today silmarilen agreed with me
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)
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I guess the main misconception I have is more tries to FC != harder. Paradoxical statement, but that's what my issue boils down to. The harder the map, the more PP. The harder to FC or SS, the more PP. If someone puts the effort in to learn a map then (of course, in my own opinion) they should be rewarded for it, not put off even attempting it (AKA just no-mod SS over FL S).
Effort != PP. Gotcha.
Effort != PP. Gotcha.
the amount of pp from a play, as i understand it, is based upon how quickly the map requires you to move your cursor, how hard it is to land on the notes, and how precisely the notes are tapped. I don't think such hard to quantify metric such as 'memorizing' a map is taken into consideration because it does not directly make the map technically harder in terms of how you have to move your fingers.
Should FL really, REALLY be encouraged though?Shimatora wrote:
Precisely why I said Flashlight is obsolete. Useless outside of score. The new system is excluding FL as something that actually makes the game harder and you should be rewarded for using. Basically, we both agree. I understand WHY it happens, I don't need explaining, just offering feedback.
Precisely why I said Flashlight is obsolete. Useless outside of score. The new system is excluding FL as something that actually makes the game harder and you should be rewarded for using. Basically, we both agree. I understand WHY it happens, I don't need explaining, just offering feedback.
EDIT: Bassist Vinyl, you've literally summed up ppv2 in a nutshell. That is my quote of the fucking year right there. FL is something that shouldn't be encouraged, but frowned upon.
EDIT: Bassist Vinyl, you've literally summed up ppv2 in a nutshell. That is my quote of the fucking year right there. FL is something that shouldn't be encouraged, but frowned upon.
Is There a clear thread, or maybe some kind of wiki, consisting of the factor what pp accounts in? I mean, I can guess that we take combo, accuracy, difficulty, etc.. but you know, the details. like, losing 10% pp with nofail, losing 5% pp with spunout, combo penalties you by combo^0.8/maxcombo^0.8...
would be much easier to feedback if we had a thread or wiki that consists of information that tom94 has currently given out..
Also I strongly disagree about FD4D being overrated(actually I think it is underrated.) but I agree that medium high bpm(150~180) long streams are bit overrated ). like, say, thousand 150bpm stream would be honestly not that difficult but even 32 streams of 222bpm is ridiculously hard. example would be Mendes, with it having low enough bpm to long stream with ease, it seems to have high difficulty and it gives me the most pp, while it was one of the most easiest map to 99%/FC it.
On the other hand, so called "0108 style maps" are very underrated. maybe high SV is bit underrated. dance number and scarlet rose are super hard but its difficulty is calculated very low, maybe because you don't actually have to "press the keyboard" that much to play those maps due to tons sliders. Assuming you are taking slider correctly into the difficulty, it seems like high SV is bit underrated on current calculation. I see jumps are correctly applied(according to the airman's difficulty) but maybe generally high SV, or map that consists of lots of small jumps are bit unreasonably underrated.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25271
take a look at "bloody rose" difficulty. It is not that hard, but when you play it I'm pretty sure this is hard enough to be an insane difficulty but calculated as "hard" which is ridiculous, because regular 2.49 star diffs are notably easier than this one. Compare it to https://osu.ppy.sh/b/156346&m=0 hard diff which has 2.46 diff but it is easy enough to DT it with ease. The point is, the thing that makes "bloody rose" diff hard is the high SV (which seems underrated right now)
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27639&m=0
Intense diff has 1.91 star rating? you see nearly no DT on the ranking, which indirectly tells you how hard this map is. characteristics? high SV.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27737&m=0
yeah.
would be much easier to feedback if we had a thread or wiki that consists of information that tom94 has currently given out..
Also I strongly disagree about FD4D being overrated(actually I think it is underrated.) but I agree that medium high bpm(150~180) long streams are bit overrated ). like, say, thousand 150bpm stream would be honestly not that difficult but even 32 streams of 222bpm is ridiculously hard. example would be Mendes, with it having low enough bpm to long stream with ease, it seems to have high difficulty and it gives me the most pp, while it was one of the most easiest map to 99%/FC it.
On the other hand, so called "0108 style maps" are very underrated. maybe high SV is bit underrated. dance number and scarlet rose are super hard but its difficulty is calculated very low, maybe because you don't actually have to "press the keyboard" that much to play those maps due to tons sliders. Assuming you are taking slider correctly into the difficulty, it seems like high SV is bit underrated on current calculation. I see jumps are correctly applied(according to the airman's difficulty) but maybe generally high SV, or map that consists of lots of small jumps are bit unreasonably underrated.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25271
take a look at "bloody rose" difficulty. It is not that hard, but when you play it I'm pretty sure this is hard enough to be an insane difficulty but calculated as "hard" which is ridiculous, because regular 2.49 star diffs are notably easier than this one. Compare it to https://osu.ppy.sh/b/156346&m=0 hard diff which has 2.46 diff but it is easy enough to DT it with ease. The point is, the thing that makes "bloody rose" diff hard is the high SV (which seems underrated right now)
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27639&m=0
Intense diff has 1.91 star rating? you see nearly no DT on the ranking, which indirectly tells you how hard this map is. characteristics? high SV.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27737&m=0
yeah.
https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Performance_Pointshaha5957 wrote:
Is There a clear thread, or maybe some kind of wiki, consisting of the factor what pp accounts in? I mean, I can guess that we take combo, accuracy, difficulty, etc.. but you know, the details. like, losing 10% pp with nofail, losing 5% pp with spunout, combo penalties you by combo^0.8/maxcombo^0.8...
would be much easier to feedback if we had a thread or wiki that consists of information that tom94 has currently given out..
I still maintain that long songs should be boosted.
Maybe linearly, such that easy insane tvsizes are pp farms.
With current system, TV size maps are tons of pp, while really hard maps aren't worth anything...
FL should also be boosted a bit more at long songs (3mins or more) since it is really hard to memorize everything
Maybe linearly, such that easy insane tvsizes are pp farms.
With current system, TV size maps are tons of pp, while really hard maps aren't worth anything...
FL should also be boosted a bit more at long songs (3mins or more) since it is really hard to memorize everything
There are 2 different maps with the same song and difficulty name, but one is harder. Are you sure you are comparing the same map?Cifica wrote:
discuss
Edit: they aren't the same map.
Illkryn wrote:
I think this should be attended to, bugged hard diff
Topic Starter
All beatmaps are being re-calculated to 1.5x stars, so things like that are bound to happen. As soon as everything's done pp will go back to normal, don't worry.
You have nofail on the SSCifica wrote:
discuss
about when will the pp recalculation finish?
I still see maps with wrong star difficulty...
Will graveyarded and pending maps have a recalculation of pp?
I still see maps with wrong star difficulty...
