Please somebody (of course BAT is better) drop here

large variance of map quality present these days

and maps from this week\month\two which could be handled by this rule.

I think some examples can bring this thread to a new level.

As Sieg said - giving few examples would bring this thread to whole new level, so I do.

Because I mostly agree on what CDFA said, I'm going to drop my 2 cents here

CDFA wrote:

For instance, Cut Ver. maps. Piss me off uncontrollably. I understand like Eroge OPs and stuff, and cutting songs that repeat (Mostly like vidja game music), but when you have a full version song, cut it after the first chorus, and go off and get it ranked magically, that's pretty bad. There can easily be a rule saying "Songs should not be cut without due reason." BATs can also be harder on it by not being so fluffy wuffy and getting what can be done next time done now.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/88299

Same with like guest diff maps. I swear there was a rule where mappers had to map at least 2 of the diffs in a map (Or at least participate like in a collab diff or something.). But there's a lot of maps where people are like "MAP ONE DIFF LOL OTHER DIFFS ARE DUMB IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE PUBLISHING THIS FOR A GAME OR ANYTHING", which is totally a sign of low quality. A rule can be made easily.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/94623
(Sorry Andrea for using you as example)

Mr Color wrote:

I've been seeing a lot of very uninteresting mapsets lately, 2-diff mapsets that clearly have no gameplay experience to bring, very low user rated beatmaps, and just maps that are boring and uninspired and get very few plays. I think these are the one that the "level of quality" is aimed at. I don't think we're talking about "this is fun but dodgy, let's see if we can get 8 BATs to change it" but more like "hey, this really brings nothing to the game, why is it here" type of deal. Of course, that's a very blunt way of putting things, but it is true. You have no idea how few beatmaps I download these days because at least 1/3 of them are 2-diff mapsets or clearly show no effort in making them. And I know for a fact that I'm not alone.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/76731

I don't want to actually start a flame war - And I could be wrong - but these maps fits their quotations very good. And I could even provide at least one problem with them if you don't agree with me.

"Quality checkers" should be a separate group of people from BATs, they shouldn't look at the technical side, just the playing side. The biggest problem for me with this is that a lot of BATs can't understand the playing quality of a map because they can't play it. This rule seems like it's aimed at maps which are hard to play because let's face it, a typical hard difficulty is a typical hard difficulty (9 times out of 10), a normal is always a normal and an easy is an easy, it's uncommon to find exceptionally interesting maps in there difficulties. Insane+ maps however tend to vary GREATLY and you need to be able to understand the appeal of each part of the variety if you want to regulate it.

People are too uppety about this kind of thing though, I mean the opposite isn't true so why should it work this way? Why can't maps of an exceptional quality be ranked without going through opinionated mods? I like mappers having freedom but I don't like bad mapping. Trying to regulate an opinion is difficult, if this passes AT LEAST make the decision require a rather high quantity of BATs to agree (a voting system on nominated maps in some hidden away BAT area perhaps?)

If this is aimed at "generic" difficulties, I don't agree. They always have been generic and always will be and in my eyes they will always be there for people to jump on, just more maps for me not to play.

^What I've been saying for years. But apparently most people is unable to understand that pretty much anything below Insane = generic maps that will always be the same. You can't do much on an easy or normal, you can barely do anything cool on Hards (and when you do they usually end up being Insanes) and then again even low tier Insanes are almost always the same, it gets interesting when the level goes really high and then it stop being technical. There are tons of high level insanes that got ranked after rotting for ages without any real change happening, they were there just because they used to get avoided by BATs because they were complex, hard to mod probably and of course THEY COULDN'T PLAY THEM.

I still hold my idea thjat if you can't play a map then you are not able to properly feel how it plays, how good it is and what should be changed, minor technical things like offset, maybe some timing, and that stuff is ok, but anything else is just no, you can't do it. Any good player can test and judge a map in a matter of 10~15 minutes (leaving aside some technical things no one really cares about other than mods) yet whenever some hard maps goes for ranking it takes months if not years of "work" to get them ranked.

I think I could make a list consisting on more than 100 maps that are all more interesting, original and fun to play than most maps getting ranked nowadays, and I'm sure any somewhat good active player can do the same thing (assuming they kind of explore the world of unranked maps).

