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Spinner Regulation Discussion

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Total Posts
56

How do you feel about the current spinner situation ?

I never noticed
15
18.52%
It's not a big problem
23
28.40%
It bothers me
24
29.63%
Something MUST be done about this
19
23.46%
Total votes: 81
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bagnz0r
bagnz0r
I agree with you.
Well, maybe 2000 is perhaps too much, for me 1000 is enough.
And... Speaking of bonus. I think that everyone will not get constant RPM or fast enough to get always 2000.
So minimum bonus is a stupid thing... How about a minimum time?
Echo
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Echo
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bagnz0r
bagnz0r

Echo wrote:

We're talking about auto, not human player
Even in this case it doesn't make any sense.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
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ThePassingShadow
330 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
ThePassingShadow

Echo wrote:

As soon as the word "exception" comes out of anyone's mouth, every map afterwards will want to be an exception.

I agree with enforcing this rule.

(and yes I do regret making WiW... sometimes)
I agree. So that's why I'm trying for the 'set in stone' push. Because right now it isn't, and all I see coming into the ranked beatmaps section is tons of ninja spinners.

Ekaru wrote:

I highly regret that one spinner in Knight of the Wind. >_>; Ruined the whole map IMO.
I actually planned on posting this map as well, but I forgot last night.

Ekaru wrote:

If you want to challenge a player, then make it "fair". As in, do it the old fashion way of jumps, fast sliders, ect. Short spinners followed by a hit circle 1/2 beat after = FAILURE. It doesn't challenge the player so much as piss them off. You can see jumps, lots of hit circles, slider paths, ect., but you can't see if a note's going to come after a spinner til you're already spinning (if the note appears as the spinner appears, you're doing it wrong. >_>)
Completely agree. This is how I feel.


Metroid wrote:

Well meant as in 2 BATs agree with the spinners that they're ok even know they are under 2000 Bonus....
Also I like WIW, I don't find the spinners hard to pass....
WiW can be fun, but I don't think it should be ranked and I DEFINITELY think the spinners are 'easy to pass'. Some of them are so short that even if you don't touch your keyboard, you get automatic 50s. But they're TOO SHORT to do anything on. Auto 50s is no better than being unable to hit it at all or miss the notes afterwards. Point is, they're far too short.
EEeee
1,026 posts
Joined July 2008
EEeee
^_^ (^)^) ^O^ Hello







Anyways, spinners are insane, but 2000+ is how I map, and if spinners are that length, fairly possible ...... as long as there isn't a hitcircle right after the 2000+, that's hard right there
James
osu! Hall of Famer
4,371 posts
Joined January 2008
James
songs tps mentioned are old-ish already. how about pointing out new songs? like one or two months ago...
if you cant mention songs that are recently ranked, so that means the rule is enforced already.


i thought i was reading a april 6 2008 post.
MaxwellDemon
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MaxwellDemon
As far as I am concerned, this is already a regulation. Basically, what James said. XD
ThePassingShadow
330 posts
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Topic Starter
ThePassingShadow
The spinners on this one are borderline.

Tutti Frutti Summer Love

Just a song I played a few minutes ago.
MaxwellDemon
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MaxwellDemon
Granted I haven't play much of the recent maps myself. But I could easily say that I easily watch out spinners and their bonuses, so this is already part of my modding regulation.

Concerning the placement of the spinners though, I personally encourage personal style as long as it is rankable. The placement of a spinner and its usage is far too flexible to be regulated. My views might seem bias since I am personally a huge fan of short spinners, but I think it is slightly ridiculous to tell beatmappers off just because I don't like the feel of where they put their spinners. I might recommend a change, but I definitely won't enforce it, because if we had to talk about mapping styles that I dislike, I might as well just map the crap myself. :P

EDIT: I should also note that improvisation seems to have become a common trend in here, which is a good thing... if we have to regulate where spinners are, we might as well regulate all those deathstreams or stacks that have no actual beats following them.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
I'll help.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/4394

Ranked... Feb 11, 2009, look at the hardest difficulty. Look at 37:413. 1K bonus, and yes, I have trouble with it. It's sudden, short, and the note afterwards is a pain to get. This map also has lots of inappropriate spinner usage in general; most of them don't make any sense at all. It's like he used spinners just to use spinners! At least Hito uses her brain when putting in spinners. Lots of long-ass spinners placed in random spots, often with hit circles half a beat afterwards just kills my arm, and makes me wish the map would end already. Most of those spots would've worked better as sliders, except for the spot with long spinners over and over again, where it could have just been a break if you were going to be lazy that way.