Will graveyarded and pending maps have a recalculation of pp?
have you considered the fact that you might be an exception and that you happen to be really good at high accuracy on low-medium bpm long streams?haha5957 wrote:
example would be Mendes, with it having low enough bpm to long stream with ease, it seems to have high difficulty and it gives me the most pp, while it was one of the most easiest map to 99%/FC it.
there are only 37 people who have a higher acc than you on mendes, only 11 used a mod and it's a frequently played map
most people find it difficult to break 93%
i understand that my strong point might be medium bpm stream and weakpoint might be fast SV.Akari- wrote:
have you considered the fact that you might be an exception and that you happen to be really good at high accuracy on low-medium bpm long streams?haha5957 wrote:
example would be Mendes, with it having low enough bpm to long stream with ease, it seems to have high difficulty and it gives me the most pp, while it was one of the most easiest map to 99%/FC it.
there are only 37 people who have a higher acc than you on mendes, only 11 used a mod and it's a frequently played map
most people find it difficult to break 93%
I still think High SV maps are underrated. Popular Emerald sword and Strangeprogram, Dance number, scarlet rose, even myself's map those have 2.88SV feels way too hard compared to maps that have same difficulty. This is why I am "discussing" this here. Is it just that I suck at fast SV and maybe little better on medium bpm streams? Like i said, I see nearly no doubletime on emerald sword Intense difficulty which barely has 3 star difficulty. Dance number, scarlet rose is famous for its insanity but it doesnt even have extra difficulty. They have fast SV in common.
yeah high SV maps are underrated because sliders are almost a nonfactor in difficulty calculation (calculation assumes that movement to and from a slider is 100% optimal iirc) and it doesn't help that high bpm singles are underrated unless they have big spacing like some of WWW's scoreshaha5957 wrote:
i understand that my strong point might be medium bpm stream and weakpoint might be fast SV.
I still think High SV maps are underrated. Popular Emerald sword and Strangeprogram, Dance number, scarlet rose, even myself's map those have 2.88SV feels way too hard compared to maps that have same difficulty. This is why I am "discussing" this here. Is it just that I suck at fast SV and maybe little better on medium bpm streams? Like i said, I see nearly no doubletime on emerald sword Intense difficulty which barely has 3 star difficulty. Dance number, scarlet rose is famous for its insanity but it doesnt even have extra difficulty. They have fast SV in common.
this is a difficult issue to fix though, hard sliders are the exception and not the norm, and it would be tricky to calculate the difference between spaced streams, tolerable bpm singles, and high bpm singles
It would be much easier to help out if we could know how actually slider difficulty is calculated because I really think high SV maps (or map with complex slider rhythm) are way too underrated. I generally agree with the star rating difficulty but high SV centered maps are significantly underrated
This might help you. I think the current iteration of the algorithm is the same up to overall scaling, but with exact values used where the code uses approximate values. I haven't actually looked through it, so no promises.
Also, it's very much a known issue that sliders are underrated. The difficulty lies in trying to fix that without breaking repeat sliders and sliderstreams.
Also, it's very much a known issue that sliders are underrated. The difficulty lies in trying to fix that without breaking repeat sliders and sliderstreams.
Although since the topic of single taps being undervalued to some extent came up, how much should we expect pp to change when/if a solution/change is applied to the algorithm? (relative value, i.e. "holy crap some people with have giant rank shifts" or "meh it'll affect some people but relative rankings should stay about same")
Topic Starter
Relative rankings should stay about the same since most people who are good got a lot of other good scores aside from these singletapping ones. Some people will profit, though.Oskur wrote:
Although since the topic of single taps being undervalued to some extent came up, how much should we expect pp to change when/if a solution/change is applied to the algorithm? (relative value, i.e. "holy crap some people with have giant rank shifts" or "meh it'll affect some people but relative rankings should stay about same")
Keep in mind, that this is one of the lowest priority aspects at the moment, since there are way more important things to do at a larger score and in the other modes.
I still suggest nerfing of DT (high speed or whatever) / increasing the profit from playing smaller circles, because this is just too silly
I also got absolutely nothing (it's not even in my top performance) for HR FC this thing which is very difficult https://osu.ppy.sh/s/8442
I also got absolutely nothing (it's not even in my top performance) for HR FC this thing which is very difficult https://osu.ppy.sh/s/8442
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/225490
Another: 5.36
Extra: 5.39
I FC'd the Extra. https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1721589
The Another, on the other hand, is impossible to pass for me. I'm not saying the Another is rated too low, but the Extra is rated too high. Can you give less pp for OD7 sliderjumps please, they're really not hard compared to the CS5 OD8 deathstreams on Another.
Another: 5.36
Extra: 5.39
I FC'd the Extra. https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1721589
The Another, on the other hand, is impossible to pass for me. I'm not saying the Another is rated too low, but the Extra is rated too high. Can you give less pp for OD7 sliderjumps please, they're really not hard compared to the CS5 OD8 deathstreams on Another.
Someone please explain this to me. I had like 1228pp and then after completing a song and beat my old score, I became 1213pp. My accuracy dropped like 0.31% even though in the song my accuracy only dropped by 4% compared to my old score. Now I'm having a hard time getting back ranks.
i have one question has it become harder to gain PP of maps?? i FC'd this map https://osu.ppy.sh/b/202072 with 97 % accuracy and it gave 0PP. i have also done a few long maps with 99% accuracy latley and not gaining any PP from them. it starting to bug me 
I dont really get this, wont this elevate only the players who are really active? because not all of us can play alot,like ALOT (8-10) hours per day like some of osu players o mostly can sit 1-2hours, so wont this leave me and the other players who arent as active as th"active" players behind?
4%? Like, 95% -> 91%? That's a lot. In fact, that example would be almost twice the 100/50 count. If you lost that much PP, it was probably one of your higher-ranking songs on which you had comparatively good accuracy. If you want it back, you need to beat your score again with the kind of accuracy you used to have on it.GxArchery wrote:
Someone please explain this to me. I had like 1228pp and then after completing a song and beat my old score, I became 1213pp. My accuracy dropped like 0.31% even though in the song my accuracy only dropped by 4% compared to my old score. Now I'm having a hard time getting back ranks.
Obviously. This isn't the "No Player Left Behind Act." osu!'s not going to hand out participation awards so everyone can feel good about themselves. It's a leaderboard. A ranking. A measure of who is better than who. Of course someone that works harder is going to do better. You're telling me you want to look better than people who are pouring in vastly more time and effort than you? How is that fair at all?valixas125 wrote:
I dont really get this, wont this elevate only the players who are really active? because not all of us can play alot,like ALOT (8-10) hours per day like some of osu players o mostly can sit 1-2hours, so wont this leave me and the other players who arent as active as th"active" players behind?
If you want to have a good rank, work for it. If you can't, you'll have to deal with a lower rank. It's not like it changes the game and prevents you from playing or anything.
No like 99% accuracy and I dropped to 95% with HD,HR mods on .XGeneral2000 wrote:
4%? Like, 95% -> 91%? That's a lot. In fact, that example would be almost twice the 100/50 count. If you lost that much PP, it was probably one of your higher-ranking songs on which you had comparatively good accuracy. If you want it back, you need to beat your score again with the kind of accuracy you used to have on it.
not always trueXGeneral2000 wrote:
Of course someone that works harder is going to do better.
i work harder than most people at my rank did to get here and a lot of people far above my rank had to try way less than me...
i know playcount isnt everything, i also have an insanely high number of total hits.
Free ranks for participation pls
That's even worse, 99 -> 95 means you got five times as many 100s. HDHR will not outweigh that much of a drop.GxArchery wrote:
No like 99% accuracy and I dropped to 95% with HD,HR mods on .XGeneral2000 wrote:
4%? Like, 95% -> 91%? That's a lot. In fact, that example would be almost twice the 100/50 count. If you lost that much PP, it was probably one of your higher-ranking songs on which you had comparatively good accuracy. If you want it back, you need to beat your score again with the kind of accuracy you used to have on it.
Hard work vs talent issues aside, the point is that you can't complain about low rank if you're not even willing to put any time or effort into it. That's true for anything in life. Maybe you're a genius at something and can do in one hour what others would need to take 10 hours to do, but you can hardly complain if that doesn't turn out to be the case.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
not always trueXGeneral2000 wrote:
Of course someone that works harder is going to do better.
i work harder than most people at my rank did to get here and a lot of people far above my rank had to try way less than me...
i know playcount isnt everything, i also have an insanely high number of total hits.
