ww..wanted to sign up as modder and

throw maps here
->Pet na Kanojotachi - Kimi ga Yume wo Tsuretekita (TV Size)

Signin' up as a modder aswell, since I'm starting to mod regularly.

I'm starting to become a modder again and I need something to invigorate me, this seems like a good idea to do so, I guess.

Pending map
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/155427 Amuro vs Killer - Mei

All maps and modders added.
Keep an eye on these maps for your own modding, so I can check what you've done.

Does a pattern sound / play / look well?

Remove the word sound. We all know maps don't play good just because they sound good.

Anyways, good luck getting this going.

Maybe I can find people to mod my maps.

Oh, you are right! What I ment was, does a pattern sound, play and look well? Of course, not always all three components are given, but in most cases it fits well I think. Thank you for mentioning it, MMzz! (Hm, let's see if I can find time to mod your map heh)

I will check soon the mods from the younger modders. Gezo, you do not count in. You are not new at all. lol

I'm in the list, I count !
Stop being rude to me Ono

Could've swore I posted to be added to the list. But I guess it was removed or something.

I want to be added to the modders list. Also, some of my maps for the list:

Pending: Foo Fighters - Back And Forth
For Approval: Infected Mushroom - The Pretender

Love wrote:

Could've swore I posted to be added to the list. But I guess it was removed or something.

You haven't posted, so well
you can still join anytime you want lol

Add me as a modder I guess
I just finished recruit training so I'm more free now

Think I could do something this month, add me to list please

oh yeah, pending: Comp - Gensou no Satellite

Gezo has send me a PM with all mods I need to consider from january (thanks!).
Give me some time to check these. I will update the OP soon.

Hai, pending now~^^~

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/146602 - Hatsuki Yura - Nightmare -Overture-
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/112733 - Baek ji-young - After a Long Time

half of march, still no feedback recieved

Well, first I didn't planed to do it due to exam stuff. Then I did so. And now exam is hitting me. Haha...
When everything is over, I might be much more active again.

Can you make the hint bigger ?

Weekly hint updated.
Remember: You are always allowed to ask your questions in this thread.

OnosakiHito wrote:

Weekly hint updated.

Telling someone straight up to remap is extremely demotivating and rude.
Remapping is a decision the mapper needs to make themselves.

Don't know how you guys do it in osu, but in Taiko we do it in an polite way with a lot of evidences. At the end, we always let the decision to the mapper. In my case, it rather motivated me when lepidopodus told me 4 years ago to remap something by considering what could be improved in the remap. I had the same impression from people who got such suggestion from me as well.

Again, no idea how you guys explain to mappers in osu to remap something, but in Taiko we never had such problems at all.
And in my opinion this helps a lot more than having a 30cm long mod post which no one wants really to read or which is at least really tiring to read, sorry. lol

Maybe I should rewrite it, so people don't misunderstand it.

Remap in taiko is easier than remap in other mode

And taiko map should be checked as a whole, if the whole flow or the block is totally messy remap is the only way

LunaticP wrote:

Remap in taiko is easier than remap in other mode

I think it's not really mode-related. Every mode requires the knownledge and being as perfect as possible. Also the amount of time is practicually the same.

The mapper itself should be aware how does his map looks like. If he see that the has a lot of issue which needs to be fixed or a remap require then he really should do that and should not stay with arguments like "old style" or "being too lazy". Also the excuse "to do it better with the next maps" shouldn't be accepted. imo it depends how many people suggest to remap the Difficulty or even the Mapset. if one does then this may goes in the own taste and opinion but I think there is something wrong if 6, 7, 8 or more do that. And a lot of issues are obvious and don't need a long talk about why they're bad and need to be changed.

OnosakiHito wrote:

And in my opinion this helps a lot more than having a 30cm long mod post which no one wants really to read or which is at least really tiring to read, sorry. lol

this. If you already suggest sooooo much in a Difficulty or Mapset, and let us say it's a TV Size Map.. then making huge Mod posts aren't really helpful since they completely change the origin map to something.. different which isn't really the point in mapping. Then it's better to suggest the person to remap the difficulties or Mapset by his own purpose.

Updated weekly hint with a latency of 1 week. =D

y no new weekly hint ;w;

why do you remember this post

Updated weekly hint. Due to exams I couldn't take care of it. Now it should be fine.

Now it's the monthly hint! lol
Added new hint.

Remember: You guys may ask modding related quetsions here! If you have problems with modding or things you are unsure about, please do not hestitate to ask in this thread!

can i join? Oh ok it's dead already

Just wanted to mention that everyone can post either modding related questions or questions about their map in this thread.
I'm getting pretty often asked in IRC and some questions might be interesting for everyone. So don't hestitate to add your questions here!


