about when will the pp recalculation finish?
I still see maps with wrong star difficulty...
Will graveyarded and pending maps have a recalculation of pp?

haha5957 wrote:

example would be Mendes, with it having low enough bpm to long stream with ease, it seems to have high difficulty and it gives me the most pp, while it was one of the most easiest map to 99%/FC it.

have you considered the fact that you might be an exception and that you happen to be really good at high accuracy on low-medium bpm long streams?

there are only 37 people who have a higher acc than you on mendes, only 11 used a mod and it's a frequently played map

most people find it difficult to break 93%

Akari- wrote:

haha5957 wrote:

example would be Mendes, with it having low enough bpm to long stream with ease, it seems to have high difficulty and it gives me the most pp, while it was one of the most easiest map to 99%/FC it.

have you considered the fact that you might be an exception and that you happen to be really good at high accuracy on low-medium bpm long streams?

there are only 37 people who have a higher acc than you on mendes, only 11 used a mod and it's a frequently played map

most people find it difficult to break 93%

i understand that my strong point might be medium bpm stream and weakpoint might be fast SV.

I still think High SV maps are underrated. Popular Emerald sword and Strangeprogram, Dance number, scarlet rose, even myself's map those have 2.88SV feels way too hard compared to maps that have same difficulty. This is why I am "discussing" this here. Is it just that I suck at fast SV and maybe little better on medium bpm streams? Like i said, I see nearly no doubletime on emerald sword Intense difficulty which barely has 3 star difficulty. Dance number, scarlet rose is famous for its insanity but it doesnt even have extra difficulty. They have fast SV in common.

haha5957 wrote:

i understand that my strong point might be medium bpm stream and weakpoint might be fast SV.

I still think High SV maps are underrated. Popular Emerald sword and Strangeprogram, Dance number, scarlet rose, even myself's map those have 2.88SV feels way too hard compared to maps that have same difficulty. This is why I am "discussing" this here. Is it just that I suck at fast SV and maybe little better on medium bpm streams? Like i said, I see nearly no doubletime on emerald sword Intense difficulty which barely has 3 star difficulty. Dance number, scarlet rose is famous for its insanity but it doesnt even have extra difficulty. They have fast SV in common.

yeah high SV maps are underrated because sliders are almost a nonfactor in difficulty calculation (calculation assumes that movement to and from a slider is 100% optimal iirc) and it doesn't help that high bpm singles are underrated unless they have big spacing like some of WWW's scores

this is a difficult issue to fix though, hard sliders are the exception and not the norm, and it would be tricky to calculate the difference between spaced streams, tolerable bpm singles, and high bpm singles

It would be much easier to help out if we could know how actually slider difficulty is calculated because I really think high SV maps (or map with complex slider rhythm) are way too underrated. I generally agree with the star rating difficulty but high SV centered maps are significantly underrated

This might help you. I think the current iteration of the algorithm is the same up to overall scaling, but with exact values used where the code uses approximate values. I haven't actually looked through it, so no promises.

Also, it's very much a known issue that sliders are underrated. The difficulty lies in trying to fix that without breaking repeat sliders and sliderstreams.

Although since the topic of single taps being undervalued to some extent came up, how much should we expect pp to change when/if a solution/change is applied to the algorithm? (relative value, i.e. "holy crap some people with have giant rank shifts" or "meh it'll affect some people but relative rankings should stay about same")

Oskur wrote:

Although since the topic of single taps being undervalued to some extent came up, how much should we expect pp to change when/if a solution/change is applied to the algorithm? (relative value, i.e. "holy crap some people with have giant rank shifts" or "meh it'll affect some people but relative rankings should stay about same")

Relative rankings should stay about the same since most people who are good got a lot of other good scores aside from these singletapping ones. Some people will profit, though.
Keep in mind, that this is one of the lowest priority aspects at the moment, since there are way more important things to do at a larger score and in the other modes.

I still suggest nerfing of DT (high speed or whatever) / increasing the profit from playing smaller circles, because this is just too silly



I also got absolutely nothing (it's not even in my top performance) for HR FC this thing which is very difficult https://osu.ppy.sh/s/8442

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/225490

Another: 5.36
Extra: 5.39

I FC'd the Extra. https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1721589
The Another, on the other hand, is impossible to pass for me. I'm not saying the Another is rated too low, but the Extra is rated too high. Can you give less pp for OD7 sliderjumps please, they're really not hard compared to the CS5 OD8 deathstreams on Another.

