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Hardcore Newbie Mafia. (Mafia Win!)

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bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
I stated "dependable" because of my theory I posted before

I do get an impression of 'fitting in', but it's still a bit vague for me to vote on him. He maybe just not thinking critically (same goes to Q. animask earned my respect from his last post against Mashley). It also raises an suspicion whenever the person objects to the popular opinion and he may just wanted to avoid useless suspicion on him.

Even though, it's probably late and it could be a dangerous move, but I'm going to vote animask just to balance it for the second thought. This voting against Mashley is moving too fast (4 votes already). I still demand full contribution from other people on this matter + I would want to hear what Mashley has to say on this as well (he's not on at the moment :<)



Vote counts would be
animask: Mashley, bmin11
Mashley: animask, Ph0X, DxS, NoHitter
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
By the way, it's based on my gut, which are the same as you guys >_>
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Where's our host with updated vote counts?

Why are you the host bmin?

Anyways, looks like a Mashley or animask decision now. Just hope that it won't be a 4/4 split with imuffin still MIA. Looks like the worst situation since deadline is coming up soon.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
My internet dead line is coming... within 6 minutes ;_;
I hope everything will turn out good *cross finger*. Wish us luck!
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
The suspense~!!

Did I actually bring up something smart? :D
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X

NoHItter wrote:

Regarding the "questionnaire":
It's RQS or Random Questioning Stage. Basically it's a way of starting off discussion.
Yeah; we know.

NoHItter wrote:

Ph0x wrote:

NoHItter states the entent of his questionnaire, suggests we all "pseudo-vote", then votes (?) for Mashley based on (IMO) just gut feeling. The latter, of course, I didn't like; awful scummy vote.
That was why at that moment, I pseudo-voted. Your gut isn't supposed to be a huge basis for a permanent vote. (Basically what I did was like a pressure vote except since we can't change votes...)
Your "pseudo-vote" looked like an actual vote, because it was bolded. Please make the distinction next time.

NoHItter wrote:

Ph0x wrote:

NoHItter posts his suspicion list. He continues to have a FoS for Mashley, unswayed by counterarguments to his argument by several other players. He also has a FoS on animask, not believing he is a "confused townie" as the current public opinion seems to be. (Funny that he has tunnel vision for Mashley almost, yet complained about DxS having tunnel vision (which I myself did not see) for bmin.)
Mashley's explanation for his suspicious post, didn't cut it. Doing something suspicious then saying, "Opps. I didn't mean that. It was supposed to be something like this." is not quite a valid excuse. If he EBWOP'd (edit by way of post) and made the correction right after he posted, that would be more acceptable.
He wasn't EBWOP'ing; he wasn't trying to cover up what he said at all. You misinterpreted what he said, and he re-explained his intent of the post. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, but I highly doubt that here.

NoHItter wrote:

Ph0x wrote:

In this post, NoHItter also tells people who are about to be lynched to claim. Not sure what to make of that.
Isn't that standard operating procedure for the lynchee? Well it is for MafiaScum.
Yeah, but normally you don't need to tell people that. They can claim if they believe it'll help their team win. You're just setting people up for a "you didn't claim; you're clearly scum" argument.

NoHItter wrote:

Ahh crap. I forgot that since the votes are permanent, claiming when you are about to get lynched is useless.
Nope. An autolynch occurs on majority. Before then, in the "about to get lynched" stage (usually L-1 or L-2), a lynch can still occur on a different player.

An example:
Nine players, four votes on Mashley, one vote on animask. Mashley claims. People believe him, and those who aren't voting vote for animask.

It's unlikely this will be able to happen often, but if it's L-2 it's certainly possible.
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X

DeathxShinigami wrote:

Where's our host with updated vote counts?

Why are you the host bmin?
Nothing wrong with bmin posting a vote count; I did it in a few games.

bmin11 wrote:

My internet dead line is coming... within 6 minutes ;_;
I hope everything will turn out good *cross finger*. Wish us luck!
Sucks that you won't be able to be here for the last stretch.

animask wrote:

Did I actually bring up something smart? :D
Yeah. Is that really that unbelievable? ;P
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Headed off now.

Still any thoughts on a 4/4 split? I know it's so situational but you never know.
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X

DeathxShinigami wrote:

Still any thoughts on a 4/4 split? I know it's so situational but you never know.
Not sure what you mean. Mashley would be lynched then.
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
I meant with imuffin still MIA and the remaining non voters voting for animask.

Kinda hoped imuffin would've been around more for Day 1 since this was a critical day in general.

It'd create a 4/4 split unless you mean mashley gets lynched based on the times people voted.
rust45
1,085 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45
I'm not getting that gut feeling that other people are having for Mashley, and I still think animask is a confused townie, so I think I may just hold back my vote for today unless something convinces me to vote for one of them. I could vote for someone else but I figure it'd probably be useless.
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X

DeathxShinigami wrote:

I meant with imuffin still MIA and the remaining non voters voting for animask.

Kinda hoped imuffin would've been around more for Day 1 since this was a critical day in general.

It'd create a 4/4 split unless you mean mashley gets lynched based on the times people voted.
Yeah? Unless animask gets five votes, Mashley will be lynched. Read the rules:

Rules wrote:

In the event of a draw, the player who had the most votes before being tied will be lynched.

rust45 wrote:

I'm not getting that gut feeling that other people are having for Mashley, and I still think animask is a confused townie, so I think I may just hold back my vote for today unless something convinces me to vote for one of them. I could vote for someone else but I figure it'd probably be useless.
Well, it's either Mashley or animask at this point. Unless iMuffin pops up in the next few hours, it's gonna be Mashley.

