today silmarilen agreed with me
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)
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I guess the main misconception I have is more tries to FC != harder. Paradoxical statement, but that's what my issue boils down to. The harder the map, the more PP. The harder to FC or SS, the more PP. If someone puts the effort in to learn a map then (of course, in my own opinion) they should be rewarded for it, not put off even attempting it (AKA just no-mod SS over FL S).
Effort != PP. Gotcha.
Effort != PP. Gotcha.
the amount of pp from a play, as i understand it, is based upon how quickly the map requires you to move your cursor, how hard it is to land on the notes, and how precisely the notes are tapped. I don't think such hard to quantify metric such as 'memorizing' a map is taken into consideration because it does not directly make the map technically harder in terms of how you have to move your fingers.
Should FL really, REALLY be encouraged though?Shimatora wrote:
Precisely why I said Flashlight is obsolete. Useless outside of score. The new system is excluding FL as something that actually makes the game harder and you should be rewarded for using. Basically, we both agree. I understand WHY it happens, I don't need explaining, just offering feedback.
Precisely why I said Flashlight is obsolete. Useless outside of score. The new system is excluding FL as something that actually makes the game harder and you should be rewarded for using. Basically, we both agree. I understand WHY it happens, I don't need explaining, just offering feedback.
EDIT: Bassist Vinyl, you've literally summed up ppv2 in a nutshell. That is my quote of the fucking year right there. FL is something that shouldn't be encouraged, but frowned upon.
EDIT: Bassist Vinyl, you've literally summed up ppv2 in a nutshell. That is my quote of the fucking year right there. FL is something that shouldn't be encouraged, but frowned upon.
Is There a clear thread, or maybe some kind of wiki, consisting of the factor what pp accounts in? I mean, I can guess that we take combo, accuracy, difficulty, etc.. but you know, the details. like, losing 10% pp with nofail, losing 5% pp with spunout, combo penalties you by combo^0.8/maxcombo^0.8...
would be much easier to feedback if we had a thread or wiki that consists of information that tom94 has currently given out..
Also I strongly disagree about FD4D being overrated(actually I think it is underrated.) but I agree that medium high bpm(150~180) long streams are bit overrated ). like, say, thousand 150bpm stream would be honestly not that difficult but even 32 streams of 222bpm is ridiculously hard. example would be Mendes, with it having low enough bpm to long stream with ease, it seems to have high difficulty and it gives me the most pp, while it was one of the most easiest map to 99%/FC it.
On the other hand, so called "0108 style maps" are very underrated. maybe high SV is bit underrated. dance number and scarlet rose are super hard but its difficulty is calculated very low, maybe because you don't actually have to "press the keyboard" that much to play those maps due to tons sliders. Assuming you are taking slider correctly into the difficulty, it seems like high SV is bit underrated on current calculation. I see jumps are correctly applied(according to the airman's difficulty) but maybe generally high SV, or map that consists of lots of small jumps are bit unreasonably underrated.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25271
take a look at "bloody rose" difficulty. It is not that hard, but when you play it I'm pretty sure this is hard enough to be an insane difficulty but calculated as "hard" which is ridiculous, because regular 2.49 star diffs are notably easier than this one. Compare it to https://osu.ppy.sh/b/156346&m=0 hard diff which has 2.46 diff but it is easy enough to DT it with ease. The point is, the thing that makes "bloody rose" diff hard is the high SV (which seems underrated right now)
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27639&m=0
Intense diff has 1.91 star rating? you see nearly no DT on the ranking, which indirectly tells you how hard this map is. characteristics? high SV.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27737&m=0
yeah.
would be much easier to feedback if we had a thread or wiki that consists of information that tom94 has currently given out..
Also I strongly disagree about FD4D being overrated(actually I think it is underrated.) but I agree that medium high bpm(150~180) long streams are bit overrated ). like, say, thousand 150bpm stream would be honestly not that difficult but even 32 streams of 222bpm is ridiculously hard. example would be Mendes, with it having low enough bpm to long stream with ease, it seems to have high difficulty and it gives me the most pp, while it was one of the most easiest map to 99%/FC it.