Free ranks for participation pls
Bassist Vinyl wrote:
not always trueXGeneral2000 wrote:
Of course someone that works harder is going to do better.
i work harder than most people at my rank did to get here and a lot of people far above my rank had to try way less than me...
i know playcount isnt everything, i also have an insanely high number of total hits.
Free ranks for participation pls
that's a bit more accurate, right?XGeneral2000 wrote:
Of course someone that works harder with the same amount of talent is going to do better.
in any case, why should a measure of skill measure or take into account things that are not skill? i totally get where you're coming from, people have to work half as hard as me to get to my rank. so what? if the game provides free ranks for just playing and achieving nothing, it's not a measure of skill, it's welfare. this is a video game, not politics. genius or not, everyone has the potential to improve past their current state which means that you will get to where you want. eventually. with hard work. and if you don't want to work hard, just play some other game
if anything i just wish they removed the playcount display in this game, it's not needed for measuring skill and it's like wearing a big badge that says "i'm a goddamn retard, please spit at my feet"
On the osu! subreddit, Tillerino made an analysis of pp here. It looks pretty accurate and sound, but the thing I want to address is the graphs he made for certain songs with pp value measured against combo and accuracy.
First of all, are these accurate by any means? I mean, it's shiny and colorful so it might be.
Second, regardless of whether or not it is accurate, would/could an idea like this be implemented officially in the future? It really makes understanding the pp value gained from completing certain maps really easy with this visual representation; essentially "PP for Dummies".
First of all, are these accurate by any means? I mean, it's shiny and colorful so it might be.
Second, regardless of whether or not it is accurate, would/could an idea like this be implemented officially in the future? It really makes understanding the pp value gained from completing certain maps really easy with this visual representation; essentially "PP for Dummies".
It is an approximation, it might be useful for estimating approximately how much pp a certain score is worth, in a way that is more simple than using the real formulas.Oskur wrote:
On the osu! subreddit, Tillerino made an analysis of pp here. It looks pretty accurate and sound, but the thing I want to address is the graphs he made for certain songs with pp value measured against combo and accuracy.
First of all, are these accurate by any means? I mean, it's shiny and colorful so it might be.
Second, regardless of whether or not it is accurate, would/could an idea like this be implemented officially in the future? It really makes understanding the pp value gained from completing certain maps really easy with this visual representation; essentially "PP for Dummies".
I would like to know why my 'Best Performance' isn't changed when I, for example, have around a 98% using HR only, and then complete the same map at 100% or even 99.51% with just HR too. It's happened a few times with different maps in different situations, and I'm just wondering, how does this happen?
Your rank is still extremely low and the maps you are playing have very lenient OD (hit windows) with generally low object counts, so the bonus accuracy pp from those few 300s likely equates to less than 1.
Accuracy only becomes really important once you play more advanced maps.
Accuracy only becomes really important once you play more advanced maps.
This. HR is way too undervalued. Most players I know of around my rank aren't very adept with HR (meaning, I know nobody with a rank above 1000 that can consistently get >99% scores with HR) and that's saying something, considering players with lower ranks are very unlikely to be good at it. Small circle size + high OD + high AR can be a real pain to play with, and it should be rewarded properly in my opinion. I agree that HDDT should give more pp than HDHR, but the difference right now is much too huge. Either HR should be bumped up or DT should be toned town. Preferably the former.Kert wrote:
I still suggest nerfing of DT (high speed or whatever) / increasing the profit from playing smaller circles, because this is just too silly
I also got absolutely nothing (it's not even in my top performance) for HR FC this thing which is very difficult https://osu.ppy.sh/s/8442
Topic Starter
HR would be rewarded more if the scores would be appropriate. I think the reason for lower-level players to not be good with HR is because it simply is not fun to practice high AR, OD and CS rather than speed.Tess wrote:
This. HR is way too undervalued. Most players I know of around my rank aren't very adept with HR (meaning, I know nobody with a rank above 1000 that can consistently get >99% scores with HR) and that's saying something, considering players with lower ranks are very unlikely to be good at it. Small circle size + high OD + high AR can be a real pain to play with, and it should be rewarded properly in my opinion. I agree that HDDT should give more pp than HDHR, but the difference right now is much too huge. Either HR should be bumped up or DT should be toned town. Preferably the former.
If you provide me specific examples of scores with HR you think are unterrated I can discuss this better.
Well, it could be that he feels that the acc value of lower than 99-100% acc scores should be a bit higher near/at OD10.
Limitations of pp calculation in its current state:
1. There is no pattern recognization.
The pp calculating method simply takes note of the difference between notes and treats it as the so called strain on a map.
Sadly, in the process there is only a simple weighing of the strain and simple addition.
Therfore, DT would be overvalued in the sense that it simply makes easy patterns faster. Hard patterns would be at a disadvantage on this point.
This is why skystar maps and chloe maps are of relatively low rating since their difficulty lies in reading difficulty, not in so called aim.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
There is no way for our simple pp calculator to distinguish between single taps and streams. Therefore fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
pp calculations do not take sliders in account. Thus maps which are difficult because of sliders are underrated.
such as Talent Shredder, Strange Program
4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
This ties with what I have said about no pattern recognization. The main difficulty of HD and FL is that they make the map harder to read.
It is not reasonable to put an arbitrary multiplier for pp on a map. After pattern recognization is finished, the difficulty of HD and FL can be gauged in a better way.
5. No per-object data is available
pp calculation is based on strain values, and if there is no per-object data, there may be scores with a good combo in the easy part triumphing over the scores having a miss in the easy part yet excellent performance in other parts
6.There is no adequate rewards for playing hard maps
In the pp system, there is no reward for passing hard maps. I believe passing is a skill which is as vital or maybe even more vital than FC-ing songs. Therefore I think that we should get a reward for simply passing hard maps.
I hope that in the future it would be possible to solve these problems and make pp a much better ranking metric.
1. There is no pattern recognization.
The pp calculating method simply takes note of the difference between notes and treats it as the so called strain on a map.
Sadly, in the process there is only a simple weighing of the strain and simple addition.
Therfore, DT would be overvalued in the sense that it simply makes easy patterns faster. Hard patterns would be at a disadvantage on this point.
This is why skystar maps and chloe maps are of relatively low rating since their difficulty lies in reading difficulty, not in so called aim.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
There is no way for our simple pp calculator to distinguish between single taps and streams. Therefore fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
pp calculations do not take sliders in account. Thus maps which are difficult because of sliders are underrated.
such as Talent Shredder, Strange Program
4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
This ties with what I have said about no pattern recognization. The main difficulty of HD and FL is that they make the map harder to read.
It is not reasonable to put an arbitrary multiplier for pp on a map. After pattern recognization is finished, the difficulty of HD and FL can be gauged in a better way.
5. No per-object data is available
pp calculation is based on strain values, and if there is no per-object data, there may be scores with a good combo in the easy part triumphing over the scores having a miss in the easy part yet excellent performance in other parts
6.There is no adequate rewards for playing hard maps
In the pp system, there is no reward for passing hard maps. I believe passing is a skill which is as vital or maybe even more vital than FC-ing songs. Therefore I think that we should get a reward for simply passing hard maps.
I hope that in the future it would be possible to solve these problems and make pp a much better ranking metric.