Can't wait to see what Mashley has to say in the morning, xD
Quaraezha
1,491 posts
Joined February 2011
Quaraezha
Holy shit 3 pages of giantwallsoftext.
I'll try to catch up, hold on.
Quaraezha
1,491 posts
Joined February 2011
Quaraezha
(I'm sorry if this post won't contain much content, I'll just say whatever I have in mind)

Okay so, based on how it looks like so far, it's either Mashley or animask who's gonna get lynched.
Mashley's on the lead on votes, however, some are still waiting for his opinions on this
and if everyone (or most) are convinced, all non-voters will not have Mashley lynched and will vote animask instead.

I want to vote Mashley too since I'm kinda suspicious of him, but I want to hear his word about this too.
I'm still not too sure about animask, he still looks like townie to me :/
Mashley
2,042 posts
Joined September 2008
Mashley
Well I'm about to be lynched and there's really not much I can do. I can't shake the reason people are voting for me, because it's all baseless gut feeling. We'll you're going to regret it if you lynch me today because I'm the cop. I hope there's a Doctor in this game or I'm dead already. >_<
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Yikes, maybe taking ph0x's word isn't always the best thing to do in mafia...but I dunno about bmin's word either.

It split so evenly last night that coming up with a third option for a lynch didn't seem to justify for me.

But if you're cop there's only a 50% chance that one of us is the doctor due to the way the game is set up.

A terrible way Day 1 is going to end unless like you said Mashley, some sort of miracle happens.
Mashley
2,042 posts
Joined September 2008
Mashley
Yeah I'm dead unless the 3 people who haven't voted show up in the next hour and a half and vote for animask, which I can't really see happening. Gj bandwagoning someone before they get a chance to defend themselves guys.
Quaraezha
1,491 posts
Joined February 2011
Quaraezha
I'll vote for animask if nobody counter claims.
LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu
Searching for a replacement for imuffin.

However, day 1 will not be extended unless animask has 4 votes by deadline.

Votes will not be reset regardless of what happens.
Quaraezha
1,491 posts
Joined February 2011
Quaraezha
vote: animask
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Told you miracles can happen.

If imuffin's role is doctor...I have no idea if I can even properly predict this game.
LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu
Vote count (30 minutes to deadline):

Mashley (4) - animask, Ph0x, DxS, NoHItter
animask (3) - Mashley, bmin11, Quaraezha
LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu
Time's up. Votecount above stands.

Everyone was arguing, it was chaos in that little room. "ANIMASK!" shouted some. "MASHLEY!" shouted others. Eventually, everyone but two voted. Being open about who they were voting for, it was obvious Mashley was going to be the one killed. The ballots were counted, and armed guards came in to escort mashley out.

"I'm a cop, you know. If you had given me enough time, I could've called HQ to confirm it."

"Yeah right, the others think you're guilty, and so you're guilty."

A few concerns were raised, and although people asked to be allowed another vote, they were denied.

An hour later, a voice comes through the door:

"It turns out Mashley wasn't lying. He really was a Cop. Be careful next time, we're going to get so much crap from HQ for this."

As you wonder why they didn't just call to check if Mashley was a cop, you realize you've just lost someone vital.


Mashley - Cop - Lynched day 1.


It is now Night 1. Please send all night actions in before two days from now.
LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu
0_o replaces imuffin, effective once he posts in the thread confirming.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
Confirmed, now excuse me while I spend the rest of the day reading the most exhaustive Day 1 ever.
LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu
You awake to see Ph0X nailed to the wall, with paper from the ballots stuffed in his mouth. They all read "Ph0X".

Ph0X - Townie - Killed Night 1.

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch. Deadline is 4 days from now.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
Ok, who the hell's the doctor here? Not saving Ph0X?

This is just fantastic.... we lost a cop and the master brain of this game D:
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o

bmin11 wrote:

Ok, who the hell's the doctor here? Not saving Ph0X?

This is just fantastic.... we lost a cop and the master brain of this game D:
Well on the bright side...

I'm here now.

Yay!

Seriously though, even though Ph0X probably would have been a valuable townie to have around I'm also somewhat relieved - he had most of the players wrapped around his finger so if he turned up mafia we would have been screwed. It's good to know he's a confirmed townie since we can now take all of his analysis at face value.
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
God dammit.

Gonna post thoughts/mistakes of day 1 soon.

Also, where is everyone?
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Also, no face puns 0_o...

It'd be cool if we at least had everyone active afterall so we don't have to have a split bandwagon like last time.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
*sigh* at least we traded iMuffin with 0_o (no offence to iMuffin. Just need someone who's more active at least...)

And again, Mashley's bandwagon did went too fast. 4 votes within an hour woah @_@
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
Mafia Roleblocker. There has to be one.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
Wait, are you a doctor? and mafias got you on the first night already?!
More bad news orz.....
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
FoS on Quaraezha and rust45.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
Yeah I didn't see what you all saw in Mashley, I was a tad baffled at the bandwagon tbh (and this was before his role was revealed).

