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osu!, touchscreens and you
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I am really happy to see how well you are addressing the situation!
Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.
But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.
But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
hi-mei wrote:
I think its a long awaited time for a meticulous review of how PP score is calculated.
There is a very tangible difference between 4 min 7* HDHR map fc and 20 seconds HDHRDT haitai FC.
This thing HAS to be addressed at some point, I truly hope that the solution will be finded and we gonna shift from TV-size farming meta to something a bit different.
I am not a math-guru, but I can say that the formula of PP calculation is struggling when it comes to sliders.
Maps with lots of sliders gives less score, doesnt matter if the actual difficulty is higher than the common TV-size anime maps.
So the main thing that comes to my mind is that PP system doesnt care how you hit sliders, how much input sliders are having on the player during the gameplay, how it affects reading and such.
But for temporary solution I can suggest to nerf how much PP is coming from short maps, it is just not ok that 20 second map gives 900 pp. Its just wrong.
I diagree.
While it's true how stamina should be an important factor in skill, it would be biased to say short-hard maps are less difficult. Look at it by the eye of someone that can't pass it, why because he doesn't have the stamina and patience to or because he lacks the skill.
Simply making short maps gain less just serves a certain type of player and doesn't fix the issue.
Why does everyone hate on catch the beat players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to dash and give thought. if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand. Plus with catch the beat you can't spin worth crap.Swivelx wrote:
Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.
But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different game modes?
Because that's effectively what touchscreen is, a different game mode. It just doesn't fit.
It isn't hating on a playstyle and/or the people using it to claim that it is unbalanced. We shouldn't just leave it that way to protect touchscreen players' feelings or something. While they can't really stream and have limited map choices, they have enough maps to get a significant amount of pp, and in that way among others it's vastly different from using tablet/mouse, meaning it isn't fair to put the two on the same system. I think it takes plenty of practice to get good with it, as with anything, but that doesn't mean it's balanced or that it is equal to tablet/mouse. To sum it up, stating that the playstyle is unbalanced isn't an attack on any players.Swivelx wrote:
Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.
But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
it doesnt matter that ts cant stream when it doesnt give that much pp anywaySwivelx wrote:
Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.
But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
you see both tablet and mouse require actually moving a object to control the cursor moving to the circle, while also tapping on the keyboard at the same time
touchscreen? fuck that, just fingers tapping on a screen
It does take skill. Referencing freedomdivers 900pp, Doing something like that is still hard, but it's way too easy relative to other playstyles like Tablet and Mouse.Swivelx wrote:
Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.
But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
We all strive to get better, to climb ranks, but if there's a certain playstyle that most of us think is "broken", Then we have a problem don't we? People will think they're gaining way more pp than a regular tablet/mouse player, Which would result to flaming, calling Touchscreen an "Easy playstyle". They can't play certain maps unlike the other playstyles, but the main problem is pp itself.
hey guys im thinking, i was gonna open a burrito store but then i found out touchscreen is cheats. so can someone from the touchscreen osu players quit osu and come help with my burrito store .
with love from a TOP osu toucchscreen player.. . .
thanks
with love from a TOP osu toucchscreen player.. . .
thanks
meanwhile this happens in mania and nobody cares
"Who cares if touchscreen is broken"
Uhm, a lot of players. This is a competitive game, not a truck driving simulator.
"This map is hard, he deserved it."
Then I also deserved the bicycle racing trophy because I participated using a motor bike.
"But they can only play limited number of maps!"
And those maps are jump-dominant maps, which takes like 85% of the whole map pool.
"It's the mappers fault for mapping jump maps!"
It's Riot's fault that you became a degenerate who run down mid whenever he couldn't get his favorite champ.
"Why do you even care that he got 900pp? He is legit, just accept that that is the new pp record!"
boi
Uhm, a lot of players. This is a competitive game, not a truck driving simulator.
"This map is hard, he deserved it."
Then I also deserved the bicycle racing trophy because I participated using a motor bike.
"But they can only play limited number of maps!"
And those maps are jump-dominant maps, which takes like 85% of the whole map pool.
"It's the mappers fault for mapping jump maps!"
It's Riot's fault that you became a degenerate who run down mid whenever he couldn't get his favorite champ.
"Why do you even care that he got 900pp? He is legit, just accept that that is the new pp record!"
boi
You're tilting about a circle clicking game, give relevant and useful arguments to make the game evolve instead of pretending that touchscreen is retarded -
It's relevant, though. And maybe useful too, as it may make people realize that touchscreen is not okay right now.
^ This is Gold.Eraser wrote:
"Who cares if touchscreen is broken"
Uhm, a lot of players. This is a competitive game, not a truck driving simulator.
