_Kobii wrote:

Lights wrote:

Hydria wrote:

For people using the argument that SM/Etterna doesn't have hitsounds: Yes, it does. It's optional. Try pressing F6/F7 or something when playing a map. Sure, most people don't use it, but I guarantee that there's at least a few people that need it to play.

Yeah- you also dont need to waste time hitsounding .sm charts, theyre just done automatically by the client. Pretty big difference

Lights wrote:

clayton wrote:

totally off-topic but is that automatic "hitsounding" any good? is it a feature that'd be wanted in osu?

it does exactly what you think it would do. it replaces the no-hitsound with a hitnormal that remains constant for every note in the chart. theoretically if you could set that sound to be any hitsound you wanted, it would be a workable solution.

Heres how they sounded for me on etterna:

https://youtu.be/sWzzztC628g

This is literally the same as replacing the hitnormal with another sample, and yet people have failed to see the point from Kamuy. Do some researches in the editor before bringing in redundant stuff.

Its not redundant? That stepmania chart also had nothing but hitnormals. Whereas currently you would need to add in additional hitsounding to an osu!mania chart? that is a very relevant extra step... Theres nothing wrong with consistent hitnormals on every note of a beatmap. at least from my perspective.

Lights wrote:

_Kobii wrote:

Lights wrote:

Hydria wrote:

For people using the argument that SM/Etterna doesn't have hitsounds: Yes, it does. It's optional. Try pressing F6/F7 or something when playing a map. Sure, most people don't use it, but I guarantee that there's at least a few people that need it to play.

Yeah- you also dont need to waste time hitsounding .sm charts, theyre just done automatically by the client. Pretty big difference

Lights wrote:

clayton wrote:

totally off-topic but is that automatic "hitsounding" any good? is it a feature that'd be wanted in osu?

it does exactly what you think it would do. it replaces the no-hitsound with a hitnormal that remains constant for every note in the chart. theoretically if you could set that sound to be any hitsound you wanted, it would be a workable solution.

Heres how they sounded for me on etterna:

https://youtu.be/sWzzztC628g

This is literally the same as replacing the hitnormal with another sample, and yet people have failed to see the point from Kamuy. Do some researches in the editor before bringing in redundant stuff.

Its not redundant? That stepmania chart also had nothing but hitnormals. Whereas currently you would need to add in additional hitsounding to an osu!mania chart? that is a very relevant extra step... Theres nothing wrong with consistent hitnormals on every note of a beatmap. at least from my perspective.

I'm saying that you can already do that in mania's editor for ages, it's not even an extra hitsounding effort. All you need to do is just to replace the current hitnormal to a better one because the default hitnormal for mania sounds like ass. And with a bit of volume control, you don't even more than 30 seconds to do all of that.

ok so it sounds like u two pretty much agree with each other, was just misunderstanding
let's try to get this thread moving forward

from what i can tell, these are the main options we have to pick between:

1. require additions (i.e. close this thread and do not change RC)
2. do not require additions for IX+ (this is the current proposed RC on GitHub/OP)
3. do not require additions for any map
4. do not require additions for IX+, unless if there are diffs H or lower, in which case you should copy the hitsounds from H up to IX+ and fix accordingly

did I miss any?
if we can make a complete list of options, we should take a poll and go from there

@Lights

there's a few wrong points in what youre trying to say

You need to know that by default, timing and green lines have volume at 100% which is why volume adjustments are necessary. Adding a custom hitnormal by the preference of the mapper is another step as the default sample from the editor sounds ass. This is for the IX+ only sets as proposed like what people are going for as the current compromise for the discussion.

why are we going back to hitadditions again?

Doubleedit: ok this was originally a response to lenpai but i didnt realise they were responding to someone else. so it means nothing. enjoy useless post

volume & changing the default sample is an implied step of making a map based on other rules already. it has nothing to do with the change currently proposed

read the current rule, and read the proposed change. the only difference is in where hit additions are required

edit: while they're not directly related to this rule, I could write in a little disclaimer to remind people that they're still necessary as usual.