Anyway I read through the thread and here's my suspicion list, in order of most to least:

NoHItter
DxS
rust45
Quaraezha
bmin11
animask
0_o

Don't have time to go into details at the moment due to IRL business, but I thought I'd throw my two cents in for now. List is subject to change once I go through the thread more thoroughly.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
I want reasoning, animask

And FoS on NoHitter and DxS for the vote against Mashley. You guys could've waited a bit longer on bringing the verdict down
I'm not going to FoS animask until someone counter-claims him. Until then, he's my doctor
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Current suspicion list after Day 1 since a lot happened overnight for me that I didn't expect and wasn't able to translate any ideas into any movement...

rust45 (Could've saved Mashley since you were the deciding tie vote but no. Also a general lack of reasoning on hinting for who to vote earlier in your last post as well. Seems generally suspicious as Mashley gave you enough time to come on and go for animask but you CHOSE NOT TOO)

0_o (I know you're willing to take on ph0x's role of looking at all the data and helping us get a general idea of the situation
but the person you replaced had just about nothing besides lack of activity so just high on my list for now)

Player Q (Bandwagoning? you seem to just follow the flow or in this case saving Mashley for no descriptive reasoning besides the split vote scenario)

bmin11 (That vote totaling and list of FoS's led me to think Mashley was mafia but I got confused when you went for animask and phox went for mashley intended split voting? so you can lure other players like me?)

NoHItter (I guess you're not as suspicious as I initially thought you were. May do a questionnaire type thing as well seeing as we have no obvious leads only "scenario" leads)

animask (Pulled a fast one on me now but hey, newbies learn you get the least of my suspicions)

Nothing on me since no one targeted me as I was writing this post a few minutes ago.
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
rust45 failed to use actual logic when accusing me.
He is probably mafia and expecting me to be the only other one with an aux role.
No other people were suspects for Doctor besides me.


I was right when I guessed Mashley had an aux role or was mafia~
Unfortunately, he was the cop.

Some Quy, you voted for me, but I think the only other person who is the most suspicious is the one who
didn't vote for me or Mashley.

EDIT: (I'm allowed to add to my posts, right?)

bmin11, you assumed I was the Doctor pretty quickly. You're using logic or you have been thinking that all this time.
I just assumed that someone would protect Ph0X (which you stated earlier) since he was the most useful. Anyone else could
have been the Doctor.

Roleclaim: Townie lulz
Last edited by Sleep Powder , edited 2 times in total.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
bmin11 (That vote totaling and list of FoS's led me to think Mashley was mafia but I got confused when you went for animask and phox went for mashley intended split voting? so you can lure other players like me?)
tbh I didn't saw it coming. I never thought of reversing my list and the outcomes of it ;_;....
Split voting? Yes, I admit. I just didn't want people to put the lynch into a closure (he had 4 votes at the moment D:)


And after reading DxS's post and the thread itself, Mashley did claimed cop before rust45 to post. This means, rust45 KNEW Mashley could have been a cop. I do agree that it could have been taken as a mafia's last struggle... but Mashley's post did not seem like a struggle, but just giving up his game. It would have been a hard decision for you, but you end up doing nothing

FoS on rust45 addition to my FoS list
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o

bmin11 wrote:

And after reading DxS's post and the thread itself, Mashley did claimed cop before rust45 to post. This means, rust45 KNEW Mashley could have been a cop.
Hmm? Mashley claimed cop 4 hours after rust's last post. I don't see any evidence that rust was aware of the cop claim... unless I'm missing something.

EDIT: I THINK rust is in the same timezone I am, so that would mean that Mashley claimed at 5:47 AM, and the game ended 10:18 AM, Sunday morning. I'd say there's a pretty good chance he was asleep throughout that time period.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
bmin11, you assumed I was the Doctor pretty quickly. You're using logic or you have been thinking that all this time.
I just assumed that someone would protect Ph0X (which you stated earlier) since he was the most useful. Anyone else could
have been the Doctor.

animask wrote:

Mafia Roleblocker. There has to be one.
You said "HAS to be one" and I thought you were pretty clear with the role blocker thing. I guess you were just assuming ._.;; I was also wating for a counter-claim, but no one yet have done it (maybe it's NoHitter or Q? They are sleeping at the moment so that could be why they couldn't role claim).

By the way, don't claim to be a doctor at the moment. I want to ask LS if the Role Blocker would get informed if they role blocked successfully. If that's the case and you (doctor) tried to save Ph0X, claim it now so we can have a confirmed townie at least.


MOD: Does the Role Blocker gets informed if they role blocked successfully?
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

0_o wrote:

bmin11 wrote:

And after reading DxS's post and the thread itself, Mashley did claimed cop before rust45 to post. This means, rust45 KNEW Mashley could have been a cop.
Hmm? Mashley claimed cop 4 hours after rust's last post. I don't see any evidence that rust was aware of the cop claim... unless I'm missing something.

EDIT: I THINK rust is in the same timezone I am, so that would mean that Mashley claimed at 5:47 AM, and the game ended 10:18 AM, Sunday morning. I'd say there's a pretty good chance he was asleep throughout that time period.
*puff* great, I was day dreaming I guess orz..... Face palm for me and I unFoS rust45
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Sorry guys still struggling with the timezones here...

So rust would be...3 hours ahead of me then...

Anyways, gonna wait til everyone puts in input before moving onto conclusions as that's how we accidentally lynched mashley after all.
rust45
1,085 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45

0_o wrote:

bmin11 wrote:

And after reading DxS's post and the thread itself, Mashley did claimed cop before rust45 to post. This means, rust45 KNEW Mashley could have been a cop.
Hmm? Mashley claimed cop 4 hours after rust's last post. I don't see any evidence that rust was aware of the cop claim... unless I'm missing something.

EDIT: I THINK rust is in the same timezone I am, so that would mean that Mashley claimed at 5:47 AM, and the game ended 10:18 AM, Sunday morning. I'd say there's a pretty good chance he was asleep throughout that time period.
I'm actually 2 hours behind you, but your point is still true, I was asleep. When I looked through the thread when I woke up I told myself I would've voted on animask given the chance. Although I still think animask is a townie I would've done it for the obvious reasons.

