It's nothing about you personally. If you check, I've actually responded to every single post in the this thread that argues in favor of touchscreen. The reason I pick at everything people say is because anecdotal evidence isn't relevant to discussion. There have been many "meme" phases of pp. We went through the idea that dt is overweighted, accuracy is overweighted, accuracy is underweighted, speed is underweighted, short maps are overweighted, and long maps are overweighted over the last few years. Currently, because freedomdiver happens to have set his score on a short map, people are wanking over short maps being overweighted even though that's irrelevant as longer maps won't solve the issue of touchscreen.hi-mei wrote:
yea after your responses I assume you dont really like me personally so you literally checking each thing I say.
What I meant thereIs that 80% of players in top 50 has their pp earned mostly on short jumpy maps.hi-mei wrote:
80% of top 50 are DT tv-size maps abusers.
But yea, please dont reply on that, after all the shit you threw on me I honestly have 0 will to discuss with you anymore.
Go ahead and live in your delusional world where Performance Points arent broken and mapping meta is in a normal state.
I knew exactly what your post meant however 80% of players in the top 50 do not gain the majority of their pp from short jumpy maps. You've even shown that below.
Why would I not reply when there are things to discuss? I disagree with you, therefore I shall post why.
Performance points aren't broken. Higher ranked players are most of the time better than lower ranked players. That chance of that being subjectively correct increases as the difference between ranks increase. Recognizing which players are better is the sole objective of a ranking system, pp achieves that to quite an effective degree, therefore pp is not broken. I'm not arguing that pp is perfect, I agree that is underweights some times (high speed streams or technical maps), but it's not broken.
Mapping meta is in a "normal state". The ratio of short to long maps is quite close to the same as in years past.
Now this is the kind of stuff I want to see in a debate. I appreciate that you took the time to do this. I apologize for incorrectly labeling emilia and osu player84. My mistake.hi-mei wrote:
But before I send you to blocklist, let me summarize the top scores on top 50 players (currently).
i'll include here only top 50 scores of top 50 players on TV size maps that has 2 and less min drain time (without DT), but was played with DT. Scores with drain time over 2:25s (My dearest) arent included here (like remote control, best friends full ver. etc).Here we go:1. Cookiezi
Kanae Asaba - Endless Starlight ~Inochi no Kirameki~ (OP ver.) [Challenger] +HD,DT (100.00%)
Chitose Sara - Merry Merry Go Round [Extra] +HD,DT (99.22%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Ultimate] +HD,DT (96.50%)
TrySail - High Free Spirits -TV.Ver- [Skystar's Extra] +HD,DT (93.87%)