I agree with points 1, 2, 3 and 5. I partly agree with 4, but I completely disagree with 6.
Simply passing a map can never be more vital than FCing. You can just spam your way through a map and pass it and I don't think that justifies a reward. If the map is hard for your level and you get a decent combo and just 1 miss or whatever, you will still be rewarded, even if it's not a full combo. But simply "passing" a map kinda implies that you get many misses (at least more than 1), you pass with an average combo, maybe even have bad accuracy... and that shouldn't be rewarded.
Simply passing a map can never be more vital than FCing. You can just spam your way through a map and pass it and I don't think that justifies a reward. If the map is hard for your level and you get a decent combo and just 1 miss or whatever, you will still be rewarded, even if it's not a full combo. But simply "passing" a map kinda implies that you get many misses (at least more than 1), you pass with an average combo, maybe even have bad accuracy... and that shouldn't be rewarded.
Topic Starter
I'd like to clarify, that pp does take sliders into account. It assumes she shortest possible movement for completing the slider with a 300, though, because otherwise certain sliderpatterns where you can just leave your cursor in one place would become overrated.
Other than that 6th is very subjective. My personal stance to this is, that passing a map barely is not a good performance on that particular map - hence you don't get many performance points. That does not imply that it wasn't hard or didn't require skill. Agreeing with the rest.
Other than that 6th is very subjective. My personal stance to this is, that passing a map barely is not a good performance on that particular map - hence you don't get many performance points. That does not imply that it wasn't hard or didn't require skill. Agreeing with the rest.
I don't understand increasing fast single taps. If the issue with them is that the maps are underrated, then is it not due to the current limitation of not being able to determine reading/pattern difficulty properly? If fast single taps were rated higher, suddenly alternating would be a really easy way to gain pp. The proper way to handle the issue would be to somehow determine reading/pattern difficulty only and not increase the rating for single taps. The system shouldn't be favouring certain play styles over others. I understand determining reading/pattern difficulty is not an easy task, but I think it is much better to have it stay as it is for now until a solution comes rather than make single taps worth more.
I might be wrong here, but I think the system can't even measure, nor does really care whether you alternated or single tapped any given part, the difficulty comes from not being able to rate those very fast very small jumps higher, without overrating spaced streams like freedom dive or rungran - dmc etc.
- something like 1/2 of the radius of the actual hitcircles could be substracted from jumps so that spaced streams are not considered as big fast jumps technically (since you stay on circles almost alll the time)
- also, being able to measure the angle change required for going from one note to the next could help to determine how hard they actually are in the case of very small jumps (just a simple line of notes that can be streamed like Holy Orders, or jumps like the ones in Lesjuh's Talent Shredder, or something in between). On the contrary, small-medium jumps are harder to play in a line, than at sharp angles for me at least.
I know I don't know much about the technical difficulties, so probably what I'm saying isn't helpful, I'm just throwing out some ideas, in case it can be of some use.
- something like 1/2 of the radius of the actual hitcircles could be substracted from jumps so that spaced streams are not considered as big fast jumps technically (since you stay on circles almost alll the time)
- also, being able to measure the angle change required for going from one note to the next could help to determine how hard they actually are in the case of very small jumps (just a simple line of notes that can be streamed like Holy Orders, or jumps like the ones in Lesjuh's Talent Shredder, or something in between). On the contrary, small-medium jumps are harder to play in a line, than at sharp angles for me at least.
I know I don't know much about the technical difficulties, so probably what I'm saying isn't helpful, I'm just throwing out some ideas, in case it can be of some use.
If alting is that much easier than the singletap players would alt the map, if they don't alt it when they should alt it then they are incapable of playing the map and do not deserve to performance points. Also the problem is more the fact that it's very hard to determine a spaced stream from a fast singletap jump.Mathsma wrote:
I don't understand increasing fast single taps. If the issue with them is that the maps are underrated, then is it not due to the current limitation of not being able to determine reading/pattern difficulty properly? If fast single taps were rated higher, suddenly alternating would be a really easy way to gain pp. The proper way to handle the issue would be to somehow determine reading/pattern difficulty only and not increase the rating for single taps. The system shouldn't be favouring certain play styles over others. I understand determining reading/pattern difficulty is not an easy task, but I think it is much better to have it stay as it is for now until a solution comes rather than make single taps worth more.
Tom94 wrote:
HR would be rewarded more if the scores would be appropriate. I think the reason for lower-level players to not be good with HR is because it simply is not fun to practice high AR, OD and CS rather than speed.
If you provide me specific examples of scores with HR you think are unterrated I can discuss this better.
In both these cases, the HR scores were much harder to obtain than the DT scores - and most people around my rank have a much lower accuracy on HR than I do. I've been playing with HR for months, and still get more pp for DT scores that are easier to get. Especially Koigokoro (that we all know is overrated), where I didn't get anything near an FC and got less than 94% on, which is worth more than a higher AR/OD/CS 96.45% FC with HD on top of that. It doesn't really make sense. Everybody seems to know now that AR8 DT jump maps give pp way too easily, while high OD/AR/CS don't really live up to their difficulty in terms of pp. Obviously, DT should give more pp on the same map than HR, but the relative difference in difficulty x reward between maps is much too unbalanced in my opinion.
I think that OD specifically should be given more of a boost. People who can play with HR generally have no trouble with the AR, and the HP change is irrelevant for a pp-worthy FC. CS should definitely matter, but if we're working in an accuracy-based system, higher ODs with high accuracy should be rewarded more than high speeds with low OD (where it's much easier to get high accuracy), and obviously the two combined should be a very rewarding combo.
Also, another thing.
HD gives no pp at all.
Really.
Lasty,
Drezi wrote:
without overrating spaced streams like freedom dive or rungran - dmc etc.
Drezi wrote:
without overrating spaced streams like freedom dive
Haha, what.Drezi wrote:
overrating spaced streams like freedom dive
did something get recalcualted
Tess wrote:
Also, another thing.
HD gives no pp at all.
Really.
yes it does
ofcourse having a lower acc will give you less pp, especially on od7+dt the difference is big
read the changelog https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changeloghandsome wrote:
did something get recalcualted
[Tom94] Slightly reduce value of aim and slightly increase value of accuracy in osu! standard.
lewa rank 1 on next play hype?...
lewa rank 1 on next play hype?...
HR scores might be SLIGHTLY underrated, but the pp they give is well-deserved. The reason for playing HR is if you feel that your accuracy is sufficient that you can perform better than you would nomod. Getting 96% accuracy doesn't actually mean much when you're playing HR, where, as you said, the OD is what's most important. At that accuracy, the HR pp bonus would be mostly from the smaller CS (+aim pp), and the accuracy bonus would probably be very negligible, comparable to a 98.5%+ OD8 nomod. What I'm trying to say here, if you still don't get it, is that HR gives sufficient pp if you are able to maintain high accuracy. The effort required to get 96% HR FC, is equivalent to at regular DT FC.Tess wrote:
In both these cases, the HR scores were much harder to obtain than the DT scores - and most people around my rank have a much lower accuracy on HR than I do. I've been playing with HR for months, and still get more pp for DT scores that are easier to get. Especially Koigokoro (that we all know is overrated), where I didn't get anything near an FC and got less than 94% on, which is worth more than a higher AR/OD/CS 96.45% FC with HD on top of that. It doesn't really make sense. Everybody seems to know now that AR8 DT jump maps give pp way too easily, while high OD/AR/CS don't really live up to their difficulty in terms of pp. Obviously, DT should give more pp on the same map than HR, but the relative difference in difficulty x reward between maps is much too unbalanced in my opinion.