Peoples are keep saying, and things are going their old way as always.

tl;dr: A bunch of very basic rules is enough, rest is not necessary. You can't judge how good a map's quality is if you can't properly play it, therefore many maps can't be judged by BATs because they are not good enough to play them and understand how good/bad the map is, ergo this rule makes little sense, but w/e some things are never gonna change.

Loctav wrote:

CXu wrote:

Out of curiosity: what happens if 8 BATs think something is bad, but 4/6/8/10/whatevernumber of BATs disagree?

If 8 BATs actually think, it is bad, there must be something bad, else they wouldn't be BATs. Even if 20 of them think, it is fine, 8 is a good number to say that there is at least something heavily wrong.

I hope you get this logic. lol

If 20 BATs actually think, it is good, it must be good, else they wouldn't be BATs. Even if 8 of them think, it is bad, 20 is a good number to say that it is good.

Just used your words, inverted the numbers and +/- terms, same logic, just to show you that's just a very poor argument.

I got a question for you:

If 2 BATs think a map is bad and it shouldn't be ranked, and you get like 50 active good players telling you the map is fine, really fun and it would be really cool that it got ranked, what would you do?

If the BAT can't play it, then they aren't qualified to rank it either. If we want to go this route, then we could say that it is unrankable because it's too difficult.

This rule doesn't change anything. If a BAT cannot beat a map, they should be seeking advise from people who can or we should be recruiting BATs who are better players. Limiting power because of physical capabilities is silly.

Edit: There are BATs that can play super difficult maps. SapphireGhost being the example that comes to mind.

Thing is the BAT recruiting is usually based on stuff that good active players don't usually do. Like if I want to be a BAT I gotta go mod lots of maps, maybe even map, etc, what does that have to do with being a good player able to judge how good/fun a map is? I think it's more something like a base problem.

Edit: I don't really know who's a BAT and who's not, I know there are some very good players there, yet they are just a few, not enough. Maybe make a special division within BATs where you get like the pro player BATs just mod specific maps (very hard ones) while the rest work on easier ones?

The more you're able to play, the less able you are to tell if something is bad.

those wrote:

The more you're able to play, the less able you are to tell if something is bad.

Behold, our new BAT master, the ultimate quality checker...


https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1585937


Just jokin' with ya', but I disagree with this, I'd argue that they can just understand more aspects of playing.

those wrote:

The more you're able to play, the less able you are to tell if something is bad.

You are very funny.

Wishy wrote:

But apparently most people is unable to understand that pretty much anything below Insane = generic maps that will always be the same. You can't do much on an easy or normal, you can barely do anything cool on Hards (and when you do they usually end up being Insanes) and then again even low tier Insanes are almost always the same, it gets interesting when the level goes really high and then it stop being technical.

Does anybody have a reaction image? I could really use one right now. There is loads that can be done with easier maps. The only issue is that most people are apparently unable to understand how to use simple, consistent and interesting phrasing.

By the way, those is right in a sense. I always feel like experienced players and mappers have became conditioned to certain quirks, simply because they've encountered them so many times. Does this mean that the quirks should be deemed as acceptable? I don't think so. There's a reason why older people come back after a hiatus and whinge about certain things in newer maps. It''s because they haven't been around to get used to them as trends.

Uh I don't really have much to say here that hasn't been said already (from the both sides actually), but are we really gonna derail this into another "BATs can't play this game" argument?

Come on guys... :/

those wrote:

The more you're able to play, the less able you are to tell if something is bad.

Or you're more able to tell what's actually good, and regarding some "bad" patterns for inexperienced players as "good" patterns from an experienced player's POV.

I mean, an inexperienced player may regard With a Dance Number as a shitmap (and maybe some BATs, idk), but try unrank that and see the shitstorm, lol.

Well, you still need to figure out where your own skills are in regards to the general playerbase that's going to play said map. If there is one awesomely cool, but very difficult pattern in a [Hard], you don't leave it, you point it out. Same if you have an easier [Insane] with some ridiculous pattern (even if you are able to play it).

Well, what I mean is basically: you kinda need both experience in modding and playing when judging a map.

CXu wrote:

Well, what I mean is basically: you kinda need both experience in modding and playing when judging a map.

Yes, I don't disagree with that. But too much experience playing hinders your modding credibility.

