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LiSA - Catch the Moment -Radio Edit ver.-
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Topic Starter
uhm... overmapping to the background strings when the music is strong is a technic used by many mappers.LMT wrote:
I meant overmaps not overlaps ; ;
^actaully when I wrote this I feel someone will ask me for their names, and when I reply they will say they are all Asian mappers xxxxxx.
Anyways overmap is allowed, ever and forever.
yeah but my concern is it's not done consistently or it undermines the effect of actual sounds when you overmap. I'm fine with some overmap, but not when it makes the rhythm of the song misleading.
Topic Starter
I personally think current it fine, I will get to you when Moecho replyLMT wrote:
yeah but my concern is it's not done consistently or it undermines the effect of actual sounds when you overmap. I'm fine with some overmap, but not when it makes the rhythm of the song misleading.
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uhm...to my diff again, I still cannot find any valid reason for me to change it to not go with kick sliders:
literally most of catch the moment maps used extended sliders. what is their excuse? for emphasis the vocal? uhm, nope, to my standard, if that is the point, then I will argue why 00:59:126 - 00:59:442 - 00:59:758 - this three vocal beat should not get the same emphasis? why did other mappers use the extended sliders anyways on certain point? The best explain of my rhythm choice was, I just follow the drum, use kick sliders to highlight the background strings.
like seriously, you guys should try to map it your own and let me oppose to your rhythm choices. this song does not have a diverse kiai rhythm and if you were tring to use 3/4 to highlight certain parts of the vocal will be really hard to keep a consistent idea.
I tried to not use many kick sliders before, but I cannot develop a undefeatable mapping idea, that is why I go with my final kick slider usage.
Topic Starter
Moecho
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your passing-by mod here does feel a bit offending, but maybe I interpreted it incorrectlyLMT wrote:
Since this is dq'd, consider some of these points for moecho's diff:pls no hate just passing by ; ;
- There are some overmaps that I don't quite understand:
01:32:205 (5) - It is intentional to express/prepare for a more intense phase in the song
01:38:837 (2) - If you listen closely, the "n-" sound actually starts at the blue line, also as I find it fitting more
01:39:468 (2) - The "s-" sound starts there, and I find it fitting as well
00:18:942 (7) - especially this one since it gives the impression that this and 00:19:258 (2) - this are the same pattern but the sounds in the song suggest otherwise. Being one of the most intense parts of the song, I find it more fitting than placing a big jump to emphasize, and also what's wrong with 00:19:258 (2) - ?- 01:37:810 (3) - not sure what you're emphasising with this 1/4. This would be a 1/4 slider too? 01:38:283 (2) - They are clearly not exactly the same, as 01:37:810 (3) - being a loud snare, and 01:38:442 (3) - being basically a small guitar note sound
- 01:38:600 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - compared to 01:41:126 (1,2) - is quite a huge disparity in intensity even tho the sounds are same-ish. They are clearly not the "same-ish", it's a build up to 01:42:389 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - , also it's a preference of what you want to follow in the song
- 00:13:495 (4) - probably reconsider 1/4 slider concepts because this kinda undermines places where actual 1/4 exists like 00:15:863 (1,2) - It's all about what you want to emphasize, I would feel rather empty to have a single note there, and musically speaking it does fit for me
- 01:16:495 (4,5) - also this. Rhythm is like, 1/2 into triple but you make it sound like it's just 1/4 anyway (or 1/2) So I guess in this manner I should map out every single beat and sound only in this map, and no more no less? Sorry that my mapping preference isn't same as yours. Music is a feeling, mapping is expressing your feeling for the song, respect that, as well as it's not a major issue here at all, it's just a preference
- 01:18:389 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - same differentiation issue, actually this note 01:18:547 (2) - is overmapped. I can't figure out what you're trying to emphasise with this fancy pattern that happens only once in the map. First, according to your logic, 01:18:863 (2) - this would also be a "overmap". Second, I don't know if you enjoy listening songs at 25% and don't hear the music as a whole or not, but every 01:18:389 (1,2) - , 01:18:705 (1,2) - , 01:19:021 (1,2) - here represent a bass pick of 1/2s, and there's really nothing to complain about mapping to the music, it would feel wierd if I skipped one of the notes just to be "not overmapping because it's not quite audible". last, it's not about "figuring" out what a mapper want to do, you simply just feel it or not feel it
- 01:22:810 (3) - you overmap here but not 01:24:074 (3) - 01:21:547 (3) - They are in fact not the same, 01:21:705 (4,4) - do you hear any guitar sound on these? And then check the 01:22:968 (4) - , understand now? The kick slider is a way to emphasize an instrument quick switch as well as the required movement distance IS in fact increased even if you just click the heads of kick slider. Kick sliders DOES make the player feel different about how the objects are composed comparing to how it would feel with regular 1/2 circles
Okay so I want to give some opinions about the "drama" here.