Someone please explain this to me. I had like 1228pp and then after completing a song and beat my old score, I became 1213pp. My accuracy dropped like 0.31% even though in the song my accuracy only dropped by 4% compared to my old score. Now I'm having a hard time getting back ranks.

i have one question has it become harder to gain PP of maps?? i FC'd this map https://osu.ppy.sh/b/202072 with 97 % accuracy and it gave 0PP. i have also done a few long maps with 99% accuracy latley and not gaining any PP from them. it starting to bug me

I dont really get this, wont this elevate only the players who are really active? because not all of us can play alot,like ALOT (8-10) hours per day like some of osu players o mostly can sit 1-2hours, so wont this leave me and the other players who arent as active as th"active" players behind?

GxArchery wrote:

Someone please explain this to me. I had like 1228pp and then after completing a song and beat my old score, I became 1213pp. My accuracy dropped like 0.31% even though in the song my accuracy only dropped by 4% compared to my old score. Now I'm having a hard time getting back ranks.

4%? Like, 95% -> 91%? That's a lot. In fact, that example would be almost twice the 100/50 count. If you lost that much PP, it was probably one of your higher-ranking songs on which you had comparatively good accuracy. If you want it back, you need to beat your score again with the kind of accuracy you used to have on it.

valixas125 wrote:

I dont really get this, wont this elevate only the players who are really active? because not all of us can play alot,like ALOT (8-10) hours per day like some of osu players o mostly can sit 1-2hours, so wont this leave me and the other players who arent as active as th"active" players behind?

Obviously. This isn't the "No Player Left Behind Act." osu!'s not going to hand out participation awards so everyone can feel good about themselves. It's a leaderboard. A ranking. A measure of who is better than who. Of course someone that works harder is going to do better. You're telling me you want to look better than people who are pouring in vastly more time and effort than you? How is that fair at all?

If you want to have a good rank, work for it. If you can't, you'll have to deal with a lower rank. It's not like it changes the game and prevents you from playing or anything.

XGeneral2000 wrote:

4%? Like, 95% -> 91%? That's a lot. In fact, that example would be almost twice the 100/50 count. If you lost that much PP, it was probably one of your higher-ranking songs on which you had comparatively good accuracy. If you want it back, you need to beat your score again with the kind of accuracy you used to have on it.

No like 99% accuracy and I dropped to 95% with HD,HR mods on .

XGeneral2000 wrote:

Of course someone that works harder is going to do better.

not always true
i work harder than most people at my rank did to get here and a lot of people far above my rank had to try way less than me...

i know playcount isnt everything, i also have an insanely high number of total hits.

Free ranks for participation pls

GxArchery wrote:

XGeneral2000 wrote:

4%? Like, 95% -> 91%? That's a lot. In fact, that example would be almost twice the 100/50 count. If you lost that much PP, it was probably one of your higher-ranking songs on which you had comparatively good accuracy. If you want it back, you need to beat your score again with the kind of accuracy you used to have on it.

No like 99% accuracy and I dropped to 95% with HD,HR mods on .

That's even worse, 99 -> 95 means you got five times as many 100s. HDHR will not outweigh that much of a drop.

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

XGeneral2000 wrote:

Of course someone that works harder is going to do better.

not always true
i work harder than most people at my rank did to get here and a lot of people far above my rank had to try way less than me...

i know playcount isnt everything, i also have an insanely high number of total hits.

Free ranks for participation pls

Hard work vs talent issues aside, the point is that you can't complain about low rank if you're not even willing to put any time or effort into it. That's true for anything in life. Maybe you're a genius at something and can do in one hour what others would need to take 10 hours to do, but you can hardly complain if that doesn't turn out to be the case.

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

XGeneral2000 wrote:

Of course someone that works harder is going to do better.

not always true
i work harder than most people at my rank did to get here and a lot of people far above my rank had to try way less than me...

i know playcount isnt everything, i also have an insanely high number of total hits.

