The blue word is the middleground i try to offer here.
Kamikaze wrote:
The thing is, I was not vouching for adding more SVs. I'm of the opinion that this map doesn't need ANY SVs and it would be better off not having those sparse random changes for the sake of map looking cooler. It's what I refer as making SVs for the sake of having SVs in the map. The SV feels forced, each one of those three SVs feels forced just to have it. Maybe apart from the third one but more to that later.
Deleting All SVs would be too much to ask tbh, Feel forced felt too exaggerated for me when for example, the first slowdown doesn't even that impactful in terms of gameplay but still have enough effect to be noticeable. i'm in opinion that we should find a middle ground of this, but i will explain that later at other main point.
Kamikaze wrote:
We have differing opinions then because the instrument is indeed fading but then more of the intensity is fading as it's slowing down to then make a bigger return for the chorus. That being said the slowjam only really serves as sort of an annoyance because the layering is not really taken into account, the scroll speed slows down but you have trickier LNs to handle which is impractical while also it's not big enough to force a diffrent reading technique so it's pretty awkward.
I will try break into 2 parts here:
1. Musicality. I think we already have agreement that the instrument is fading and the SV still makes sense in music accordance, but from what i catch, the part at 00:48:884 - need slowdown too? I don't really agree with this one because i still stand that this part having more build up towards the kiai part. since 00:41:612 - and 00:48:884 - are two different sections (emphasized by that thick white line) it won't do to combine both of the SV, having them as different signify different parts and short bridge of normal gameplay before head up to main part of the song.
2. Playability. The SV doesn't give too much of an effect to the point where it disrupt the gameplay. I testplay it and really felt it is fine, and looking at other player's replay from rank section, they don't do bad too, so i really don't think slowjam being disrupting here.
Kamikaze wrote:
It's funny that you mention Batting Show because this is a perfect example of a map that's built SPECIFICALLY FOR SVS. This map is not. This map only has a jump that's too powerful for what the song provides just to have some effect. The concept of this map and it's patterning are not built specifically for SVs. Batting Show is.
The slowdown happening before argument is also not logical because it might make a player think "huh there are SVs here?" but also if you expect players to guess that they will have an uneven 3,1x->0,3x jump after a 0,92x slowjam then you are wrong.
I also don't get the point about it being an excitement factor, the excitement factors are kiai, harder patterning, but not a single SV that starts off this "hype" section. Also funny how you mention that when you later mention that you dislike heavy SV maps.
As for 4. of course that it's a hyperboly, it's a 3,8* acc map mostly 1/1 rhythms, remembering two seconds is nothing for top rank players, same for me, it took me 4 tries to SS the map, even though it didn't beat my 1x200 score due to not focusing that much on ratio. If you expect that on a map like that leaderboards will show clearly stuff like that then it's not. I've asked a couple of fairly good people to play the map and give me their opinions and while they have differing opinions about the patterning and third SV, I've only heard "wtf" "why is this so strong lmao it doesn't fit here" and so on comments about this particular SV. Also if it wasn't for this SV the whole mod of mine would just consist of saying that the third SV is inconsistent while asking for a fix
First off, I never mentioned anything about Batting show, that's why i specifically only mentioned through the screenshot instead. I simply wanna say that i looked at you as guy that really like unique thing to the point you supporting even if unsighreadable SV exists, people really needs it in ranking cause we need new things, from that point, i wanna emphasize i'm confused that now you want SV that can be nailed on first try, it doesn't really makes sense for me. Feel free to clarify if you want, but i will try to put this aside for now.
The excitement point that i mentioned, what i mean is that the SVs aren't random here, why? because it's placed on exactly where kiai first appear, if just for example, suddenly the bump appear at 00:31:915 - , then i will agree with you, but that's not the case here.
Finally, I will try to give middle ground towards this SV, how about if the mapper doing standard 1,5x and 0,5x SV here? it is a really standard and generic SV that we found literally anywhere within the rank map, so this shouldn't be too strong anymore at this point.Kamikaze wrote:
Okay, I can agree with that point, but there is next to no lead in to that as in there is no other SV like that in the entire map even if it was way less intense so you can't possibly expect that without hearing about what the map has beforehand. And also that doesn't solve the issue of he's accenting four vocal syllabes and forgets about the first one.
For me, having the 1,5x and 0,5x SV that what i suggest earlier is already giving a cue for the player that there will be more SV there, besides. the pattern is literally only 1/1 triple with SV here, i don't really see any element of surprise and generally will be surprise if they can't hit that simple pattern.
About the sum of vocal syllables, it's actually at correct number here.
but i do admit the note at 00:59:490 (59490|3) - actually supposed to be LN, yeah this note need to be changed to LN, i admit i missed this one.Kamikaze wrote:
Yeah but also if he does make notes for the drum and drum notes sometimes paired with vocals give even quads is it really that much to ask for to just add some (even light)
drum sample? Especially with the first point that I've mentioned - the soft hitnormal sounds REALLY jarring on this map, it's hard to concentrate on accuracy for me as someone who uses hitsounds for timing because the hat sample is clashing really hard with the song. I get that Niks does the piano keysounds for the vocals, it's a novel idea, but the fact that it's novel doesn't mean that it should always be done by all means necessary because hey I want my map to have that swag most people won't even notice.