I just realized the proposal still talks about turning off hitsound volume. Lemme fix that

edit: changed mentions of turning off hitsounds -> hit additions

@clayton sorry for the lack of quoting, that was targeted to Lights not you <3

lemme edit my post realy quick

aw man, now I'm contributing to this thread of misunderstandings too lol. edited my post as well

@ clayton

I think for the 3rd option, it would be better if "optional hitsounding" is also included, so it would be:
"do not require additions for any map, but it's also optional for mappers to do hitsounding if they feel like it" or something along that line

that's implied, isn't it? something that's not required is optional

Number #4 is the way to go

Thank you for sorting the raised options clayton

Number #4 is the way to go

Thank you for sorting the raised options clayton

Hope ppl voting clearly understand what it implies for both side of this debate

Gonna go ahead and cast a vote on 2

Considering insane diffs can have dense patterns, I think #2 is best way to go

What will prob happen with #4 is more preference toward IX+ mapping via longer maps to avoid hitsound additions. This might lead to greater decrease in ENH diffs than prob desired. Or it might lead to only ENH and only IX+ sets, with much less inclusion of lower and higher diffs in one set.

#2 would allow to exclude hitsound additions in insane, but would still require them in ENH. Point is hitsound additions in insane can be as big of an effort as in extreme+ at times and there is incentive to avoid that.

Someone mentioning SM/Etterna even though I tried to not mention it when giving my opinion. If we're talking about SM/Etterna as a comparison here for not having hitsounding, they does have keysounding. The feature is there but it's abandoned by many charters. The one feature with pressing F7 is attaching clap sound to the notes, not to the keypress. It's not hitsound.

Aside from that, I'm on the #4 side for giving both side a middle ground.

Let me make the following point concerning #4:

Suppose what that might do to spreads. I think it's going to act as deterrent against having insane and ENH diffs in same spread, and going to make fewer IE+ diffs be shorter than 4:15.

It's a fair point, but it's also the case with #2 as people would realize hitsounding is optional in IX+ diff and will try to avoid ENH altogether if they don't want to do one. Both of these point will have the same kind of effect to the availability of lower difficulties.

At least with #2 we can expect to see more insane diffs along with lower diffs than in #4. I got a mapset going for ranked that will be directly affected by the #2 vs #4 decision.

at #4 dense patterns can be compensated for with adjusting green / red line volumes. Loud hitsounds may be apparent with dense chordstreaming if volume adjustment wasn't done. Though at this rate, the hitadditions wont really be that audible.

I'm honestly fine if #2 got implemented for the record.

Number #2/4 is the way to go

Thank you for sorting the raised options clayton

ok the only difference between #2 and #4 is that #4 requires 3 extra clicks to open hs copier and copy hs from ENH over to IX, takes about 30 sec

nothing really changed with accessibility, affecting preference for having ENH or no ENH is the same on either decision, its just 1 extra step that takes 30 seconds

i think the single situation i could think of is if higher diffs tried to bring out completely different sounds so HS from ENH would 100% not work, which would cause a bigger case for the actual cohesiveness of the mapset rather than just the HS

@abraker i don't really see how your mapset would be hugely affected tbh...

i'll go with #4. its best to keep the overall mapset's consistency if there's a H on it

clayton wrote:

I think it's weird that an Insane difficulty would either require or not require hitsounding depending on the type of set it belongs to. other than that, this sounds good

Late reply is late sorry.

Uhh. The reason for this was mostly because, and i think we can all agree to this, most beatmap sets which get ranked are either E/N/H/I or N/H/I (Maybe even with more than one Insane difficulty)

It would simply be weird that E/N/H are hitsounded and the highest difficulty not, while it would take like.. a minute or two to do so with a hitsound copier.

That's why i said beatmap sets which have the lower difficulties should just hitsound normal, but these which do not have them, means these which start from Insane and go up to Expert and higher can just have the audible hitnormal.


And since everyone is "voting" on which of the 4 later proposed ways to go, i will do so too. Just to find something we can work with.

Right now the #4 one coveres mostly with what i proposed.

I would welcome #1 too, but then this whole discussion would be pointless and because most of people want a change, i don't want to be the one to stand in the way of it.

#2 would be weird because of the at the beginning stated reason. It legit takes only a few minutes to copy hitsounds and it would affect a beatmap sets quality as a whole when the lower difficulties are hitsounded and the higher are not.

#3 Nope. Definitely not. I stated in previous posts why i am against it so i don't think i need to repeat myself.

> CTRL + F latency
> no results
I see very few mentions of like, that osu! does not have a low latency audio system exactly, and when your charts are offset so that the audio output matches the key presses, there _will_ be a delay. This is the top #1 reason as to why hitsounds are completely pointless 0% effects gang - they're not only useless, they're -harmful- when you're trying to sync up by ear.