On the other hand, so called "0108 style maps" are very underrated. maybe high SV is bit underrated. dance number and scarlet rose are super hard but its difficulty is calculated very low, maybe because you don't actually have to "press the keyboard" that much to play those maps due to tons sliders. Assuming you are taking slider correctly into the difficulty, it seems like high SV is bit underrated on current calculation. I see jumps are correctly applied(according to the airman's difficulty) but maybe generally high SV, or map that consists of lots of small jumps are bit unreasonably underrated.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25271
take a look at "bloody rose" difficulty. It is not that hard, but when you play it I'm pretty sure this is hard enough to be an insane difficulty but calculated as "hard" which is ridiculous, because regular 2.49 star diffs are notably easier than this one. Compare it to https://osu.ppy.sh/b/156346&m=0 hard diff which has 2.46 diff but it is easy enough to DT it with ease. The point is, the thing that makes "bloody rose" diff hard is the high SV (which seems underrated right now)
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27639&m=0
Intense diff has 1.91 star rating? you see nearly no DT on the ranking, which indirectly tells you how hard this map is. characteristics? high SV.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27737&m=0
yeah.
https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Performance_Pointshaha5957 wrote:
Is There a clear thread, or maybe some kind of wiki, consisting of the factor what pp accounts in? I mean, I can guess that we take combo, accuracy, difficulty, etc.. but you know, the details. like, losing 10% pp with nofail, losing 5% pp with spunout, combo penalties you by combo^0.8/maxcombo^0.8...
would be much easier to feedback if we had a thread or wiki that consists of information that tom94 has currently given out..
I still maintain that long songs should be boosted.
Maybe linearly, such that easy insane tvsizes are pp farms.
With current system, TV size maps are tons of pp, while really hard maps aren't worth anything...
FL should also be boosted a bit more at long songs (3mins or more) since it is really hard to memorize everything
Maybe linearly, such that easy insane tvsizes are pp farms.
With current system, TV size maps are tons of pp, while really hard maps aren't worth anything...
FL should also be boosted a bit more at long songs (3mins or more) since it is really hard to memorize everything
There are 2 different maps with the same song and difficulty name, but one is harder. Are you sure you are comparing the same map?Cifica wrote:
discuss
Edit: they aren't the same map.
Illkryn wrote:
I think this should be attended to, bugged hard diff
Topic Starter
All beatmaps are being re-calculated to 1.5x stars, so things like that are bound to happen. As soon as everything's done pp will go back to normal, don't worry.
You have nofail on the SSCifica wrote:
discuss
about when will the pp recalculation finish?
I still see maps with wrong star difficulty...
Will graveyarded and pending maps have a recalculation of pp?
I still see maps with wrong star difficulty...
Will graveyarded and pending maps have a recalculation of pp?
have you considered the fact that you might be an exception and that you happen to be really good at high accuracy on low-medium bpm long streams?haha5957 wrote:
example would be Mendes, with it having low enough bpm to long stream with ease, it seems to have high difficulty and it gives me the most pp, while it was one of the most easiest map to 99%/FC it.
there are only 37 people who have a higher acc than you on mendes, only 11 used a mod and it's a frequently played map
most people find it difficult to break 93%
i understand that my strong point might be medium bpm stream and weakpoint might be fast SV.Akari- wrote:
have you considered the fact that you might be an exception and that you happen to be really good at high accuracy on low-medium bpm long streams?haha5957 wrote:
example would be Mendes, with it having low enough bpm to long stream with ease, it seems to have high difficulty and it gives me the most pp, while it was one of the most easiest map to 99%/FC it.