Free ranks for participation pls

XGeneral2000 wrote:

Of course someone that works harder with the same amount of talent is going to do better.

that's a bit more accurate, right?

in any case, why should a measure of skill measure or take into account things that are not skill? i totally get where you're coming from, people have to work half as hard as me to get to my rank. so what? if the game provides free ranks for just playing and achieving nothing, it's not a measure of skill, it's welfare. this is a video game, not politics. genius or not, everyone has the potential to improve past their current state which means that you will get to where you want. eventually. with hard work. and if you don't want to work hard, just play some other game

if anything i just wish they removed the playcount display in this game, it's not needed for measuring skill and it's like wearing a big badge that says "i'm a goddamn retard, please spit at my feet"

On the osu! subreddit, Tillerino made an analysis of pp here. It looks pretty accurate and sound, but the thing I want to address is the graphs he made for certain songs with pp value measured against combo and accuracy.

First of all, are these accurate by any means? I mean, it's shiny and colorful so it might be.
Second, regardless of whether or not it is accurate, would/could an idea like this be implemented officially in the future? It really makes understanding the pp value gained from completing certain maps really easy with this visual representation; essentially "PP for Dummies".

Oskur wrote:

On the osu! subreddit, Tillerino made an analysis of pp here. It looks pretty accurate and sound, but the thing I want to address is the graphs he made for certain songs with pp value measured against combo and accuracy.

sexy pp graphs

First of all, are these accurate by any means? I mean, it's shiny and colorful so it might be.
Second, regardless of whether or not it is accurate, would/could an idea like this be implemented officially in the future? It really makes understanding the pp value gained from completing certain maps really easy with this visual representation; essentially "PP for Dummies".

It is an approximation, it might be useful for estimating approximately how much pp a certain score is worth, in a way that is more simple than using the real formulas.

I would like to know why my 'Best Performance' isn't changed when I, for example, have around a 98% using HR only, and then complete the same map at 100% or even 99.51% with just HR too. It's happened a few times with different maps in different situations, and I'm just wondering, how does this happen?

Your rank is still extremely low and the maps you are playing have very lenient OD (hit windows) with generally low object counts, so the bonus accuracy pp from those few 300s likely equates to less than 1.
Accuracy only becomes really important once you play more advanced maps.

Kert wrote:

I still suggest nerfing of DT (high speed or whatever) / increasing the profit from playing smaller circles, because this is just too silly

DT

HR

I also got absolutely nothing (it's not even in my top performance) for HR FC this thing which is very difficult https://osu.ppy.sh/s/8442

This. HR is way too undervalued. Most players I know of around my rank aren't very adept with HR (meaning, I know nobody with a rank above 1000 that can consistently get >99% scores with HR) and that's saying something, considering players with lower ranks are very unlikely to be good at it. Small circle size + high OD + high AR can be a real pain to play with, and it should be rewarded properly in my opinion. I agree that HDDT should give more pp than HDHR, but the difference right now is much too huge. Either HR should be bumped up or DT should be toned town. Preferably the former.

Tess wrote:

This. HR is way too undervalued. Most players I know of around my rank aren't very adept with HR (meaning, I know nobody with a rank above 1000 that can consistently get >99% scores with HR) and that's saying something, considering players with lower ranks are very unlikely to be good at it. Small circle size + high OD + high AR can be a real pain to play with, and it should be rewarded properly in my opinion. I agree that HDDT should give more pp than HDHR, but the difference right now is much too huge. Either HR should be bumped up or DT should be toned town. Preferably the former.

HR would be rewarded more if the scores would be appropriate. I think the reason for lower-level players to not be good with HR is because it simply is not fun to practice high AR, OD and CS rather than speed.

If you provide me specific examples of scores with HR you think are unterrated I can discuss this better.

Well, it could be that he feels that the acc value of lower than 99-100% acc scores should be a bit higher near/at OD10.

Limitations of pp calculation in its current state:

1. There is no pattern recognization.
The pp calculating method simply takes note of the difference between notes and treats it as the so called strain on a map.
Sadly, in the process there is only a simple weighing of the strain and simple addition.
Therfore, DT would be overvalued in the sense that it simply makes easy patterns faster. Hard patterns would be at a disadvantage on this point.
This is why skystar maps and chloe maps are of relatively low rating since their difficulty lies in reading difficulty, not in so called aim.

2. Fast single taps are underrated.
There is no way for our simple pp calculator to distinguish between single taps and streams. Therefore fast single taps are underrated.

3. High SV is underrated.
pp calculations do not take sliders in account. Thus maps which are difficult because of sliders are underrated.
such as Talent Shredder, Strange Program

4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
This ties with what I have said about no pattern recognization. The main difficulty of HD and FL is that they make the map harder to read.
It is not reasonable to put an arbitrary multiplier for pp on a map. After pattern recognization is finished, the difficulty of HD and FL can be gauged in a better way.