More experience = more skill = you can judge more maps because you can play them.

D33d, people who quit for years and came back whine because most of ranked maps are average crap (yes, they are) and then cry about the hard maps because they haven't played the game for like 2 years and hard maps today are too much for them. I almost never download maps and have personally "quit" for periods of months (from 1 to maybe 5) and yet whenever I download new maps usually I'm amused because they are really fun an intense, that's one of the few reasons I keep coming back to this game....

I stopped playing a lot of times (even if I played a little all I did was play old maps I hade played 500 times), came back, looked for some new maps that didn't exist back then when I was playing, and then proceed to have lots of fun with them, then the cycle repeats... of course, not talking about ranked maps, those are still the same, some are decent/worth the time but most are just boring/plain/average. If I had to say what I think about how BATs are doing their job, from my POV: not good, it's been years since some problems arised and they remain unsolved.

This discussion has nothing to do with the proposed rule. The rule still barely changes what BATs can already do. What they are doing now will still be what they will be doing after this gets written down somewhere. I highly doubt old maps will be unranked. There is an unwritted rule that maps that are ranked for a certain period of time are barred from being unranked unless there is a serious unrankable issue found.

those wrote:

CXu wrote:

Well, what I mean is basically: you kinda need both experience in modding and playing when judging a map.

Yes, I don't disagree with that. But too much experience playing hinders your modding credibility.

That probably depends on the map itself, and what it's supposed to be. If the map is supposed to be difficult (of course, fitting the song), then difficult patterns that an inexperienced player would deem unreadable might be perfectly readable for anyone at a certan skill-level. If a modder with enough experience plays that map, then they can also much easier suggest changes to a hard pattern so that it still retains the same flow/pattern/whatever, while improving it at other aspects.

If you can't play it, it's really hard to understand how some flow or pattern work. Not that you can't learn how they work to an extent just through modding and watching, but having the experience behind definiely helps, atleast imo.

Let me provide a good example.

It takes an ear to listen to the objects on the timeline and match it with what's in the music; so far, over the past many years, maps have been ranked without going through this check. Surely that doesn't take playing experience; and on the contrary, playing experience will deem this fine when it is actually not mapped to the music, making it not fine.

Just because a pattern consists of objects matching what's in the music, which yes, someone who doesn't play the game can do, doesn't mean said modder can figure out if that pattern is actually readable or not, especially when going up to higher difficulty.

Also, I don't agree with the "maps should follow the music 1:1" but let's not go there as it doesn't really matter, and is more a different opinion on what a map is.

Actually, I don't even know if this modding discussion is that relevant to this topic.

Makar wrote:

Do you guys realize that nothing changes with this rule? It just gives our permissions a written down definition that is more specific.

I guess nobody read this? Ephemeral even added that the BATs in this group of 8 will each be required to help the mapper with getting it re-ranked quickly, though this almost always happens. This thread is derailing and going nowhere.

peppy wrote:

Keep in mind that as much as you disagree with the rules, if you are able to take a step back and look at the outcome of setting stricter rules, you will realise they will only do the community good. Try to think about these things objectively rather than how it may affect or offend you personally.

Basically, I am just posting this to say that while I also have a few problems with some of the rules here, it is a working document and changes can be made. If you don't agree with something:

* State the exact rule you do not agree with (do not focus on the new rules as an overall "bad" thing).
* State why you do not agree with it. Make sure you have a better reason than "I don't like it" or "that's not how I roll".
* State how you would reword or change the rule in order to make it work better for the good of the community.

Do not attack other people. Do not criticise how this thread was made, or who was and who wasn't included in its creation. You are all here now to help us shape these rules into something that will increase the quality of mapping to a new level.

Yes these rules are in place, but if they are stopping you from getting your existing beatmap from being ranked, your map isn't suddenly going to explode. We can talk these things through and if the result is an unrankable map, you *can* decide to change your map.

It's a bit late to say this, but please only post if you can abide by the points I have mentioned above. So far only a small portion of posts have managed to do this. Feel free to delete your posts if you didn't, as you are not being productive.

those wrote:

Let me provide a good example.

It takes an ear to listen to the objects on the timeline and match it with what's in the music; so far, over the past many years, maps have been ranked without going through this check. Surely that doesn't take playing experience; and on the contrary, playing experience will deem this fine when it is actually not mapped to the music, making it not fine.