If there really is a discussion, I think this is a matter that needs to be fixed before even considering requiring hitsounds; not only that, they need to work out of the box with low latency. This is another of the things that make playing keysounded maps (not hitsounded) in osu! so annoying.

Let's say that's fixed too! I have a wireless keyboard. That adds 25ms latency as well. I measured it through trial and error. I have a UO of -50ms when I play with headphones. -70ms when I play with speakers. The hitsound delay is extremely obvious.

You may get used to playing early to match up the sounds I guess, but pretending that they are an aid to get the rhythm right without having to depend on say, hitposition, is plainly wrong.

I just want to ask, what is the purpose of this thread? I'm sorry if it's obvious, but from what I have gathered from reading people's posts, it's part of questioning why many charters choose not to rank their charts in osu!mania. If this is the case, I think we really should gather data first on why many charters choose not to rank their charts before proposing a viable solution.

I'm still standing for making hitsounds fully optional, (claytons 3rd proposal), because I feel like making hitsounds optional only for a few difficulties would neglect the root cause to why many choose not to rank their charts.

But as I said earlier, we should really gather data before proposing anything.

this isn't the solution to all of the charter motivation problems, it's just something that could help. many people are voicing their support for this even without that context

this probably won't be the last discussion related to the general problem

e: I'll write up an official thing for #4 since lots of ppl have good arguments for this one, if I don't do that in the next few days pls poke me

Depending on what demotivates charters (aka, if we actually had data), this might not help at all. I know for certain that it wouldn't help me personally. Because let's say that a big majority of all charters feel demotivated because of hitsounding itself, rather than the amount of hitsounding needed, then all proposals related to making top diff hitsounding optional would be irrelevant. And sure, many charters in this thread would support that kind of solution, but they still don't represent all charters to begin with.

So I still stand by that gathering data is a necessary step towards creating/suggesting a proposal.

Vortex- wrote:

this might not help at all

that's what "could" means! but also I doubt it won't help at all, considering there's a bunch of feedback in this thread as well as the post made by Jakads and other things linked in OP. some people already have polls running elsewhere regarding this change

does that stuff^ count as "data"? if not, let's find a way to get it, cuz it's important to hear from all parts of the community on a big change like this

my thinking was that we'd decide on a few options in this thread and then open/advertise a bigger poll to narrow it down, and also to make sure more people see it. I probably should have said this earlier.

concerning the 4 "options" i listed earlier:

1. #2 and #4 are almost the same thing, but people generally pick #4 because the extra restriction takes just a few minutes to handle and it's not a big deal.
2. #3 has some support, but is criticised for being too extreme and not really solving the main problem any more than #2/#4.
3. #1 is less popular, though that may be from the bias of this being listed on the RC forum.
4. nobody so far has suggested an option different from a listed one

clayton wrote:

Vortex- wrote:

this might not help at all

that's what "could" means! but also I doubt it won't help at all, considering there's a bunch of feedback in this thread as well as the post made by Jakads and other things linked in OP. some people already have polls running elsewhere regarding this change

Ah yes, sorry, I misunderstood then

clayton wrote:

does that stuff^ count as "data"? if not, let's find a way to get it, cuz it's important to hear from all parts of the community on a big change like this

I mean yes, it would, but I personally would like to see a more "official" initiative to gather this data.

clayton wrote:

my thinking was that we'd decide on a few options in this thread and then open/advertise a bigger poll to narrow it down, and also to make sure more people see it. I probably should have said this earlier.

Alright, so this is where I disagree. If people like Feerum says that alternative #3 is not an option, and we present people with the other 3 options in the poll, that would be unfair. Because if charters get demotivated by hitsounding as whole, rather than the strict rules of enforcing hitsounds on every chart and difficulty, than we've removed the best alternative for most charters. I might have misunderstood what you meant with "decide on a few options" and "open/advertise a bigger poll to narrow it down", please tell if I did.

clayton wrote:

#3 has some support, but is criticised for being too extreme and not really solving the main problem any more than #2/#4.

Again, the data could suggest that hitsounding in general is the main cause for charters feeling demotivated, so I still think it's important to gather data before suggesting alternatives.