Anyway, I don't get why everyone is jumping on me for not making a vote, what's happened has happened and with Mashley claiming cop, there was a good chance he would've been killed or roleblocked (more likely the latter) at night.

I think it's a better idea to look at who would kill Ph0x, and why. Looking at his last suspicious list, NoHitter and I are on there. If I was mafia, I wouldn't even kill him, as when I'm mafia, I go for those who did participate as much as others, that way I get get someone who was slowing down the game, and possibly an aux role who was trying to go noticed. Ph0x did not meet my conditions for a night 1 kill.

However I want to hear what NoHitter has to say about the Night kill
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
I should have apologized. I made a mistake on you and I apologize, rust45.


rust45 wrote:

I think it's a better idea to look at who would kill Ph0x, and why. Looking at his last suspicious list, NoHitter and I are on there. If I was mafia, I wouldn't even kill him, as when I'm mafia, I go for those who did participate as much as others, that way I get get someone who was slowing down the game, and possibly an aux role who was trying to go noticed. Ph0x did not meet my conditions for a night 1 kill.
Don't we participate to "find out the mafia"? It would be better for the mafia if no one talks and gets no lynch (or try to bandwagon someone)
Since the cop is dead, mafia wouldn't worry if townies get their extra time (no deaths from no lynch) ...
From townies side (us), we need people who will participate since without a cop, only thing we have is someone with an eye and a wit (Ph0X was one with these aspects...). Ph0X's death is a huge gain for mafia and they took the risk of being blocked by the doctor.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o

bmin11 wrote:

Ph0X's death is a huge gain for mafia and they took the risk of being blocked by the doctor.
Actually it's possible that they knew there wasn't a doctor. If there are only 2 goons (ie. no roleblocker) then they would have known that there's only one aux role in the game (who just died).

Also I should probably address this:

DeathxShinigami wrote:

0_o (I know you're willing to take on ph0x's role of looking at all the data and helping us get a general idea of the situation [...]
I'll be as active as I can, but I don't want to have the expectation of being a Ph0X replacement here. I'll pick out things as I see them, but don't expect me to do constant post-by-post analyses of the entire game. Not my style~
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

0_o wrote:

bmin11 wrote:

Ph0X's death is a huge gain for mafia and they took the risk of being blocked by the doctor.
Actually it's possible that they know there isn't a doctor. If there are only 2 goons (ie. no roleblocker) then they would know that there's only one aux role in the game (who just died).
/me Looks through the role list
• 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies.
• 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Vanilla Townies.
oh wow, you are right. If there are two goons, only one aux role is give to townies. Thanks
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Hmm...bmin, is it just me or are you posting a lot just to add in more info? or just really chatty now that ph0x is gone?

Also, +1 suspicion on animask and one less on 0_o

Sorry for assuming you'd act like ph0x but he really surprised us at day 1.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

DxS wrote:

Hmm...bmin, is it just me or are you posting a lot just to add in more info? or just really chatty now that ph0x is gone?
I'm merely posting anything that comes into my head right now. Theories, I guess and on day 1, I couldn't really add and infoes because a lot of times were spent around animask, DxS (you), Mashley, and Ph0X talking eachother.

Day 2 is a bit different. We now know we had a cop and we lost him (and also we lost a great townie). We now can think of how mafia is moving and some possible roles on this game. (even though I have no clue at the moment. Some would at least). Also, an important event occured as well, which I mean the lynch last day. I couldn't get much info for myself (couldn't review it deaply yet), but I believe it could come in handy.
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
bmin11, asking if roleblocker gets informed. Suspicious, but seems innocent.

DxS is still suspicious of me. He thinks I'm mafia after clearly stating that I'm not.
Why so suspicious? Is it because I'm right that you are mafia?

0_o the replacement. I get the feeling DxS could be working with you. (If I'm right I'll give myself 2 points for guessing right.)
[Currently at +1 points for guessing Mashley, sorta.]

Then again, I get the feeling bmin11 has the same suspicions or that he is mafia.
He's right to assume that I'm not mafia, but as a Doctor, no.

Q, who is still lurking, could possibly be mafia. Do something so I can find out! D:

NoHItter, since you aren't really accusing people, the suspicion on you is getting low. Being defensive.

Mashley got lynched, because I thought he was hiding something. I was right, but he wasn't mafia. (The odds were on my side I think.)

FoS NoHItter and DxS and Quy

EDIT: Removing FoS on rust45 (for now).
Last edited by Sleep Powder , edited 1 time in total.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
^you forgot rust and you're down 2 points
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
You awake to see Ph0X nailed to the wall, with paper from the ballots stuffed in his mouth. They all read "Ph0X".
Just realized. Dats sexy.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

animask wrote:

bmin11, asking if roleblocker gets informed. Suspicious, but seems innocent.
Because if they DO get informed and they got a positive from it, our doctor is no better then a townie. We can at least have a confirmed townie by asking the doctor to claim it's role if the doctor tried to protect Ph0X and failed (failed will give mafia a positive block result, thus they know who's the doctor).




animask wrote:

He's right to assume that I'm not mafia, but as a Doctor, no.
As I answered before, I was assuming you were the doctor since you said...

animask wrote:

Mafia Roleblocker. There has to be one.
and only the doctor (or the role blocker IF they gets informed) would be sure of this. You sounded pretty sure of it when you said "has to be one". If I'm taking your posts to directly and not seeing your hidden thoughts (ex: "I was only assuming even though I said HAS to"), please make it clear for me ._.;;

Did I make it clear for you?
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
animask, I'm still having a hard time understanding you so I'll question by answering your two questions first

It's not about you being mafia per se, it's about seeming suspicious. You beat around the bush when you're not directly quoting actions which makes me curious if it's a tactic or just a way of playing, it's annoying though and I know mashley said it was and look at him.