Not really, playing experience makes you understand some of those checks are not necessary, if the map feels fine and has a good flow some 1/4 mapped over some 1/3 thing is not a major problem, of course each case is different, but when it's clearly "wrong" you can usually notice it by just playing it.

Wishy wrote:

some 1/4 mapped over some 1/3

show me a 2013 map doing this, please.

imo mappers are finally understanding that they at least should follow the song. Not talking about overmapping, which is still done FAAAR too often, but only about simplifying stuff which is not the way to go.

I'm not saying that ALL bats should be able to play ALL maps, just that that harder and more complex maps should at least get some input from the better players in the team.

I'm neither in support or against the proposal, if it works then great but I'm not so sure it will.

Zarerion wrote:

Wishy wrote:

some 1/4 mapped over some 1/3

show me a 2013 map doing this, please.

imo mappers are finally understanding that they at least should follow the song. Not talking about overmapping, which is still done FAAAR too often, but only about simplifying stuff which is not the way to go.

It was just an example, same way I don't care if they put some 1/2 that doesn't really fit with the song perfectly but goes really good with the gameplay. I'd like to provide an example but I rarely download maps at all.

Wishy wrote:

More experience = more skill = you can judge more maps because you can play them.

D33d, people who quit for years and came back whine because most of ranked maps are average crap (yes, they are) and then cry about the hard maps because they haven't played the game for like 2 years and hard maps today are too much for them.

Actually, citing Remmy and Roddie as examples, the complaints were more along the lines of "Nobody cares about spacing, actual readability etc." You know, certain guidelines which ought to be followed and not excused with "oh, just read by the hitcircles" or any other flimsy excuse. This sort of thing--the sorts of good habits which can actually make it possible to be more creative with patterns--could easily be scrutinised by staff members who know what they're doing. I don't necessarily making all of a map's spacing consistent either; rather, taking some form of action when a ranked map has loads of gimmicks which don't actually relate to the music. Other than that, a map which overdoes certain quirks--whether it's sloppy jumps everywhere or annoying SV changes--could surely be questioned in regards to its quality.

These are the types of things which could make me wonder why something was ranked, but there'd be plenty of other reasons to think that something has failed on a technical level. There may also be reasons to think that something has failed on a musical level, or simply on an appropriateness level, but my point is that there are those with experience who have valid reasons to complain about quality.

If you guys want to talk about the judge ability, I have something to say. Believe or not, most non-mapper players have a very unstable taste of the map. They care more about "whether I like the song" "whether I can FC it" "whether the map is incredible difficult". You can see this in the best of 2012.

I had a research about this too. I picked out 10 newly ranked maps and put them in 5 groups, and gave them to some non-mapper players and mappers. I asked them to choose the better map in each group. The result was quite different: for normal player all maps get similar number of supports, while mappers have a clear judge of them(the flow, the structure and the hitsounds etc.). Normal players can tell that "Oh, that map(or that part) plays good!" but can't pick up any detail about why it is good.

Make sure you have done a similar experiment before refuting me.

It is quite silly to suspect BATs' ability to do this work. Anyway I think the thread are discussing something irrelevant now, and better not to do this.

i don't think map quality dropped now, the average quality in new ranked maps is obviously better than in 2012

controversial maps you discussed are not quality problems, i would say controversial maps are mostly god maps

real quality problems are problems where no one will support not changing it

A significant consensus of 8 or more BAT would be required in order for this rule to be utilised. That is, if 20 BAT feel this is necessary but 28 BAT feel that the map is fine, the rule cannot be invoked.

I will specify this more clearly in the original wording.

Ok, after a try to stop "overmapping", we got an EVEN MORE SUBJECTIVE rule proposal?
The map quality IS certainly increasing, those days to get the first rank is HARD. SO DAMN HARD. You did see how now first-ranked maps are CERTAINLY of averagely better than most of the first-ranked maps of 2012 ( this is retroactive ).
The work of of a BAT as now is to control a map quality, map can be ranked by BAT.
With the new system, only a few will be able to do it, and most of that few are arguably good modders, not random people.
The most you can do is asking for modder to check the quality of the map more throughly (and most do a simple "rankability" check), but hey, we're human and we can do errors.

