is a pain like fuck. Personally I'd like Gaussian Blur 2 normal (level 27) to be ranked because 217 bpm.

meanwhile Taiko players are only getting Bs and Cs in most of their top 50. Now THAT'S challenging! Maybe I should switch to Taiko? But then again Taiko is a completely different *game*.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
You know, the wrong thing you're doing is not to involve any o!m BAT (and BAT with o!m knownledge) here in this discussion. I respect the opinion here why you want that so urgent and I understand that it really feels boring to play a game without real challenges (I cannot judge this). But; you have to talk with the BAT too. I am sure some of you already have talked with some BAT member via PM but please let them know about this discussion here.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

Stefan wrote:

You know, the wrong thing you're doing is not to involve any o!m BAT (and BAT with o!m knownledge) here in this discussion. I respect the opinion here why you want that so urgent and I understand that it really feels boring to play a game without real challenges (I cannot judge this). But; you have to talk with the BAT too. I am sure some of you already have talked with some BAT member via PM but please let them know about this discussion here.
... pretty sure they all know about this thread lol.

However, I think they've understood the message (for a little while I believe) and start to - although slowly - consider ranking harder charts. I was nicely surprised when I saw that Shi-Ra and Roxas didn't get (actually not at all) all worked up at the sight of my last map. So no, it's not yet a really really ET map but I'm confident with it being one of the hardest chart amongst the ranked ones if it were to be ranked, and the amount of jackhammers (most hated pattern by inexperienced players) should have made them jump out of the window... or so I thought.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
I think the real problem is:

*I'm not physically drained.*

how tiring is your typical o!s map when played? there's a reason why there are breaks in the middle of the song. Many mania players don't need this. at. all. there's a reason why xi - freedom dive has all S in the mania top 50 while there are Bs (heck, Cs!!!) in std top 50 of the same song.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Pretty sure that stamina/players' physical abilities limiting o!m mapping has never been a thing. (Obviously not talking about a certain unranked marathon map featuring brackets and jacks only right huehuehuehue)
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
precisely what makes mania unchallenging.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Mh, no you're getting me wrong. What I mean is that I don't think mania maps are unrankable due to that. So, sure, it's not as crazy as others' games ET maps, but look at the amount of jackhammers my map contains. Nobody's complaining and I think it still has too many jacks, but looks like it's fine. This is not the issue.

As I said I'm getting the feeling that we will be able to rank harder maps over time. And experienced mappers should put the effort in making a SHD diff whenever possible (please stop with all that SHD non-sense stuff on calm songs, it's really unfitting, it ends up being overmapped and is not fun to play) to please actual ET players, just like I do from now on.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
well, we have to draw the line somewhere. I mean, what's normal from insane from easy etc etc...

I still think the main factor to give attention to is how draining (physically) the song is. generally, the harder the song, the tiring it gets. second being how hard to read the pattern is. right now most mania-specific maps are very easy to S, and the autoconverts are so out of place I really regret playing them.
Drace
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace
I'm sorry but stamina is far from being a prominent factor to difficulty (compared to other factors) when it comes to the difficulty of higher level maps. You got the wrong idea as to what constitute to difficulty.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
I'm also sorry but if you've played my examples from my above post (EarthQuake, Identity 2, Gaussian Blur 2) I'm pretty sure you'll hold a different opinion. Just because this is osu doesn't mean that's how it is.
Drace
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace
Stamina and physical abilities isn't the big reason why those charts are hard, and Identity jackhammer's aren't physically "draining" since it's just one burst. It requires physical skill, aka speed, not stamina. Someone who's never played rhythm games but can tap keys in rapid succession will survive those jackhammers, despite not even having the ability to make it there.

Most the time if you don't have the stamina for chart, the chart is either ridiculously long or you don't have the reading abilities or skills to play those patterns correctly anyways. By the time you reach the level to play the patterns those charts feature correctly, you'll realize that stamina wasn't the hardest thing about those maps. And if they did require, you're stamina would be good enough by then too. There's only very few stamina charts, meaning charts that the main reason why they're hard is their high stamina requirement. And those are far from hardest kind of maps the world has to offer.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
but then again Identity 2 features constant high note counts which drains your stamina slowly. then that burst attack comes which means you lost your stamina by lots. it'll be impossible to recover unless it'll feature a "rest time" (low key count) at some part of the song (it doesn't iirc).

That said, burst attacks > constant high note count when it comes to difficulty. one reason being there's rhythm in constant high note count (hint: constant) compared to bursts. then again this is just apples versus oranges talking. the real question still stands:

we have to draw the line somewhere.
Drace
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace
If you find identity II physically draining, you gotta work on your ergonomics, waaaay too much useless energy spent somewhere. It's not physically draining at all ;/.

like

at all
Last edited by Drace , edited 1 time in total.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
This ^

If anything it wakes me up, not the other way around. And I'm FAAAAAR from being good enough at mania to pretend passing this chart without difficulty.
Entozer
297 posts
Joined February 2010
Entozer
If you are looking for a ranked "physically draining" map, maybe Gigantic OTN [Entozer's Another] is the thing you are looking for, if you haven't played it yet. I am excluding IN2006 of course, because of the songs that you listed, you probably cannot play it.

If we to talk about "you are not physically drained", then that will be very subjective. In fact, the whole physically draining thing is too subjective. I think, maybe the better term you are looking for is "physically straining", and go on from that idea?

From the maps that Xcrypt listed, those three are mine and I am willing to go through the modding process for it to be ranked. Technically, they all follow the ranking criteria, but then the only thing that faithfully follows the instrument is Kakuzetsu Thanatos [SHD]. Little star has some extended Long note trickery, while unlimited spark has this long note that I am very sure will make people go "nop", so I think only kakuzetsu has the best chance for ranking. Then again, I uploaded a [New World] diff, which breaks a rule from the RC.

The most possible "ET" map that could be ranked from me right now would be Nou Shou Sakuretsu Girl, second being Catastrophe. Too bad I'm too lazy to hitsound those.

TL;DR: Help me with my map's hitsound and mod my maps please. Let's push it to rankings.
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94

Entozer wrote:

If you are looking for a ranked "physically draining" map, maybe Gigantic OTN [Entozer's Another] is the thing you are looking for, if you haven't played it yet. I am excluding IN2006 of course, because of the songs that you listed, you probably cannot play it.

If we to talk about "you are not physically drained", then that will be very subjective. In fact, the whole physically draining thing is too subjective. I think, maybe the better term you are looking for is "physically straining", and go on from that idea?

From the maps that Xcrypt listed, those three are mine and I am willing to go through the modding process for it to be ranked. Technically, they all follow the ranking criteria, but then the only thing that faithfully follows the instrument is Kakuzetsu Thanatos [SHD]. Little star has some extended Long note trickery, while unlimited spark has this long note that I am very sure will make people go "nop", so I think only kakuzetsu has the best chance for ranking. Then again, I uploaded a [New World] diff, which breaks a rule from the RC.

The most possible "ET" map that could be ranked from me right now would be Nou Shou Sakuretsu Girl, second being Catastrophe. Too bad I'm too lazy to hitsound those.

TL;DR: Help me with my map's hitsound and mod my maps please. Let's push it to rankings.
I'll help whenever I can, ento :')
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Let's all put our effort in making Ento's maps ranked \o/

also lol'd at your sig ishi
moni
233 posts
Joined July 2012
moni
support enzo for mania ET map :3 :D :D :D :D
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

PyaKura wrote:

also lol'd at your sig ishi
*Takes a look at your avatar*
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
My ava was the original thing though.
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