Ensuring quality is not about majority or popularity contests. If 8 BATs, who have an idea, what they are talking about, think that the map is that bad that it needs to be unranked, then there is probably something wrong FOR REAL - regardless what the other majority says.
forum
[Rule] Maps must be of an agreeable level of quality
posted
Total Posts
133
Personally, I am quite astonished at the large variance of map quality present these days. Mappers are increasingly playing the quantity over quality game for whatever reason, and overall map quality is beginning to suffer for it.Mappers
Why dont you tell us the names of those mappers
overall map quality
Pick few maps from the first page that you considered to be *badly mapped* and lets ask those BATs why did they bubble/rank it if its so bad
You almost all are talking about it, and talking about it and herpiderpiderp it. But the thing is: Can you even imagine the position of a new Mapper which may has potential to make nice Maps in the future but stucks for now in a low Level? Because nobody did that. Just say that if x BATs dislike it it isn't worth to rank it or to keep it ranked. Because the Title is saying that subliminal.
Now let's think about it: If someone made a Beatmap which has actually no problems - which means that it has no unrankable issues and it isn't so bad at all - but it still does not reach the minimum of Quality how these BATs who judges about it wishes, how does should the new Mapper feels? I can tell it to you: The Mapper will be mostly sad, angry or disappointed about itself and/or on his work. You're trying to limit the numbers of Opinions to give a final result to a Beatmap but the truth is: You can't be everybody's darling. Whetever if it's a Mapper, Modder, BAT or a Player. You just can't do that. For the sake of the future, please stop trying bring something forward which cannot be moved for now.
You - which means some people - may have been mad because you see that you made some great works while other people makes worse things - according to your Maps - and getting them ranked too. This, is just how I think how some people acts. However, to describe Quality into Rules, criterias or something else is the same shit how you define effort. And many people simply don't know that. This thread is trying to split the good Mappers from the (currently) bad Mappers more and more and you know this won't go well. For now I am done what I want to say. I might give more stuff what I've thinking in this moment. :p
Now let's think about it: If someone made a Beatmap which has actually no problems - which means that it has no unrankable issues and it isn't so bad at all - but it still does not reach the minimum of Quality how these BATs who judges about it wishes, how does should the new Mapper feels? I can tell it to you: The Mapper will be mostly sad, angry or disappointed about itself and/or on his work. You're trying to limit the numbers of Opinions to give a final result to a Beatmap but the truth is: You can't be everybody's darling. Whetever if it's a Mapper, Modder, BAT or a Player. You just can't do that. For the sake of the future, please stop trying bring something forward which cannot be moved for now.
You - which means some people - may have been mad because you see that you made some great works while other people makes worse things - according to your Maps - and getting them ranked too. This, is just how I think how some people acts. However, to describe Quality into Rules, criterias or something else is the same shit how you define effort. And many people simply don't know that. This thread is trying to split the good Mappers from the (currently) bad Mappers more and more and you know this won't go well. For now I am done what I want to say. I might give more stuff what I've thinking in this moment. :p
if you're a new mapper and your maps are shit dont expect to get them ranked, try to improve first.Stefan wrote:
You almost all are talking about it, and talking about it and herpiderpiderp it. But the thing is: Can you even imagine the position of a new Mapper which may has potential to make nice Maps in the future but stucks for now in a low Level? Because nobody did that. Just say that if x BATs dislike it it isn't worth to rank it or to keep it ranked. Because the Title is saying that subliminal.
getting bad maps ranked just because "its their first map" is a horrible excuse
If it's like this , then how about limiting 1 or 2 new beatmaps per day? BATs can make a voting or something like that to determine which map has to be ranked today. If there are no beatmap that met their criteria, then no ranked beatmap that day. imo
That's not an excuse, yes. Also I've never tried to lead on this way.silmarilen wrote:
getting bad maps ranked just because "its their first map" is a horrible excuse
Improving cannot only come by saying "bad" "boring" "stop mapping". There must be a balance between that. As I said this Discussion doesn't really focused on newer Mappers. And with this Rule - what's kind stupidity - you're giving more like 70% of the Mappers no chance. Sure, try to improve yourself. But being demotivated if someone says "Your Map does not fullfil our personal criterias." is just normal then.silmarilen wrote:
if you're a new mapper and your maps are shit dont expect to get them ranked, try to improve first.