Once I can provide more time, I will see to have some update in this project.

where is the yearly hints for year 2014

I would like to mention once again, that everyone is allowed to post modding related questions or questions about their own maps. Here you are able to talk with all users about certain problems you might encounter when mapping or modding and find together possible solutions. It helps everyone who might have the same problems.

this is the first time i see this thread... wtf

Taiko mapping is so hard though, I tried it out of curiosity and asked for Raiden's opinion(poor Raiden) on my first steps and was quickly discouraged.
What do you think, how good do you have to get at Taiko as a player before you can judge map quality from a mapper-perspective?

Endaris wrote:

Taiko mapping is so hard though, I tried it out of curiosity and asked for Raiden's opinion(poor Raiden) on my first steps and was quickly discouraged.
What do you think, how good do you have to get at Taiko as a player before you can judge map quality from a mapper-perspective?

depends, you can probably be an "awful" player and be an amazing mapper and you can be like rank 50 and be a pretty bad mapper.

generally though rank 2k is a fine rank for getting decent at mapping. Honestly being a good player doesn't help that much besides telling what plays well and what is fun though, and you can probably just not play at all and still be an alright mapper providing you get good feedback and learn what is good and what is "bad".

I think that answers the question pretty well, ask further if it's still unclear.

So, after some weeks of lingering in forums, stalking people in general, and seeing the activity in #taiko in-game, I have noticed a slight increase in the amount of modders we have (maybe because of TNA?). Now, while I am truly glad that this is happening (slight increase of modders which would turn the modders/mappers fraction closer to 1), I am also noticing that the quality of mods is just in a very deplorable standstill (or even getting worse). Also, the BN amount we have is also ridiculously low because of this. What's the problem? Simple. People still complain on not getting their maps ranked, while they do close to nothing to help this (I remember being like this back then before I started modding and learned my lesson), which is exactly why I'm posting this.

I must quote some great people in here (reference: t/237620/start=165)

_Gezo_ wrote:

I'll just say this:

Less complaining. More modding.
case closed.

OnosakiHito wrote:

As solution there is not much to say but that people should start mod more by their own and maybe become BNs. Yes, we can try enfaster progress a bit by helping new modders or open diverse threads and guides. But at the end the core solution is clear: People must be more active in modding. And we all know that this isn't one of our strenghts in Taiko. lol

MMzz wrote:

Mapping and modding go hand in hand. You have to do both to survive here as a mapper. (For any game mode)
BN are not obligated to mod your map at all. If they say they will mod your map and then don't, yeah that sucks, but it happens. Like I said, BN have no obligation to mod YOUR MAP. They can mod whatever they want. (Just like non-bn can)

Its been this way for 5+ years. Its nothing new. Its nothing we haven't heard before. Start modding to help improve the situation you think is terrible, or shut up.

That said, it would be somewhat hypocritical for me to say this (because I was literally like that back then), but they are completely right.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That topic covered, let's talk about the standstill on modding quantity/quality and the severe lack of Taiko BNs.

I believe this is mostly due to the outstanding laziness of our community, paired with I'm gonna get slapped but I don't care the somewhat selfish attitude of many mappers (myself included). "I just want my map ranked but I don't want to mod anything" basically. While it is inherent to human nature, I believe there should be a possible way to fix this selfishness and laziness while also ending the modding quality/lack of BNs standstill we are currently experiencing. TNA was (in my honest opinion) a nice alternative to go with while we try to find another, more permanent alternative.

I currently lack of innovative ideas, but I do have some generic ideas which would work theoretically.

1. PROBLEM: lack of active modding (both quantity and quality)
   PROVISIONAL SOLUTION: force people to mod if they want their maps ranked (TNA)
   CONSEQUENCES: rise on the quantity of modding, paired with a standstill OR decrease of modding quality (a.k.a. encourages shitmodding just to enter the queue)
   MY GENERIC IDEA: higher quality mods (upon TNA members' discretion) will have HIGHER CHANCES of getting their map accepted, while total lazy modding (one line mods with a "change d" for example) have lower chances of being accepted.
   
2. PROBLEM: lack of Taiko BNs (specially outside TNA)
   PROVISIONAL SOLUTION: ???????
   CONSEQUENCES: people opt for the BNs outside TNA (tasuke and I) so they don't need to mod and only go for TNA when they remember having modded something less than 3 weeks ago || if one of the BNs outside TNA goes inactive for whatever reasons (me in this case), the other becomes virtually useless, as one BN alone can't rank a map. This could be fixed by QATs, since TNA members are not allowed to take requests outside of it.
   The fact that there are BNs outside TNA means that people will mostly look for us to avoid modding before opting to use TNA when we reject them. This, of course, heavily increases the non-TNA BNs' workload (not in my case since I reject almost every request)
   MY GENERIC IDEA: the same as first problem. Encourage higher quality modding by offering them higher rewards. Plus, people learning to do higher quality mods will have also higher chances of *drumrolls*......................... BECOMING BN!!! TWO BIRDS ONE STONE!!!