"This map is hard, he deserved it."
Then I also deserved the bicycle racing trophy because I participated using a motor bike.
"But they can only play limited number of maps!"
And those maps are jump-dominant maps, which takes like 85% of the whole map pool.
"It's the mappers fault for mapping jump maps!"
It's Riot's fault that you became a degenerate who run down mid whenever he couldn't get his favorite champ.
"Why do you even care that he got 900pp? He is legit, just accept that that is the new pp record!"
boi
that's perfectEraser wrote:
"Who cares if touchscreen is broken"
Uhm, a lot of players. This is a competitive game, not a truck driving simulator.
"This map is hard, he deserved it."
Then I also deserved the bicycle racing trophy because I participated using a motor bike.
"But they can only play limited number of maps!"
And those maps are jump-dominant maps, which takes like 85% of the whole map pool.
"It's the mappers fault for mapping jump maps!"
It's Riot's fault that you became a degenerate who run down mid whenever he couldn't get his favorite champ.
"Why do you even care that he got 900pp? He is legit, just accept that that is the new pp record!"
boi
Since when was this post an argument?itsamemarioo wrote:
that's not an argumentNepNep- wrote:
^ This is Gold.
Say that to the multiple people that said "Good work peppy!.
Ugh., People these days.
Yes, the people who simply "good job Peppy" aren't really helping to solve the problem, but neither was Eraser's post at all. One person's shitpost does not in any way make another man's shitpost magically less shitty. Eraser's post was indeed completely irrelevant because it completely ignored the problems and issues that allow a 900pp Haitai touchscreen play to exist (many of which Peppy pointed out himself) and instead simply spouts nonsense meant entirely to fuel the "touchscreen is cheatscreen" circle-jerk.
get a life and stop being mad over a circle clicking game lmao
It can also be interpreted as calming the people in this post arguing about whether the 900pp play was deserved. I worded that terribly, but you should get my point. People are still stating their opinions in this post with the 900pp, so I'd say it's relevant, but completely useless to the forum post itself.Harmony11 wrote:
Yes, the people who simply "good job Peppy" aren't really helping to solve the problem, but neither was Eraser's post at all. One person's shitpost does not in any way make another man's shitpost magically less shitty. Eraser's post was indeed completely irrelevant because it completely ignored the problems and issues that allow a 900pp Haitai touchscreen play to exist (many of which Peppy pointed out himself) and instead simply spouts nonsense meant entirely to fuel the "touchscreen is cheatscreen" circle-jerk.
This guy should quit, point 4 is compared so stupidly bad that I cringe. Maybe add something good to discussion.Eraser wrote:
"Who cares if touchscreen is broken"
Uhm, a lot of players. This is a competitive game, not a truck driving simulator.
"This map is hard, he deserved it."
Then I also deserved the bicycle racing trophy because I participated using a motor bike.
"But they can only play limited number of maps!"
And those maps are jump-dominant maps, which takes like 85% of the whole map pool.
"It's the mappers fault for mapping jump maps!"
It's Riot's fault that you became a degenerate who run down mid whenever he couldn't get his favorite champ.
"Why do you even care that he got 900pp? He is legit, just accept that that is the new pp record!"
boi
That would be a good idealolarisan wrote:
Maybe there could be an option on your profile where u select touchscreen and it will automatically be sent to another leaderboard?
Alright, alright, here is a solution I had in mind. I only skimmed through the pages, so it might has been mentioned before.
Ban touchscreen from standard completely and make it a new game mode.
There's so much difference of playstyle between touchscreen and mouse/tablet, it doesn't even look comparable anymore. Touchscreen greatly reduces the aim aspect from standard, which is one the biggest things that differentiate osu! from other traditional rhythm games. Of course, they can still play standard maps, but as an auto-convert.
Touchscreen would be better off having its own game mode. People can be more creative with touchscreen here, with gimmicks like double taps, double sliders, or cross-screen-back-and-forth "stream", which are (practically) impossible in standard.
And there is osu arcade, why not take some elements from there too?
Ban touchscreen from standard completely and make it a new game mode.
There's so much difference of playstyle between touchscreen and mouse/tablet, it doesn't even look comparable anymore. Touchscreen greatly reduces the aim aspect from standard, which is one the biggest things that differentiate osu! from other traditional rhythm games. Of course, they can still play standard maps, but as an auto-convert.
Touchscreen would be better off having its own game mode. People can be more creative with touchscreen here, with gimmicks like double taps, double sliders, or cross-screen-back-and-forth "stream", which are (practically) impossible in standard.
And there is osu arcade, why not take some elements from there too?