there are only 37 people who have a higher acc than you on mendes, only 11 used a mod and it's a frequently played map
most people find it difficult to break 93%
I still think High SV maps are underrated. Popular Emerald sword and Strangeprogram, Dance number, scarlet rose, even myself's map those have 2.88SV feels way too hard compared to maps that have same difficulty. This is why I am "discussing" this here. Is it just that I suck at fast SV and maybe little better on medium bpm streams? Like i said, I see nearly no doubletime on emerald sword Intense difficulty which barely has 3 star difficulty. Dance number, scarlet rose is famous for its insanity but it doesnt even have extra difficulty. They have fast SV in common.
yeah high SV maps are underrated because sliders are almost a nonfactor in difficulty calculation (calculation assumes that movement to and from a slider is 100% optimal iirc) and it doesn't help that high bpm singles are underrated unless they have big spacing like some of WWW's scoreshaha5957 wrote:
i understand that my strong point might be medium bpm stream and weakpoint might be fast SV.
I still think High SV maps are underrated. Popular Emerald sword and Strangeprogram, Dance number, scarlet rose, even myself's map those have 2.88SV feels way too hard compared to maps that have same difficulty. This is why I am "discussing" this here. Is it just that I suck at fast SV and maybe little better on medium bpm streams? Like i said, I see nearly no doubletime on emerald sword Intense difficulty which barely has 3 star difficulty. Dance number, scarlet rose is famous for its insanity but it doesnt even have extra difficulty. They have fast SV in common.
this is a difficult issue to fix though, hard sliders are the exception and not the norm, and it would be tricky to calculate the difference between spaced streams, tolerable bpm singles, and high bpm singles
It would be much easier to help out if we could know how actually slider difficulty is calculated because I really think high SV maps (or map with complex slider rhythm) are way too underrated. I generally agree with the star rating difficulty but high SV centered maps are significantly underrated
This might help you. I think the current iteration of the algorithm is the same up to overall scaling, but with exact values used where the code uses approximate values. I haven't actually looked through it, so no promises.
Also, it's very much a known issue that sliders are underrated. The difficulty lies in trying to fix that without breaking repeat sliders and sliderstreams.
Also, it's very much a known issue that sliders are underrated. The difficulty lies in trying to fix that without breaking repeat sliders and sliderstreams.
Although since the topic of single taps being undervalued to some extent came up, how much should we expect pp to change when/if a solution/change is applied to the algorithm? (relative value, i.e. "holy crap some people with have giant rank shifts" or "meh it'll affect some people but relative rankings should stay about same")
Topic Starter
Relative rankings should stay about the same since most people who are good got a lot of other good scores aside from these singletapping ones. Some people will profit, though.Oskur wrote:
Although since the topic of single taps being undervalued to some extent came up, how much should we expect pp to change when/if a solution/change is applied to the algorithm? (relative value, i.e. "holy crap some people with have giant rank shifts" or "meh it'll affect some people but relative rankings should stay about same")
Keep in mind, that this is one of the lowest priority aspects at the moment, since there are way more important things to do at a larger score and in the other modes.
I still suggest nerfing of DT (high speed or whatever) / increasing the profit from playing smaller circles, because this is just too silly
I also got absolutely nothing (it's not even in my top performance) for HR FC this thing which is very difficult https://osu.ppy.sh/s/8442
I also got absolutely nothing (it's not even in my top performance) for HR FC this thing which is very difficult https://osu.ppy.sh/s/8442
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/225490
Another: 5.36
Extra: 5.39
I FC'd the Extra. https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1721589
The Another, on the other hand, is impossible to pass for me. I'm not saying the Another is rated too low, but the Extra is rated too high. Can you give less pp for OD7 sliderjumps please, they're really not hard compared to the CS5 OD8 deathstreams on Another.
Another: 5.36
Extra: 5.39
I FC'd the Extra. https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1721589
The Another, on the other hand, is impossible to pass for me. I'm not saying the Another is rated too low, but the Extra is rated too high. Can you give less pp for OD7 sliderjumps please, they're really not hard compared to the CS5 OD8 deathstreams on Another.