The map is overall cool to play. The playstyle it gives it's quite unique imo, really challenging tbh.
Idk why people say it "doesn't" follow the music... like... that's why all maps are very similar to each other nowadays xd Every map uses 1/2 all the time cause that's some generic/safe stuff xd Have to say that, however, the map follows good the music in some ways
Imo it could've follow the music a bit better, but still it's good right now. 1/4 sliders are following drum quite well and the 3/4 creates enough variaton + following vocals good so not big worries about that imo.
So... since it's already DQ, I also wanted to give some thoughts about the gameplay itself. Not gonna argue about the style overall cause that's just some subjective sh*t.
ultra (why no custom diffname for such unique playstile¿?)
01:42:389 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1) - Since the map focus on reading and not shitmissing with the sliders, those jumps felt waaaay too high. I'd suggest to do some jumps with similar DS as 00:54:705 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1) -.
01:47:442 - I'm very dissapointed with these jumps tbh.. Like they're pure jump ¿? I was playing the map and then these jumps appeared and I was like.. wut? xD I know you didn't want to do similar pattern like 00:11:442 - cause of the drums... but it'd be nice if you add some slider aswell, cause right now they feel like jumps with no real purpose on the map itself.
Okay so those points were my major problems while playing the map... Hope you can get a look to them!
Imo this is just a different map, but it plays nice and well so all this drama won't really help.
Anyway. GL on re-ranking this! o/
The map is overall cool to play. The playstyle it gives it's quite unique imo, really challenging tbh.
Idk why people say it "doesn't" follow the music... like... that's why all maps are very similar to each other nowadays xd Every map uses 1/2 all the time cause that's some generic/safe stuff xd Have to say that, however, the map follows good the music in some ways
Imo it could've follow the music a bit better, but still it's good right now. 1/4 sliders are following drum quite well and the 3/4 creates enough variaton + following vocals good so not big worries about that imo.
So... since it's already DQ, I also wanted to give some thoughts about the gameplay itself. Not gonna argue about the style overall cause that's just some subjective sh*t.
ultra (why no custom diffname for such unique playstile¿?)
01:42:389 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1) - Since the map focus on reading and not shitmissing with the sliders, those jumps felt waaaay too high. I'd suggest to do some jumps with similar DS as 00:54:705 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1) -.
01:47:442 - I'm very dissapointed with these jumps tbh.. Like they're pure jump ¿? I was playing the map and then these jumps appeared and I was like.. wut? xD I know you didn't want to do similar pattern like 00:11:442 - cause of the drums... but it'd be nice if you add some slider aswell, cause right now they feel like jumps with no real purpose on the map itself.
Okay so those points were my major problems while playing the map... Hope you can get a look to them!
Imo this is just a different map, but it plays nice and well so all this drama won't really help.
Anyway. GL on re-ranking this! o/
Topic Starter
Your last two points looks ok for me, but since I have not yet got a clear explanation of why my kick slider usage is not acceptable, I will not change my map until I find a valid DQ reasoning. I might take another look at your point and adjust them slightly if I got a good reason to update my map.iYiyo wrote:
Okay so I want to give some opinions about the "drama" here.
The map is overall cool to play. The playstyle it gives it's quite unique imo, really challenging tbh.
Idk why people say it "doesn't" follow the music... like... that's why all maps are very similar to each other nowadays xd Every map uses 1/2 all the time cause that's some generic/safe stuff xd Have to say that, however, the map follows good the music in some ways
Imo it could've follow the music a bit better, but still it's good right now. 1/4 sliders are following drum quite well and the 3/4 creates enough variaton + following vocals good so not big worries about that imo.
So... since it's already DQ, I also wanted to give some thoughts about the gameplay itself. Not gonna argue about the style overall cause that's just some subjective sh*t.
ultra (why no custom diffname for such unique playstile¿?)
01:42:389 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1) - Since the map focus on reading and not shitmissing with the sliders, those jumps felt waaaay too high. I'd suggest to do some jumps with similar DS as 00:54:705 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1) -.
01:47:442 - I'm very dissapointed with these jumps tbh.. Like they're pure jump ¿? I was playing the map and then these jumps appeared and I was like.. wut? xD I know you didn't want to do similar pattern like 00:11:442 - cause of the drums... but it'd be nice if you add some slider aswell, cause right now they feel like jumps with no real purpose on the map itself.
Okay so those points were my major problems while playing the map... Hope you can get a look to them!
Imo this is just a different map, but it plays nice and well so all this drama won't really help.
Anyway. GL on re-ranking this! o/
And thank you for your support.