Now, with all this huge wall of text you'd expect me to give you some kind of advice to improve your modding right? Well, don't be disappointed, I do!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't remember having posted such wall of text ever lol

*flies away*

Hmmm I'm new to modding, so i can't tell if a mod is good or not, I made about 10 mods until now, I took my time into them because i really wanted to help, and the response in total was fine. but I'm not sure if it's worth it.

I think theres a Problem with supporting People who are new to this stuff, because they can't get constructive feedback.
there should be someone that helps people to get into this kind of stuff.

The TNA don't support beginners so the only thing thats left are the Guide's of Ono.
I don't think that is enough, after reading this you will stuck and dont now how to go on.

Sure everyone could try try and try. making mods, making maps, push them with stars to get them ranked, but in total you can't be sure if what you do is right or not, may thats an cause why the quality of mods is bad or more its not improving.

I would really like to have some feedback on the things i do, but atm it's nearly impossible.
how about a thread where modders/mappers can look for feedback?

Hmmm i don't know if this post will help, but thats just the oppinion of someone who startet modding

I feel not qualified to mod Taiko for good reasons though.
I don't feel like I can provide reasonable feedback to a Taiko-Diff unless it's completely bad cause I lack the grasp on what is good and what not that I have in std.
The most important thing for me when I mod std in general is this wishywashy line of RC called

notes are generally following a recognizable rhythm (such as the lyrics or drums) which is comprehensible by a player

that basically decides whether a map is good or not.
Everything else - especially in Taiko where you got no extra layer for "visual design" as in std - is just additional glitter on top of gameplay but won't make a map good as long as it still plays bad.
That's the reason why I personally see not as much value "modding Taiko" by telling the mapper to resize his background and that he has a typo in his metadata. Sure you need that kind of stuff too but you can always do that last when the gameplay of the mapset is actually good and such a mod has nothing to do with Taiko Gameplay in the first place.

Maybe it's just me but I find Taiko Mapdesign much harder to grasp than std where you have very clear layering and design-options with active and passive hitsounds, spacing etc.
Certainly also has to do with my playtime spent on the different game-modes(hence my question above) but people keeping their explanations short or giving none at all is unfortunately a very common thing in the modding community.

After all I have to agree with Estaryo on this: My current Taiko maps(if you can call them that) are mostly experimental right now and I have no intention on ranking anything yet. Most of all I want to push my understanding of Taiko mapping which is very hard if you get no specific feedback why the stuff you're doing is bad.
And telling me to use higher HP and not the Soft Drumset is certainly good but doesn't help me at all with designing a map which is why I don't see a point in asking people who only tell me that upon asking them for further advice on my map.
Yeah, I'm pointing at you here, Raiden~

When I asked you for feedback you didn't try to teach me anything about Taiko mapping.

2015-11-01 19:06 Raiden: I prefer people to learn by themselves
2015-11-01 19:06 Raiden: only those are worthy of BN's attention imo

I wish I didn't ask you at all in the first place because you weren't helpful early and offending later with your "FUCK STD-MAPPERS WHO TAKE THEIR TAIKO-DIFFS OUT BECAUSE THEY DONT MAN UP"-attitude. When you come from std to Taiko you have a lot to learn and the gap in mapping skill between the game modes may be very big. Yet all you do is not helping them(because they're not worth your attention) and shitstorming them when they give up upon receiving negative criticism from you that isn't particularly constructive.
You're not a good role model for what you're expecting from everyone else. More than that you're discouraging any std mapper to get into Taiko. You're making the Taiko community appear unattractive.
Your wall of text is one freaking hybris(at least you somewhat recognized it).

I didn't quite give up on mapping Taiko yet but I'll certainly never ask you again for anything related to Taiko. Rather put a "Never ask Raiden"-pic in my signature to imitate the "Never ask Irreversible"-meme.

Time to continue modding and mapping standard then. Hell, I'm even mentoring a mapping-newbie in std but oh well, such stuff isn't supposed to happen in Taiko I guess~
You reap what you sow.

edit: I almost forgot!!

Start modding to help improve the situation you think is terrible, or shut up.

Want to have feedback? Then learn how to give it. Period.

By the way, better put it in a box, since this is very off-topic and could grant us a silence

I told you repeatedly that you should just tell me if you have no interest/time to help me because I didn't want to be a bother and you appeared to be unwilling to help and didn't look like you wanted to put any energy into it. It would've been better if you told me right away to get better at Taiko first as that is what we ended up with anyway.