I'm just trying to summarize what has been happening in this thread, so it's easy to follow and make progress. I shouldn't be the one to decide if an option is valid or not cuz I'm way less involved in the mania/vsrg community than most people in this thread

the only option from the 4 that seems possible to discard is #2 maybe, since it's so similar to #4. the rest all have valid arguments made by at least a few people

y'all can take it from here, I was just concerned earlier that this thread was going way off-topic or something. it looks fine now. just call me back when I should write something new on github

Alright, then I have a few suggestions for gathering data that could contribute to the discussion;

1. Send a pm to every known osu!mania charter asking them what demotivates them with the ranking process (optimally give them a set number of alternatives to pick from with already known complaints)
2. Make a public general poll that asks players if they play with hitsounds, skinned hitsounds or with muted hitsound audio

I think it's important to gather this kind of data, because these are big changes after all, and who knows, it might be the case that we don't really have a choice if we want to make the ranked section more active.

That's all of my input

Vortex- wrote:

Send a pm to every known osu!mania charter asking them what demotivates them with the ranking process (optimally give them a set number of alternatives to pick from with already known complaints)

Might be best way to go about this. The hitsound issue is one problem among many problems that definitely overshadow it, many of which are not readily fixable - poor star rating, lack of bn, lack of time, etc. So I'd expect to see many answers mentioning those things and relatively few concerning hitsounding because those other problems are what prob affecting motivation more significantly. If anything, this hitsound proposal is meant to provide insensitive to create harder difficulties on a sinking ship we do not have the means of fixing at the moment.

Vortex- wrote:

Make a public general poll that asks players if they play with hitsounds, skinned hitsounds or with muted hitsound audio

Majority of players are those that mostly play ENH and some insane, and have not entered top #10k, which I am almost positive majority of does play with hitsounds and depend on them too. This proposal has been mostly focused on removing hitsounds additions requirement for IX+ difficulties as a result.

I've always taken the rationale of "removing hitsounds requirements as a way to get established unranked mappers to go for ranked" with a fair share of doubt as:

- Spread creation may be seen as a waste of time and the added diffs are seen as filler more than anything.
- Complaints and preconceptions about the ranking system.

Just some thoughts on the thing.

Agka wrote:

> CTRL + F latency
> no results
I see very few mentions of like, that osu! does not have a low latency audio system exactly, and when your charts are offset so that the audio output matches the key presses, there _will_ be a delay. This is the top #1 reason as to why hitsounds are completely pointless 0% effects gang - they're not only useless, they're -harmful- when you're trying to sync up by ear.

If there really is a discussion, I think this is a matter that needs to be fixed before even considering requiring hitsounds; not only that, they need to work out of the box with low latency. This is another of the things that make playing keysounded maps (not hitsounded) in osu! so annoying.

Let's say that's fixed too! I have a wireless keyboard. That adds 25ms latency as well. I measured it through trial and error. I have a UO of -50ms when I play with headphones. -70ms when I play with speakers. The hitsound delay is extremely obvious.

You may get used to playing early to match up the sounds I guess, but pretending that they are an aid to get the rhythm right without having to depend on say, hitposition, is plainly wrong.

#5 Hitsound should be banned.

By same logic we should also ban SB and BG, because my shitty laptop has lag when playing video, and I only have 120G of space, having 1mb BG causes me to not be able to download extra maps. anything more than 3 keys should also be banned because my keyboard wont register more than 3 keys at same time.

On a serious note:
If you are gonna have a public poll, it shouldn't be limited to mapper, yes the problem we're trying to solve is for mapper, but the result also impacts every player. The poll must also be posted on an easily accessible place to avoid bias of certain community, so something like the front page of osu website, because lots of players do not go on the forum, also eliminate voters who never played a ranked osu mania map.

I just thinking, what function of this feature :



use 0% affect then the problem will clear.

Let we think, If there case that there have people that play must be use hitsound, because if they play without hitsound, sometimes they will get bad accuracy because they press too early or too late. so they need HS to keep his accuracy on good timing.
So how do you think about this kind of player? ok i maybe most player no need hitsound in his gameplay, but how do you think about them? Can you help them to get good accuracy for they gameplay?

I think change Ranking Criteria from must be hitsounded to mute hitsound or make volume of hitsound 0% isn't good idea because :
1. osu! already have features to mute HS in a way, make the affect volume become 0%.
2. we CANNOT help people who need hitsound in his gameplay to get good accuracy
3. This is osu! not another VSRG's game!. osu! have his own typical, own chararter, own rule. since this game realease, the rule that said "Beatmap MUST be Hitsounded" is already since begining, so, in my opinion this is what the founder or the maker game want. so, why we must change delete the basic rule of this game? I think player will be hype if there have a map with full keysound or Storyboard because it seems good.

so imo, muted hitsound isn't good idea for osu!mania player because we need to care to people who need hitsound in his gameplay.