Hey, I think you should take a step back and read what people are actually saying, they are understanding your concept and your ideas, they are pointing out taht in a lot of cases these things go against the song.
The explanations on this thread are pretty detailed as to why this is the case and you are refuting the arguments with something pretty vague among the lines of "you guys don't understand my idea".
I think they do understand the idea you had, but think this could be improved upon because as it stands now you are partly ignoring the song for your idea instead of following it. Something being intentional does not mean automatically it being a good idea.
I think you should take some time and read over the stuff that was said again and attempt to understand what they are actually trying to do: helping you to make your map make more sense to everybody
The explanations on this thread are pretty detailed as to why this is the case and you are refuting the arguments with something pretty vague among the lines of "you guys don't understand my idea".
I think they do understand the idea you had, but think this could be improved upon because as it stands now you are partly ignoring the song for your idea instead of following it. Something being intentional does not mean automatically it being a good idea.
I think you should take some time and read over the stuff that was said again and attempt to understand what they are actually trying to do: helping you to make your map make more sense to everybody
It's a common misconception that kicksliders (1/4 sliders) = circles in terms of how they play. You click on them, then move onto the next object. However, kicksliders have that extra tail at the end (that you aren't required to play to get a 300 in most cases). Because they have that tail, they create a sort of rushed feeling because of the additional movement you see after you click the head. When you utilize this additional movement on a note that doesn't require that movement, you are in fact accentuating that note already, through visual distinction. Basically you are are demonstrating that even though this particular note "could" have been mapped to a circle, you decided to use a 1/4 slider instead, which makes the note feel more special than a regular circle.
Additionally, because kicksliders operate with that additional slider-track and tail, they are prone to creating flows and movements that otherwise wouldn't be there. Take 00:56:916 (1,2,3) - for example.
However, because of how they are shaped, they create a rotational flow. It's largely visual in terms of the flow, as in you ca probably still play them similar to how they are as circles, and still get 300's, but unlike circles, you can no longer assume everyone will play these patterns exactly how you would have wanted. Flow analysis is easy on circle patterns, but when you introduce sliders, it becomes more complicated due to slider leniency, and people's ability to release early / play the slider to different lengths. Anyways the main point I'm saying is that kickslider usage can actually create a feeling that would otherwise be nonexistent if they were just circles.
Well, anyways, that was basically a summary of my reasoning when I used extended sliders / 1/4 sliders on my Aomine diff of Can Do: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/493273. Imo kicksliders can be mapped in a way to behave very differently from just normal circles, and your map ends up doing so, though I don't believe that was intentional, and even if it was, I don't believe there is good justification for it.
Additionally, because kicksliders operate with that additional slider-track and tail, they are prone to creating flows and movements that otherwise wouldn't be there. Take 00:56:916 (1,2,3) - for example.
However, because of how they are shaped, they create a rotational flow. It's largely visual in terms of the flow, as in you ca probably still play them similar to how they are as circles, and still get 300's, but unlike circles, you can no longer assume everyone will play these patterns exactly how you would have wanted. Flow analysis is easy on circle patterns, but when you introduce sliders, it becomes more complicated due to slider leniency, and people's ability to release early / play the slider to different lengths. Anyways the main point I'm saying is that kickslider usage can actually create a feeling that would otherwise be nonexistent if they were just circles.
Well, anyways, that was basically a summary of my reasoning when I used extended sliders / 1/4 sliders on my Aomine diff of Can Do: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/493273. Imo kicksliders can be mapped in a way to behave very differently from just normal circles, and your map ends up doing so, though I don't believe that was intentional, and even if it was, I don't believe there is good justification for it.
Topic Starter
@Pho You cannot convince me any of your points made there. and for the kick slider, I have explained why I use that: drum beats are treated all as a click, then use the slider body to present the string. However, stings are continuing which means it is a nonestop "train" as you said.
however, it is not really nonestop, since the players got brains and they could read the object as 1/2 triplet clicks (also with HS hints). And my design of my map was using the sliders to hint players for the flow change. change the kick sliders to notes will destroy my entire kiai design. from what i heard from players, they got no problems with th kiai, because a good player interprets mappers idea and flow it. once players understand the idea, they will be able to play your map. kick slider as clicks is a rather simple idea so I see no problem with that.
however, it is not really nonestop, since the players got brains and they could read the object as 1/2 triplet clicks (also with HS hints). And my design of my map was using the sliders to hint players for the flow change. change the kick sliders to notes will destroy my entire kiai design. from what i heard from players, they got no problems with th kiai, because a good player interprets mappers idea and flow it. once players understand the idea, they will be able to play your map. kick slider as clicks is a rather simple idea so I see no problem with that.