I think that OD specifically should be given more of a boost. People who can play with HR generally have no trouble with the AR, and the HP change is irrelevant for a pp-worthy FC. CS should definitely matter, but if we're working in an accuracy-based system, higher ODs with high accuracy should be rewarded more than high speeds with low OD (where it's much easier to get high accuracy), and obviously the two combined should be a very rewarding combo.
Also, another thing.
HD gives no pp at all.
Really.
Also HD gives a bunch of pp, although a percentage so it scales higher up. That map you're comparing, is 3x100 comapred to 1x100, there is probably a 20pp difference when you take out of the HD of the 3x100 play.
First of all, what is a "regular" DT FC? That's a pretty broad term you're using there. Second, if you'd say that "Regular" DT FC would be 97% on an AR8 Insane, then I disagree. It is much easier to maintain high accuracy with DT than it is with HR (unless the map is OD7 or lower). I'm quite sure that there are many more players able to get a 97% DT FC on an AR8 Insane than there are players who can get a 96% HR FC on an AR9 Insane. Then again, I'm also using pretty broad terms here, since Yakujinsama no Couple Dance is AR8 and nobody has FC'd that with DT as far as I know.handsome wrote:
The effort required to get 96% HR FC, is equivalent to at regular DT FC.
I understand that the pp HR gives scales upwards the higher your accuracy, but my point is that that scale's range is too low. So, let's say that a map's given pp with HR would scale from 100 to 200, I think it should scale from 120 to 220, so to speak. It shouldn't be a match for DT, but it definitely should be rewarded better.
Fixed that for you.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
lewaBikko rank 1 on next play hype?...
wait, so i just lost 30pp because of this or what? o_osilmarilen wrote:
read the changelog https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changeloghandsome wrote:
did something get recalcualted
Yes. I'm pretty sure it was a nerf to everyone's pp though, so your rank may not have even gone down. It hasn't updated for everyone yet. I'm yet to see someone who actually gained pp from the update.NazzzF wrote:
wait, so i just lost 30pp because of this or what? o_o
i gained 9pp
people who are more focused on acc than on aim gained pp
people who are more focused on acc than on aim gained pp
I know that was the updates intention, I just thought that maybe aim was nerfed more than acc was buffed so no one saw a pp increase. Guess I was wrong.silmarilen wrote:
i gained 9pp
people who are more focused on acc than on aim gained pp
Your acc is pretty damn high on the other hand, I guess majority of people lost pp though.
>people knowing their exact amount of pp
Zare wrote:
>people knowing their exact amount of pp
it probably did, play a map
question when will our top ranks change around a bit to reflect the new pp value?
I would like to expand on this because it's an interesting point that tends to get a bit overlooked in discussions of HR pp.handsome wrote:
The reason for playing HR is if you feel that your accuracy is sufficient that you can perform better than you would nomod.
AR10 doesn't give any extra pp, higher hp drain doesn't give any extra pp. When you play HR, you're going for the extra aim pp from smaller circles and the extra accuracy pp from the higher OD and, depending on exactly how pp works, probably a negligible amount of extra speed pp from the higher OD. We can ignore the speed component of that.
Assuming you can read AR10 sufficiently well and have good enough aim to play the HR version of a map, you can FC the map with HR and get the extra aim pp without any problems. There have been suggestions that small circle size may be underrated (which, because of the way pp works, would be equivalent to saying that large spacing is overrated) and if that's true, it would cause you to receive less aim pp than you deserve - but aim for an average player is probably about 1/3 of their pre-HR pp on a map and even if HR on that specific map gives a 30% bonus to aim (I'm just making up a number because HR's effect on aim is calculated on a per-map basis by treating the HR version of the map as an entirely new map), which is pretty damn significant, you'd only notice it on average boosting your pp by 10% on average. If that's the only bonus pp you get from HR, you'll probably feel like it's significantly underweighted.
The biggest thing that makes HR feel underweighted is that most of its pp gain is locked up in accuracy and most players aren't capable of tapping into that. Let's say you're playing an OD8 map, for example. For any possible OD8 accuracy, there will be a corresponding OD10 accuracy (it's possible that it won't be possible to get either or both accuracies *exactly* on that map, but that doesn't matter) that, assuming normal distribution of hit timings and no outliers (the latter isn't a good assumption, but it's one you almost have to make), would likely require the same level of actual player accuracy to be able to achieve. Now, depending on what assumptions you want to make about things like retries (If you check Full Tablet's posts in this thread, he's done a very thorough analysis of options regarding that), you may end up with different corresponding accuracies - but the important thing is that, given reasonable assumptions, you should be able to choose OD8 and OD10 accuracies for a map that would require the same amount of effort to obtain. If you can play the HR version of the map properly and can read AR10 exactly as well as you can read the nomod AR of the map (and assuming you have good enough finger control to not have a significant amount of outlier hits), then, assuming the system is making reasonable assumptions and using reasonable formulas, you should be getting the same amount of accuracy pp on OD10 as you would on OD8 unless you can SS the map on OD8. When you can SS a map on OD8, it means you can get better accuracy on the map than the hit windows for that OD are able to distinguish and increasing the OD will credit you with the extra accuracy pp the lower OD cheated you out of. If you can't SS the map on OD8, you were already getting the accuracy pp you deserved and increasing the OD won't help you. The average player probably isn't much (if at all) more accurate than being able to occasionally SS OD8 maps, so the average player can't get accuracy pp from HR. If you're playing HR and wondering where all your pp is, that's where it is. It's locked up in the accuracy you don't have.
Now, to be fair, tom posted the formula somewhere that pp uses for accuracy and iirc it's too harsh for accuracies farther from 100% and that does penalize most players who use HR, but ultimately, the point remains: if you can't SS a map without HR, don't expect it to give you anything but aim pp.
Well it must. There's no way the scores will remain the same but our total pp changing lol, unless there is a change to how total pp/weighting works, which isn't what the update is doing.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
question when will our top ranks change around a bit to reflect the new pp value?
Is it really so hard to take note that there's been a change to how pp works and then playing a song and looking at the difference? No knowing your pp involved.Zare wrote:
>people knowing their exact amount of pp
I lost 11ppBassist Vinyl wrote:
[Tom94] Slightly reduce value of aim and slightly increase value of accuracy in osu! standard.
lewa rank 1 on next play hype?...
what part of SLIGHTLY do you not understand
dragonhuman losing 100+ ppthelewa wrote:
I lost 11ppBassist Vinyl wrote:
[Tom94] Slightly reduce value of aim and slightly increase value of accuracy in osu! standard.
lewa rank 1 on next play hype?...
what part of SLIGHTLY do you not understand
Topic Starter
I'd just like to note, that basing the formula on a normal distribution is still something I want to do at some point.GhostFrog wrote:
[great explanation]handsome wrote:
The reason for playing HR is if you feel that your accuracy is sufficient that you can perform better than you would nomod.
this post should be linked everytime someone says hr is underratedGhostFrog wrote:
bunch of text
tl;dr: if you can't SS a map without HR, don't expect it to give you anything but aim pp.