But, it's another think if the case is because mapper is lazy to make hitsound for map.
OK, lets we think. I think here some problem
1. They CANNOT or DON NOT undestand about Hitsound.
2. They are just lazy to hitsound a map
3. They are just lazy to hitsound to all difficulty spread
4. They are just lazy to find hitsound samples for his map
5. They are just lazy to add more additional hitsound.

OK let's think how to fix it.

1. They CANNOT or DON NOT undestand about Hitsound.
If there have mapper that not understand about hitsound, i think generally they will learn and ask to experience mapper about how to make hitsound in the map. I think the experience mapper will help them with pleasure and teach them about how to make hitsound if the mapper ask to experience mapper with 'good way'.

2. They are just lazy to hitsound a map
If there have mapper just lazy to hitsound a map, i think nowdays in modding queue ONLY OSU!MANIA in queue thead where there have HITSOUND MODDING QUEUE. Even sometimes i help other mapper to do hitsound for his map. so if the MAIN problem why mapper lazy to rank his map is this, i think this queue can be solved of this problem.

3. They are just lazy to hitsound to all difficulty spread
If there have mapper that just lazy to hitsound to all difficulty spread, i think nowdays in osu!mania community is already have a hitsound copier fiture where the first fiture i know it created by [AyanoTatemaya]. It made in 2015. but there still have some bug. But nowdays we have had better Hitsound copier that made by dudehacker. And also he have made hitsound detective to check if there have unused Hitsound and inconsistenct hitsound. So i think hitsounding in nowdays is so easy that past, because nowdays osu!mania have some fiture to take off our time to hitsound all diff spread in way only create a single diff for hitsound then, copy it to other diff, then all diff will be hitsounded. It's so easy i think. it's very different in past where we must hitsound all difficulty in manually one by one. So i think this isn't the main problem why people dont intend to rank a map. and also nowdays in mania have no SPEEDRANK MAP. so, we still have so many time to do hitsounding.

4. They are just lazy to find hitsound samples for his map
If there have mapper that just lazy to find hitsound sample for his map, i think they can ask help to other mapper or experience mapper to give suggestion for hitsound sample. if they really dont know where location to find hitsound sample, i think they can check LordRaika samples collection on his userpage. He already made so many samples for osu!mania community, he have so many contribution for this i think since even some STD map use his sample for his map. BUT, If they really really really lazy to do both solution, i think we can back to 2 solution before, that USE HITSOUND MODDING QUEUE SERVICES then it will clear. BUT, If they still very lazy to find it, maybe the solusion is additional rule that, we can use basic/standar hitsound in osu! where there already have 3 kind hitsound (Normal, Soft, Drum) with 4 kind sub-hitsound (normal,whistle, clap, finish). so we no need waste time to find hitsound sample since osu! already give its.

5. They are just lazy to add more additional hitsound.
If there have mapper that just lazy to add more additional hitsound, i think this problem is on the mapper mindset? why? i think there no rule said that "The map must have other hitsound or additional hitsound of out hitwhistle, hitclap, hitfinish, hitnormal". even in RC said "All clicked objects must have audible active hit sounds or active hitnormal samples. osu!mania beatmaps are exempt from this because of the mode's rhythm construction." so, i think this mean not all note that hitsounded must use audible hitsound. we can use silent hitsound here for a map but dont use 0kb file for this hitsound. Oh man, this RC is solved your suggestion about mute HS because annoying. Just back now to the mapper, they can exploit it or not.
RC already constructed very good i think. Just i dont know, nowdays seems people mindsetted that "WE MUST MAKE MAP WITH VERY GOOD HITSOUND WITH SOME ADDITIONAL HITSOUND SAMPLES example is we must make a keysound's map". I dont know since when this mindset happen. but i a bit think if there have something wrong in the community about this stuff. And back in the solution, maybe just ask to HITSOUND MODDING QUEUE SERVICES to solved this.

so, from 5 case that i said. NO ONE case is the MAIN problem, why people dont intend or hard to rank a map. So i think delete hitsound from rule is not good idea because it will give affect about experience gameplay for some player who need hitsound to his gameplay. maybe we no need hitsound, but try to think other people who play with hitsound. this is osu!. Different another VSRG's game. dont compare osu! with another game, if you always compare it then all is change, this game is seems like plagiat. and the founder of game already make rule about "BEATMAP MUST BE AUDBLE" is since this game release. if we ignore or delete this rule, in my opinion this seems like we want out for osu! principle

My suggestion is only in point 4 that, we can use original/basic hitsound to rank the map. about mute is can solved use decrease affect volume to 0%. ppy already give solve for this stuff. so no need to change rule so we can mute the hitsound.
And one thing, maybe add the tools and sample link in better thread so new mapper can know and open it without open userpage the maker or scroll down to find the thread? maybe just do pin it or something like that?