Hagumi Nishizawa - My Hero! Up to you! [My Hero!] +HD,DT (97.67%)
S3RL feat Mixie Moon - FriendZoned [Slayed's Extreme] +HD,DT (99.75%)
Kano - Stella-rium [Pleiades] +HD,DT (97.61%)
Horie Yui - Asymmetry [Flourite's Kiss] +HD,DT (99.62%)
8/50 = 16% (or 0.16 multiplier)
2. Rafis
RADWIMPS - Yume Tourou [Extra: Taki] +HD,HR,DT (98.43%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Happy~!] +HD,DT (99.50%)
ClariS - Hitorigoto -TV MIX- [Soliloquy] +HD,HR,DT (99.41%)
*Namirin - Yasashisa no Riyuu [Happiness] +HD,DT (99.68%)
Fujijo Seitokai Shikkou-bu - Best FriendS [Insane] +HD,HR,DT (99.06%)
ayase rie - yuima-ru*world [Extra] +HD,DT (99.40%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Extra] +HD,HR,DT (99.25%)
Nanamori-chu*Gorakubu - Acchu~ma Seishun! [Fycho's Seishun] +HD,DT (98.93%)
Agnete Kjolsrud - Get Jinxed [Master] +HD,DT (99.56%
Duca - Jewel Days [Illumination] +HD,DT (99.73%)
fhana - Kimi to Iu Tokuiten [singular you] [Melancholy] +HD,DT (99.56%)
RADWIMPS - Zen Zen Zense (movie ver.) [Extra: Taki] +HD,DT (99.86%)
Little Glee Monster - Dakara, Hitori ja Nai -TV Size- [Sotarks' Plus Ultra] +HD,DT (98.82%)
Kano - Stella-rium [Pleiades] +HD,DT (98.98%)
TRUE - Soundscape [Settia's Extra] +HD,DT (98.77%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [Revenge] +HD,DT (99.43%)
Tapimiru - Hakkensha wa Watashi (Anime Size) [Kencho's Grimoire] +HD,DT (99.66%)
Ni-Sokkususu - Blade Dance [Kneesocks] +HD,DT (97.44%)
Tamura Yukari - MERRY MERRY MERRY MENU... Ne! [Little's Extra] +HD,DT (98.83%)
RADWIMPS - Yume Tourou [Extra: Mitsuha] +HD,HR,DT (97.99%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [StarR-kun's Revenge] +HD,DT (99.27%)
RADWIMPS - Zen Zen Zense (movie ver.) [Extra: Mitsuha] +HD,DT (99.57%)
TrySail & TRUE - High Free Spirits vs. DREAM SOLISTER [Pentarks' Extra] +HD,DT (99.39%)
Suzuki Konomi - Redo [Extra] +HD,DT (99.24%)
Machico - fantastic dreamer [Blessing] +HD,DT (99.50%)
Fujijo Seitokai Shikkou-bu - Best FriendS -TV Size- [Fycho's Insane] +HD,HR,DT (99.15%)
CINDERELLA PROJECT - M@GIC* [M@gic] +HD,DT (98.52%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Dan Dan] +HD,DT (99.08%)
29/50 = 58% (or 0.58)
3. Vaxei
TrySail - High Free Spirits -TV.Ver- [Skystar's Extra] +HD,DT (98.82%)
HO-KAGO TEA TIME - Kira Kira Days [Shiawase!!] +HD,DT (98.03%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Happy~!] +HD,DT (99.12%)
Aqours - Aozora Jumping Heart [hvick225's Extra] +HD,DT (98.73%)
Kanon Wakeshima - Tsukinami [Fragile] +HD,DT (98.71%)
Hiromi Sato - Jiyuu no Hane [A Feather] +HD,DT (99.68%
TRUE - Soundscape [StarR's Euphonious] +HD,DT (97.85%)
Nanamori-chu*Gorakubu - Acchu~ma Seishun! [Fycho's Seishun] +HD,DT (98.35%)
Agnete Kjolsrud - Get Jinxed [Master] +HD,DT (99.04%)
TrySail - High Free Spirits -TV.Ver- [StarR's Extra] +HD,DT (97.74%)
Tia - The Glory Days [Glory] +HD,DT (99.02%)
*namirin - Koi no Hime Hime Pettanko [Taeyang's Ultra Princess] +HD,DT (98.93%)