Someone please explain this to me. I had like 1228pp and then after completing a song and beat my old score, I became 1213pp. My accuracy dropped like 0.31% even though in the song my accuracy only dropped by 4% compared to my old score. Now I'm having a hard time getting back ranks.
i have one question has it become harder to gain PP of maps?? i FC'd this map https://osu.ppy.sh/b/202072 with 97 % accuracy and it gave 0PP. i have also done a few long maps with 99% accuracy latley and not gaining any PP from them. it starting to bug me 
I dont really get this, wont this elevate only the players who are really active? because not all of us can play alot,like ALOT (8-10) hours per day like some of osu players o mostly can sit 1-2hours, so wont this leave me and the other players who arent as active as th"active" players behind?
4%? Like, 95% -> 91%? That's a lot. In fact, that example would be almost twice the 100/50 count. If you lost that much PP, it was probably one of your higher-ranking songs on which you had comparatively good accuracy. If you want it back, you need to beat your score again with the kind of accuracy you used to have on it.GxArchery wrote:
Someone please explain this to me. I had like 1228pp and then after completing a song and beat my old score, I became 1213pp. My accuracy dropped like 0.31% even though in the song my accuracy only dropped by 4% compared to my old score. Now I'm having a hard time getting back ranks.
Obviously. This isn't the "No Player Left Behind Act." osu!'s not going to hand out participation awards so everyone can feel good about themselves. It's a leaderboard. A ranking. A measure of who is better than who. Of course someone that works harder is going to do better. You're telling me you want to look better than people who are pouring in vastly more time and effort than you? How is that fair at all?valixas125 wrote:
I dont really get this, wont this elevate only the players who are really active? because not all of us can play alot,like ALOT (8-10) hours per day like some of osu players o mostly can sit 1-2hours, so wont this leave me and the other players who arent as active as th"active" players behind?
If you want to have a good rank, work for it. If you can't, you'll have to deal with a lower rank. It's not like it changes the game and prevents you from playing or anything.
No like 99% accuracy and I dropped to 95% with HD,HR mods on .XGeneral2000 wrote:
4%? Like, 95% -> 91%? That's a lot. In fact, that example would be almost twice the 100/50 count. If you lost that much PP, it was probably one of your higher-ranking songs on which you had comparatively good accuracy. If you want it back, you need to beat your score again with the kind of accuracy you used to have on it.
not always trueXGeneral2000 wrote:
Of course someone that works harder is going to do better.
i work harder than most people at my rank did to get here and a lot of people far above my rank had to try way less than me...
i know playcount isnt everything, i also have an insanely high number of total hits.
Free ranks for participation pls
That's even worse, 99 -> 95 means you got five times as many 100s. HDHR will not outweigh that much of a drop.GxArchery wrote:
No like 99% accuracy and I dropped to 95% with HD,HR mods on .XGeneral2000 wrote:
4%? Like, 95% -> 91%? That's a lot. In fact, that example would be almost twice the 100/50 count. If you lost that much PP, it was probably one of your higher-ranking songs on which you had comparatively good accuracy. If you want it back, you need to beat your score again with the kind of accuracy you used to have on it.
Hard work vs talent issues aside, the point is that you can't complain about low rank if you're not even willing to put any time or effort into it. That's true for anything in life. Maybe you're a genius at something and can do in one hour what others would need to take 10 hours to do, but you can hardly complain if that doesn't turn out to be the case.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
not always trueXGeneral2000 wrote:
Of course someone that works harder is going to do better.
i work harder than most people at my rank did to get here and a lot of people far above my rank had to try way less than me...
i know playcount isnt everything, i also have an insanely high number of total hits.
Free ranks for participation pls
Bassist Vinyl wrote:
not always trueXGeneral2000 wrote:
Of course someone that works harder is going to do better.
i work harder than most people at my rank did to get here and a lot of people far above my rank had to try way less than me...
i know playcount isnt everything, i also have an insanely high number of total hits.