See, spinners should usually be used sparingly for a reason; they aren't fun if there are too many of them, are used inappropriately, or are too short. When used right, though, they're quite fun. But my arm has a stamina limit; if my arm has taken a rest and is in perfect condition, my arm shouldn't get sore halfway through the map. It's not fun to me.

Remember, we're not talking just about short spinners; also gay usage. Spinners over and over and over = XP There should seriously be a limit on amount too, like 5 every minute max IMO. Any more and it just gets annoying.

./rant
anonymous_old
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anonymous_old

ThePassingShadow wrote:

The spinners on this one are borderline.

Tutti Frutti Summer Love

Just a song I played a few minutes ago.
Ouch. Having the spinner end and, on the same measure, having hit circles, is quite a pain. Some of those spinners could have been removed, yes, but some of the "illegal" (under your limit of 2k on auto) spinners I would be fine with.

MaxwellDemon wrote:

Concerning the placement of the spinners though, I personally encourage personal style as long as it is rankable. The placement of a spinner and its usage is far too flexible to be regulated.
Agreed. I think short spinners fit well with Love Love Sugar (my Insane difficulty is in the works, and has difficultish spinners). They're not overly difficult on Normal (they are on Insane), but Spun Out can't handle them (100's).

I agree with everything MaxwellDemon has said. Basically, the 2k limit should be thought of as a guideline. I would suggest having a rule (which may be broken at e.g. peppy's discretion, like with high-scoring maps) where Auto must be able to 100% the song. Also, Spun Out shouldn't get any 50's except in rare cases. And absolutely no X's for obvious reasons.

@Ekaru's issue about stamina: For shorter songs (like Love Love Sugar, ~1:30) would you say "excessive" spinner usage (see my Normal) is acceptable?

I am by no means a veteran or a good map maker or modder. I do, however, enjoy some challenge when playing maps. WiW is a bit extreme, but still enjoyable. Osu! is about fun, not 100% accuracy... If you don't like a map, don't play it!

Disclaimer: Plug of my map was unintentional.
Ivalset
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Ivalset
I don't know, I feel that 100% accuracy should always be achieveable. I'm not really an accuracy whore myself as I've proven in the past, but the maximum accuracy for a song should not be less than 100%. It's fundamentally wrong. Of course, I don't know what to do exactly about the past; changing old maps is probably not a good idea. But there is no reason that maps should be made nowadays where 100% isn't achieveable.
ThePassingShadow
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Topic Starter
ThePassingShadow

Ivalset wrote:

I don't know, I feel that 100% accuracy should always be achieveable. I'm not really an accuracy whore myself as I've proven in the past, but the maximum accuracy for a song should not be less than 100%. It's fundamentally wrong. Of course, I don't know what to do exactly about the past; changing old maps is probably not a good idea. But there is no reason that maps should be made nowadays where 100% isn't achieveable.
This is something I had not even considered, but you're exactly right. Less than 100% accuracy possible doesn't make sense.
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
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LuigiHann
Personally I think "regulations" like this (the minimum spinner length) ought to be built into the editor.
anonymous_old
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anonymous_old

LuigiHann wrote:

Personally I think "regulations" like this (the minimum spinner length) ought to be built into the editor.
I hope by "minimum spinner length" you mean "300'able by Auto." Otherwise, I'll have to disagree with you. Limiting the ability of the map maker sucks. Would you prohibit lengthy songs (>= 5 minutes) in the editor?
Daru
osu!painter
866 posts
Joined August 2008
Daru
Instead of discouraging short spinners or prohibiting them altogether, why not simply change the way they behave?

Spinners shorter than a set time, for instance, will be spinnable at full RPM from the start, or would take a reasonably short amount of time to 300.

I agree with Ivalset in that all maps should be able to be completed at 100% here, though I admit I don't quite know the policy here regarding changing scoring or gameplay formulas. I think that this would "fix" some of the older maps (WiW, for instance), that require ridiculously high spin speeds to 100%, while still giving beatmappers the option for short spinners.