Can you at least tell me straight up if this is how you play? Cause it's really annoying me to animask.
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder

DeathxShinigami wrote:

Can you at least tell me straight up if this is how you play? Cause it's really annoying me to animask.
How else would I play? So yeah, this is how I play, I guess.
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami

animask wrote:

DeathxShinigami wrote:

Can you at least tell me straight up if this is how you play? Cause it's really annoying me to animask.
How else would I play? So yeah, this is how I play, I guess.
Cool or chill?

What the hell...well whatever don't you at least want to figure what's going on in this situation without making random stabs at people?
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
tl;dr

Thanks anyways animask, you're "style of playing" is all I have for reasons why you're mafia but if you randomly show some sort of suspicion or "hard to understand" evidence again you're only making it more confusing than it should be.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

animask wrote:

0_o the replacement. I get the feeling DxS could be working with you. (If I'm right I'll give myself 2 points for guessing right.)
Interesting. Why so? (as always, I want reasoning)
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder

bmin11 wrote:

animask wrote:

0_o the replacement. I get the feeling DxS could be working with you. (If I'm right I'll give myself 2 points for guessing right.)
Interesting. Why so? (as always, I want reasoning)
DxS could be the normal mafia goon and 0_o could be the roleblocker/mafia.

At first I suspected Quy, but if iMuffin was active, he would try to find out the cop/doctor.
Originally, I also suspected Quy, because of how he voted for me and wanted me to claim. (He wanted someone to counter-claim as Cop in order to protect Mashley who he thought was cop).

BUT, DxS seems to be focusing on accusations and sus(s). He isn't providing much to his accusations, because he is
trying to copy me in some ways. That might be why he wants to know my play style. He notices that I "beat around the bush when you're not directly quoting actions". The roleblocker/mafia could be the lurker in order to be safe from sus(s). Lots of other people fit this category. 0_o was just a guess, because of the lurking he may be doing. DxS probably thinks that I'm a threat in some way (to both mafia and townie) due to my reckless newbie playing, but he is using that to eliminate any suspicions on him. There should be a lower chance of there being an aux role, so he seems like a good pick.

At first, Ph0X accused you and DxS of being mafia buddies, but later on discovered that wasn't very likely. For now, lurkers and DxS seem to be a good match. Those are my thoughts of the FoS.


EDIT: Quaraezha = Quy

Did I add the part where I think DxS is trying to make people think there is a DxS and animask mafia pairing?
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
For the record, I am currently studying for an exam tomorrow morning. I've still been keeping track of the thread via email updates since I'm obsessive like that, but that's why you may be seeing me browsing without comment for the next few hours or so.
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
You ever thought about if I was actually town animask? It's nice reasoning you brought up about me buddying up but it just doesn't match up to like what ph0x was saying in Day 1.

About the whole "bluff attack on bmin" ph0x mentioned that there could be buddying but later stated @ that the attack which seemed more "friend based" rather than intentional cause it could be based on what "the friendship is like outside of the game"

I stated that I was testing bmin's friendship to make sure he wouldn't try to do anything suspicious but apparently you guys still don't believe it so fine. (Guess you want bmin to continue supporting the game while I feel like shit for bluffing?)

Have you ever thought about friends vs. roles animask?

And while you keep insisting to us I'm mafia. I'm only trying to bring in better evidence to why I'm not. (whether not this is part of your plan after all who knows)

I do like the activity though which is starting to seem less newbie and more thoughtful. But it's still silly to only think of one conclusion when there could be others.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

animask wrote:

At first I suspected Quy, but if iMuffin was active, he would try to find out the cop/doctor.
Huh? *confused*

animask wrote:

Originally, I also suspected Quy, because of how he voted for me and wanted me to claim. (He wanted someone to counter-claim as Cop in order to protect Mashley who he thought was cop).
He probably wanted to have a safe vote. By having no counter-claims, Mashley would be very likely to be a cop. If there WAS a cop and counter-claimed? Mashley would be confirmed mafia. Even if he wasn't, we could always just lynch the person to counter-claimed (no townie wants to take the risk of counter-claiming). The cop could have chosen to not claim even knowing that guy is a mafia and this is would be the best option at that moment (Mashley had the most vote and rust was sleeping). Sadly, that wasn't the case.

Q wasn't doing the wrong thing, he just wasn't sure if he should vote Mashley or not


animask wrote:

BUT, DxS seems to be focusing on accusations and sus(s). He isn't providing much to his accusations, because he is
trying to copy me in some ways. That might be why he wants to know my play style. He notices that I "beat around the bush when you're not directly quoting actions".
I'm not sure how mafia would want to copy someones playing style. Any thoughts on why?


and FoSing 0_o for his inactivity is a bit too cruel. He (obviously) could've done nothing on day 1 and we are in a quite early stage of day 2.
LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu

bmin11 wrote:

MOD: Does the Role Blocker gets informed if they role blocked successfully?
No.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

LadySuburu wrote:

bmin11 wrote:

MOD: Does the Role Blocker gets informed if they role blocked successfully?
No.
Thank you


animask wrote:

DxS probably thinks that I'm a threat in some way (to both mafia and townie) due to my reckless newbie playing, but he is using that to eliminate any suspicions on him.