the only maps that get unranked will be the ones which ARE "so bad at all"Stefan wrote:
If someone made a Beatmap which has actually no problems - which means that it has no unrankable issues and it isn't so bad at al
That's the whole point, y'know.
why do you assume it's gonna be like that? If a map sucks that badly it gets unranked that's for some actual reasons. BATs tell the mapper these reasons, e.g. "you have only 2 different patterns in the whole map, this is not fun to play, try some more creative stuff, like XYZ".Stefan wrote:
Sure, try to improve yourself. But being demotivated if someone says "Your Map does not fullfil our personal criterias." is just normal then.
That's somethin mappers can work with, that's giving them the opprtunity to improve. Assuming they want that.
Allowing them to keep their shitmaps and not telling them they're shit will not help them.
Stefan, your points are completely invalid.
We already have enough problem with the 8 limit. The amount of new maps is way too high for your idea, since it'd cause millions of good maps still pending.Otonashi Yuzuru wrote:
If it's like this , then how about limiting 1 or 2 new beatmaps per day? BATs can make a voting or something like that to determine which map has to be ranked today. If there are no beatmap that met their criteria, then no ranked beatmap that day. imo
That Thread is completely invalid. my 2ct
I am out here because this Thread is mostly represents how osu! shouldn't be: unfunny and strict with tons of rules.
I am out here because this Thread is mostly represents how osu! shouldn't be: unfunny and strict with tons of rules.
"Unfunny and strict?" I think it's safe to say that the staff are capable of having a laugh. With the rules and guidelines, there is also plenty of room for self-expression and personal style. If we didn't have "tons of rules," then we'd have ranked maps which are far worse than they are at the moment. Making a beatmap is simple enough as a concept, but it takes a lot of effort to make something that feels cohesive. There's a reason as to why new mappers are usually bad and 2007 maps are usually inferior--they need time to develop.Stefan wrote:
That Thread is completely invalid. my 2ct
I am out here because this Thread is mostly represents how osu! shouldn't be: unfunny and strict with tons of rules.
Please somebody (of course BAT is better) drop here
I think some examples can bring this thread to a new level.
large variance of map quality present these daysand maps from this week\month\two which could be handled by this rule.
I think some examples can bring this thread to a new level.
As Sieg said - giving few examples would bring this thread to whole new level, so I do.
Because I mostly agree on what CDFA said, I'm going to drop my 2 cents here
(Sorry Andrea for using you as example)
I don't want to actually start a flame war - And I could be wrong - but these maps fits their quotations very good. And I could even provide at least one problem with them if you don't agree with me.
Because I mostly agree on what CDFA said, I'm going to drop my 2 cents here
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/88299CDFA wrote:
For instance, Cut Ver. maps. Piss me off uncontrollably. I understand like Eroge OPs and stuff, and cutting songs that repeat (Mostly like vidja game music), but when you have a full version song, cut it after the first chorus, and go off and get it ranked magically, that's pretty bad. There can easily be a rule saying "Songs should not be cut without due reason." BATs can also be harder on it by not being so fluffy wuffy and getting what can be done next time done now.
Same with like guest diff maps. I swear there was a rule where mappers had to map at least 2 of the diffs in a map (Or at least participate like in a collab diff or something.). But there's a lot of maps where people are like "MAP ONE DIFF LOL OTHER DIFFS ARE DUMB IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE PUBLISHING THIS FOR A GAME OR ANYTHING", which is totally a sign of low quality. A rule can be made easily.http://osu.ppy.sh/s/94623
(Sorry Andrea for using you as example)
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/76731Mr Color wrote:
I've been seeing a lot of very uninteresting mapsets lately, 2-diff mapsets that clearly have no gameplay experience to bring, very low user rated beatmaps, and just maps that are boring and uninspired and get very few plays. I think these are the one that the "level of quality" is aimed at. I don't think we're talking about "this is fun but dodgy, let's see if we can get 8 BATs to change it" but more like "hey, this really brings nothing to the game, why is it here" type of deal. Of course, that's a very blunt way of putting things, but it is true. You have no idea how few beatmaps I download these days because at least 1/3 of them are 2-diff mapsets or clearly show no effort in making them. And I know for a fact that I'm not alone.