5. No per-object data is available
pp calculation is based on strain values, and if there is no per-object data, there may be scores with a good combo in the easy part triumphing over the scores having a miss in the easy part yet excellent performance in other parts

6.There is no adequate rewards for playing hard maps
In the pp system, there is no reward for passing hard maps. I believe passing is a skill which is as vital or maybe even more vital than FC-ing songs. Therefore I think that we should get a reward for simply passing hard maps.

I hope that in the future it would be possible to solve these problems and make pp a much better ranking metric.

I agree with points 1, 2, 3 and 5. I partly agree with 4, but I completely disagree with 6.

Simply passing a map can never be more vital than FCing. You can just spam your way through a map and pass it and I don't think that justifies a reward. If the map is hard for your level and you get a decent combo and just 1 miss or whatever, you will still be rewarded, even if it's not a full combo. But simply "passing" a map kinda implies that you get many misses (at least more than 1), you pass with an average combo, maybe even have bad accuracy... and that shouldn't be rewarded.

I'd like to clarify, that pp does take sliders into account. It assumes she shortest possible movement for completing the slider with a 300, though, because otherwise certain sliderpatterns where you can just leave your cursor in one place would become overrated.

Other than that 6th is very subjective. My personal stance to this is, that passing a map barely is not a good performance on that particular map - hence you don't get many performance points. That does not imply that it wasn't hard or didn't require skill. Agreeing with the rest.

I don't understand increasing fast single taps. If the issue with them is that the maps are underrated, then is it not due to the current limitation of not being able to determine reading/pattern difficulty properly? If fast single taps were rated higher, suddenly alternating would be a really easy way to gain pp. The proper way to handle the issue would be to somehow determine reading/pattern difficulty only and not increase the rating for single taps. The system shouldn't be favouring certain play styles over others. I understand determining reading/pattern difficulty is not an easy task, but I think it is much better to have it stay as it is for now until a solution comes rather than make single taps worth more.

I might be wrong here, but I think the system can't even measure, nor does really care whether you alternated or single tapped any given part, the difficulty comes from not being able to rate those very fast very small jumps higher, without overrating spaced streams like freedom dive or rungran - dmc etc.

- something like 1/2 of the radius of the actual hitcircles could be substracted from jumps so that spaced streams are not considered as big fast jumps technically (since you stay on circles almost alll the time)

- also, being able to measure the angle change required for going from one note to the next could help to determine how hard they actually are in the case of very small jumps (just a simple line of notes that can be streamed like Holy Orders, or jumps like the ones in Lesjuh's Talent Shredder, or something in between). On the contrary, small-medium jumps are harder to play in a line, than at sharp angles for me at least.

I know I don't know much about the technical difficulties, so probably what I'm saying isn't helpful, I'm just throwing out some ideas, in case it can be of some use.

Mathsma wrote:

I don't understand increasing fast single taps. If the issue with them is that the maps are underrated, then is it not due to the current limitation of not being able to determine reading/pattern difficulty properly? If fast single taps were rated higher, suddenly alternating would be a really easy way to gain pp. The proper way to handle the issue would be to somehow determine reading/pattern difficulty only and not increase the rating for single taps. The system shouldn't be favouring certain play styles over others. I understand determining reading/pattern difficulty is not an easy task, but I think it is much better to have it stay as it is for now until a solution comes rather than make single taps worth more.

If alting is that much easier than the singletap players would alt the map, if they don't alt it when they should alt it then they are incapable of playing the map and do not deserve to performance points. Also the problem is more the fact that it's very hard to determine a spaced stream from a fast singletap jump.

Tom94 wrote:

HR would be rewarded more if the scores would be appropriate. I think the reason for lower-level players to not be good with HR is because it simply is not fun to practice high AR, OD and CS rather than speed.

If you provide me specific examples of scores with HR you think are unterrated I can discuss this better.

In both these cases, the HR scores were much harder to obtain than the DT scores - and most people around my rank have a much lower accuracy on HR than I do. I've been playing with HR for months, and still get more pp for DT scores that are easier to get. Especially Koigokoro (that we all know is overrated), where I didn't get anything near an FC and got less than 94% on, which is worth more than a higher AR/OD/CS 96.45% FC with HD on top of that. It doesn't really make sense. Everybody seems to know now that AR8 DT jump maps give pp way too easily, while high OD/AR/CS don't really live up to their difficulty in terms of pp. Obviously, DT should give more pp on the same map than HR, but the relative difference in difficulty x reward between maps is much too unbalanced in my opinion.