Free ranks for participation pls
that's a bit more accurate, right?XGeneral2000 wrote:
Of course someone that works harder with the same amount of talent is going to do better.
in any case, why should a measure of skill measure or take into account things that are not skill? i totally get where you're coming from, people have to work half as hard as me to get to my rank. so what? if the game provides free ranks for just playing and achieving nothing, it's not a measure of skill, it's welfare. this is a video game, not politics. genius or not, everyone has the potential to improve past their current state which means that you will get to where you want. eventually. with hard work. and if you don't want to work hard, just play some other game
if anything i just wish they removed the playcount display in this game, it's not needed for measuring skill and it's like wearing a big badge that says "i'm a goddamn retard, please spit at my feet"
On the osu! subreddit, Tillerino made an analysis of pp here. It looks pretty accurate and sound, but the thing I want to address is the graphs he made for certain songs with pp value measured against combo and accuracy.
First of all, are these accurate by any means? I mean, it's shiny and colorful so it might be.
Second, regardless of whether or not it is accurate, would/could an idea like this be implemented officially in the future? It really makes understanding the pp value gained from completing certain maps really easy with this visual representation; essentially "PP for Dummies".
First of all, are these accurate by any means? I mean, it's shiny and colorful so it might be.
Second, regardless of whether or not it is accurate, would/could an idea like this be implemented officially in the future? It really makes understanding the pp value gained from completing certain maps really easy with this visual representation; essentially "PP for Dummies".
It is an approximation, it might be useful for estimating approximately how much pp a certain score is worth, in a way that is more simple than using the real formulas.Oskur wrote:
On the osu! subreddit, Tillerino made an analysis of pp here. It looks pretty accurate and sound, but the thing I want to address is the graphs he made for certain songs with pp value measured against combo and accuracy.
First of all, are these accurate by any means? I mean, it's shiny and colorful so it might be.
Second, regardless of whether or not it is accurate, would/could an idea like this be implemented officially in the future? It really makes understanding the pp value gained from completing certain maps really easy with this visual representation; essentially "PP for Dummies".
I would like to know why my 'Best Performance' isn't changed when I, for example, have around a 98% using HR only, and then complete the same map at 100% or even 99.51% with just HR too. It's happened a few times with different maps in different situations, and I'm just wondering, how does this happen?
Your rank is still extremely low and the maps you are playing have very lenient OD (hit windows) with generally low object counts, so the bonus accuracy pp from those few 300s likely equates to less than 1.
Accuracy only becomes really important once you play more advanced maps.
Accuracy only becomes really important once you play more advanced maps.
This. HR is way too undervalued. Most players I know of around my rank aren't very adept with HR (meaning, I know nobody with a rank above 1000 that can consistently get >99% scores with HR) and that's saying something, considering players with lower ranks are very unlikely to be good at it. Small circle size + high OD + high AR can be a real pain to play with, and it should be rewarded properly in my opinion. I agree that HDDT should give more pp than HDHR, but the difference right now is much too huge. Either HR should be bumped up or DT should be toned town. Preferably the former.Kert wrote:
I still suggest nerfing of DT (high speed or whatever) / increasing the profit from playing smaller circles, because this is just too silly
I also got absolutely nothing (it's not even in my top performance) for HR FC this thing which is very difficult https://osu.ppy.sh/s/8442
Topic Starter
HR would be rewarded more if the scores would be appropriate. I think the reason for lower-level players to not be good with HR is because it simply is not fun to practice high AR, OD and CS rather than speed.Tess wrote:
This. HR is way too undervalued. Most players I know of around my rank aren't very adept with HR (meaning, I know nobody with a rank above 1000 that can consistently get >99% scores with HR) and that's saying something, considering players with lower ranks are very unlikely to be good at it. Small circle size + high OD + high AR can be a real pain to play with, and it should be rewarded properly in my opinion. I agree that HDDT should give more pp than HDHR, but the difference right now is much too huge. Either HR should be bumped up or DT should be toned town. Preferably the former.
If you provide me specific examples of scores with HR you think are unterrated I can discuss this better.
Well, it could be that he feels that the acc value of lower than 99-100% acc scores should be a bit higher near/at OD10.