I don't want to actually start a flame war - And I could be wrong - but these maps fits their quotations very good. And I could even provide at least one problem with them if you don't agree with me.
"Quality checkers" should be a separate group of people from BATs, they shouldn't look at the technical side, just the playing side. The biggest problem for me with this is that a lot of BATs can't understand the playing quality of a map because they can't play it. This rule seems like it's aimed at maps which are hard to play because let's face it, a typical hard difficulty is a typical hard difficulty (9 times out of 10), a normal is always a normal and an easy is an easy, it's uncommon to find exceptionally interesting maps in there difficulties. Insane+ maps however tend to vary GREATLY and you need to be able to understand the appeal of each part of the variety if you want to regulate it.
People are too uppety about this kind of thing though, I mean the opposite isn't true so why should it work this way? Why can't maps of an exceptional quality be ranked without going through opinionated mods? I like mappers having freedom but I don't like bad mapping. Trying to regulate an opinion is difficult, if this passes AT LEAST make the decision require a rather high quantity of BATs to agree (a voting system on nominated maps in some hidden away BAT area perhaps?)
If this is aimed at "generic" difficulties, I don't agree. They always have been generic and always will be and in my eyes they will always be there for people to jump on, just more maps for me not to play.
People are too uppety about this kind of thing though, I mean the opposite isn't true so why should it work this way? Why can't maps of an exceptional quality be ranked without going through opinionated mods? I like mappers having freedom but I don't like bad mapping. Trying to regulate an opinion is difficult, if this passes AT LEAST make the decision require a rather high quantity of BATs to agree (a voting system on nominated maps in some hidden away BAT area perhaps?)
If this is aimed at "generic" difficulties, I don't agree. They always have been generic and always will be and in my eyes they will always be there for people to jump on, just more maps for me not to play.
^What I've been saying for years. But apparently most people is unable to understand that pretty much anything below Insane = generic maps that will always be the same. You can't do much on an easy or normal, you can barely do anything cool on Hards (and when you do they usually end up being Insanes) and then again even low tier Insanes are almost always the same, it gets interesting when the level goes really high and then it stop being technical. There are tons of high level insanes that got ranked after rotting for ages without any real change happening, they were there just because they used to get avoided by BATs because they were complex, hard to mod probably and of course THEY COULDN'T PLAY THEM.
I still hold my idea thjat if you can't play a map then you are not able to properly feel how it plays, how good it is and what should be changed, minor technical things like offset, maybe some timing, and that stuff is ok, but anything else is just no, you can't do it. Any good player can test and judge a map in a matter of 10~15 minutes (leaving aside some technical things no one really cares about other than mods) yet whenever some hard maps goes for ranking it takes months if not years of "work" to get them ranked.
I think I could make a list consisting on more than 100 maps that are all more interesting, original and fun to play than most maps getting ranked nowadays, and I'm sure any somewhat good active player can do the same thing (assuming they kind of explore the world of unranked maps).
I still hold my idea thjat if you can't play a map then you are not able to properly feel how it plays, how good it is and what should be changed, minor technical things like offset, maybe some timing, and that stuff is ok, but anything else is just no, you can't do it. Any good player can test and judge a map in a matter of 10~15 minutes (leaving aside some technical things no one really cares about other than mods) yet whenever some hard maps goes for ranking it takes months if not years of "work" to get them ranked.
I think I could make a list consisting on more than 100 maps that are all more interesting, original and fun to play than most maps getting ranked nowadays, and I'm sure any somewhat good active player can do the same thing (assuming they kind of explore the world of unranked maps).
Peoples are keep saying, and things are going their old way as always.
tl;dr: A bunch of very basic rules is enough, rest is not necessary. You can't judge how good a map's quality is if you can't properly play it, therefore many maps can't be judged by BATs because they are not good enough to play them and understand how good/bad the map is, ergo this rule makes little sense, but w/e some things are never gonna change.
Just used your words, inverted the numbers and +/- terms, same logic, just to show you that's just a very poor argument.