Topic Starter
However, the truth is, anyone can play that diff should be able to play that kick slider. the reason I do not want to use notes is because, the notes does not give any pressure on the player, and it break the flow (in my theory, jumps always cut the flow), if I were using the note instead of the kick slider, I will design this completely different style. however, without any reading issue, playability issue, I do not see a point where a neat idea should be considered unrankable.Monstrata wrote:
However, because of how they are shaped, they create a rotational flow. It's largely visual in terms of the flow, as in you ca probably still play them similar to how they are as circles, and still get 300's, but unlike circles, you can no longer assume everyone will play these patterns exactly how you would have wanted. Flow analysis is easy on circle patterns, but when you introduce sliders, it becomes more complicated due to slider leniency, and people's ability to release early / play the slider to different lengths. Anyways the main point I'm saying is that kickslider usage can actually create a feeling that would otherwise be nonexistent if they were just circles.
Topic Starter
make objective sense, and not make your sense.
If the idea the clear enough, you should not force me to change because it is more "intuitive to play".
It is making sense already, taking your sunglasses off and play it (before that you have to be able to play it, this diff targeted 6000pp above or even more advanced players). although I could not play it no mod, but test players and HT play tests tell me that it is good to go.
If the idea the clear enough, you should not force me to change because it is more "intuitive to play".
It is making sense already, taking your sunglasses off and play it (before that you have to be able to play it, this diff targeted 6000pp above or even more advanced players). although I could not play it no mod, but test players and HT play tests tell me that it is good to go.
Topic Starter
Battle wrote:
I'll add a bit of my opinion on the ultra since Pho already added his
[Ultra]
00:10:652 (3,1) - I don't really see a reason to have this snapped 1/8 here, it heavily increases the precision it takes to hit 1 properly while also making it easier for people to get 100 on the slider because more often than not a player will expect a 1/4 slider not a really awkwardly snapped to a yellow sliderit is not a problem because the NC hint and the pattern
00:13:337 (4,5) - I don't exactly see why you've made this jump abnormally big, all those guitar beats are far stronger than this, this jump seems to exist just to exist
00:14:442 (3,1) - Would have been better if you had used a 1/2 slider instead, having both really isn't practical since 3 is obviously more important (and you've been following the guitar), making a 1/2 slider make much more sense imo
00:16:495 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - This feels more like it breaks up into a 123456 123456 pattern rather than a 1234 1234 1234 pattern, the pitch changes at 00:17:126 (1) - but a much larger pitch change occurs at 00:17:442 (3) - . In addition to this there's not really an increase in intensity happening here, the jumps are consistently around the same spacing while the music is increasing in intensity here
00:21:547 - For this section I feel as if the 3/4 usage is fairly poor, many of the 3/4 go over beats on the red tick, and though it is arguable that these beats are ignorable, this section is filled with consistent 1/2 beats that feel fairly calm compared to the adjacent sections. I feel it's inappropriate to have such a calm section still have a high SV of 1.4x, but I suppose that's subjective as to how fast it feels
00:31:179 (1,2,3) - While I am all for using 1/4 sliders to create fast feeling gameplay to support a "mood" of things being more fast-paced, I don't really see the point in using 1/4 sliders here, the music definitely picks up in intensity here, but not to the point where overmapping 1/4 sliders is appropriate
00:38:600 (4,5) - An extended slider doesn't really make sense here, you're skipping over a vocal beat which you've been following, you may want to stick to your theme of 3/4 sliders but you can't exactly just break away from what you're following, it feels awkwardly inconsistent both to hear and to play
00:50:600 (1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4) - This is another section where the section is definitely increasing in intensity, most notably at 00:51:231 (1,2,3,4) - yet maintains consistent spacing with the rest of this section of small spaced 1/2 stuff
Like Pho, I feel like the 1/4 sliders are overused in the kiai, the song just really doesn't call for something that creates pseudo-intensity as much as these 1/4 sliders do. The part where I felt fit the 1/4 sliders during the kiai was the calmer sections from 01:07:337 - to 01:12:074 - simply because it worked well with the drum hitsounding and keeping the relative intensity of the other parts of the kiai. Other than that there's very little drums to support the 1/4 sliders in the kiai as there's no drums to support them, only vocals, which makes it very awkward to hear and play in my opinion.
01:29:758 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - I would expect this to fit in more of the lines of something like 01:06:231 (3,1,2,3,4,1) - since the vocals are fairly calm here, if not that kind of spacing probably more along the lines of 01:26:600 (1,2,1,2) - but a bit more spaced out of course
01:47:442 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - I also agree that the spacing for here doesn't really follow what the music provides. It does not really follow the stronger beats, making weaker beats (e.g. 01:49:495 (2,3) - ) the same spacing as the stronger beats.