You're right that this is not the correct place to discuss this though.

What I wanted to get through most of all with my post is that everyone interested in the matter coming from standard can't contribute without some expertise that more experienced community members could give. Otherwise any kind of "feedback" a newb like me could give is completely random and most likely bullshit(as stated in my previous post).
My primary interest lies in how to make a map good, not rankable. In my eyes one can always make a good map rankable with some tweaks but not a technically rankable map good. This is why I didn't experience your feedback as very useful and we most likely had a misunderstanding there. It's certainly my bad for not making that clear during our conversation. I do respect your work for the community as a Taiko-BN, it's just not very appealing to be immediately hated on when you decide to not rank your first Taiko map ever. I can see why you have a grudge against such filthy Taiko-diff-murderers but my impression was that you are not very selective regarding at who you direct it (in this specific case at me).

The issue I originally wanted to point out here - related to your post - is that I don't really see any place to come to in order to ask more specific questions about Taiko mapping. I guess I could ask them here but it's kind of suboptimal because I can't even judge what's good and what not and general questions like "when Kat and when Don?" are too general anyway to have a satisfying answer.
Pushing a Taiko mapset that is not good to Pending and make people waste their time on it with (non-in-depth) mods that I might not understand completely is garbage in terms of progress - my progress as a mapper and the progress of my map.
Getting into TNA would be a way to get some quality feedback but if you have nothing to provide due to a lack of expertise just encourages shitmods as you already stated in your long post. I don't think I'm actually capable of providing anything else than shitmods right now which is why I'm searching for help to step up my level of expertise so I can actually start to give helpful input.
The average ten-year-old can't lecture someone about function theory either - he wouldn't even know what he was talking about when reading it off of a paper. The professor for mathematics can lecture it without a paper. The 18-year-old can't lecture it but at least can understand a bit of what the math-professor says.
In this situation I am like a 14-year-old who read something about math and is familiar with basic operations(=I read some of the available guides on Taiko mapping). But what now? There's not really more literature available due to whatever reasons and I'm standing in front of a problem that I can hardly solve on my own(my feeling at least) and the only person I could give some feedback that isn't completely useless is the 10-year-old who didn't even manage to find the Taiko Mapping-Guides.

It's like the snake biting its tail. The quality of my mods will be very low and rise only slowly if there's no external input on how things work and I have to figure out everything by myself. Sure, it IS possible to get good all by myself but it's very inefficient inside a mapping community that has developed over the years which is why I'd appreciate input from experienced members. There's just no place for it without doing shitmods first or assaulting poor BNs that make the mistake of appearing like nice guys in #modhelp. And I still think that you are a nice guy based on our chat. Just not the guy I should ask for feedback during my first steps~

Ah, for now I won't say a lot and rather watch what other people say. Yet, there is something I would like to mention, especially from my own experience.

While the quote from me represents pretty much what I think, I still have the same opinion like Endaris. One of the main ideas of the TNA is atm to make people start modding and getting slowly in touch with it. As someone who saw the greatest but also the worst times in Taiko (which we were stuck until a few months ago), I can say that currently with the activity of the people, we have a better one. And as I said many times before: Even old modder/mapper didn't start any different, until someone told them how they could improve their modding or until they started to have discussions about certain topics where they exchange information, opinions and ideas with other modders and mappers. That's the actual learning process in modding (beside playing or trying to map). That's one of the reasons why I give from time to time(just took latest one) some comment about a mod or discuss in #taiko about a lot of topics, so new modders are able to refine themself (but also myself! I learn a lot by talking with new people). It's also one of the reasons why I sometimes lecture people, even though they might not understand it. But maybe in the future they will. And I can only take myself as example again, as I know myself the best and experienced exactly these things:

lepidopodus wrote:

I don't like minor pattern fixes unless it sounds really weird. If you are finding a Taiko modder and you think you can make well-structured Taiko map, go back and find something else.

It took me 4 years to actually understand the deap meaning of this sentence. And even though I would explain it, new modders would need to experience it by themself before understanding it fully.

My point is, learning just by modding something isn't enough. It is important to exchange knowledge. But even then, there are by far more factors which influence the quality of a mod-post such as interest, behaviour, language or time itself. And even the history of a community can have a huge influence.

To avoid the death of this topic I'll keep posting, in quoting statements of the previous post.

I can say that currently with the activity of the people, we have a better one.