Fujijo Seitokai Shikkou-bu - Best FriendS [Insane] +HD,HR,DT (97.80%)
ClariS - Hitorigoto -TV MIX- [Soliloquy] +HD,HR,DT (97.65%)
supercell - My Dearest (TV Edit) [Guilt] +HD,HR,DT (96.23%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Extra] +HD,HR,DT (97.00%)
Ni-Sokkususu - Blade Dance [Kneesocks] +HD,DT (97.36%)
Izumi Akazawa (CV. Madoka Yonezawa) - Responsibility Response [Slayed's Answer] +HD,DT (98.08%)
Tamura Yukari - MERRY MERRY MERRY MENU... Ne! [Little's Extra] +HD,DT (97.57%)
RADWIMPS - Yume Tourou [Extra: Taki] +HD,HR,DT (97.64%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Dan Dan] +HD,DT (99.34%)
Kanae Asaba - Endless Starlight ~Inochi no Kirameki~ (OP ver.) [Challenger] +HD,DT (97.52%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Ultimate] +HD,DT (97.17%)
TRUE - Soundscape [Settia's Extra] +HD,DT (97.49%)
Reol - MONSTER [DARKNESS] +HD,DT (98.52%)
Drop - Granat [Expert] +HD,HR,DT (94.54%)
TRUE - Soundscape [Slayed's Extra] +HD,DT (99.36%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [StarR-kun's Revenge] +HD,DT (99.27%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [Revenge] +HD,DT (98.28%)
FLOWxGRANRODEO - 7 -seven- -TV SIZE - [Expert] +HD,HR,DT (94.42%)
Royal Blood - Loose Change [$] +HD,DT (98.46%)
Azusa Tadokoro - Junshin Always [Extra] +HD,DT (96.60%)
Azusa Tadokoro - Junshin Always [Colorful] +HD,DT (97.26%)
3 Nen E Gumi Utatan (Nagisa & Kayano & Karuma & Isogai & Maehara) - Bye Bye YESTERDAY [Taeyang's Good Good Time] +HD,DT (99.55%)
Kano - Stella-rium [Pleiades] +HD,DT (98.55%)
35/50 = 70% (0.7)
Doesn't rely on short maps.(c) jesse
Im lazy to copy past and gonna just post the result multiplier from now on:
4. filsdelama
28/50 = 56% (0.56)
5. firebat92
32/50 = 64% (0.64)
6. osu player84
44/50 = 88% (0.88)
7. hvick225
33/50 = 66% (0.66)
8. RyuK
36/50 = 72% (0.72)
9. Emilia
40/50 = 80% (0.8)
Doesn't rely on short maps.(c) jesse
10. Mathi
22/50 = 44% (0.44)
11. Rohulk
1/50 = 2% (0.02)
12. Piggey
32/50 = 64% (0.64)
13. Spare
25/50 = 50% (0.5) I honestly lost my count here so it might be a bit different, +/- 1/2
14. Bubbleman
19/50 = 38% (0.38)
15. Dustice
7/50 = 14% (0.14)
16. mcy3
45/50 = 90% (0.9)
17. DanyL
32/50 = 62% (0.62)
18. idke
0/50 = 0% (0x)
Hands down, much respect to idke.
19. Happystick
9/50 = 18% (0.18)
20. Yaong
2/50 = 4% (0.04)
21. bro_gamer72
25/50 = 50% (0.5)
22. _index
20/50 = 40% (0.4)
23. Totoki
33/50 = 66% (0.66)
24. kablaze
0/50 = 0% (0)
Hands down, wp.
25. talala
26/50 = 62% (0.62)
26. WWW
1/50 = 2% (0.02)
27. Aireu
19/50 = 38% (0.38)
28. Adamqs
2/50 = 4% (0.04)
29. Toy
13/50 = 26% (0.26)
tho we all know he is not about DT at all
30. Monko2k
24/50 = 48% (0.48)
31. CXu
8/50 = 16% (0.16)
32. Arnold24x24
36/50 = 72% (0.72)
33. Wilchq
0/50 = 0% (0)
much respect
34. Musty
7/50 = 14% (0.14)
35. uyghti
33/50 = 66% (0.66)
36. Sanze
23/50 = 56% (0.56)
37. Mizuru
28/50 = 66% (0.66)
38. freedomdiver
Ok this one doesnt count, gonna get #51 here instead.