DxS wrote:

animask (Pulled a fast one on me now but hey, newbies learn you get the least of my suspicions)
I don't think DxS is on to you, animask



EDIT: I think he's more on a annoyed stage due to your arguements. I'm gonna list your reasoning out for why you think DxS is a mafia

1. DxS is aggressive
2. DxS does not provide much evidence on suspicion
3. DxS is trying to copy animasks opinion + suspicion list + play style
4. DxS seems to be buddying with lurkers
5. DxS is accusing animask so himself will look clean


I disagree on 1 (for bad reasoning), 3 (not sure what he would get from it), 5 (he wasn't accusing you. Now he is because of your aggressiveness towards him)

I may be understanding this differently, but you guys seem to be talking pointlessly ._.;; I'm really confused with this thread right now (oh how I wish if Ph0X was here with his analyzed post)
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
First of all, I see that people are suspicious of me for voting Mashley, and because the NK was Ph0x who suspected me.

If there was indeed an unvoting mechanic I would have unvoted Mashley because of his cop claim. (Really LS, why are we guinea pigs on this D:) I was also suspicious of Mashley from since when he posted that comment of his. It wasn't like I suddenly suspected Mashley out of the blue and proceeded to vote him.

About the NK on Ph0x: It is WIFOM to say that someone is probably "scum" because the person who died suspected him.

Incidentally we are 5 town : 2 scum at the moment. If we mislynch town today, and the NK goes through, we will be at Ly-Lo tomorrow.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
I'm still criticizing you for voting the 4th vote on Mashley. We are playing on No Unvote and you know how much that vote weighed :<... Maybe you got too convinced by animask's reasoning (which I think it was based on guts really). If you truely want townies to win, you gotta think much deeper if you are about to vote (specially, if that vote is close to determinding the person's fate)
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
Yes, I got a bit angered over there... I'll try to hold myself better next time. Sorry...
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
Scenario Time w/o accusing anybody specifically

Mafia (1)
Roleblocker (1)

Townies (4)
Doctor (1)

The Doctor probably tried to protect Ph0X and failed, because of the Roleblocker.
This means the Mafia know who the Doctor is or very likely to be.
If the Doctor didn't protect Ph0X then they may be targeting the wrong person.
Which means they will try to go for a NK to avoid being sus(s).
They will try to avoid accusing the Doctor of being mafia.


Mafia (2)

Townies (5)

The Mafia thought that with Mashley gone they should get rid of the good player, Ph0X.
Then, they will try to avoid any sus(s) and contribute like a townie or continue to lurk.
If they are lurking now, they think they are succeeding and will win.
NoHiTter asked if voting for lurkers was alright or not.
Suprisingly, some semi-lurkers actually answered.
Those people could actually be mafia.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

animask wrote:

NoHiTter asked if voting for lurkers was alright or not.
Suprisingly, some semi-lurkers actually answered.
And because of that, I brought it up here as a list (man, do I love listing)

NoHItter: Lurking is a null tell. Mods should replace them. Unless they say that they would prefer to lurk on purpose, and give nothing helpful to town. Doing that is anti-town, and thus a FoS from me.

DxS: Probably not. Someone who is a bit more outspoken however usually winds up being voted upon by me though.

animask: Only if some crazy thing with chances and process of elimination comes up.

bmin11: Nope. I think they are lurking because of their position (cop/doc). It's likely to be a mafia, but I want to wait for the cop to find them first.

rust45: Only if they don't respond to questions asked.

Q: Maybe, but based from my experiences, the ones who lurk are, most of the time, Power Roles. Otherwise, they're Mafia or Townie.



I left out the dead and replaced people (Ph0X, Mashley, and iMuffin)



EDIT: My internet deadline is coming within 4 minutes (10:30 PM every nights except Saturday 11:00 PM). I'll only observe until I get disconnect
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
Could someone tell me what sus(s) means? animask keeps saying it and I have never heard the term before..

I do have things to say but I'll do it tomorrow when I don't have things I should really be doing right now >_>
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder

0_o wrote:

Could someone tell me what sus(s) means? animask keeps saying it and I have never heard the term before..

I do have things to say but I'll do it tomorrow when I don't have things I should really be doing right now >_>
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... reviations

...and now I'm off.
rust45
1,085 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45
Ugh, way too much going on, don't really know what to say...

NoHItter wrote:

About the NK on Ph0x: It is WIFOM to say that someone is probably "scum" because the person who died suspected him.
This is very true, but a lot of things in mafia are WIFOM. However without concrete evidence, I'm not going to vote on you just for the night kill.

Anyway, I actually have a question for everyone, it may sound a bit suspicious but I think it would help out a lot.

If you were mafia, who would you kill on Night 1 if there wasn't a confirmed power role?
I already answered, and it was about killing people who were less active so that lurkers can be killed to move the game faster and since auxs often are less active.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter

rust45 wrote:

If you were mafia, who would you kill on Night 1 if there wasn't a confirmed power role?
I already answered, and it was about killing people who were less active so that lurkers can be killed to move the game faster and since auxs often are less active.
This question will just add more WIFOM into the mix. Why did you bring it up? Define "help a lot"
rust45
1,085 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45
I figure finding out people's mindsets in regarding to killing wouldn't hurt. However you do make a good point in it adding WIFOM, but WIFOM can sometimes be vital to helping the game.
Quaraezha
1,491 posts
Joined February 2011
Quaraezha
Quick Post.
I wasn't lurking for the past 12 hours, I was asleep.
Quaraezha
1,491 posts
Joined February 2011
Quaraezha
Just throwing out my thoughts again

Okay so our best player Ph0x, was nightkilled
If there was ever a Doctor, he/she would most likely protect him
However, he wasn't protected, this could only mean that:
~There is a Doctor but was Roleblocked (Either by pure luck of knowing who doctor is, or has reasons)
~There is a Doctor but protected someone else
~There is no Doctor

---

Okay so about Mashley, I believe he was voted on because we were convinced by Ph0x and other stuff
And probably because no one had someone to vote to :P
(I'm not too sure about this)

Since Mashley roleclaimed as Cop, there were people who haven't voted yet who can save him (me included)
I just wanted to make sure he was legit and since we were running out of time.
I might as well do so by voting on animask.