I got a question for you:
If 2 BATs think a map is bad and it shouldn't be ranked, and you get like 50 active good players telling you the map is fine, really fun and it would be really cool that it got ranked, what would you do?
If 20 BATs actually think, it is good, it must be good, else they wouldn't be BATs. Even if 8 of them think, it is bad, 20 is a good number to say that it is good.Loctav wrote:
If 8 BATs actually think, it is bad, there must be something bad, else they wouldn't be BATs. Even if 20 of them think, it is fine, 8 is a good number to say that there is at least something heavily wrong.CXu wrote:
Out of curiosity: what happens if 8 BATs think something is bad, but 4/6/8/10/whatevernumber of BATs disagree?
I hope you get this logic. lol
Just used your words, inverted the numbers and +/- terms, same logic, just to show you that's just a very poor argument.
I got a question for you:
If 2 BATs think a map is bad and it shouldn't be ranked, and you get like 50 active good players telling you the map is fine, really fun and it would be really cool that it got ranked, what would you do?
If the BAT can't play it, then they aren't qualified to rank it either. If we want to go this route, then we could say that it is unrankable because it's too difficult.
This rule doesn't change anything. If a BAT cannot beat a map, they should be seeking advise from people who can or we should be recruiting BATs who are better players. Limiting power because of physical capabilities is silly.
Edit: There are BATs that can play super difficult maps. SapphireGhost being the example that comes to mind.
This rule doesn't change anything. If a BAT cannot beat a map, they should be seeking advise from people who can or we should be recruiting BATs who are better players. Limiting power because of physical capabilities is silly.
Edit: There are BATs that can play super difficult maps. SapphireGhost being the example that comes to mind.
Thing is the BAT recruiting is usually based on stuff that good active players don't usually do. Like if I want to be a BAT I gotta go mod lots of maps, maybe even map, etc, what does that have to do with being a good player able to judge how good/fun a map is? I think it's more something like a base problem.
Edit: I don't really know who's a BAT and who's not, I know there are some very good players there, yet they are just a few, not enough. Maybe make a special division within BATs where you get like the pro player BATs just mod specific maps (very hard ones) while the rest work on easier ones?
Edit: I don't really know who's a BAT and who's not, I know there are some very good players there, yet they are just a few, not enough. Maybe make a special division within BATs where you get like the pro player BATs just mod specific maps (very hard ones) while the rest work on easier ones?
The more you're able to play, the less able you are to tell if something is bad.
Behold, our new BAT master, the ultimate quality checker...those wrote:
The more you're able to play, the less able you are to tell if something is bad.
https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1585937
Just jokin' with ya', but I disagree with this, I'd argue that they can just understand more aspects of playing.
You are very funny.those wrote:
The more you're able to play, the less able you are to tell if something is bad.
Does anybody have a reaction image? I could really use one right now. There is loads that can be done with easier maps. The only issue is that most people are apparently unable to understand how to use simple, consistent and interesting phrasing.Wishy wrote:
But apparently most people is unable to understand that pretty much anything below Insane = generic maps that will always be the same. You can't do much on an easy or normal, you can barely do anything cool on Hards (and when you do they usually end up being Insanes) and then again even low tier Insanes are almost always the same, it gets interesting when the level goes really high and then it stop being technical.
By the way, those is right in a sense. I always feel like experienced players and mappers have became conditioned to certain quirks, simply because they've encountered them so many times. Does this mean that the quirks should be deemed as acceptable? I don't think so. There's a reason why older people come back after a hiatus and whinge about certain things in newer maps. It''s because they haven't been around to get used to them as trends.
Uh I don't really have much to say here that hasn't been said already (from the both sides actually), but are we really gonna derail this into another "BATs can't play this game" argument?
Come on guys... :/
Come on guys... :/
Or you're more able to tell what's actually good, and regarding some "bad" patterns for inexperienced players as "good" patterns from an experienced player's POV.those wrote:
The more you're able to play, the less able you are to tell if something is bad.
I mean, an inexperienced player may regard With a Dance Number as a shitmap (and maybe some BATs, idk), but try unrank that and see the shitstorm, lol.