39. Astar
30/50 = 60% (0.6)
40. Resia
43/50 = 86% (0.86)
41. Recia
14/50 = 28% (0.28)
42. Karthy
16/50 = 32% (0.32)
43. MrBoom
2/50 = 4% (0.04)
44. Bango
38/50 = 76% (0.76)
45. Zirba
33/50 = 66% (0.66)
46. fieryrage
31/50 = 62% (0.62)
47. MouseEasy
39/50 = 78% (0.78)
48. obtio
45/50 = 90% (0.9) holy shit
49. Dunois
17/50 = 34% (0.34)
50. Mlaw22
2/50 = 4% (0.04)
51. Dunii
37/50 = 74% (0.74)
The data got obtained by myself manually, so I might be mistaken in few places by +/- 0.1-0.2 value. I didnt take freedomdiver by obvious reasons, instead I counted #51 - Dunii
So the current average of short DT jumpy map per player's top 50 score in current top 50 players is:
combined multiplier (22.76) / amount of players (50) = 0.4552
or 45,52% of current PP earnings of top 50 players are short jumpy DT maps with 2 and less mins of draintime without DT.
I would say that a "short" map would have a drain time of <= 1:30 (after applying DT/HT), so 2 minutes is about correct pre-dt. It appears that we were both grossly wrong with our initial estimates then. At this point it becomes a subjective discussion as to whether 45.52% is an overly significant amount of pp. I agree that that is a high proportion of overall pp, but it is still the minority of pp. The majority of pp is gained on maps of nomod length > 2 minutes. In my own opinion, this shows that short maps can't possibly be exceedingly overrated, otherwise the majority of pp would come from those maps. There's no objective answer available though.
I don't really understand how removing the players who don't play short maps helps either of our points.hi-mei wrote:
Oh, if we remove these who dont play short DT maps at all
- idke (0)
- Kablaze (0)
- Wilchq (0)
- Rohulk (1 top DT score)
- Yaong (2)
- WWW (2)
- Adamqs (2)
- MrBooM (2)
- Mlaw22 (2)
We gonna get the following: 0.5392 which is 0.54% of PP of top ranked players who plays fasts maps is earned on short jumpy DT maps.
I'd like to see the percentage of players who play hr vs nomod vs doubletime before we try to argue that the distribution of pp should be evenly split between those subsets of players. I'd expect that there are more DT players in general. I'll take a look when I get more time.hi-mei wrote:
Dont forget, that there are also Nomod / HDHR mods are still available, that means, that, lets say, we got 3 type of players right now
- nomod
- hr (hdhr)
- dt (hddt)
The pure HD and FL players are rare for now, so lets stick with these 3.
So in perfect case scenario, the distribution should be like 33/33/34
instead, we got something around 50% of PP literally earned from abusing one mod on specific kind of maps.
Oh yea, I think I said that there are 80% people who abuses it in top 50 rank?
lets see.. In my opinion, the abuse of DT is when you surpasing that 33% from above, or to be completely fair lets take 40%.
so, from the data earned above, there are 30 players that surpassed these values, which is 60%.
Okay, my bad!
If you counted maps that aren't short as maps that are short, I'm sure you would too.hi-mei wrote:
I wonder what would happen if I counted Remote control, Caffeine Driver and other 2:30+ min DT sutff. I truly believe we would get these 80% easily.
I'm sorry but I can't take YOU seriously if you think that FCing a 20 star map would be down to... memorization? Wouldn't that make fcing anything memorization...? I'll treat this as irony. You're correct that in freedomdiver's case it was quite significantly a memorization score, but that's because he's using a touchscreen which makes jumps near irrelevant.hi-mei wrote:
However, coming back to our convo, I honestly cant take you seriously anymore, especially after you saidAnd I'll say it again. If you have a 20 star 20 second map and someone fc's it, you'd have to be braindead to argue that it should be worth less than 900pp; thus 20 second maps CAN give 900pp.Which is completely stupid, since if you wanna FC 20 sec 20 star map, all you will do is memorizing the muscle movement, which is basically turning the game into some physical memorization challenge, rather than video-game.
Which actually happened in our case, he didnt play the game properly, he abused the flaw of the map with third party device. In this case we should blame both - the map and the TS.