Granted, 300'ing short spinners will still be harder to get than 300 on longer spinners; my suggestion is to simply move this into the realm of human ability.
ThePassingShadow
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Topic Starter
ThePassingShadow

strager wrote:

LuigiHann wrote:

Personally I think "regulations" like this (the minimum spinner length) ought to be built into the editor.
I hope by "minimum spinner length" you mean "300'able by Auto." Otherwise, I'll have to disagree with you. Limiting the ability of the map maker sucks. Would you prohibit lengthy songs (>= 5 minutes) in the editor?
I think it should be limited in the editor as well. However, I think that maps that are going to be uploaded and requested for 'Approved' may have 'ninja spinners' and other things.

I think editor should ask at the beginning if the map is on the track for Approved or for Ranked. Then rules could be set accordingly. If a mapper decides to change from Ranked to Approved in mid-mapping, the regulations would be dropped, and if someone decided the opposite (Approved to Ranked), then editor would prevent uploading until the spots of violation were fixed. Editor could pop up with a warning that said, "Cannot be uploaded until spinner at 03:01:07 is removed or lengthened" or something to that effect.

But talking about the issues we have with Ranked/Approved maps is a whole different story anyway.. Let's not go off on that tangent.
Echo
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I disagree with editor-level check - I think this sort of thing should be checked at the modding level.
mattyu007
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anonymous_old
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FurukawaPan
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LuigiHann
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LuigiHann

james039 wrote:

3)Shorter-ish spinners
-Apparently there's a push for there to be a rule that a map is not rankable unless auto can get to 2000 bonus. I think that's too strict. I really think any spinner that's at least 300-able should pass.
The point in the 2000 bonus is that Auto literally spins faster than humanly possible. If it can't get a 300 then we know that no human can, but if it gets a 300 that doesn't necessarily mean it's 300able by a human player.

I would admit that the built-in editro limitation that I suggest would probably only be based on Auto being able to 300 it.
ThePassingShadow
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ThePassingShadow
I want to make it clear that I DO NOT wish to push for already ranked maps to be deranked by these new set in stone rules, if they are implemented. Just making sure this is clear.

Although WiW really should be approved...
awp
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awp
WiW is more of a light show than a beatmap, we can leave it alone for the purpose of the debate.

I have a personal rule where any spinner under 0.5s should be out, no matter what. If it's less than 0.7s, I'm very reluctant to allow it.

Sure, stifling creativity is bad, but when the hell do you ever need a spinner that short? Would it kill you to have a hitcircle, or even nothing there? Spinners that are under a second almost always fall under the category of "dick move".

Sidetracked additional thought:

Putting a spinner in the middle of a combo is often rough and disorienting, and any maps barring the most difficult (perhaps 2 most difficult) should always have some kind of breather between the spinner's end and the next note (though this is a personal choice and I don't think should require enforcing, it's just more of my "fun > difficulty" philosophy).

I don't have any problem enforcing an Auto+2000 for ranked maps. Approved should still have the 300 requirement, but I'm fine with no auto bonus for those.
lukewarmholiday
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lukewarmholiday
Instead of bothering with auto you should just ask if I can hit the spinner.
An64fan
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An64fan
I really disagree with strict regulation on the length of spinners. As you all probably know from Ushiwaka. :P

However, I do feel that even on the top-end difficulties that spinners need to be 300-able and at least be predictable and not just pop out of the blue as the truest of ninja spinners do. I've seen some of such spinners (incredibly fast and show up literally out of nowhere) in my time, and I hate these. They're very disorientating and are surefires to making the player mess up. I have to back what was said about "if you can see the beat before the spinner, you're doing it wrong" thing.

Concerning easier difficulties, yes, spinners there should definitely be longer, as the difficulty is, indeed, meant to be easier, and short spinners are just a call for less skilled players to mess up. However, I have nothing to say about a strict regulation here.

About how spinners are used, I don't want to be strict on this either, as it limits how the mapper can put their map together. Creativity is what keeps new and interesting maps coming in and being ranked, after all.
Zerostarry
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Zerostarry
I just played a few maps with ninjas...and heres what i think.

I agree with everything you said, TPS. Spinners should be used to end the map, or before breaks. NEVER in between two fast combos. I think spinners should be regulated. They should be more than 5-7 seconds long, with an average Overall Difficulty. This should be built in to the editor, too.