From what I understand, you've mapped purposely with larger spacing to make it more "difficult". While I do not really have a problem with the concept of that itself, it becomes an issue for me when it's mapped solely for the difficulty aspect of it instead of what the song offers. You clearly acknowledge pp mapping and it's existence, yet I don't really see why you purposely follow that trend when you know that it's fairly unreasonable. In an ideal world a map would have great aesthetics and flow and not be generic but it seems like great aesthetics and flow just falls under generic pp mapping majority of the time. While I do appreciate the effort on focusing on flow, I feel like you shouldn't completely ignore aesthetics by using differing slider shapes all the time to break visual consistency just cuz
to kind of elaborate on what monstrata said about 1/4 sliders giving a rushed feeling:
in terms of how 1/4 sliders play, it does require some amount of holding which 1/2 circles very much do not require. this holding gives tails of the sliders some sense of value and within this map, you use both rhythmic representations of the 1/4 sliders and the 1/2 circles to represent roughly the same sounds in the music. the changes you have between these circles and sliders are curious, because from looking at this maps its as if you felt they have the same value. because this seems to be your approach its almost as if there is really no definition you have created, and thus a lot of people find this map inconsistent, and in terms of using object mechanics correctly, low quality.
in terms of how 1/4 sliders play, it does require some amount of holding which 1/2 circles very much do not require. this holding gives tails of the sliders some sense of value and within this map, you use both rhythmic representations of the 1/4 sliders and the 1/2 circles to represent roughly the same sounds in the music. the changes you have between these circles and sliders are curious, because from looking at this maps its as if you felt they have the same value. because this seems to be your approach its almost as if there is really no definition you have created, and thus a lot of people find this map inconsistent, and in terms of using object mechanics correctly, low quality.
it seems as though we probably won't be reaching an agreement
Green meant I felt decently fine with the explanations, therefore there is no reason to continue the discussion for those points
Reply
Shad0w1and wrote:
Battle wrote:
I'll add a bit of my opinion on the ultra since Pho already added his
[Ultra]
00:10:652 (3,1) - I don't really see a reason to have this snapped 1/8 here, it heavily increases the precision it takes to hit 1 properly while also making it easier for people to get 100 on the slider because more often than not a player will expect a 1/4 slider not a really awkwardly snapped to a yellow slider :arrow: it is not a problem because the NC hint and the pattern It still presents a problem though, you're justifying a snapping to a non-existant beat as being okay due to there being an NC to make reading easier, the problem is not the readability, it's problem is that it is snapped to nothing right now
00:13:337 (4,5) - I don't exactly see why you've made this jump abnormally big, all those guitar beats are far stronger than this, this jump seems to exist just to exist :arrow: I wish people can stop talking about minor spacing issues, they does not affect the playing experience and also for my style it has nothing to do with my designing.However jump inconsistencies lead to other stronger beats feeling weaker and overall not as impactful due to inferior beats having similar spacing, I don't know if you can completely notice it in HT, but it's fairly noticeable playing at normal speed
00:14:442 (3,1) - Would have been better if you had used a 1/2 slider instead, having both really isn't practical since 3 is obviously more important (and you've been following the guitar), making a 1/2 slider make much more sense imo
00:16:495 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - This feels more like it breaks up into a 123456 123456 pattern rather than a 1234 1234 1234 pattern, the pitch changes at 00:17:126 (1) - but a much larger pitch change occurs at 00:17:442 (3) - . In addition to this there's not really an increase in intensity happening here, the jumps are consistently around the same spacing while the music is increasing in intensity here :arrow: uhm... i disagree about this...How so? The guitar is broken up into that so I don't see why it would be broken up into 1234 blocks
00:21:547 - For this section I feel as if the 3/4 usage is fairly poor, many of the 3/4 go over beats on the red tick, and though it is arguable that these beats are ignorable, this section is filled with consistent 1/2 beats that feel fairly calm compared to the adjacent sections. I feel it's inappropriate to have such a calm section still have a high SV of 1.4x, but I suppose that's subjective as to how fast it feels :arrow: if you were mention the beat on 00:21:705 - it is presented as an angle. spacing is fine to the theme.