From what I have seen, all we got is a quantitative rise of modders which came along with the significant decrease of modding quality (which was the whole point in my post but I guess no one got it?). This is (I believe) caused by TNA not taking into consideration mod quality and thus encouraging half assed lazy mods: these half assed modders don't see the need to improve their quality since they are going to get in the queue anyways. This also discourages good modderss because "I'm going to get the same reward as a half assed modder, so I'll just half ass mod too".

tl;dr: we just managed to revert the factors and the saying "the order of the factors doesn't alter the product" becomes significative here

BEFORE: few modders, but mostly good ones
NOW: more modders, but less quality ones, which would be totally ok if they were newbies who still need to learn, but trust me, they have more than enough experience to do good mods and not the half assed mods they do. (A.k.a. most of the shitmodding is because of the lack of rewards mixed with a good amount of laziness)

Even old modder/mapper didn't start any different, until someone told them how they could improve their modding or until they started to have discussions about certain topics where they exchange information, opinions and ideas with other modders and mappers.

I don't remember anyone giving me classes on how to mod or map. I learned it by myself by looking at more experienced people's maps and mods, no matter how arrogant this might sound. No one was there to give me detailed explanations on how to map/mod. So yeah, if I (pretty average to dumb guy) can do it, basically everyone can do it.

My point is, learning just by modding something isn't enough. It is important to exchange knowledge.

I have to disagree here and use myself as an example (I explained in the point above). Maybe it was like that back then, when there were just too few pro people to learn from. But not the case right now.

As a disclaimer: no, I/we cannot force people to do good mods if they don't want to, and I do agree that shitmodding>no modding at all; but what we can do is encourage those good modders out there. And I believe it's of vast importance to keep them feeling rewarded for what they do.

I can't do much as of now (since I'm AFK) but after I'm back I'll try to think about a way to reward those good modders (because apparently Ono is not going to change how TNA behaves).

aaaaaaa come on keep posting! I need some discussion or else I'll go insane with all this text I have to study ;_;

Why does everything have to revolve back to you learning by yourself, as if exchanging knowledge or learning from someone isn't still viable now. You learnt everything by yourself, we get it, but not everyone has to go through the process of learning alone. Why get so mad at people who would like help from others, is it because no one helped you, so others shouldn't be helped? Sure there might be guides everywhere, but asking someone is more personal and could be more concise and targeted to the person than any guide out there. Why do we even have classes or tuition if we can learn everything by ourselves, just note that people work differently, and it is important to understand that difference in all of us.

You probably just asked the wrong person Endaris, but just go approach more people, and maybe observe how others mods and only if you have a question, ask the person in question why he said something as such or the other.

Chill guys

In no place I said asking for help was wrong. I'm just stating the fact that you CAN learn alone. It is not OBLIGATORY to ask for help to learn. Or maybe I expressed myself incorrectly?

It was directed to those who maintain that it's impossible to learn by themselves, without needing to involve DIRECTLY other people (I didn't learn by myself just because magic, it was because I stalked other people lol), which means just asking questions and stuff. (and specially those who aren't even willing to put an effort into their learning process. They just want everyone else to teach them)

Anyway, the topic at hand was the modding quality situation in which we stand, not whether I could or not learn by myself or whatever lol

Let's keep the topic within those premises.

I think TNA was a good idea but at the same time a bad idea and a mistake, why?

I know TNA is trying to increase the number of modders in taiko but, as Raiden said, the mod quality has decreased, well, i don't have too many problems with that but the point is, why are taiko mappers forced to enter in TNA for get their maps ranked?

They have a live and they can't stand 24h in front of the computer waiting for a slot in the queue, lot of people are modding for nothing because as i said, they can't stand all day in the computer, ah, and if someone managed to get a free slot probably will be rejected.

TNA should be optional and not obligatory for get a map ranked, dot.

I wonder why this is about TNA now, beside this having some minor role here. And as it seems there is once again a terrible misunderstanding about why the TNA works in a way it does now and especially about how the whole system worked previously without the TNA. There is also the strange assumption that I wouldn't change the behaviour of the TNA, while the TNA is a thing lead by what the BNs can work best with and how previous situation was. Additional to this, the "issue" which has been addressed, about modder's mods having a lower quality due to the queue, was well-known before the TNA even started, but which was a low sacrifice compared to the still standing / stagnating situation of our community, where just a small group of people were either modding or counting the whole time on the BNs, which was an issue in itself and has been tried to eliminate with the TNA.


The TNA exists to have a better organization through the whole community. While in the past people where split and their requests shattered around; now there is a clear system where everyone knows what's up with all these maps. Especially BNs can organize themself in this way and avoid having doubled, tripled or even quadrupled requests which all of these requests took time (is it searching the BN, writing and etc. up to checking the request) or even put preassure on BNs, which is the next point the TNA exists:

BNs had way too many requests accepted, which lead to a psychological stress and lowered the productivity but also the durability and interest of the BNs for modding, which nowadays -well, guess I would need to ask the BNs again, but last time (3 weeks ago) they still felt fine- has been solved due to current system. We have also a proof for this in numbers (though, luckily we also had Raiden and tasuke on our side, which btw has been also considered before the TNA started). And no, please do not come up with the "theyshouldsayno-card", I heared that way too often. It shows that people do not think about, that everyone handles stuff differently.