It explains why things are the way they are very well, but this assumption quoted is not true as far as I know (?? not sure, correct me if I'm wrong), and that would be part of the reason why people have a hard time getting pp from HR unless they can keep the number of 100s they're getting with it to a comparable amount (since in that case they're getting the aim pp, and they're getting more or at least not much less acc pp). If the quoted assumption is not true, that would mean lower accs on high ODs are in fact a bit undervalued.GhostFrog wrote:
assuming the system is making reasonable assumptions and using reasonable formulas, you should be getting the same amount of accuracy pp on OD10 as you would on OD8 unless you can SS the map on OD8.
j/w if/when it will happen, because it seems weird that some of my highest yield scores that also have abysmal acc havent changed at all yet 16 total pp did...Bassist Vinyl wrote:
question when will our top ranks change around a bit to reflect the new pp value?
Not sure if this has been said already but, I feel like some ar9 maps just aren't giving enough PP. DT seems to be the only way to get good amounts recently.
For example, this map on eXtra, https://osu.ppy.sh/b/231917?m=0 got me 217pp, which is a lot really.
Yet if I was to FC this map on FREEDOM (a lot harder) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/283705?m=0 with similar accuracy, I'd only get 220pp.
It leaves me with no option of rank gains for some of these maps even though they take a lot of skill to full combo.
I have no idea how much work goes into making the PP system work, but I'm grateful for what you have done. Sorry if I'm asking the impossible haha ^^
For example, this map on eXtra, https://osu.ppy.sh/b/231917?m=0 got me 217pp, which is a lot really.
Yet if I was to FC this map on FREEDOM (a lot harder) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/283705?m=0 with similar accuracy, I'd only get 220pp.
It leaves me with no option of rank gains for some of these maps even though they take a lot of skill to full combo.
I have no idea how much work goes into making the PP system work, but I'm grateful for what you have done. Sorry if I'm asking the impossible haha ^^
There is a big difference between certain accuracy on OD9 and the same accuracy on OD7.Neroh wrote:
Not sure if this has been said already but, I feel like some ar9 maps just aren't giving enough PP. DT seems to be the only way to get good amounts recently.
For example, this map on eXtra, https://osu.ppy.sh/b/231917?m=0 got me 217pp, which is a lot really.
Yet if I was to FC this map on FREEDOM (a lot harder) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/283705?m=0 with similar accuracy, I'd only get 220pp.
It leaves me with no option of rank gains for some of these maps even though they take a lot of skill to full combo.
I have no idea how much work goes into making the PP system work, but I'm grateful for what you have done. Sorry if I'm asking the impossible haha ^^
The problem of this change concerning the weight of acc. is that on very hard song, at a 'pro' level, with acc. near 100%, the global feedback is that accuracy gives to much pp.
On the contrary, that's right, at a 'common' level, fc an easier song in hr with 97.5% can give you less pp than if you SS it with nomod whereas 97.5% in hr can be more difficult to achieve than SS + nomod, all the more it is also harder to aim with hr.
So, accuracy appears to be more 'mis-weighted' than underweighted or overweighted. And so, rather than changing the weight of acc. (maybe) it would be better to decrease to a lower base the exponential function used to compute accuracy while keeping the fucntion in the same mean average (so that the weight, compared with aim and speed, remains the same). Thus acc. would give a fairer amount of pp in the two cases I described above (well at least I suppose, I can be wrong).
On the contrary, that's right, at a 'common' level, fc an easier song in hr with 97.5% can give you less pp than if you SS it with nomod whereas 97.5% in hr can be more difficult to achieve than SS + nomod, all the more it is also harder to aim with hr.
So, accuracy appears to be more 'mis-weighted' than underweighted or overweighted. And so, rather than changing the weight of acc. (maybe) it would be better to decrease to a lower base the exponential function used to compute accuracy while keeping the fucntion in the same mean average (so that the weight, compared with aim and speed, remains the same). Thus acc. would give a fairer amount of pp in the two cases I described above (well at least I suppose, I can be wrong).
Not nearly at a high level, but just dropping this here for anybody that could enlighten me on this a bit.
I nearly full combod https://osu.ppy.sh/b/351513?m=0 yesterday, playing me at around ~#400 for the song. I expected a few pp out of it, but I didn't get anything. Is this because the star difficulty/ppv2 calculated difficulty for the song is incredibly low compared to all my other "top ranks"? If so, what is factored into the star rating system?
I nearly full combod https://osu.ppy.sh/b/351513?m=0 yesterday, playing me at around ~#400 for the song. I expected a few pp out of it, but I didn't get anything. Is this because the star difficulty/ppv2 calculated difficulty for the song is incredibly low compared to all my other "top ranks"? If so, what is factored into the star rating system?
Have a look at the star rating, it's 3.47. I took a look at the plays from near the bottom of your top performances and there's Mizutani Runa - Philosophyz, which has a star rating of 3.58. It was also a higher acc score than your tear rain and an fc and both the songs are od8. Star rating is a good indication of how much pp a map will give.Cinagro wrote:
Not nearly at a high level, but just dropping this here for anybody that could enlighten me on this a bit.
I nearly full combod https://osu.ppy.sh/b/351513?m=0 yesterday, playing me at around ~#400 for the song. I expected a few pp out of it, but I didn't get anything. Is this because the star difficulty/ppv2 calculated difficulty for the song is incredibly low compared to all my other "top ranks"? If so, what is factored into the star rating system?
Cinagro play a LOT of 4.5 star maps and get 97.5% to 98.5% and you should see your rank go up. Anything less than that would be a waste of time for you. As you rank up more and see the maps give less (or you're starting 99%/100% them) then play .1 higher stuff, if that's the same result then go up .1 more. You should improve as a player and go up ranks as time passes.
Group the maps by difficulty and sort by difficulty, then select 5 stars (5 stars shows 4.5 to 5.5) start from the top and work your way down.
Group the maps by difficulty and sort by difficulty, then select 5 stars (5 stars shows 4.5 to 5.5) start from the top and work your way down.
I am not sure how important the length of the maps is in the algorithm. But I am feeling length should be weighted slightly higher. (It shows consistency)
Sometimes I feel that it doesn't matter much if the map is 1:30 minutes long, or 3 minutes long. (I am sure it does matter) Just that long songs are harder just because of the amount of time you need to stay focused at once.
Just a thought.
Sometimes I feel that it doesn't matter much if the map is 1:30 minutes long, or 3 minutes long. (I am sure it does matter) Just that long songs are harder just because of the amount of time you need to stay focused at once.
Just a thought.
I could give it an evaluation too. I've seen thousands of "less than a 1 minute" replays, which are given around 240-260+ pps. Ofc they are with DT mods. So here's the fact. It is really easy to farm pp with short 140-170 bpm maps. You put DT on them, and whoala 1 minute fun for a ton of pp and I guess the 2 or 3 minute ones are given the same amount of pp as I've seen :/xasuma wrote:
I am not sure how important the length of the maps is in the algorithm. But I am feeling length should be weighted slightly higher. (It shows consistency)
Sometimes I feel that it doesn't matter much if the map is 1:30 minutes long, or 3 minutes long. (I am sure it does matter) Just that long songs are harder just because of the amount of time you need to stay focused at once.
Just a thought.
i dont know, if i compare maps of equal star diff but different lengths i get a different feeling. for example comparing this with this, the TV Sized map is just more difficult than any 1:30 "section" you could cut out of the longer one. In fact, if it weren't for the build-up on the last kiai + the kiai itself i would say its star diff was a bit too high.xasuma wrote:
I am not sure how important the length of the maps is in the algorithm. But I am feeling length should be weighted slightly higher. (It shows consistency)
Sometimes I feel that it doesn't matter much if the map is 1:30 minutes long, or 3 minutes long. (I am sure it does matter) Just that long songs are harder just because of the amount of time you need to stay focused at once.
Just a thought.
you need to be focused longer, but the skill required is less intense overall so it's easier to be consistent.