00:31:179 (1,2,3) - While I am all for using 1/4 sliders to create fast feeling gameplay to support a "mood" of things being more fast-paced, I don't really see the point in using 1/4 sliders here, the music definitely picks up in intensity here, but not to the point where overmapping 1/4 sliders is appropriate :arrow: this has been discussed before and either way worked, I choose to build to the intensity
00:38:600 (4,5) - An extended slider doesn't really make sense here, you're skipping over a vocal beat which you've been following, you may want to stick to your theme of 3/4 sliders but you can't exactly just break away from what you're following, it feels awkwardly inconsistent both to hear and to play :arrow: slider angle can present vocal beat, that is my theory and it make more sense to the music I'm not exactly all for this but I suppose that works enough, considering how you're still skipping over beats I still don't necessarily agree with it. An angle is much more different than an actual circle or slider end or start, the latter actually produces a sound that gives proper feedback to the player while the earlier option does not
00:50:600 (1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4) - This is another section where the section is definitely increasing in intensity, most notably at 00:51:231 (1,2,3,4) - yet maintains consistent spacing with the rest of this section of small spaced 1/2 stuff :arrow: it is not like you have to place every note according to its intensity. the space does not work, but not always the best way to present the music. You do not have to make every note according to its intensity. That much is clear, however you shouldn't compromise intensity to spacing consistency too often for the sake of overriding them with patterns, as a player it makes much more sense to have appropriate jumps mapped to the stronger sounds while the weaker sounds are mapped to smaller jumps. It's the sort of small details that go into mapping that need to be accounted for
Like Pho, I feel like the 1/4 sliders are overused in the kiai, the song just really doesn't call for something that creates pseudo-intensity as much as these 1/4 sliders do. The part where I felt fit the 1/4 sliders during the kiai was the calmer sections from 01:07:337 - to 01:12:074 - simply because it worked well with the drum hitsounding and keeping the relative intensity of the other parts of the kiai. Other than that there's very little drums to support the 1/4 sliders in the kiai as there's no drums to support them, only vocals, which makes it very awkward to hear and play in my opinion. :arrow: explained enough in other posts I still disagree with these. The matter of why it was DQ'd in the first place is that vocals simply cannot support the rhythm that you're doing. Overmapping has proven to be effective in the past yes, but the types of songs that it HAS worked in is heavily differ from this song. This song is, like many anime songs, fairly simple in it's rhythm structure. While it's okay to add a few overmaps every now and then accompanied by proper hitsounds to add a bit more to the music to make sure it's fairly monotonous. However, the way this is overmapped, stressing consistency over relevance makes the overmapping oppressive and unfitting
01:29:758 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - I would expect this to fit in more of the lines of something like 01:06:231 (3,1,2,3,4,1) - since the vocals are fairly calm here, if not that kind of spacing probably more along the lines of 01:26:600 (1,2,1,2) - but a bit more spaced out of course
01:47:442 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - I also agree that the spacing for here doesn't really follow what the music provides. It does not really follow the stronger beats, making weaker beats (e.g. 01:49:495 (2,3) - ) the same spacing as the stronger beats. :arrow: again, spacing is not everything, and over all spacing fits the intensity And again, spacing should be attempting to fit the intensity of the song, the overall spacing fits the intensity because it's all strong, yet it does not take into account the gradual increase of intensity here, making all the jumps feel like you're just repeating the same motion over and over until the map eventually ends
Green meant I felt decently fine with the explanations, therefore there is no reason to continue the discussion for those points
The NC thing might be a reason to justify, except you're NCing anywhere and everywhere possible to emphasise anything. There's no reason why it should be read as a 1/8 'because NC' when the whole diff NCs in uncommon parts to emphasise stuff without 1/8s.Shad0w1and wrote:
Battle wrote:
I'll add a bit of my opinion on the ultra since Pho already added his
[Ultra]
00:10:652 (3,1) - I don't really see a reason to have this snapped 1/8 here, it heavily increases the precision it takes to hit 1 properly while also making it easier for people to get 100 on the slider because more often than not a player will expect a 1/4 slider not a really awkwardly snapped to a yellow slider
Topic Starter
the questions is, it is not that a problem for anyone who can play this diff well. and I am saying the change from the kick sliders to notes will destroy my entire kiai design. however, there are also many people see no problem with my rhythm choice. If you got your theory, I got my theory and people who support me, I hope you can at least stay away from the set instead of forcing me to change smt that is not a real problem.bor wrote:
to kind of elaborate on what monstrata said about 1/4 sliders giving a rushed feeling:
in terms of how 1/4 sliders play, it does require some amount of holding which 1/2 circles very much do not require. this holding gives tails of the sliders some sense of value and within this map, you use both rhythmic representations of the 1/4 sliders and the 1/2 circles to represent roughly the same sounds in the music. the changes you have between these circles and sliders are curious, because from looking at this maps its as if you felt they have the same value. because this seems to be your approach its almost as if there is really no definition you have created, and thus a lot of people find this map inconsistent, and in terms of using object mechanics correctly, low quality.
it is like: oh why can this guy rank a map that sets to CS7? oh why can this guy rank a map that has only horizontal sliders? oh why can this guy rank a map that only has circles? oh why can this guy rank a 8* map that many people can't FC?
please, when the objective idea was clear, it is player's job to deal with it. if it has a neat design, clear objective, and rankable, why would you even come to bother it?
you are asking me to remap the entire kiai section which plays very well. many test players see no problems about the kiai kick sliders. I could not even imagine why would people doubt about this. the rhythm decision was so simple and clear.