Next reason why the TNA exists, and which a lot of people like to forget, is the actual benefit to the requester itself. While in the past people had to wait for a really long time in uncertainty whether a BN accepted a request or not, with the TNA that's not the case anymore. Indeed, sometimes it may happen that it takes longer to give an answer whether a map has been accepted or not, but the requester knows now at least that their request is acknowledged and will gain an answer in reasonable time.


The above said things should show that the post by Hanjamon can reflect a very harsh thinking towards the BNs since it means, that instead modders to wait 24h, BNs should work 24h, accepting requests, mod the whole time and etc.. Of course, that's not what Hanjamon means. And neither do I believe that anyone of the mapper or modder ever thought about this. But many forget the fact, that there are always hundreds of other mappers who want to get a map ranked, and that's a ridiculous task for a 6 man large group. Raiden and tasuke might not feel like that at the moment as they are still very fresh BNs. But for people who are longer in that modding scene, especially for people like me who are since 3 years modding and ranking, a team can be really essential. It can make it easier for us and could prevent us in falling in some kind of eternal slumber because we can't compensate it anymore. It wouldn't have wonder me to see only Raiden and tasuke(and maybe the incredible ozzy? lol) do mainly the BN work because others couldn't anymore. And that could lead very quick to make the new BNs burnout as well. But well, how is it said? You notice stuff when it's too late or so. That's something else I wanted to prevent.

There are many more things which has been put into consideration, but those are not important right now.


Now to come to what Raiden said. Some things has been already explained above, but I think I still have to add some things, starting with the "half-assed" mods. As I said many times before, times were much worse than now. But of course, there should be still some kind of good modding going on. Though, as I said before in #taiko, there are a lot more new modders than experienced modders in Taiko. Especially now it might happen that more of these modders show up, since they have the chance to get a map ranked in a queue. So I rather think it's the pure mass of people who makes it look like that most of them don't want to learn, instead of them doing it on purpose. The reward would be the rank of a map, but many people fail on that, which, I think, can reflect how new a modder is and how high the quality of a mod could be. But that's just something I made up right now.

Even old modder/mapper didn't start any different, until someone told them how they could improve their modding or until they started to have discussions about certain topics where they exchange information, opinions and ideas with other modders and mappers.

I don't remember anyone giving me classes on how to mod or map. I learned it by myself by looking at more experienced people's maps and mods, no matter how arrogant this might sound. No one was there to give me detailed explanations on how to map/mod. So yeah, if I (pretty average to dumb guy) can do it, basically everyone can do it.

That's fine, but that's why you still have a very long way to go. It's not like you are the only one who managed that at the beginning. But sooner or later you will need a second opinion or people who are around you to refine yourself in modding, else the chance is high that you will stuck in your own world, with for example, not very well founded arguments against something. As I explained here already, it's not just about modding. Doesn't matter about what time we talk. And people like neonat actually explained it already well enough with the given example.


Dunno, I think you don't see the bigger picture here. It is easy to say that something should be changed, but the peformence? Really hard. My post probably sounds very negative towards you, but I'm just telling you a little part of what I learned with the old guys in the last years. The product of it is currently the TNA. Changing modders behaviour? Very hard. Probably even impossible. And I just have to point my finger to the other game modes as example, and you can see what the output might be. osu has become so big because they started all on a low level, but produced because of that a lot of maps which attracted more people. Taiko was once on a similar way (so I believe), but it's demographic change has been stopped due to some events which happened, so we had to start a lot of times from zero. That's another reason why the TNA happened and which is why we (or I?) want to generate more modding and activity. We have to get first new modders and then we can start rising somehow the quality (though, even here I say it's a task everyone of us has, to 'teach' people ( hi)).

P.s.: If nothing helps, I'm for this.
P.s2: I doubt there is any need to response to my post any further as I will probably just say the same things over and over again. Just look what other people say and maybe make your own thoughts of how this problem can be solved. I will read this dicussion with a lot of interest and wait for a possible idea from your side. Maybe Taiko needs some fresh air from fresh people, too?

random opinion (unranked mappers are not concerned by this btw):

- We have already reached our ranked maps/month limits and they are pretty low because there are not enough BNs (obvious fact). So for that reason there is no point in this whole discussion above because none here can fix that, it's all about getting more BNs and it doesn't look like the higher peoples plan to recruit more.