Well, you still need to figure out where your own skills are in regards to the general playerbase that's going to play said map. If there is one awesomely cool, but very difficult pattern in a [Hard], you don't leave it, you point it out. Same if you have an easier [Insane] with some ridiculous pattern (even if you are able to play it).
Well, what I mean is basically: you kinda need both experience in modding and playing when judging a map.
Yes, I don't disagree with that. But too much experience playing hinders your modding credibility.CXu wrote:
Well, what I mean is basically: you kinda need both experience in modding and playing when judging a map.
More experience = more skill = you can judge more maps because you can play them.
D33d, people who quit for years and came back whine because most of ranked maps are average crap (yes, they are) and then cry about the hard maps because they haven't played the game for like 2 years and hard maps today are too much for them. I almost never download maps and have personally "quit" for periods of months (from 1 to maybe 5) and yet whenever I download new maps usually I'm amused because they are really fun an intense, that's one of the few reasons I keep coming back to this game....
I stopped playing a lot of times (even if I played a little all I did was play old maps I hade played 500 times), came back, looked for some new maps that didn't exist back then when I was playing, and then proceed to have lots of fun with them, then the cycle repeats... of course, not talking about ranked maps, those are still the same, some are decent/worth the time but most are just boring/plain/average. If I had to say what I think about how BATs are doing their job, from my POV: not good, it's been years since some problems arised and they remain unsolved.
D33d, people who quit for years and came back whine because most of ranked maps are average crap (yes, they are) and then cry about the hard maps because they haven't played the game for like 2 years and hard maps today are too much for them. I almost never download maps and have personally "quit" for periods of months (from 1 to maybe 5) and yet whenever I download new maps usually I'm amused because they are really fun an intense, that's one of the few reasons I keep coming back to this game....
I stopped playing a lot of times (even if I played a little all I did was play old maps I hade played 500 times), came back, looked for some new maps that didn't exist back then when I was playing, and then proceed to have lots of fun with them, then the cycle repeats... of course, not talking about ranked maps, those are still the same, some are decent/worth the time but most are just boring/plain/average. If I had to say what I think about how BATs are doing their job, from my POV: not good, it's been years since some problems arised and they remain unsolved.
This discussion has nothing to do with the proposed rule. The rule still barely changes what BATs can already do. What they are doing now will still be what they will be doing after this gets written down somewhere. I highly doubt old maps will be unranked. There is an unwritted rule that maps that are ranked for a certain period of time are barred from being unranked unless there is a serious unrankable issue found.
That probably depends on the map itself, and what it's supposed to be. If the map is supposed to be difficult (of course, fitting the song), then difficult patterns that an inexperienced player would deem unreadable might be perfectly readable for anyone at a certan skill-level. If a modder with enough experience plays that map, then they can also much easier suggest changes to a hard pattern so that it still retains the same flow/pattern/whatever, while improving it at other aspects.those wrote:
Yes, I don't disagree with that. But too much experience playing hinders your modding credibility.CXu wrote:
Well, what I mean is basically: you kinda need both experience in modding and playing when judging a map.
If you can't play it, it's really hard to understand how some flow or pattern work. Not that you can't learn how they work to an extent just through modding and watching, but having the experience behind definiely helps, atleast imo.
Let me provide a good example.
It takes an ear to listen to the objects on the timeline and match it with what's in the music; so far, over the past many years, maps have been ranked without going through this check. Surely that doesn't take playing experience; and on the contrary, playing experience will deem this fine when it is actually not mapped to the music, making it not fine.
It takes an ear to listen to the objects on the timeline and match it with what's in the music; so far, over the past many years, maps have been ranked without going through this check. Surely that doesn't take playing experience; and on the contrary, playing experience will deem this fine when it is actually not mapped to the music, making it not fine.
Just because a pattern consists of objects matching what's in the music, which yes, someone who doesn't play the game can do, doesn't mean said modder can figure out if that pattern is actually readable or not, especially when going up to higher difficulty.
Also, I don't agree with the "maps should follow the music 1:1" but let's not go there as it doesn't really matter, and is more a different opinion on what a map is.
Actually, I don't even know if this modding discussion is that relevant to this topic.