It's actually better to have something like 24/48 hrs in which a modder can deem the map "low quality" and the mapper itself or at least 75% BATs Members from at least 12(examples: 9 from 12, 12 from 16, 15 from 20,18 from 24,21 from 28, 24 from 36, etc) integrated in the ranking process.

It was actually arleady said by peppy that BATs role would still be "checking the maps were of a good quality" too, so we don't need rule that say us that our maps should be of a good quality, especially cause it's subjective.

D33d wrote:

Actually, citing Remmy and Roddie as examples, the complaints were more along the lines of "Nobody cares about spacing, actual readability etc." You know, certain guidelines which ought to be followed and not excused with "oh, just read by the hitcircles" or any other flimsy excuse. This sort of thing--the sorts of good habits which can actually make it possible to be more creative with patterns--could easily be scrutinised by staff members who know what they're doing. I don't necessarily making all of a map's spacing consistent either; rather, taking some form of action when a ranked map has loads of gimmicks which don't actually relate to the music. Other than that, a map which overdoes certain quirks--whether it's sloppy jumps everywhere or annoying SV changes--could surely be questioned in regards to its quality.

These are the types of things which could make me wonder why something was ranked, but there'd be plenty of other reasons to think that something has failed on a technical level. There may also be reasons to think that something has failed on a musical level, or simply on an appropriateness level, but my point is that there are those with experience who have valid reasons to complain about quality.

If the map is fun to play then the map is good. Readability is subjective, if you are good you can usually read hard stuff, if you are not then well you can't and it's not the mappers fault but yours, get better and stop crying. Saying jumps/SV changes/whatever is overused is subjective too, I can't stand to play maps where there are few jumps/SV changes/hard patterns because I get bored. See how it works?

I don't know who Reddie or Remmy are, but you gave two examples of things they whined about and both are dumb, "I can't read this" = "this is too hard for me", caring for spacing is subjective, most maps I see have "proper" spacing at least, if you don't like it that doesn't mean it's wrong.

This is nothing new. It's not even a rule. It's a way of telling people how unranked maps will be handled. I have been wanting a more complete ranking criteria for a long time. This would be one step closer even if it doesn't help non-BATs mod maps.

We need to define how long a time period is and what that process is. BATs have never given a set time to make changes to a map before it is nuked/denied ranking. IMO it should be if a consensus is made and the mapper denies changes, then it may be deranked/ considered unrankable. The amount of time before this happens doesn't matter (at least it doesn't in the current ranking system).

Wishy wrote:

D33d wrote:

Actually, citing Remmy and Roddie as examples, the complaints were more along the lines of "Nobody cares about spacing, actual readability etc." You know, certain guidelines which ought to be followed and not excused with "oh, just read by the hitcircles" or any other flimsy excuse. This sort of thing--the sorts of good habits which can actually make it possible to be more creative with patterns--could easily be scrutinised by staff members who know what they're doing. I don't necessarily making all of a map's spacing consistent either; rather, taking some form of action when a ranked map has loads of gimmicks which don't actually relate to the music. Other than that, a map which overdoes certain quirks--whether it's sloppy jumps everywhere or annoying SV changes--could surely be questioned in regards to its quality.

These are the types of things which could make me wonder why something was ranked, but there'd be plenty of other reasons to think that something has failed on a technical level. There may also be reasons to think that something has failed on a musical level, or simply on an appropriateness level, but my point is that there are those with experience who have valid reasons to complain about quality.

If the map is fun to play then the map is good. Readability is subjective, if you are good you can usually read hard stuff, if you are not then well you can't and it's not the mappers fault but yours, get better and stop crying. Saying jumps/SV changes/whatever is overused is subjective too, I can't stand to play maps where there are few jumps/SV changes/hard patterns because I get bored. See how it works?

I don't know who Reddie or Remmy are, but you gave two examples of things they whined about and both are dumb, "I can't read this" = "this is too hard for me", caring for spacing is subjective, most maps I see have "proper" spacing at least, if you don't like it that doesn't mean it's wrong.

They complained about things which could make maps unfair and sloppy. Also, Remmy and Roddie were around here from the beginning, or close to it. That might make their opinions seem antiquated to you, but they've been around for long enough to see a drastic change in what's cranked out. "Fun to play" is incredibly subjective and I find it much better to consider maps in terms of how they relate to the music.