- About TNA i have changed my mind, i previously thought that it was a bad idea but in the end it (in my opinion) almost has not changed anything about the number of maps ranked/month or their qualities. The main good point is that it made it pretty clear that there are only a few slots of possibly ranked maps per month, also the BNs don't have to deal with tons of requests like before.

- The repercussion of the 2 points above are kinda obivous. The situation is getting worse because there are more and more peoples mapping/modding/hopping to get their map ranked and getting disappointed. Now there are only bad solutions : wait for more BNs or give up on taiko mapping/modding (IF YOU MAP FOR RANK).

But now apparently there are beginners taiko modders/mappers that don't want to give up that fast. For them i would suggest to get a list where peoples that we consider as being "experienced mappers/modders" explain their way to map/mod. There are several existing mapping styles so only one guide/way of thinking is just too subjective. => This solution will work only if someone has time to make a list and ask peoples to write their way of thinking, and then posting the whole thing somewhere (if this ever happens i would probably not mind that much to explain how i mod or map for rank if someone asks me).
And in case someone cares about how i started to mod/map : I asked "Nardoxyribonucleic" back in 2013 to teach me basics of modding (HP/OD stuff, spread etc), then i basically tried to copy "qoot8123"'s mapping/modding style because i liked it more. But my opinion about mapping/modding has changed a lot by discovering new styles etc (also being able to testplay your own map is a plus imo).

edit : also if you are new here you need to know that most of the real experienced peoples rarely or don't use this forum so asking something here won't really help :/ (i mean almost none uses this forum, whatever happens/is said here is always about 10 people's opinion or so).

tna stuff

that was not supposed to be the epicenter of this topic XD so I'll just keep quiet about it

Raiden and tasuke might not feel like that at the moment as they are still very fresh BNs.

I can assure you I got tons of daily requests from day 1. What has kept me away of burnout? I can say NO and not feel bad about it. The same way mappers are free to request something from me, I am free to reject those requests. I am not forced to do anything. I will do what I want to do. Maybe I expect too much from fellow BNs? Maybe I'm a psycho with no feelings and should be arrested? Remember that this is not a job, no matter how you look at it.

But for people who are longer in that modding scene, especially for people like me who are since 3 years modding and ranking, a team can be really essential. It can make it easier for us and could prevent us in falling in some kind of eternal slumber because we can't compensate it anymore. It wouldn't have wonder me to see only Raiden and tasuke(and maybe the incredible ozzy? lol) do mainly the BN work because others couldn't anymore. And that could lead very quick to make the new BNs burnout as well. But well, how is it said? You notice stuff when it's too late or so. That's something else I wanted to prevent.

That heavily depends on the person rather than on the time that person has spent in the modding scene. As you already said, everyone handles stuff differently, and as I already said, I don't see myself ending in a burnout, just because I have the skill of saying "no".

This might seem a bit contradictory considering what I am "demanding". But the "bias" in which I accept mod requests or not is very simple. I either LOVE the map (1% of the situations) or I stalk the person who requested me and see if they have done any contribution to the community. They haven't? Easy "NO". And don't say mapping only is doing a contribution. Sure, doing some maps may give us some content, but expecting to get ranks without doing even a single mod or putting close to or literally zero effort on the modding (because, as MMzz well said, mapping and modding go hand in hand) is just ridiculous to me (maybe it's not for other fellow BNs).

Now to come to what Raiden said. Some things has been already explained above, but I think I still have to add some things, starting with the "half-assed" mods. As I said many times before, times were much worse than now. But of course, there should be still some kind of good modding going on. Though, as I said before in #taiko, there are a lot more new modders than experienced modders in Taiko. Especially now it might happen that more of these modders show up, since they have the chance to get a map ranked in a queue. So I rather think it's the pure mass of people who makes it look like that most of them don't want to learn, instead of them doing it on purpose. The reward would be the rank of a map, but many people fail on that, which, I think, can reflect how new a modder is and how high the quality of a mod could be. But that's just something I made up right now.

The big problem here is, and I already said it 574216941847239471489 times (approximately) is the LACK OF REWARD OF GOOD MODDERS. Maybe it's perfectly readable now? Haha. Maybe we're going in circles in here Ono.

Good mods are not being rewarded appropiately. Bad mods are being rewarded at all.

There are 2 wrong things in there ^

That's fine, but that's why you still have a very long way to go. It's not like you are the only one who managed that at the beginning. But sooner or later you will need a second opinion or people who are around you to refine yourself in modding, else the chance is high that you will stuck in your own world, with for example, not very well founded arguments against something. As I explained here already, it's not just about modding. Doesn't matter about what time we talk. And people like neonat actually explained it already well enough with the given example.