@Echo: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/27492 and http://osu.ppy.sh/s/3284

These maps were ranked RECENTLY, and they both contain many ninjas. This must be built in to the editor. Like, now. As long as the editor allows it, there will be ninja spinners, and some moderators hardly play this game, so they would just rank it anyways.
ThePassingShadow
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ThePassingShadow

Zerostarry wrote:

and some moderators hardly play this game, so they would just rank it anyways.

THIS is definitely something that I was waiting for someone to say. This is why Editor needs a built-in feature.
LuigiHann
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LuigiHann

Zerostarry wrote:

Spinners should be used to end the map, or before breaks. NEVER in between two fast combos. I think spinners should be regulated. They should be more than 5-7 seconds long, with an average Overall Difficulty. This should be built in to the editor, too.
I very strongly disagree with that level of restriction. Aside from the super-short spinners which I think should be eliminated, I think everything else being discussed here is a matter of taste, and not something that should be imposed as a rule. Different mappers use spinners in different ways, and I think that's fine.
MaxwellDemon
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Gens
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Echo
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Echo

Zerostarry wrote:

@Echo: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/27492 and http://osu.ppy.sh/s/3284

These maps were ranked RECENTLY, and they both contain many ninjas.
Shoot m980 and tapdancingmetroid

very late edit:
Equally annoying are beats right after spinners. I think these shouldn't be allowed either - I propose there must be at least half a beat between the end of a spinner and the next note, but preferably a whole beat.
ThePassingShadow
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ThePassingShadow

Echo wrote:

very late edit:
Equally annoying are beats right after spinners. I think these shouldn't be allowed either - I propose there must be at least half a beat between the end of a spinner and the next note, but preferably a whole beat.
^

That's my main problem with quick spinners.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
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lukewarmholiday
We cant really make a rule, you're all osu players, if something just trips you up in a map while modding POINT IT OUT. Even if there is nothing technically wrong with it.

like Boten Anna's just flat out absurd difficulty jump.
mm201
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mm201
Spinners are a design choice, just like anything else in a map.

Naturally, if they make the map unplayable or hardly playable, they should be refused ranking. Beyond that, we can't something to be changed "because it sucks" if it's still within the beatmapping guidelines.

There will always be good maps and bad maps. Spinner abuse is just another thing which can make a map bad. FC & forget.
ThePassingShadow
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ThePassingShadow

MetalMario201 wrote:

Spinners are a design choice, just like anything else in a map.

Naturally, if they make the map unplayable or hardly playable, they should be refused ranking. Beyond that, we can't something to be changed "because it sucks" if it's still within the beatmapping guidelines.

There will always be good maps and bad maps. Spinner abuse is just another thing which can make a map bad. FC & forget.
The thing is...

The posters in this thread (most of them) feel that the beatmapping guidelines need to be changed to make a better overall osu! experience.
Cyclone
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Cyclone

lukewarmholiday wrote:

We cant really make a rule, you're all osu players, if something just trips you up in a map while modding POINT IT OUT. Even if there is nothing technically wrong with it.

like Boten Anna's just flat out absurd difficulty jump.
Yeah, you'd think that would help, but it only ends up getting you in pointless arguments with the map's creator.


I would know, since i've been a part of quite a handful of these arguments.
Kitty McWittles
141 posts
Joined September 2008
Kitty McWittles
Input from a random average osu! player: (me)

I actually have fairly good accuracy imo, if I get 50s or 100s they usually come when beats are really far apart (irrelevant here) but I know a lot of them come from rape spinners too, stuff like: Spin, notenotenote, spin, notenotenote, spinspinspin all in the course of 8 seconds (0 time for breaks) and stuff like that just makes me go "ARGH fucking combo breaker". I'm not a machine and while I *can* spin at 450+, I either get lucky and mega-spin super fast for a few seconds and get a decent bonus, but can't adjust my arm in time and miss the next note (no problem for normal spinners, just ninjas), or I can't get spinning fast enough to avoid a <300.

I notice a lot of the really good maps come from the same mappers (I have over 3300, so I've seen quite a lot) and honestly I *think* that eventually the mappers just get tired of making difficulties that are easy enough for the "average" player to pass, so they do insane versions that only the pros have any chance of passing. I'll admit the insane versions are usually quite fun, even to me, but being ranked with ninja spinners and players like Saturos and Cyclone (and others of course) unable to get 100% is kinda... bleh.

Basically...