Well, let me explain why at first i think it won't fit. because i did ever icon
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/499643 this map, and now i think about it, how the piano blend with normal HS along with snare/drum doesn't fit with the softness of piano, and i will be really dissapointed if the end piano keysound being forced to got deleted cause it's a really nice experience for this map.
However, if you can give the mapper "light drum" hitsound that actually pair well with the keysound without disrupt each other, then i will have no rebuttal, that's the furthest i willing to give.Kamikaze wrote:
If you're going for code of conduct as an argument so will I:
"When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively / objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level. All types of suggestion are fine as long as they are put forward accordingly."
"Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in its current design - not force your own style upon it. If you truly believe the map has too many significant issues to address individually, try to give a general statement of why this is the case and what direction you think the map should go in to get back on track."
I believe that the concept behind the SV usage is fundamentally flawed from the start as the song does not provide the instrumental feedback for SVs that are presented in the map and said SVs are flawed in their construction:
- first SV does not make much sense if you just cut the slowjam when the intensity of the song drops from the section that the slowjam was presented on
- second SV has literally no introduction or follow up, it's a once per map SV and it's way too intense while also not properly distanced
- third SV is not consistent with itself as the SV jumps accent the lyrical syllabes but they do it for 4 syllabes out of 5 before the denser part which is a flawed execution of said concept
When did I use CoC as argument i wonder? i simply stated that's how i usually doing when i try to mod other people map, i even emphasize that with "personally for me, i do this that way" instead of direct this to other people, it's no more and no less. But let's have this aside for now.
I unfortunately need to disagree if it comes down to "all SV is fundamentally wrong and doesn't fit in the map" argument, you even agree that the music does have certain instrument or cue to support the SV, for example the slowdown part where its fading. And as i said in earlier part, i believe we can reach middle ground with this one, because:
1. As I already explained it before (well, my earlier explanation have more concrete words), both have different sections that's quite obvious and quite emphasized itself , I don't believe combine slowjam would do here.
2. Second SV being placed at the exact same time as when reff appear isn't random by any means. I already give middle ground to make the SV less surprising, I hope it can be agreedable.
3. The third SV vocal syllables already correct, it just needs one of note to be changed to LN, if it will be DQ, it is a really minor change.
Kamikaze wrote:
Also regarding the second point here, everyone has their own opinion and more people dislike SV heavy maps even if they have solid justification for each of the gimmicks presented and the gimmicks are polished to the point of representing the song's nature perfectly just because they either can't play them or just dislike gimmicks, same goes for LN charts. This is not the problem here. The SVs aren't hard, they're not representing the nature of the song, this song doesn't really have a climax, it just has a slightly more intense chorus, as with a lot of anime songs and this also shows with the fact that Niks put the SVs in only three places and the first one is 41 seconds into the map.
For me lot of SV maps does good job if they interpret the unpredictable nature of the song, but at the same time they uses a lot of strong SV that i personally can't really do the justice with the impact of the song itself. And when its really hard, the leaderboard proves it by having minimal player FC it and almost none can't nail certain part properly.
The SV in this map represent the song properly as the reason i gave before, and the fact is that first SV is slowdown part instead of immediately bouncing, just this one already give proof that it doesn't give immediate surprise here.
Kamikaze wrote:
The other thing is that there's is no introduction, there is no cue for the fact that there will be any SVs in the map, this map is literally what you would expect from a TV size chart except it just throws random stuff at you in the second half. Which is not okay.
there is though, it gives soft warning through slowjam which poses no threat at all, and it isn't random by any means when it does good job on how it does interprate the song.
Kamikaze wrote:
Also if there are any concerns, any problems, anything to change (the third SV objectively needs to have one more jump to be consistent with itself if it's not gonna be deleted) there should be a DQ happening. And I feel like y'all are just treating disqualifications as some sort of stigma like it was in the older days. It's really not a big deal to take the map down to make some changes that the community wants (not specifying myself here), you are not mapping for yourself but for the community when going for ranked.
I might be wrong about that and if I am, treat it as a PSA for other mappers.
I think i already said i don't care if the map get DQ, what i disagree is if you ask the mapper to remove the entirety of the SV or keysound instead of find the middle ground here. I won't really say this is what community wants tbh, as there are splits opinion regarding this one and players result generally dictate its fine, it's too vague to be told. anyway i still gave my middleground.
I agree that we map for community, but for what reason if you don't map for yourself too? afterall, i believe mapper can have piece of their interpretation left in the map they spent hours to do so.
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With that being said, I believe the middle ground i try offer to you is already reasonable enough here (I emphasize with blue color here) , I did explain all in terms of musicality and playability those SVs still makes sense and not random in placement. For me the most possible to be change is within the second SVs, which i personally will change to the most standard 1,5x and 0,5x SV, I did testplay and it doesn't felt too strong either and have more room to read between the intersection. and about the HS i did ask your help if you could find sample that fits the keysound here, i will really appreciate if you do find and give to the mapper!