If gimmicks are used and they're clearly forced, or there's no sense of development within a map, then you should be able to see why people might complain. "Get better and stop crying" is a rather holier-than-thou thing to say and it's immediately patronising. Guess what? I have a reasonable level of playing ability, but I can still pass a map and think that it feels like arse. Grow up and stop thinking that people are whining for the sake of it. If we were to abolish a set of standards, then we might as well omit the ranking process and allow everybody's attempts at mapping to be lumped together in one category. Nobody would need to complain, because it'd all be subjective. I bet you'd love that.

How is a map unfair? Sloppy? That's still subjective. Fun to play is subjective, that the map relates to the music is also subjective, I consider a map as something good when it feels right while listening to the song. I don't care if there is some overmapped stream or 1/4 over 1/3, if it gives a proper feeling according to the song then I say it's fine.

From what I've been told there are like 3 gimmick maps in the whole game, so I guess you are talking about maps that are not just a straight 1/2 line. People will always complain because they like to do so, they cried about AR 10 maps years ago, some others cried because they couldn't clear the map, people will always complain based on any reason you can think of, that's how it is. I can also clear a map and say it's shit, it's not a big deal tbh. If you still think people will always have good arguments for complaining then sorry but you are the one that needs to grow up.

All you need is a very basic set of rules, actually you need more like... the map must make sense, timing must be good, offset must be good, no more than one object at the saem time, and well that's it. Mapping is almost 100% subjective, all we do know is pick some users, call them BATs, and use them as standards. If they like the map and feel it's ok then it's good, if for some reason they don't like the map then it's bad. That + some rules.

Wishy wrote:

From what I've been told there are like 3 gimmick maps in the whole game, so I guess you are talking about maps that are not just a straight 1/2 line.

I would never advocate mapping in a boring, "intuitive" way like that and I would never map like that myself. When I talk about things being "sloppy," I mean that it could clearly be improved--if eight BATs think that, then it's probably a fair indicator that the map could be improved before being ranked. Not everything is destined to be ranked.

When I talk about something being "unfair," I mean that the arrangement of objects either bears little relevance to the music, or tells me little to nothing about what the map's supposed to follow. That is subjective in itself, but again, if eight BATs think that, then it's probably a fair indicator that the map could be improved before being ranked. In most of the "challenging" maps that I've seen, I've always got the impression that they were made like that for the sake of it, or that their challenging parts were stupidly overdone/unnecessary/could have been developed more gradually. If I was good enough to play them, then I'd find them heinously boring, so my ability is not a factor in this.

With that in mind, if eight bats think that, then _________. Fill in the blank!

What I find particularly frustrating is that the proponents of these kinds of silly maps like to rag on structure maps, just because they "don't flow well" or are "unintuitive," even though they tend to have much more relevance to the music and are usually much better at conveying the different rhythms in a song. This is part of why I get so vehement about this sort of thing--if people are going to complain about one style, then why shouldn't another style be held up to the same kind of scrutiny?

Outside of stylistic differences, others and I are vocal about this sort of thing because we care about the game. We want there to be a bar, and after almost six years, it should be reasonable to suggest that the bar should be high. It takes a lot of effort to get attention, so if there is clearly room for improvement that would bring a map up to par with others of its style, then why not have it improved? The only excuse is laziness.

DEEDIT: Besides, if you're talking about BATs' preferences being a part of a stripped-down ranking process, then this thread is entirely relevant and there's no room to complain about this. How about, "If you can't make a polished map, then get better and stop crying?" The community's came far enough that we should be able to push maps to be as good as possible. Of course, I also realise that it's important to prevent a map from becoming boring, but from what I've seen, people only use "interesting" gimmicks because they lack creativity. There are loads of ways to make things interesting, or at least consistent with plenty of variance, while still using jumps and the like sparingly.

Noting that this provision has already been used (albeit incorrectly) in unranking a map due to partially subjective-based quality concerns. Considering stripping this amendment down to simply stating that a group of 8 BAT may unrank a map over a subjective issue that they all agree on, provided that they all actively work towards restoring the map to a rankable state as soon as possible.