ThePassingShadow wrote:

The posters in this thread (most of them) feel that the beatmapping guidelines need to be changed to make a better overall osu! experience.
The majority of us are just average players and unless we have touch screen computers (which I'm actually gonna get a touch screen monitor soon... -cough-) we fail compared to you pros. Think of us nubs D:
mm201
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mm201
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Echo
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MetalMario201 wrote:

There are places where a 1-second spinner works just fine, fits, and doesn't confound the player.
Spinners by design are meant to be more than 1 second long.

Also, how common are these places where 1 second long spinners fit? I doubt it's common at all, in which case it makes much more sense to make an exception when such a case occurs, as long as the majority of BATs agree with it.
ThePassingShadow
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ThePassingShadow

MetalMario201 wrote:

ThePassingShadow wrote:

The thing is...

The posters in this thread (most of them) feel that the beatmapping guidelines need to be changed to make a better overall osu! experience.
Well, it gets really sticky trying to dictate just what kinds of spinners are appropriate. There are places where a 1-second spinner works just fine, fits, and doesn't confound the player. Likewise, there are places where a 6-second spinner is just stupid.

It becomes less a technical issue and more a creative one, and there isn't any fair way to regulate that.

If you see something you don't like when modding a map, point it out, and if the mapper understands, he'll fix it. If he doesn't, it's probably a bad map anyway.
I'm just saying that 'technically', there should never be a one-second spinner. Ever.

Make a HIT CIRCLE instead. The rule can be built into the editor (the rule would be so that the length is Auto 300 +2(3)000) and that will be 'technical' and there will be no more maps with one-second spinners.

I don't think anyone will ever convince me that a one-second spinner makes sense.
ThePassingShadow
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ThePassingShadow
I noticed people making fun of me in IRC (rightfully so) about not understanding what breaks are.

Yeah, I thought the breaks with the warning arrows weren't called 'breaks' and that the only 'breaks' were the ones long enough to have a fail/pass animation (circle or X). Now I know that even the little short sections with the warning arrows are also breaks.

So... I should edit my first post, but I'll fix it later. In the meantime, know that I feel that mappers should add short breaks rather than just filler ninja spinners.
Echo
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I disagree with both short breaks (which look ugly) and short spinners (which are just gay) - seriously, does every 2 beat section between notes need a break/spinner?

A section between 2 notes under 4 beats does not warrant a break. Anything under 1 beat means you don't add a spinner. There should be at least half a beat between the end of a spinner and the next note. Spinners should not be lined up one after the other unless they're each already fairly long.

This isn't limiting your creativity in any way. Using breaks and spinners in that manner is as illogical placing sliders outside the play area.
mm201
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mm201
I think there's some disagreement here as to just how long one second is. It's usually in the neighbourhood of two beats (with 120bpm being a comfortable average) and is long enough for Auto to rack up 3000 bonus points with Overall Difficulty slammed all the way over to max. This is about the minimum reasonable.
LuigiHann
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LuigiHann

Gens wrote:

*Looks at poll*

"It's not a big problem."

Uhm, wtf?
I voted for that one, because the first post of the thread is more about specific stylistic choices that have no reason to be enforced.

Spinners back then were used appropriately; for long sounds or the finish for the beatmap. I miss those days.

Now, spinners are used wherever.
This is not a big problem. Do I prefer the "old" style of spinner use? Yes. Does that mean it should be a rule? No. If anything, there could be guidelines or suggestions about when's a "good time to use a spinner" and when isn't.

I do agree that there are bigger issues with super-short spinners and the distance between a short spinner and the notes after it, but those are playability issues that mods and BATs are supposed to catch.
Echo
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Echo

LuigiHann wrote:

If anything, there could be guidelines or suggestions about when's a "good time to use a spinner" and when isn't.

Echo wrote:

A section between 2 notes under 4 beats does not warrant a break. Anything under 1 beat means you don't add a spinner. There should be at least half a beat between the end of a spinner and the next note. Spinners should not be lined up one after the other unless they're each already fairly long.
kideddie1501
322 posts
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kideddie1501
spinners suck! 8-)
ThePassingShadow
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ThePassingShadow

kideddie1501 wrote:

spinners suck! 8-)
Be more specific ?
kideddie1501
322 posts
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kideddie1501
spinners suck ALOT! :x
awp
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awp

kideddie1501 wrote:

spinners suck ALOT! :x
check the definition of "specific", and stop posting trash, please.

echo edit: also "alot" isn't a word, learn to spell

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