Also, I don't agree with the "maps should follow the music 1:1" but let's not go there as it doesn't really matter, and is more a different opinion on what a map is.
Actually, I don't even know if this modding discussion is that relevant to this topic.
I guess nobody read this? Ephemeral even added that the BATs in this group of 8 will each be required to help the mapper with getting it re-ranked quickly, though this almost always happens. This thread is derailing and going nowhere.Makar wrote:
Do you guys realize that nothing changes with this rule? It just gives our permissions a written down definition that is more specific.
peppy wrote:
Keep in mind that as much as you disagree with the rules, if you are able to take a step back and look at the outcome of setting stricter rules, you will realise they will only do the community good. Try to think about these things objectively rather than how it may affect or offend you personally.
Basically, I am just posting this to say that while I also have a few problems with some of the rules here, it is a working document and changes can be made. If you don't agree with something:
* State the exact rule you do not agree with (do not focus on the new rules as an overall "bad" thing).
* State why you do not agree with it. Make sure you have a better reason than "I don't like it" or "that's not how I roll".
* State how you would reword or change the rule in order to make it work better for the good of the community.
Do not attack other people. Do not criticise how this thread was made, or who was and who wasn't included in its creation. You are all here now to help us shape these rules into something that will increase the quality of mapping to a new level.
Yes these rules are in place, but if they are stopping you from getting your existing beatmap from being ranked, your map isn't suddenly going to explode. We can talk these things through and if the result is an unrankable map, you *can* decide to change your map.
It's a bit late to say this, but please only post if you can abide by the points I have mentioned above. So far only a small portion of posts have managed to do this. Feel free to delete your posts if you didn't, as you are not being productive.
Not really, playing experience makes you understand some of those checks are not necessary, if the map feels fine and has a good flow some 1/4 mapped over some 1/3 thing is not a major problem, of course each case is different, but when it's clearly "wrong" you can usually notice it by just playing it.those wrote:
Let me provide a good example.
It takes an ear to listen to the objects on the timeline and match it with what's in the music; so far, over the past many years, maps have been ranked without going through this check. Surely that doesn't take playing experience; and on the contrary, playing experience will deem this fine when it is actually not mapped to the music, making it not fine.
show me a 2013 map doing this, please.Wishy wrote:
some 1/4 mapped over some 1/3
imo mappers are finally understanding that they at least should follow the song. Not talking about overmapping, which is still done FAAAR too often, but only about simplifying stuff which is not the way to go.
I'm not saying that ALL bats should be able to play ALL maps, just that that harder and more complex maps should at least get some input from the better players in the team.
I'm neither in support or against the proposal, if it works then great but I'm not so sure it will.
I'm neither in support or against the proposal, if it works then great but I'm not so sure it will.
It was just an example, same way I don't care if they put some 1/2 that doesn't really fit with the song perfectly but goes really good with the gameplay. I'd like to provide an example but I rarely download maps at all.Zarerion wrote:
show me a 2013 map doing this, please.Wishy wrote:
some 1/4 mapped over some 1/3
imo mappers are finally understanding that they at least should follow the song. Not talking about overmapping, which is still done FAAAR too often, but only about simplifying stuff which is not the way to go.
Actually, citing Remmy and Roddie as examples, the complaints were more along the lines of "Nobody cares about spacing, actual readability etc." You know, certain guidelines which ought to be followed and not excused with "oh, just read by the hitcircles" or any other flimsy excuse. This sort of thing--the sorts of good habits which can actually make it possible to be more creative with patterns--could easily be scrutinised by staff members who know what they're doing. I don't necessarily making all of a map's spacing consistent either; rather, taking some form of action when a ranked map has loads of gimmicks which don't actually relate to the music. Other than that, a map which overdoes certain quirks--whether it's sloppy jumps everywhere or annoying SV changes--could surely be questioned in regards to its quality.Wishy wrote:
More experience = more skill = you can judge more maps because you can play them.
D33d, people who quit for years and came back whine because most of ranked maps are average crap (yes, they are) and then cry about the hard maps because they haven't played the game for like 2 years and hard maps today are too much for them.
