Alright so, there seem to be 2 main counterpoints for the proposal
1) Limiting sets in themselves doesn't prevent the maps from getting ranked through different means
2) This doesn't come close to fixing or approaching the root causes, like the pp system, mapping for playcount, circlejerk, etc ..
1) For a while I felt like the pros would outweigh the cons, but now I more or less feel like both the current situation and the one that would result just bring different issues to the table (partly due to 2). In essence it's just a game of pros and cons
- 1 big content drop vs multiple smaller ones
- 1 normal/hard/insane vs multiple similar, generic ones
- downloading a song once vs seeing it appear multiple times
etc.
In that sense, yeah, the approach should be adjusted.
2) While I understand this, it's also the mentality I'm trying to counteract with the proposal. With fixes to the performance system currently happening, it's not unreasonable to also try fencing in the problem from the other side. It's just a matter of finding the best band-aids we can find, in a sense.
Other stuff
- Tyistiana : yeah, that's a case I didn't consider, combined with above it's clear that the current proposal isn't valid
- Taeyang : I do get this sense of accomplishment, and I'm fine with PP maps existing. But, in the case of JUSTadICE the mapset originally gave 8 times the same sense of accomplishment, as the maps are about as difficult and provide the same rewards. Players being spoonfed 'accomplishment' quickly turns into something meaningless, bloated. That's mainly why I think limiting it per set is a good thing.
There's also a lot of players that just dislike this constant mapping for attention. You might not get their messages, but there's plenty of them. So I'd like to look for a better balance.
If the fundamental issues you mentioned were 'quick fixes' then they'd have already happened, or aren't happening for some reason (eg. https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues/2730 this thing that never happened)
- Maridius : imo I'd prefer an allowing guideline over a super strict one. Binding things to spread gets kinda pesky. Generally I'd rather tell mappers to "c'mon don't do this shit" rather than "you must work within this small space of options"
Anyways, I'm kinda brainstorm mode right now. People seem to agree with the premise of the proposal, but the execution has issues. So time to try a different angle on it.
Things that come to mind are
I'll add more ideas when I think of them. Thanks for all the feedback so far, though open for suggestions and even more feedback!
1) Limiting sets in themselves doesn't prevent the maps from getting ranked through different means
2) This doesn't come close to fixing or approaching the root causes, like the pp system, mapping for playcount, circlejerk, etc ..
1) For a while I felt like the pros would outweigh the cons, but now I more or less feel like both the current situation and the one that would result just bring different issues to the table (partly due to 2). In essence it's just a game of pros and cons
- 1 big content drop vs multiple smaller ones
- 1 normal/hard/insane vs multiple similar, generic ones
- downloading a song once vs seeing it appear multiple times
etc.
In that sense, yeah, the approach should be adjusted.
2) While I understand this, it's also the mentality I'm trying to counteract with the proposal. With fixes to the performance system currently happening, it's not unreasonable to also try fencing in the problem from the other side. It's just a matter of finding the best band-aids we can find, in a sense.
Other stuff
- Tyistiana : yeah, that's a case I didn't consider, combined with above it's clear that the current proposal isn't valid
- Taeyang : I do get this sense of accomplishment, and I'm fine with PP maps existing. But, in the case of JUSTadICE the mapset originally gave 8 times the same sense of accomplishment, as the maps are about as difficult and provide the same rewards. Players being spoonfed 'accomplishment' quickly turns into something meaningless, bloated. That's mainly why I think limiting it per set is a good thing.
There's also a lot of players that just dislike this constant mapping for attention. You might not get their messages, but there's plenty of them. So I'd like to look for a better balance.
If the fundamental issues you mentioned were 'quick fixes' then they'd have already happened, or aren't happening for some reason (eg. https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues/2730 this thing that never happened)
- Maridius : imo I'd prefer an allowing guideline over a super strict one. Binding things to spread gets kinda pesky. Generally I'd rather tell mappers to "c'mon don't do this shit" rather than "you must work within this small space of options"
Anyways, I'm kinda brainstorm mode right now. People seem to agree with the premise of the proposal, but the execution has issues. So time to try a different angle on it.
Things that come to mind are
- Avoid oversimplifying Extra difficulties. Players at this level require a suitable challenge.
[counteracts more blatant design choices done for pp mapping, also disconnected from the set transferring issue] - Avoid having many similar sections across difficulties in the same set. This is to ensure that every difficulty gives a different experience.
[Loosens up the proposed guideline by not overfocusing smaller similarities. Gives room for mappers who have different approaches to the same thing, like Taeyang refers to. Also encourages actually acting on it, making sections different seems easier than ranking another set. Still conflicts with Tystiana I think, but maybe just not fit for other gamemodes .. ?]
I'll add more ideas when I think of them. Thanks for all the feedback so far, though open for suggestions and even more feedback!