I think will be better to disscuss this problem than disscuss to removing a RC in mania.

Agka wrote:

>

If there really is a discussion, I think this is a matter that needs to be fixed before even considering requiring hitsounds; not only that, they need to work out of the box with low latency. This is another of the things that make playing keysounded maps (not hitsounded) in osu! so annoying.

Let's say that's fixed too! I have a wireless keyboard. That adds 25ms latency as well. I measured it through trial and error. I have a UO of -50ms when I play with headphones. -70ms when I play with speakers. The hitsound delay is extremely obvious.

You may get used to playing early to match up the sounds I guess, but pretending that they are an aid to get the rhythm right without having to depend on say, hitposition, is plainly wrong.

Goodluck!

Edit : typo write

Aaaaaaaaand changed title of the thread (was previously saying it's a proposal to allow muted hitsounds)

So i am going to talk about this hitsound problem from the pov of a new mania mapper (i started mapping "seriously" in september 2019). I am going to start with a little story, of how did i even get to this point.(this is gonna be quite lenghty so prepare).
At first, it was just a funny thing to do, because i started with a meme song (this is the link of it: https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1040000#mania/2174150). I didnt really think much of it, i just wanted to make a funny stupid thing. Buut there was this guy who somehow found my map, thought it was cool and asked me if he can make a guest difficulty. I was very happy, knowing that someone completely random thought that my map was cool, that i got motivated to make more maps. As i became more and more interested about mapping stuff, i looked over the Ranking Criteria, just because, who knows, maybe something is gonna get out of what im doing xd. And there i saw the thing about the hitsounds being a requirement... i was very dumbfounded bc i really thought hitsounds were an optional thing, just to stylize your beatmap a bit more (even the editor has a tip that says "to spice things up, use whistle, finish and clap" or something like that, so i didnt think it was obligatory, just "to spice things up"). But oh well, people have told me that the ranking criteria is mostly just an orientative thing and you dont need to respect all the rules of it to get your maps ranked (not that i could get any of my beatmaps ranked in any way at my level xd).
But then, people liked my maps so much that they gave me hypes! I was really excited about that, especially because the hypes i got were mostly from pretty experienced oaumania players (over #25k) AND i didnt ask them for hype on the map, they were genuinely acknowledging my mapping "skills". So, "lets try my luck then" i said. Me being new to all this ranking stuff, i sent a message on the old thing to every beatmap nominator that there was listed on the wiki.(That wiki should be updated more frequently btw, cuz i sent the message to 2 ppl who werent even bns anymore xd, really shows how many people are really active in this comunity). My message wasnt well made and pretty lenghty, so i even got 1 ban from Asherz007 from sending him another beatmaps till february 2020. That really saddened me, although it was my mistake at that time (even tho i didnt know anything at that point xd). But there was this other bn, named Keiga, at the time -Ziel-, who sent me the equivalent of a 3 page document regarding everything i, as a new mapper, should know about ranking and bns and whatever else. (Thanks a bunch Keiga again for all of that, i really cant describe how happy i was knowing that somebody would actually care to take kind of a good part of his time explaining all those "unknown rules" for a rookie). He also explained to me that hitsounds were actually obligatory, and mentioned some ways of dealing with it. One of it being dudehacker and famoss' hitsound modding thread. Since i didnt know anything about hitsounds and wanting a proper model of how should i do hitsounding, i sent my map to that thread, maybe someone could at least explain me some proper ways of hitsounding. It isnt that i didnt want to learn, i really wanted to, but i also wanted to have an example to start or something. But after a few weeks of trying, famoss rejected to hs my map bc "i dont know how to map". I was really demoralized bc of that little phrase, not because he thought that i dont know how to map, but because i didnt get the example i wanted so that i could understand a bit more about hitsounding and the likes of it. If i were a bit weaker emotionally, i couldve dropped mapping as a whole right then. But luckily i didnt, and now i have a beatmap with hitsounds made by myself, even if it took like 12h just to hitsound it xd ( link here: https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1071093#mania/2242009 any advice would be welcomed, since i still wanna learn stuff about mapping, im not giving up that easily). I even have supporter now, thanks to a friend of mine, so i can have more pending beatmaps, i really hated that i couldve sent just 4 beatmaps xd.
So, what was the point of all of that? Well, a part of that was just to tell somebody all of this hehe.
But, this also shows the feelings that a new beatmapper COULD get through his mapping journey. All you guys have been talking so objectively about such a subjective issue, of course there wouldnt be any compromise made yet. And i dont think it will ever get to a compromise, because again, hittsounding your map/ playing with hitsounds is such a subjective thing, there wouldnt be any way to make anyone happy, sadly. I personally am AGAINST enforced hitsounding for osu!mania maps, idk about other mods, i only play mania and ctb so ye. But i do understand why new people would use hitsounds so that they could increase their potential performance. So, i also understand why this rule would be to the benefit of the players. WOULD be. Because it isnt to all of them, as example all people that play with 0% effects, just as me. (I actually never played with effects over 0%, bc hitsounds were kind of distracting me, especially after i started playing maps over 3*, where imo you can get unsynced from the song itself pretty easily if you press 2-3 notes at wrong times bc of the hitsounds, them being heard where they arent intended to actually be heard). And also, why should we even talk about the beginners here, according to at least the title of this thread, all of this is to allow HIGHER DIFFICULTIES to omit hs additions, something that, for sure, beginners wont play xd.
The big problem is also with the new mappers, because they need to learn this semi-useless thing that they may not even think of at the beginning (although there may be some mappers who would learn it pretty easily i think, if they actually played with hitsounds too, so again, pretty subjective).
So, all in all, i just wanted to share the thoughts of a random new mapper, idk if this helped much but i hope it did. I really wasnt at all organised with all this though, i am much better at answering questions that talking freely xd.
Okay bye!