These are the types of things which could make me wonder why something was ranked, but there'd be plenty of other reasons to think that something has failed on a technical level. There may also be reasons to think that something has failed on a musical level, or simply on an appropriateness level, but my point is that there are those with experience who have valid reasons to complain about quality.
If you guys want to talk about the judge ability, I have something to say. Believe or not, most non-mapper players have a very unstable taste of the map. They care more about "whether I like the song" "whether I can FC it" "whether the map is incredible difficult". You can see this in the best of 2012.
I had a research about this too. I picked out 10 newly ranked maps and put them in 5 groups, and gave them to some non-mapper players and mappers. I asked them to choose the better map in each group. The result was quite different: for normal player all maps get similar number of supports, while mappers have a clear judge of them(the flow, the structure and the hitsounds etc.). Normal players can tell that "Oh, that map(or that part) plays good!" but can't pick up any detail about why it is good.
Make sure you have done a similar experiment before refuting me.
It is quite silly to suspect BATs' ability to do this work. Anyway I think the thread are discussing something irrelevant now, and better not to do this.
I had a research about this too. I picked out 10 newly ranked maps and put them in 5 groups, and gave them to some non-mapper players and mappers. I asked them to choose the better map in each group. The result was quite different: for normal player all maps get similar number of supports, while mappers have a clear judge of them(the flow, the structure and the hitsounds etc.). Normal players can tell that "Oh, that map(or that part) plays good!" but can't pick up any detail about why it is good.
Make sure you have done a similar experiment before refuting me.
It is quite silly to suspect BATs' ability to do this work. Anyway I think the thread are discussing something irrelevant now, and better not to do this.
i don't think map quality dropped now, the average quality in new ranked maps is obviously better than in 2012
controversial maps you discussed are not quality problems, i would say controversial maps are mostly god maps
real quality problems are problems where no one will support not changing it
controversial maps you discussed are not quality problems, i would say controversial maps are mostly god maps
real quality problems are problems where no one will support not changing it
Topic Starter
A significant consensus of 8 or more BAT would be required in order for this rule to be utilised. That is, if 20 BAT feel this is necessary but 28 BAT feel that the map is fine, the rule cannot be invoked.
I will specify this more clearly in the original wording.
I will specify this more clearly in the original wording.
Ok, after a try to stop "overmapping", we got an EVEN MORE SUBJECTIVE rule proposal?
The map quality IS certainly increasing, those days to get the first rank is HARD. SO DAMN HARD. You did see how now first-ranked maps are CERTAINLY of averagely better than most of the first-ranked maps of 2012 ( this is retroactive ).
The work of of a BAT as now is to control a map quality, map can be ranked by BAT.
With the new system, only a few will be able to do it, and most of that few are arguably good modders, not random people.
The most you can do is asking for modder to check the quality of the map more throughly (and most do a simple "rankability" check), but hey, we're human and we can do errors.
It's actually better to have something like 24/48 hrs in which a modder can deem the map "low quality" and the mapper itself or at least 75% BATs Members from at least 12(examples: 9 from 12, 12 from 16, 15 from 20,18 from 24,21 from 28, 24 from 36, etc) integrated in the ranking process.
It was actually arleady said by peppy that BATs role would still be "checking the maps were of a good quality" too, so we don't need rule that say us that our maps should be of a good quality, especially cause it's subjective.
The map quality IS certainly increasing, those days to get the first rank is HARD. SO DAMN HARD. You did see how now first-ranked maps are CERTAINLY of averagely better than most of the first-ranked maps of 2012 ( this is retroactive ).
The work of of a BAT as now is to control a map quality, map can be ranked by BAT.
With the new system, only a few will be able to do it, and most of that few are arguably good modders, not random people.
The most you can do is asking for modder to check the quality of the map more throughly (and most do a simple "rankability" check), but hey, we're human and we can do errors.
It's actually better to have something like 24/48 hrs in which a modder can deem the map "low quality" and the mapper itself or at least 75% BATs Members from at least 12(examples: 9 from 12, 12 from 16, 15 from 20,18 from 24,21 from 28, 24 from 36, etc) integrated in the ranking process.
It was actually arleady said by peppy that BATs role would still be "checking the maps were of a good quality" too, so we don't need rule that say us that our maps should be of a good quality, especially cause it's subjective.