Peppy has already stated that separating the pp system between the two is not a good idea, and your suggestion is pretty much the same. It's in the main post.Eraser wrote:
Alright, alright, here is a solution I had in mind. I only skimmed through the pages, so it might has been mentioned before.
Ban touchscreen from standard completely and make it a new game mode.
There's so much difference of playstyle between touchscreen and mouse/tablet, it doesn't even look comparable anymore. Touchscreen greatly reduces the aim aspect from standard, which is one the biggest things that differentiate osu! from other traditional rhythm games. Of course, they can still play standard maps, but as an auto-convert.
Touchscreen would be better off having its own game mode. People can be more creative with touchscreen here, with gimmicks like double taps, double sliders, or cross-screen-back-and-forth "stream", which are (practically) impossible in standard.
And there is osu arcade, why not take some elements from there too?
It is possible, but doing so would be extremely costly. Already counting the sparsity of touchscreen players, It wont be as fun for them.
It's not about separating the pp system, it's about separating the whole peripheral. Make it a new unique game instead of a way of playing standard.
It's still the same thing isn't it? Separating into two unique gamemodes is still splitting the leaderboards, Just like what peppy said.Eraser wrote:
It's not about separating the pp system, it's about separating the whole peripheral. Make it a new unique game instead of a way of playing standard.
peppy already stated the problems of doing this.
Well, it's not our job to decide if it's possible or not, so we'll see.
Why nobody is complaining when ExGon got his 400pp with Touchscreen?
Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one? Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps? Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?
So many questions, yet too complcated to answer
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one? Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps? Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?
So many questions, yet too complcated to answer
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
ExGon got a 1099pp play w/ touchscreen pre-tag4 nerf, however people did outcry over it which is why tag4 was nerfed etc.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why nobody is complaining when ExGon got his 400pp with Touchscreen?
Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one? Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps? Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?
So many questions, yet too complcated to answer
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
Edit: Corrected by Mismagius
no he didnt, the play was post-nerf. the play that caused tag4 to give no pp was kuvster's 578pp play
twirl_old_1
This has probably already been suggested, but why not make a sort of "Multi-Platform osu!droid" ? I always thought that abandoning osu!droid was a shame, and with a version of it supporting Android, iOS and Windows, it could give touchscreen players their own leaderboards and expand osu! as a game. The mechanic where you would tap on a stream with one finger, and use another to actually be able to accurately hit streams would make it much more of a rythm game experience as well. I'm assuming there's a good reason for osu!droid being canceled, but this would give it an awesome purpose in my opinion.
We did.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why nobody is complaining when ExGon got his 400pp with Touchscreen?
There was.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one?
The score isn't popular.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
No one has tried to discussed "pp inflation".Grim Rapper wrote:
Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
People have to retry more to FC the map than to just enjoy a map.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps?
Because people are incapable of understanding that the issue is aim, accuracy is just a technical limitation.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
Because pp was made like 4 years ago and the idea of doing streams above 250bpm consistently wasn't really considered.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
You do.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?
This game is also an aim game and you're not getting it.Grim Rapper wrote:
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
We are aware that pp is flawed and that touchscreen isn't comparable to other input methods.Grim Rapper wrote:
We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
This isn't the original game.twirl wrote:
touchscreen is possibly the play style that is most faithful to the original game; right after tablet! no part of me thinks that touchscreen should be nerfed as they have their own flaws (not being able to stream)!
Osu isn't just a rhythm game, it's a competetive game, and that's something you're not getting. If there's a playstyle that unbalances the ranking system of the game, A system that allows players to set absurd scores according to most of us, then that calls for a reform.Grim Rapper wrote:
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
My question is: What will removing PP do relative to the ranking system? I do recall a time where we didn't have pp, and at that time I was fairly new... but I distinctly recall gaining 30k ranks from one play where I 70% FC'd an "Insane" (5* at the time, when it was the max amount of stars) AR7 map. Isn't that sort of broken? I jumped from rank 87k to 54k in that one play. pp solved this artificial skill-increase problem... so are we hoping for that to come back? Is that why everyone wants to take away pp? But if pp is changed, then what will we do? Score V2 is a largely failing system that shouldn't be implemented and from what I can tell has been dumpstered. So now where are we headed?
Still didn't answer anything imo, but it was better than ignorancejesse1412 wrote:
We did.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why nobody is complaining when ExGon got his 400pp with Touchscreen?
It's been 2 years. Unless if I missed some discussion somewhere, I'd never see anything else beside 1 youtube commentThere was.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one?