If you want to add it, bubble it, give it a few days and then heart it, Eph.
Let me rightout start with bubbling this to show that time is running out to discuss this

I'm not really agree with the bubble of this rule atm since

a) the discussion didn't bring some relly positve opinions about this rule
b) how should it really work now?, we will need 8 BAT to bubble/rank/approve a map? If it's so this will mean that new mappers will have no chance to become a map ranked,atm we don't have so many BATs to give they more ''work'' as they already have.

Lally wrote:

b) how should it really work now?, we will need 8 BAT to bubble/rank/approve a map? If it's so this will mean that new mappers will have no chance to become a map ranked,atm we don't have so many BATs to give they more ''work'' as they already have.

No, ranking will remain as is, but if a substantial group of BATs disagree with the map for subjective reasons (quality) it can be unranked.

my missunderstood then
the rule must explain it better because how it's wroten atm many people can missunderstood how i already did

The first portion of the rule is just a reminder about map quality before ranking, the 2nd part is the one that states that when a substantial ammount of BATs deem it a map may be unranked, it is written fine tho i can see why you would be confused.

I like the unrank if bad system more than the long ranking process. Bad ranked maps will shine through as players complain about it, and BATs will unrank them if the complaints have merit.

Ephemeral wrote:

Let's open a can of worms.

Beatmaps must be assessed by the presiding BAT and community modders as being of sufficient quality at a general level before they can be considered ready for ranking. This means that maps which are technically rankable under the criteria but are widely considered (8 or more members of the BAT over any opposing consensus) by the staff to be unrefined or in considerable need of improvement may be unranked or rendered unrankable if no suggested changes are made in an appropriate timeframe.

Some changes to this format.

Beatmaps must be assessed by the presiding BAT and community modders as being of sufficient quality at a general level before they can be considered ready for ranking.

Is community modder the new official term for modders with authority under the new modding system? I think this needs to be more specific, because we got a minimum star priority requirement before a song can be ranked. This needs to be taken into account either directly referring to star rating or requiring a minimum number of modders to be considered rankable. I'm going to say this number is 5.

Beatmaps must be assessed by at least 2 BATs as being of sufficient quality at a general level and have received a minimum of 5 mods from different people to be considered ready for ranking.

I'm having a difficult time translating the last part into a workable rule. The second statement doesn't describe what the first statement actually means. The problem here is that you're saying that any map must meet a general consensus of 8 BATs that it meets a general level of quality, when in reality we can't expect that to be the case for every map and including such phrasing will cause confusion. I don't think we should be confusing the actual ranking process and the terms that BATs reserve to stop maps from being ranked. You can exclude the part that says the second statement explains the first one, which is false.

Altogether we have:

Beatmaps must be assessed by at least 2 BATs as being of sufficient quality at a general level and have received a minimum of 5 distinct mods per map to be considered ready for ranking. Gamemode specific maps must receive at least 3 distinct mods; at least one of which must be from someone experienced in that specific gamemode. Maps which are technically rankable under the criteria but are widely considered (8 or more members of the BAT over any opposing consensus) by the staff to be unrefined or in considerable need of improvement may be unranked or rendered unrankable if no suggested changes are made in an appropriate timeframe.

IMO- "by the staff" sounds redundant. You could probably remove it from the rule.

In this version there is a distinction between how a map is ranked and the process on how unrankable criteria is discussed. There should be no confusion about whether it takes 2 or 8 BAT to rank a map using the phrasing I have made. The limits placed upon modding can be changed as you see fit. Under the new system, there must be at least 3 mods that exclude mods by BATs. I think requiring at least 3-5 mods per map in a mapset is reasonable to expect from any ranked map. I am highly skeptical that a mapper can perfect a mapset in under 3 mods. It can be discussed whether BAT mods count towards the requirement.

If this rule gets added, can there also be a rule for people to stop dicking around in said beatmap's thread (Possibly locking it or whatever idunno)

Like rather than having 5 pages of rage really doesn't help the map get ranked at all nor is anybody going to be like "Oh yeah whoops sorry there here's your map back!"

Mostly because people don't unrank over bad blankets or missing claps or anything, and like, most of it has already been discussed in #lounge, so it's kind of redundant to open it up to the general public when it's already been discussed by staff.

finding two BATs is already hard...
Well this would bring more quality to maps but would kill mappers' motivation on getting stuff ranked.
(Although this might be something positive at some point, iykwim.)