I'm gonna format/edit those behemoths so it's not a pain on the eyes to read

As for the people who's on the option #3, from what abraker and lenpai stated:

abraker wrote:

...a large majority that have potential of ranking hard difficulties not caring so much they dont want to bother ranking at all.

lenpai wrote:

I've always taken the rationale of "removing hitsounds requirements as a way to get established unranked mappers to go for ranked" with a fair share of doubt as:

- Spread creation may be seen as a waste of time and the added diffs are seen as filler more than anything.

I assume that the 'unranked mappers' are usually mapping insane and above difficulties, which is included in option #4. If that's not the case and they still have lower diffculties, i think it still should be hitsounded for now. As the people above that voiced hitsound is still required, beginner or new players need some feedback sound from the notes for they can adapt and hit it accurately.

Well there's spread rules that make them needs to add lower diffs, but i think that's another issue. They still have another option to map it on longer length that meets the criteria so they don't have to add additional hitsound at all. Yeah that's not really solving the issue but there's a reason that hitsound modding queue exist. This is just my two cents though.

I have to disagree, hitsounding has a very clear effect on the quality of a map and completely omitting all hitsound additions is just lazy.
All I see in this proposed addition is “I don’t want to be forced to improve my map. I’m lazy. If people want to improve their beatmap they will do it because they want to, not because they were forced to”

Whether or not most experienced/top players have it disabled shouldn't matter. Most top players also probably have 100% background dim on. That doesn't mean not having a background should be allowed. They are voluntarily choosing not to experience mapsets to their fullest potential and thats their loss. That doesnt mean mappers should be able to slack though.

I also disagree that removing that hitsound requirement will allow a large amount of unranked mappers to push their content towards the ranked section. The people who are too lazy to add hitsounds are the same people who are too lazy to make a full spread for a TV Sized map, are too lazy to get mods, or are too lazy to find proper metadata. Their content likely wouldn't be rankable anyways.

Too many times has the ranking criteria caved in too laziness, this is another such ridiculous proposition.

hitsounding has a very clear effect on the quality of a map

the vsrg community overall would probably disagree with you here. seems to be the main cause of disagreement

the example of background images seems like a false equivalence, with the key difference being that bgs require very little effort to find---thus the issue is entirely different and you may be right to pull the "lazy" card as a counterargument to mappers wanting to allow nobg maps

I'm not a mania person but based on what I have seen from the mania editor and hitsounding in mania first hand, I feel like a lot of things would already get easier and be considered less of a chore if the editor actually offered a proper UI for managing hitsounds. The Std/CtB approach to hitsounding obviously does not work as well due to having multiple notes at the same time which makes both volume and set management at the very least interesting and the Sample Editor is a damn black box that offers no transparency at all.
Considering this lack of suitable tools I can understand why people don't want to hitsound in mania, especially higher difficulties.