When I said as "this one", is as chaotic as the Developer (a.k.a peppy) himself needed to resolve itThe score isn't popular.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
I'm talking about difficulty, not about the fame of the map? What's this mentality of "We'll fix this after the others are yelling it to us"?No one has tried to discussed "pp inflation".Grim Rapper wrote:
Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
People have to retry more to FC the map than to just enjoy a map.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps?
Which is will become more famous, and more player will adore the map and the mapper, the mapper create the same thing that the player wants, and the cycle continues. Great Idea for a commuity to uphold quality, right?Because people are incapable of understanding that the issue is aim, accuracy is just a technical limitation.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
SapphireGhost and Bonk (despite their inactivity) shows that touchscreen CAN have accuracy, it's the preference that makes it a technical limitation, do you still want to ban them based of their playstyle?Because pp was made like 4 years ago and the idea of doing streams above 250bpm consistently wasn't really considered.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
Is that suppose to be the the argument against me?You do.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?
Why you're targeting me when I'm targeting about the controversial play? I'm talking about why when the controversial play received so many pp with that glaring accuracy, when comparing to YOUR insane streams play on Native Faith get less pp? or any straining streams play at all?This game is also an aim game and you're not getting it.Grim Rapper wrote:
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
Then why streams are exist in the first place? You can change it into sliderkicks (or whatever do you want to called them) and it still be ranked if the QAT was following your logic. The reason of Hollow Wings even makes a continuous squares in a 1/8 map is EXACTLY trying to counter your argument (imo, idk if HW is intending to do that)We are aware that pp is flawed and that touchscreen isn't comparable to other input methods.Grim Rapper wrote:
We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
but let's blame the touchscreen player instead, we know the pp system is FLAWED, but people enjoying it right? and A LOT OF mapper enjoy ABUSING it by making EVERYTHING pp-based so why not, RIGHT?
Cheers, No hard feelings
I lost count of how many times you put words in jesse's mouth there, grim Rapper.
I think there were a few misunderstandings between us but everything I've wanted to say about this topic has been said so I'm going to leave the discussion for now.Grim Rapper wrote:
Still didn't answer anything imo, but it was better than ignorance
Cheers, No hard feelings
Since jesse just left, I'll be the one trying to reply.
Jesse is correct and accuracy does punish pp, obviously. But you're right and accuracy does no punish you enough when you get it too low.
This post was done really terribly since I was on an iPad, apologize for any typos and such if you see any.
You just asked for "Why no one is complaining" and you're talking about DifficultyGrim Rapper wrote:
I'm talking about difficulty, not about the fame of the map? What's this mentality of "We'll fix this after the others are yelling it to us"?
No need to mention the accuracy touchscreen players, The people here are annoyed at the 76% 900pp after all. We were never mad at them to begin with apart from people hating touchscreen in general.Grim Rapper wrote:
SapphireGhost and Bonk (despite their inactivity) shows that touchscreen CAN have accuracy, it's the preference that makes it a technical limitation, do you still want to ban them based of their playstyle?
Assuming his "You do" is not a directed to you, but implying "You do" in a general perspective.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why you're targeting me when I'm targeting about the controversial play? I'm talking about why when the controversial play received so many pp with that glaring accuracy, when comparing to YOUR insane streams play on Native Faith get less pp? or any straining streams play at all?
Jesse is correct and accuracy does punish pp, obviously. But you're right and accuracy does no punish you enough when you get it too low.
Streams exist as a element to synergize better with the music, Most of the map is still aim related. Even streams can be difficult to aim. Stating "but there are streams" and "We can use sidekicks" is not valid.Grim Rapper wrote:
Then why streams are exist in the first place? You can change it into sliderkicks (or whatever do you want to called them) and it still be ranked if the QAT was following your logic. The reason of Hollow Wings even makes a continuous squares in a 1/8 map is EXACTLY trying to counter your argument (imo, idk if HW is intending to do that)
The people completely blind are flaming the touchscreen players, When it's the pp system being flawed, and touchscreen being vastly different. I can understand people being mad since a playstyle being very different claiming the top play. It isn't about pp, The very fact he was able to fc it 3 times in one hour, is also a reason. It's not just about the pp sytsem being flawed, It's touchscreen being largely different from other playstyles, and that difference is what enrages other players.Grim Rapper wrote:
but let's blame the touchscreen player instead, we know the pp system is FLAWED, but people enjoying it right? and A LOT OF mapper enjoy ABUSING it by making EVERYTHING pp-based so why not, RIGHT?
That's very cocky of you. I believe you didn't completely answer all his statements.Grim Rapper wrote:
Still didn't answer anything imo, but it was better than ignorance
Cheers, No hard feelings
This post was done really terribly since I was on an iPad, apologize for any typos and such if you see any.