Of course. I may have a long way to go, but I believe they will just be mild refinements. I already settled my modding format and style. And again, the purpose of the "I learned by myself" post was not to look arrogant jesus christ. It was to give an argument to those who still maintain it is not possible to learn by one self.

Dunno, I think you don't see the bigger picture here. It is easy to say that something should be changed, but the peformence? Really hard. My post probably sounds very negative towards you, but I'm just telling you a little part of what I learned with the old guys in the last years. The product of it is currently the TNA. Changing modders behaviour? Very hard. Probably even impossible. And I just have to point my finger to the other game modes as example, and you can see what the output might be. osu has become so big because they started all on a low level, but produced because of that a lot of maps which attracted more people. Taiko was once on a similar way (so I believe), but it's demographic change has been stopped due to some events which happened, so we had to start a lot of times from zero. That's another reason why the TNA happened and which is why we (or I?) want to generate more modding and activity. We have to get first new modders and then we can start rising somehow the quality (though, even here I say it's a task everyone of us has, to 'teach' people ( hi)).

So TNA is just an evil plan to get more quantity and then close it and expect people to suddenly rise quality even after being used to do half assed mods? el oh el

P.s2: I doubt there is any need to response to my post any further as I will probably just say the same things over and over again. Just look what other people say and maybe make your own thoughts of how this problem can be solved. I will read this dicussion with a lot of interest and wait for a possible idea from your side. Maybe Taiko needs some fresh air from fresh people, too?

You won't get rid of me that easily : DD

Anyway, I'm trying to set up something and get it running in February after I'm back (as an alternative to TNA). So yeah, if anyone is interested just PM me here or on Twitter or on Skype.

And I agree with you and MMzz.
But when it's about reward, as I said, currently it is the rank of a map. I didn't done it any different like you. When I see someone does alot of effort, I try to reward them by supporting their maps. But beside that, actually we can do that. That was my idea right at the beginning when I opened the Taiko Modding Academy, but which I couldn't do since we had too less people and I had to less time doing it alone: Having weeky / monthly modding phases where the mods from people of the TMA are getting checked, and the best modders will be rewarded with a supporter. I even got the official approval for that, so we could consider doing this (ctb did it as well). But this will requiere a lot of mainteance and taking care of this, especially considering how I wanted to actually connect it with the TNA (which goes somewhat in the direction you are worried about).

Ah, and modding format style =/= experience. That's actually what I ment. Afterall, I still have the same format I have since several years. But real experience(or enlightment to one? Really don't know how to call it) comes over the years. And that's what I mean with having a long way to go. But nevermind that, it's something one must find for themself in their own way. Just wanted to comment it.

Raiden wrote:

So TNA is just an evil plan to get more quantity and then close it and expect people to suddenly rise quality even after being used to do half assed mods? el oh el

The TNA tries to assure getting maps qualified with a good quality. And the QATs are the last step for that check. These maps can work as example for new modders how proper maps can be made. I think by now, you see the process I was aiming for. And for a direct rise of "modding quality" we can use my (or rather Deifs) idea about the use of the TMA. As you can see, I planed all these things years ago. It's just that we lack people and have too many mappers. Nofool said it some posts before as well. That's why I don't wanna rush with that. It requieres a lot of time and people who really wanna do it.

@Nofool: We had that idea before where mappers also explained themself and their modding way, but didn't went well as no one took care of it at the end: t/129239

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/380131

What a nice idea to farm kudosu and priority, this is awesome and should be seen by every modder.

The good thing:
1. No work
2. Fast Priority Farm
3. Fast Kudosu Farm

19:31 - EDIT: even if kudosu has been revoked now, this example will show the community that this system still works.
This map wouldn't have been qualified if not for illegal kudosu farming.
I know that i will be hated now but truth must be told to show how corrupt this system is.

^ I believe the initial intention was not to "farm priority" but rather the mapper deeming the opinions as useful. But again, that is not a real mod, just a testplay opinion. *points at S a n d*

ono text

Well I guess this is just us running in circles again haha

The TNA tries to assure getting maps qualified with a good quality. And the QATs are the last step for that check. These maps can work as example for new modders how proper maps can be made. I think by now, you see the process I was aiming for.

Hmm. I don't presume you're meaning that it was not like that before TNA?

I mean, before TNA ranked maps were also of good quality, and they were good examples as well for new modders on how to properly map. I don't think this is any different.

And for a direct rise of "modding quality" we can use my (or rather Deifs) idea about the use of the TMA. As you can see, I planed all these things years ago. It's just that we lack people and have too many mappers.

But yeah, I'm willing to try to lend a hand in whatever I can for that cause. I guess discussing any further won't bring us any real profit haha