Topic Starter
??? why? it does not make any difference to snap it to 1/4 or 1/8. because players at this speed can only read the slider head, the spacing is also good for the pattern to be understood. always remember that other than the spacing, the clickable distance is even more important for the top players.Sinnoh wrote:
The NC thing might be a reason to justify, except you're NCing anywhere and everywhere possible to emphasize anything. There's no reason why it should be read as a 1/8 'because NC' when the whole diff NCs in uncommon parts to emphasize stuff without 1/8s.
reply the rest later some day
and again and again, slider end does not need to be snapped to a beat every time
Well yes, objectively your map is fine because it fills out the requirement of being mapped to beats and being timed well. The other parts of it such as mapping to beats that are not present with overmapping not entirely supported by the song as well as spacing emphasis are somewhat subjective but it seems to be entering more of the realm of intersubjectivity. If it has an objective, a design and is rankable, then in some sense in a world that isn't regulated by anyone yes no one would touch it. However this game is run by a system of people who approve of beatmaps before sending them off to be ranked. Because of that fact, yes people come to bother because yes people are considered about the quality of it.
I, and as I suppose other mappers and modders, try to stay within the realm they are comfortable modding or mapping, maps such as CS7 or other unconventional concepts are more likely for extremely experience individuals to give their input on the matter. There's a difference between a player stating that it is good and a modder stating that it is good. For one, the player is much more lenient in what they consider as acceptable, being accustomed to any type of movement at any given moment in any given instance. A modder however, will look more at the micro level things such as proper rhythm accentuation and whether or not the map is relevant to the song. You should strive to achieve the approval of both modders and players ideally, however that is not always attainable 100%, thus you should strive to gain a middle ground between the two, not just dismiss modders of because a player states that it players fine because anything can play fine to an experienced player
I, and as I suppose other mappers and modders, try to stay within the realm they are comfortable modding or mapping, maps such as CS7 or other unconventional concepts are more likely for extremely experience individuals to give their input on the matter. There's a difference between a player stating that it is good and a modder stating that it is good. For one, the player is much more lenient in what they consider as acceptable, being accustomed to any type of movement at any given moment in any given instance. A modder however, will look more at the micro level things such as proper rhythm accentuation and whether or not the map is relevant to the song. You should strive to achieve the approval of both modders and players ideally, however that is not always attainable 100%, thus you should strive to gain a middle ground between the two, not just dismiss modders of because a player states that it players fine because anything can play fine to an experienced player
nothing i said up there was addressed : ok_hand :
if it doesn't make any difference why not snap it to 1/4 in the first place?Shad0w1and wrote:
??? why? it does not make any difference to snap it to 1/4 or 1/8.
if a player can only read the slider head, then they shouldn't be able to read the slider body and figure out it's a 3/8 slider?Shad0w1and wrote:
because players at this speed can only read the slider head,
You never addressed anything I said, it has nothing to do with difficulty, its to do with you failing to create a distinction between your object choices. the map is easy enough who cares. cookiezi can hdhr maps much harder than this. this post has nothing to do with how the map plays, I don't care if it plays like crap or not, if you do than who cares. its just about consistency of your representation of the song.Shad0w1and wrote:
the questions is, it is not that a problem for anyone who can play this diff well. and I am saying the change from the kick sliders to notes will destroy my entire kiai design. however, there are also many people see no problem with my rhythm choice. If you got your theory, I got my theory and people who support me, I hope you can at least stay away from the set instead of forcing me to change smt that is not a real problem.bor wrote:
to kind of elaborate on what monstrata said about 1/4 sliders giving a rushed feeling:
in terms of how 1/4 sliders play, it does require some amount of holding which 1/2 circles very much do not require. this holding gives tails of the sliders some sense of value and within this map, you use both rhythmic representations of the 1/4 sliders and the 1/2 circles to represent roughly the same sounds in the music. the changes you have between these circles and sliders are curious, because from looking at this maps its as if you felt they have the same value. because this seems to be your approach its almost as if there is really no definition you have created, and thus a lot of people find this map inconsistent, and in terms of using object mechanics correctly, low quality.
it is like: oh why can this guy rank a map that sets to CS7? oh why can this guy rank a map that has only horizontal sliders? oh why can this guy rank a map that only has circles? oh why can this guy rank a 8* map that many people can't FC?
please, when the objective idea was clear, it is player's job to deal with it. if it has a neat design, clear objective, and rankable, why would you even come to bother it?
you are asking me to remap the entire kiai section which plays very well. many test players see no problems about the kiai kick sliders. I could not even imagine why would people doubt about this. the rhythm decision was so simple and clear.
other people here say "wah i don't like how this plays" you just say no thanks because they clearly don't know what they are talking about since everyone plays differently.
as for remapping your kiai, if my description of this makes you feel as if that is necessary to fix my issue with the map there is no issue with that. don't be lazy if you feel there are things you can improve LOL.