I think that OD specifically should be given more of a boost. People who can play with HR generally have no trouble with the AR, and the HP change is irrelevant for a pp-worthy FC. CS should definitely matter, but if we're working in an accuracy-based system, higher ODs with high accuracy should be rewarded more than high speeds with low OD (where it's much easier to get high accuracy), and obviously the two combined should be a very rewarding combo.

Also, another thing.




HD gives no pp at all.
Really.



Lasty,

Drezi wrote:

without overrating spaced streams like freedom dive or rungran - dmc etc.

Drezi wrote:

without overrating spaced streams like freedom dive

Drezi wrote:

overrating spaced streams like freedom dive

Haha, what.

did something get recalcualted

Tess wrote:

Also, another thing.




HD gives no pp at all.
Really.

yes it does
ofcourse having a lower acc will give you less pp, especially on od7+dt the difference is big

handsome wrote:

did something get recalcualted

read the changelog https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changelog

[Tom94] Slightly reduce value of aim and slightly increase value of accuracy in osu! standard.

lewa rank 1 on next play hype?...

Tess wrote:

In both these cases, the HR scores were much harder to obtain than the DT scores - and most people around my rank have a much lower accuracy on HR than I do. I've been playing with HR for months, and still get more pp for DT scores that are easier to get. Especially Koigokoro (that we all know is overrated), where I didn't get anything near an FC and got less than 94% on, which is worth more than a higher AR/OD/CS 96.45% FC with HD on top of that. It doesn't really make sense. Everybody seems to know now that AR8 DT jump maps give pp way too easily, while high OD/AR/CS don't really live up to their difficulty in terms of pp. Obviously, DT should give more pp on the same map than HR, but the relative difference in difficulty x reward between maps is much too unbalanced in my opinion.

I think that OD specifically should be given more of a boost. People who can play with HR generally have no trouble with the AR, and the HP change is irrelevant for a pp-worthy FC. CS should definitely matter, but if we're working in an accuracy-based system, higher ODs with high accuracy should be rewarded more than high speeds with low OD (where it's much easier to get high accuracy), and obviously the two combined should be a very rewarding combo.

Also, another thing.




HD gives no pp at all.
Really.

HR scores might be SLIGHTLY underrated, but the pp they give is well-deserved. The reason for playing HR is if you feel that your accuracy is sufficient that you can perform better than you would nomod. Getting 96% accuracy doesn't actually mean much when you're playing HR, where, as you said, the OD is what's most important. At that accuracy, the HR pp bonus would be mostly from the smaller CS (+aim pp), and the accuracy bonus would probably be very negligible, comparable to a 98.5%+ OD8 nomod. What I'm trying to say here, if you still don't get it, is that HR gives sufficient pp if you are able to maintain high accuracy. The effort required to get 96% HR FC, is equivalent to at regular DT FC.

Also HD gives a bunch of pp, although a percentage so it scales higher up. That map you're comparing, is 3x100 comapred to 1x100, there is probably a 20pp difference when you take out of the HD of the 3x100 play.

handsome wrote:

The effort required to get 96% HR FC, is equivalent to at regular DT FC.

First of all, what is a "regular" DT FC? That's a pretty broad term you're using there. Second, if you'd say that "Regular" DT FC would be 97% on an AR8 Insane, then I disagree. It is much easier to maintain high accuracy with DT than it is with HR (unless the map is OD7 or lower). I'm quite sure that there are many more players able to get a 97% DT FC on an AR8 Insane than there are players who can get a 96% HR FC on an AR9 Insane. Then again, I'm also using pretty broad terms here, since Yakujinsama no Couple Dance is AR8 and nobody has FC'd that with DT as far as I know.

I understand that the pp HR gives scales upwards the higher your accuracy, but my point is that that scale's range is too low. So, let's say that a map's given pp with HR would scale from 100 to 200, I think it should scale from 120 to 220, so to speak. It shouldn't be a match for DT, but it definitely should be rewarded better.

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

lewa Bikko rank 1 on next play hype?...

Fixed that for you.

silmarilen wrote:

handsome wrote:

did something get recalcualted

read the changelog https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changelog

wait, so i just lost 30pp because of this or what? o_o