There seems to be a cap on how much length matters though, because marathons aren't OP sources of PP.
So basically, you think longer maps should be worth more pp? A lot of the top plays I see aren't even tv size though, there is 3+ minute songs in the mix. I think map length in relation to pp is fine as it is.higurush wrote:
I could give it an evaluation too. I've seen thousands of "less than a 1 minute" replays, which are given around 240-260+ pps. Ofc they are with DT mods. So here's the fact. It is really easy to farm pp with short 140-170 bpm maps. You put DT on them, and whoala 1 minute fun for a ton of pp and I guess the 2 or 3 minute ones are given the same amount of pp as I've seen :/
I think longer maps are better for more consistent players and tv-size is more beneficial for people who spam retry maps and maybe aren't as consistent to keep up a good play for a longer time. Some people would be simply better at one style than the other, I think it's quite balanced.
Maybe they should worth more in some cases.Rewben2 wrote:
So basically, you think longer maps should be worth more pp? A lot of the top plays I see aren't even tv size though, there is 3+ minute songs in the mix. I think map length in relation to pp is fine as it is.
I think longer maps are better for more consistent players and tv-size is more beneficial for people who spam retry maps and maybe aren't as consistent to keep up a good play for a longer time. Some people would be simply better at one style than the other, I think it's quite balanced.
Let's say there is a TV size map+DT - it will be around 1 minute - and there's a longer version+DT - it will be around 3 minutes. Let's say the two maps contain the same elements (longer version = play tv size 3 times). The pp evaluator will say it will be the same difficulty, because everything is the same and will give the same amount of pp for both of them. What if you can DT the 1 minute map easily, then when you would do the same with the longer version, you would get tired at 2 minutes and fail the map.
<The same case without DT applies.>
Also if you are playing a song compilation with the same difficulty and every setting being the same as another map. They would give the same amount of pp. However, there is higher chance of missing in the longer map than in the shorter one. This way, you will play the marathon map only once or twice and play the shorter one a ton of times. There was a problem back in the days of people not playing the short maps at all, because it wouldn't give them as much score point as the longer ones would, but this case flipped over and less and less people playing the longer maps. It's a never-ending problem with a ton of reasoning behind everything..
That's what I meant.
copypasting the same map 3 times makes the star rating go up, it's just that the amount it rises is weightedhigurush wrote:
Let's say there is a TV size map+DT - it will be around 1 minute - and there's a longer version+DT - it will be around 3 minutes. Let's say the two maps contain the same elements (longer version = play tv size 3 times). The pp evaluator will say it will be the same difficulty, because everything is the same and will give the same amount of pp for both of them.
http://i.imgur.com/lV5BKmc.png
You do get more pp from maps with higher max combo. It's not that significant though in comparison to star rating except with really long maps (The marathon and this diff have almost identical star ratings, but the marathon gives a lot more pp (or at the very least, it gave a lot more tp and pp is usually extremely similar)). If you did have a map that contained 2 copies of another map, it would have a higher star rating. I don't know how much higher, but the max combo scaling for pp is relatively low because it only attempts to account for consistency, while in theory leaving the added difficulty from the extra length to the star rating system.
the extra pp on the marathon is most likely because it has more notes so you get more acc
Actually, yeah, you're right. I remembered there being a bigger difference between them. The bonus pp you get from higher max combo really flattens out after a certain point, so the 1275 max combo from In the Middle of the Night gives almost the same bonus as the 9289 combo from the marathon diff. I know there was some amount of combo scaling for tp from looking at pp gains of SS plays on a lot of maps and it probably carried over to pp. (I only checked the aim and speed tp values; I used SS just to avoid any possible accuracy or slight-combo-miss scaling on aim and speed)
What I overall meant with my comment is that playing long maps are not even worth struggling for. You're better off playing random TV size/short maps if you want pp.
Example:
Various Artists - Nightcore Mix Compilation [Party!] +DT (97.57%) >> 178pp
Primastella - Koigokoro [Delis' Insane] +DT (97.89%) >> 203pp
Koigokoro is way easier..
Also since the ?aim? nerf update, it's a bit ridiculous for the differences in jump maps vs etc
Hatsune Miku - Homework Crisis [Let's Jump!!] (99.56%) >> 206pp
Primastella - Koigokoro [Delis' Insane] +DT (97.89%) >> 203pp
Koigokoro is still easier and it's just a slight difference.
What's more I'm around #100 on Nightcore mix compilation and Homework Crisis, and on Koigokoro i'm like around #1000..
Where's the rank bonus? And as for the Homework Crisis, the "Jump" nerf was this harsh?
Example:
Various Artists - Nightcore Mix Compilation [Party!] +DT (97.57%) >> 178pp
Primastella - Koigokoro [Delis' Insane] +DT (97.89%) >> 203pp
Koigokoro is way easier..
Also since the ?aim? nerf update, it's a bit ridiculous for the differences in jump maps vs etc
Hatsune Miku - Homework Crisis [Let's Jump!!] (99.56%) >> 206pp
Primastella - Koigokoro [Delis' Insane] +DT (97.89%) >> 203pp
Koigokoro is still easier and it's just a slight difference.
What's more I'm around #100 on Nightcore mix compilation and Homework Crisis, and on Koigokoro i'm like around #1000..
Where's the rank bonus? And as for the Homework Crisis, the "Jump" nerf was this harsh?
Then the "do the same as the crowd" method really is there.- [ U z z I ] - wrote:
There isn't a rank bonus anymore...
Even if there is no rank bonus the mentioned and complained maps should worth more pp considering their "real difficulty"..
Well its just a matter of looking at most people's top play's length. I just think it's slightly underrated.
As someone said above, it would be better for people who are more consistent, that is exactly my point. Being consistent should earn you something, it's a skill not just a play style option.
Right? Lol
As someone said above, it would be better for people who are more consistent, that is exactly my point. Being consistent should earn you something, it's a skill not just a play style option.
Right? Lol
So you think it is the same as with Approach Rate? AR9=AR10 in star difficulty. (this AR stuff is okay though)xasuma wrote:
Well its just a matter of looking at most people's top play's length. I just think it's slightly underrated.
As someone said above, it would be better for people who are more consistent, that is exactly my point. Being consistent should earn you something, it's a skill not just a play style option.
Right? Lol
koigokoro is not way easier, if it was way easier it would give way less pp. you think it is easier because you are better at the things the map requires of you (high bpm medium size jump patterns with a couple of burts streams)higurush wrote:
What I overall meant with my comment is that playing long maps are not even worth struggling for. You're better off playing random TV size/short maps if you want pp.
Example:
Various Artists - Nightcore Mix Compilation [Party!] +DT (97.57%) >> 178pp
Primastella - Koigokoro [Delis' Insane] +DT (97.89%) >> 203pp
Koigokoro is way easier..
Also since the ?aim? nerf update, it's a bit ridiculous for the differences in jump maps vs etc
Hatsune Miku - Homework Crisis [Let's Jump!!] (99.56%) >> 206pp
Primastella - Koigokoro [Delis' Insane] +DT (97.89%) >> 203pp
Koigokoro is still easier and it's just a slight difference.
What's more I'm around #100 on Nightcore mix compilation and Homework Crisis, and on Koigokoro i'm like around #1000..
Where's the rank bonus? And as for the Homework Crisis, the "Jump" nerf was this harsh?
homework crisis is ar9 compared to koigokoro ar9.6 thus it feels harder to read, while the map itself probably isnt much harder
koigokoro is also od9 (od7+dt) while homework crisis is only od7, the koigokoro score probably got close to the same amount of acc as the homework crisis score got.