While this doesn't immediately contribute to the discussion I wonder if the supporters of this proposal would actually consider hitsounding basic additions more tolerable if a proper editor for hitsounding mania (and hitsounding in general to be honest) was available.

Is this a tool problem or not?
Cause if it is, we/you should bring this issue to lazer as soon as possible.

Endaris wrote:

Is this a tool problem or not?
Cause if it is, we/you should bring this issue to lazer as soon as possible.

Most important thing I think it's missing is the hitsound copying functionality, which allows to copy hitsounds from a dedicated "master" difficulty over to the rest of the set. You can think of that "master" difficulty as notes from each difficulty merged into one, allowing to overlay hitsounds over to another difficulty. Currently majority of mappers rely on an external tool to do that, while the rest do it manually.

Regardless, being required to go over each of the 2,000 or so notes in that "master" difficulty to do something you can't care less about is kinda demotivating. Looking at a couple posts just before this one, people keep calling it laziness. You can continue to keep calling it laziness, but realize that mania is undergoing a crisis, having lack of harder difficulties being ranked, and tediousness of hitsounding is one common complaint that keeps popping up. At this point we need to think about ways to attract mappers, and I believe this is a really good way to do so. Also, as said before, we can always revert later if this doesn't pan out.

“ Also, as said before, we can always revert later if this doesn't pan out.”

I find it very unlikely that a proposal like this would ever get reverted once its passed. Its removing work for people, why would they want to revert it and do more work?

What I do think is likely is that the majority of newly ranked mania maps after this passes wont have hitsounding anymore. Somewhere in the 95% range of maps. If people arent forced to do the extra work, they wont.

Before recently, hybrid mapsets with osu diffs weren't required to have normal diffs in other gamemodes, despite them being essential for newer players. Roughly 7% of hybrid osu maps ranked at the time included Normals in the other gamemodes. Even if its important to the quality of the beatmap, mappers most likely wont do the extra work unless you force them.

If you believe mappers wont do extra work by mapping hitsounds, then it implies that majority of mappers think hitsounds are not important enough to be mapped. That's, according to you, a major % of mappers that should be for this proposal removing hitsound additions.

tatatat wrote:

Before recently, hybrid mapsets with osu diffs weren't required to have normal diffs in other gamemodes, despite them being essential for newer players.

Normals are essential for newer players, yet the argument in this thread is that hitsound additions on Insane+ diffs are not essential for anybody. in your example, forcing mappers to make Normal diffs has clear benefits, while in this case forcing mappers to hitsound higher diffs does not (according to the responses we're seeing so far)

the conversation's mostly going in circles now, are there any large polls open about this yet? if not, does anyone have an idea of where to make/advertise one?

e: it doesn't look like there's been much response to the points in https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/posts/7304804, actually

and @Endaris I think there definitely is a problem with the tools, but this is well-known and can (will?) be addressed whenever work on the o!m editor starts for lazer. RC's gonna need a whole lot of rechecking when the new editors are commonly used so I don't think we'll forget to check up on this in the future

Yea there is a poll here https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/998551

awesome, thanks

survey results are out https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/posts/7316237

Greetings!

I was asked to bring this slowly to an decision.

So despite the survey of MEGAtive, which sadly didn't had that much of participants, i still would go with the idea i posted here already as a fair compromise and as a test phase to see if this would actually affect the Ranked Section or not.

So here is it again:

Beatmapsets starting from Insane difficulty can have only an audible hitnormal hit sound.
If the beatmapset has any difficulty lower than Insane, it must have hit sound additions.

This is to ensure that single difficulties in a Mapset do not get skipped with hitsounding. If the set has an Easy, Normal and or Hard difficulty, which are hitsounded, it would be ridiculous to skip the next ones because this could get fixed by just copy them.
And yes, this addition in the wording is needed to prevent exactly such cases. (I know the community long enough that it would get abused at some point :p)

So yeah, this is the case i am full in to go and try it out. If this would still prevent people from ranking beatmaps we could see, after a certain test phase, if we don't want to lower it to Hard difficulties. But first i would like to try it with insane.

updated https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2925

lmk if this is ok to add

Big change incoming.

So yeah, I give it a green light.