There might also be another reason to why Ph0x was Nightkilled
Maybe because he was right on thinking who was suspicious
FoS: Mashley, NoHItter and rust
Not FoS: iMuffin (0_o), DxS, animask, bmin11, Quaraezha

Although, if that was the case, it might also give us the wrong thought and is for the sake of Reverse Psychology (or whatever you call it) where we vote for his FoS list when we're suppose to be lynching the one's who aren't.
Nevermind, that's silly, I still think he got lynched for being the best player :P

So anyway, FoS on rust45 and bmin11
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
Oh right, might as well answer that questionnaire from earlier:

1)What is your preferred/ favorite role and why? Either vanilla townie or mafia. Townie because you can go all out without worrying about being nightkilled, and mafia because lying is fun :)
2) Would you lynch lurkers? It depends on the situation. In big games where one can afford a few mislynches then I'm ok with cutting the fat so long as there's not much else to go on, but in smaller games like this it's a lot more risky.
3) In lynching people, do you use your gut mostly, or do you analyze the situation? I actually find that I sometimes have trouble distinguishing the line between the two. I analyze posts and form opinions on scum tells and town tells, but it's difficult for me to distinguish my personal bias from actual fact. Much life real life actually.
4) Do you believe in the usage of meta? (Basically using other games as a reference) Yes. Professional poker players use knowledge of their opponents while playing, and it's the same thing here.
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Lying is fun eh? Sounds rather aux'y to me...

So wait gonna do an analysis for now

While bmin is really chatty I just find him a player who wants to figure things out and wants to get through every day without much confusion as we faced in day 1. (Could be a good game leader as replacing ph0x as he really got more informative in the end of day 1)

All of my accusations made against me don't make sense. ph0x brought them out on day 1 and made me squirm but the more I had to tell the more he relied on my advice as well towards the end even though I voted for mashley due to split voting which I would've changed votes if I could.

bmin even stated logical reasons on why animask is heavily targetting me but again that's not much either. (Why so personal animask?)

Player Q really flipped himself on this one (Saying why he voted for for animask) Definitely looks better than randomly voting and I understand the timezone problems too which is what he explained

rust however just seems either busy in RL or really vague in mafia games unless that's how he rolls too...
Throwing out a question about power roles seem fishy anyways especially if he turns out to be mafia.

faceman is being a team player that's for sure but definitely different than ph0x bmin or I as contributors in this game. Some of his posts may seem odd but I can justify that it's his first real day in the game unlike us.

NoHItter still seems odd but not as much as before...while questioning other players he makes me think that there's something more behind the scenes than we know.

And finally

animask yet again continues to bring up the buddying situation which is really day 1 answered unless you really know something that I don't.

headed off to work soon, I'll catch up tonight if something comes down.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

Q wrote:

FoS on bmin11
The only reason you posted about me being suspicious was "bmin11 with his roleclaiming thing" on Day 1 and I think it's time for you to refresh your reasoning.

DxS wrote:

(Could be a good game leader as replacing ph0x as he really got more informative in the end of day 1)
You seem to be very concerned with the leader role. Do we actually need a leader in this game? From what I see from Ph0X, having a leader could be very dangerous, specailly if we have to be carefull with lynching now (we only have 5 townies left)





For rust45's question
I understand it's only a WIFOM, but I think it's worth a try (even risking the confusion). So, if I was a mafia, I would have went for Ph0X. As I mentioned earlier; "without a cop, only thing we have is someone with an eye and a wit" and Ph0X was definately the biggest threat to mafias even if Ph0X was FoSing them or not at the time being
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami

bmin11 wrote:

DxS wrote:

(Could be a good game leader as replacing ph0x as he really got more informative in the end of day 1)
You seem to be very concerned with the leader role. Do we actually need a leader in this game? From what I see from Ph0X, having a leader could be very dangerous, specailly if we have to be carefull with lynching now (we only have 5 townies left)

From what I see, you tend to want to always throw in your opinion through the entire real life day. We probably don't need a leader like role within the mafia game now but again I'm dissappointed we lost ph0x. But hopefully, as long as we stay on track throughout day 2 we can have more thoughtful ideas come from all of us instead of a select few.
rust45
1,085 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45

DeathxShinigami wrote:

rust however just seems either busy in RL or really vague in mafia games unless that's how he rolls too...
Kinda a mix of both, my bro's back from college and I've been hanging out with him, and due to me not being as good at anaslyis I can't keep detailed opinions like Ph0x.

bmin11 wrote:

For rust45's questionI understand it's only a WIFOM, but I think it's worth a try (even risking the confusion). So, if I was a mafia, I would have went for Ph0X. As I mentioned earlier; "without a cop, only thing we have is someone with an eye and a wit" and Ph0X was definately the biggest threat to mafias even if Ph0X was FoSing them or not at the time being
So would you consider yourself a player who tries to get the job done quickly? (I'm not accusing you of anything but you seem to be trying to do that right now if you're a townie, as you're doing a great job of trying to scum hunt.)

Anyway, I'm kinda curious as to why Q Fos'd bmin, I don't quite see what bmin has done lately (if at all) is suspcious in my book.
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
Anyway, I'm kinda curious as to why Q Fos'd bmin, I don't quite see what bmin has done lately (if at all) is suspcious in my book.
Quy and bmin are both mafia and Quy is accusing bmin, because of how much information hes putting in.
Quy is trying to accuse bmin, because he thinks hes NOT the possible doctor. (doing what I said the mafia would do)

Quy is trying to eliminate bmin, because of his role as the 2nd Ph0X. (Ph0X's successor)

bmin doesn't seem to suspicious, but I will keep the thing about him thinking I'm Doctor in mind.