I feel fine with long jumps and high spacing maps as well (Remote Control HRHD, With A Dance Number+HR (max AR/HP/OD unranked)/Talent Shredder0108 +HR (max AR/HP/OD unranked)/Saten unranked maps), etc, but I accept your reasons.silmarilen wrote:
koigokoro is not way easier, if it was way easier it would give way less pp. you think it is easier because you are better at the things the map requires of you (high bpm medium size jump patterns with a couple of burts streams)
homework crisis is ar9 compared to koigokoro ar9.6 thus it feels harder to read, while the map itself probably isnt much harder
koigokoro is also od9 (od7+dt) while homework crisis is only od7, the koigokoro score probably got close to the same amount of acc as the homework crisis score got.
What about the Nightcore Compilation, which is connected to this thread's new problem: long maps are not worth playing and struggling for?
i dont know about that map because i never played it, but i agree that longer maps are underrated compared to shorter ones.
the problem is how far you are willing to go with boosting them, what if it ends up the other way around? what if the bonus for length becomes so big that clearly easier maps will give more pp.
the problem is how far you are willing to go with boosting them, what if it ends up the other way around? what if the bonus for length becomes so big that clearly easier maps will give more pp.
Well there's a solution for that too. Limit the maximum amount of percentage bonus or constant bonus for the length of the maps. This way the 1 hour Within Temptation Marathon map won't end up as top pp sourcesilmarilen wrote:
i dont know about that map because i never played it, but i agree that longer maps are underrated compared to shorter ones.
the problem is how far you are willing to go with boosting them, what if it ends up the other way around? what if the bonus for length becomes so big that clearly easier maps will give more pp.
It should be very little if it is boosted. I am not asking for anything dramatic. Probably something most people won't notice much. But enough for it to matter to those who do play longer songs. I am sure tom can handle the logistics of it and make it work. As long as he wishes to do so.silmarilen wrote:
i dont know about that map because i never played it, but i agree that longer maps are underrated compared to shorter ones.
the problem is how far you are willing to go with boosting them, what if it ends up the other way around? what if the bonus for length becomes so big that clearly easier maps will give more pp.
something like that already exists in the way that more notes means more acc pp
Well, if it exists, it's still not enough to make me play longer maps and struggle on them for better acc. Because it isn't worth the pain. Still getting more pp if I DT some random TVsize map. Time spent/pp rate is better.silmarilen wrote:
something like that already exists in the way that more notes means more acc pp
It's like I play those longer maps once in a while, because I like the song and that's it.
Hmm, let me start out by saying.. This might just be due to my personal playstyle but I dont believe "tricky spacing" is weighted enough right now..
Ive been waiting a while after this songs release before writing anything on the subject
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/394808&m=0
Luvatorrrrry landing at sub 5 stars, insane techniques landing at 5,5..
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/155288
These two map will be my examples but it shows in quite a few Hanzer/ skystar/HW maps i believe (and more mappers are doing sections like these of late as well)
Now they are both at over 20k plays~ neither of the leader boards is really filled with FCs yet and they both have some lower acc plays towards the bottom (Bs ;d)
For people who dont play 5 star maps, here is a 5,44 star leaderboard for comparison
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/94506
Now, i have never played the Amatsuki map and im currently away for work.. But i hope its a fairly normal map in terms of its mapping.
So anyways, what i believe is the problem with the first two maps are the quarterbeat spacings.. Sudden changes to your movement... Be it two notes or four in a stream that has spaces between the stacks.. Heck in luvatorrrrrys case i think most people have the speed to singletap most of the quarterbeats and combos are still beeing lost
So, if possible i think ... Sudden shifts in spacing/speed needs an inspection, a spacing shift for a prolonged period of time aint too bad but when it varies with every 3 notes for a period of time mistakes happen ;d
Sorry about lazy links and typos if there are any, as i mentioned im away for work so this is all written on my phone~ in the bathroom~ over and out!
Ive been waiting a while after this songs release before writing anything on the subject
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/394808&m=0
Luvatorrrrry landing at sub 5 stars, insane techniques landing at 5,5..
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/155288
These two map will be my examples but it shows in quite a few Hanzer/ skystar/HW maps i believe (and more mappers are doing sections like these of late as well)
Now they are both at over 20k plays~ neither of the leader boards is really filled with FCs yet and they both have some lower acc plays towards the bottom (Bs ;d)
For people who dont play 5 star maps, here is a 5,44 star leaderboard for comparison
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/94506
Now, i have never played the Amatsuki map and im currently away for work.. But i hope its a fairly normal map in terms of its mapping.
So anyways, what i believe is the problem with the first two maps are the quarterbeat spacings.. Sudden changes to your movement... Be it two notes or four in a stream that has spaces between the stacks.. Heck in luvatorrrrrys case i think most people have the speed to singletap most of the quarterbeats and combos are still beeing lost
So, if possible i think ... Sudden shifts in spacing/speed needs an inspection, a spacing shift for a prolonged period of time aint too bad but when it varies with every 3 notes for a period of time mistakes happen ;d
Sorry about lazy links and typos if there are any, as i mentioned im away for work so this is all written on my phone~ in the bathroom~ over and out!
It has been discussed some pages ago. The example was the val0108 maps, especially the 260+ bpm ones. They don't have streams, but have extreme spacing, yet they are not even weighted correctly. For eg. if you SS the With a Dance Number, you won't even get 250pp, which is sad, because the map is around the difficulty of a HRHD Remote Control. Same with Scarlet Rose, Talent Shredder, No39, YuYuMetal, etc.iaceo wrote:
Hmm, let me start out by saying.. This might just be due to my personal playstyle but I dont believe "tricky spacing" is weighted enough right now..
It is hard to weight them because that would affect a ton of maps in an overrated way and they solved the issue of leaving them out of the top pp list. Though it could be solved by adding them to a "Special weighting", but that would cause a lot of controversial argument between players of how "this and that" map is not in the list, which could be solved by creating a unique forum for them, but that would be too much work:D
I did some skimming for some 10 pages back.. Searched val0108 and looked for hits in this thread for pretty much a year.. I came up with some fragments discussing a previous discussion on the matter ^^
But from what i gathered it was partially about single tapping speeds..
I personally find the spacing in his maps rather fluid, which is not what im trying to convey here.
The maps that i mentioned are maps that have lots of variations in speed
A split up stream or even a stream placed as stacked doubles. Stuff you need well timed jerky moves for or constant variation in movement speed
Whileas with the val maps its pretty fluid which requires (in my opinion) a different kind of control. What im looking for here is for, a way of detecting ongoing variations throughout the song! Be it speed changes or movement.
I believe continuously adapting to stuff like this aint rewarded enough and my examples for maps doing this sort of (I believe i read someone calling it) "overflowous" type of moves.
But from what i gathered it was partially about single tapping speeds..
I personally find the spacing in his maps rather fluid, which is not what im trying to convey here.
The maps that i mentioned are maps that have lots of variations in speed
A split up stream or even a stream placed as stacked doubles. Stuff you need well timed jerky moves for or constant variation in movement speed
Whileas with the val maps its pretty fluid which requires (in my opinion) a different kind of control. What im looking for here is for, a way of detecting ongoing variations throughout the song! Be it speed changes or movement.
I believe continuously adapting to stuff like this aint rewarded enough and my examples for maps doing this sort of (I believe i read someone calling it) "overflowous" type of moves.