I think "8 or more members of the BAT" should be "8 or more members of the BAT, at least 2 for every region". This makes sure that the decision is based on the whole team.

popner wrote:

I think "8 or more members of the BAT" should be "8 or more members of the BAT, at least 2 for every region". This makes sure that the decision is based on the whole team.

What? That makes no sense at all. Does this mean we have to labeled on our knowledge of mapping/modding by what FLAG WE HAVE?

This is nonsense. We do not base quality by region. There tends to be some bias in certain regions about other regions.
We will never apply regional differences within the staff, because this is discrimination and racism.

Discard that. I will disallow this approach as long as I exist in the staff.

Quality by region is rather racist the way it sounds. I do agree with making the ranking requirements a bit more strict but the motivation will get down.

I agree with what Loctav wrote:

never apply regional differences within the staff, because this is discrimination and racism.

The region means time region, or time zone. Either this, or a 24h discussion. We treat each subjective unrank case by case. Subjective unrank should not be a simple decision that can be made quickly.

The time region is meaningless. Like stated in the rule, if 8 BATs agree, it can be unranked. This shouldn't be truly not rushed. That's why we have internal regulations that try to involve all time zones (I don't want to get detailed in this thread)

In conclusion: if you are afraid that your asian time zone is afraid of maps being unranked because western time zone BATs will group up, you will have enough time to gather contradicting opinions.

Also I heavily dislike this group thinking.

Rule will be finalized within 3 days as:

Members of the Beatmap Appreciation Team may unrank a beatmap on "subjective" quality grounds so long as they gather the consensus of 7 other members of the team, for a total of 8 BAT supporting the unrank. This unrank must be supported by well-thought and clear instructions on how to resolve the issues mentioned.

Well phrased. I guess maybe there should be a statute of limitations to add to this rule. It doesn't need to be included in the finalized version immediately, but we should decide around a time where a beatmap is considered too old to derank. I really like how you rephrased it though. It's much clearer about how it is to be handled.

I have some questions. Will gamemode specific maps still require the same amount of people to agree? Do we even have 8 BATs who know enough about CTB or mania to unrank a map? How long do you estimate the whole process to take? I think it might cause some frustration if a map is ranked for a week and then the BATs finally conclude it should be deranked. It might take a few days just for someone to realize there are issues in a map and any discussion would just add onto that time. Players tend to expect that a map with no unrankable issues will stay ranked. It would be particularly upsetting if problems with one map causes a derank and score wipe of the entire mapset. What about the possibility of partial score wiping? I think that would be incredibly helpful under the new system when it comes into effect. I have an even better idea. What if you could temporarily suspend score submission of maps (not the entire mapset) that are in debate and allow changes to only those maps. If the proper changes aren't made within a set time limit, consider whether the rest of the mapset is rankable without that difficulty and proceed accordingly.

Once discussions have begun, the mapper should be aware of what the problems are and I think it would be nice to include a notification message that indicates whether a map is under review. One way of implementing this would be to edit the beatmap's information page. This will not be very effective, because people who download through osu!direct, and who have already downloaded the map will likely not see the message and still assume that the map will forever be ranked. Sometime in the near future it would be nice to see the ingame notification system be used for situations such as this.

I highly recommend that the process of unranking maps be refined before the new ranking system gets implemented. Rules such as this that require several days to come to a decision and need to be carried out while causing as little grief as possible. It isn't the beatmapper's fault if we rank a map that is below acceptable standards. We should at least make an effort to minimize damage.

I would make a feature request for this, but it is one of those things that shouldn't need to be discussed endlessly. I think these things need to be possible at some point. It will be bad for osu's image if they aren't implemented.

Did this rule will affect maps what was ranked 1 week ago and older? If not, it should be mentiored in rule's text imo.

Ephemeral wrote:

Rule will be finalized within 3 days as:

Members of the Beatmap Appreciation Team may unrank a beatmap on "subjective" quality grounds so long as they gather the consensus of 7 other members of the team, for a total of 8 BAT supporting the unrank. This unrank must be supported by well-thought and clear instructions on how to resolve the issues mentioned.

Finalizing this.