BUT FoS rust45, Quy, NoHItter and a less sus(s) on DxS for now

EDIT: In case you didn't get the first thing I said, I'm not really sure if Quy and bmin could be mafia or not.
I just think there is a connection between the two.
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
So uh?

Where's your response to my questions animask?

bmin totally flip flopping if he's the 2nd ph0x is hilarious though.
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Also don't edit posts

this is why we can double post in here animask.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

animask wrote:

Quy and bmin are both mafia and Quy is accusing bmin, because of how much information hes putting in.
I don't get this part. You are saying, Q (the mafia) wants bmin11 (the other mafia) to be lynched because he's giving too much information to the townies??? This is the stupidest idea I've ever heard in this game. No mafia wants his partner to die unless they are having a betrayal issue (in that case, mafia would have told us who were the mafias already by now)

animask wrote:

bmin doesn't seem to suspicious, but I will keep the thing about him thinking I'm Doctor in mind.
Jesus Christ animask. Do you know the definition of "assumption"? I said: (image below)

and you can see that I ASSUMED you were the doctor BECAUSE you said "Roleblocker. There HAS to be one". Only a doctor would have been so sure about the roleblocker so I ASSUMED you were the doctor. Is there anyone who doesn't get this right now?


I'm ridiculed by animask's "bmin11 thinks I'm a doctor" thing right now and I just explained this the THIRD TIME. *Facepalm* are you doing this on purpose? You messed around with DxS (at least with some reasons based on gut feelings), and now you are meesing around with me by repeating the same question. I was extreamly confused by you vs DxS act, and now I'm extreamly ridiculed by you not reading my posts.

I would have voted you if only the situation wasn't this desperate (5 townies left). I still believe you are a townie and I agree with NoHitter that we can't risk to lose a townie (even the person is being annoying)
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Can we just vote animask now? he's totally trolling all of the western timezone players

Just wanna play talesweaver...
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
I feel like crying now ;_; I'm not here to write an essay about "why I thought animask was a doctor" ;________;
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
Hi I'm posting every few minutes

The bear repeats itself.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
For the record I thought animask was pseudo-claiming doctor with his initial comment as well.

Sorry for the lack of activity, I'll try and post more by the end of the day.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

0_o wrote:

For the record I thought animask was pseudo-claiming doctor with his initial comment as well.

Sorry for the lack of activity, I'll try and post more by the end of the day.
Thank you. Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
Fine, I'm the Doctor already. It's too hard for me to hide it anyways.

I'm having a hard time coming to logical conclusions atm so I'll just wait for some good posts.

Probably getting lynched tonight.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o

animask wrote:

Fine, I'm the Doctor already. It's too hard for me to hide it anyways.

I'm having a hard time coming to logical conclusions atm so I'll just wait for some good posts.

Probably getting lynched tonight.
Yeahhh we could have avoided a lot of drama if you had just said that in the first place. The mafia already knew you were the doctor because of the successful roleblock so there wasn't any point in hiding it.

If you're telling the truth that is.
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
Roleblocker or not. Mafia is still Mafia.

There was a chance that the Mafia had another suspect and if I appeared to be
a regular townie, my chances of being saved were higher. I immediately suspected
bmin, because I thought he was too sure that I was the Doctor.

Other Doctor Stuff

I asked for the Doctor/Cop in the beginning so (Mashley/Cop) would fake roleclaim as Doctor
or cop and I could protect that person without anybody knowing I was the Doctor. Which wasn't
a great move, because anyone could have claimed hoping for that.(?)
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11

0_o wrote:

Yeahhh we could have avoided a lot of drama if you had just said that in the first place. The mafia already knew you were the doctor because of the successful roleblock so there wasn't any point in hiding it.

If you're telling the truth that is.

LadySuburu wrote:

bmin11 wrote:

MOD: Does the Role Blocker gets informed if they role blocked successfully?
No.
Sorry animask, but you've totally got me wrong on this one. I was merely DEFENDING myself. You were thinking I could be the mafia because I was thinking you were a doctor. And I told you not to role claim if mafia doesn't get informed. Another *facepalm* for me. I wasn't trying to prove you were a doctor and you should have known that when I said not to role claim if mafia doesn't get informed. Why do you think I was asking LS if mafia would get informed? Because I wanted to make sure this doctor is safe or not. Well, you just ruined my plan and we are good to say, we lost our doctor.
Last edited by bmin11 , edited 1 time in total.
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
Which is why I was roleblocked successfully....

(I hate not editing.)
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
And again, please read my posts. I'm here to help you animask (well I can't do anything now since you role claimed =ㅅ=)
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
I'm sorry ;__;

At least now I'm known for reckless, risky moves.

But, what if I'm not Doctor~ My plan could be working.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
Well, if you are not the doctor, thing will get interesting (I can already see mafias being confused)
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
Day 2 is going to be my Last Resort.

Let's do this!

After the long commercial break...(srsly)
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
Alright so the last few pages have simply been a huge confusing mess so let's get some actual discussion going.

If you were to guess the mafia right now, who would it be?
My picks are NoHItter and DxS. NoHItter I've just been getting bad vibes from; DxS isn't particularly scummy (his posts are ALWAYS bizarre so it's difficult to get a read), but I've been getting stronger pro-town cues from everyone else so it's more of a process of elimination thing.
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