Can you edit your posts instead of making 4 to reply to 4 people please?
Regular singletapping and 1/4 slidertapping make for two very different playing experiences, and you are trying to justify your usage of them by saying that 'if i want more flow in my maps, i can replace hitcircles with 1/4 sliders instead because it's basically the same'. By that logic, every map with regular 1/2 singletaps (the majority of ranked anime TV sizes) could have their jumpsections be replaced with 1/4 slider sections whenever the mapper sees it fit and that would be a totally fine mapping technique... which is certainly not.Shad0w1and wrote:
@Pho You cannot convince me any of your points made there. and for the kick slider, I have explained why I use that: drum beats are treated all as a click, then use the slider body to present the string. However, stings are continuing which means it is a nonestop "train" as you said.
however, it is not really nonestop, since the players got brains and they could read the object as 1/2 triplet clicks (also with HS hints). And my design of my map was using the sliders to hint players for the flow change. change the kick sliders to notes will destroy my entire kiai design. from what i heard from players, they got no problems with th kiai, because a good player interprets mappers idea and flow it. once players understand the idea, they will be able to play your map. kick slider as clicks is a rather simple idea so I see no problem with that.
Your 'neat' idea of keeping a constant motion-intense gameplay with sliders is not an unrankable issue per se, but considering the song you are using this idea on, it doesn't work with the song and gives people a false impression and several people in this thread already told you why that is. There is little to no justification in the music to utilize kicksliders to such a degree, and while it might be perfectly okay from a player's perspective, it's clearly not from mapper's perspectives.
I feel like this discussion leads to nowhere because you're too stuck in your own ideas to find a consensus with others. I can't and won't force you to fix things up, so you may leave the map like that. Just keep in mind that you won't be able to get this ranked if you can't find a compromise, because we already explained to you several times, and in detail, why this map lacks quality.
Topic Starter
"doesn't work with song" is a subjective statement, I believe it worked better than just using notes.
Like seriously, what is your point? If all your point is subjective them why bother? according to player feedback, the kiai was not even hard, some of them mention the spacing in general too hard for them, but the kiai plays well ever and forever. What is your point of DQ a plays well, got clear rhythm choice, reads very well section for a remapping? interesting. If that is the point, I could use subjective ideas to argue every map for DQ. Is my rhythm choice the best? maybe not, idk, but is it clear enough and got a consistent idea in terms of presenting the music? yes it does. do not argue with me say that "kick sliders are too hard and does not fit", if there are people think they fit, them plz accept the mapping diversity.
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If you think it is needed, I could start gather players' opinions about the kick slider usage. In case you guys just discuss that in your discord and find your supporters and come to support this DQ... like I do not want to say that, many people feel the kiai is fine, like in mons' first mod it was not even raised as a problem, I am assuming many people might not like kick sliders very much, but they could understand the idea.
for Battle, if you still do not agree with the spacing, I can only say that: sometimes, be a player not a mapper, and check if that little space change even helped the map quality as a player.
Like seriously, what is your point? If all your point is subjective them why bother? according to player feedback, the kiai was not even hard, some of them mention the spacing in general too hard for them, but the kiai plays well ever and forever. What is your point of DQ a plays well, got clear rhythm choice, reads very well section for a remapping? interesting. If that is the point, I could use subjective ideas to argue every map for DQ. Is my rhythm choice the best? maybe not, idk, but is it clear enough and got a consistent idea in terms of presenting the music? yes it does. do not argue with me say that "kick sliders are too hard and does not fit", if there are people think they fit, them plz accept the mapping diversity.
=====================
If you think it is needed, I could start gather players' opinions about the kick slider usage. In case you guys just discuss that in your discord and find your supporters and come to support this DQ... like I do not want to say that, many people feel the kiai is fine, like in mons' first mod it was not even raised as a problem, I am assuming many people might not like kick sliders very much, but they could understand the idea.
for Battle, if you still do not agree with the spacing, I can only say that: sometimes, be a player not a mapper, and check if that little space change even helped the map quality as a player.
I was getting back to the thread to see what moecho had to say and this thread blew out of proportion lol.
Shadowland, I think no one here has anything negative towards you and they're trying to point out things they disagree with. They are well aware that you're an experienced mapper and you know how to execute concepts, the debate is whether this concept works and to which extent it works well (or not-so-well).
It is not how it plays, it plays well for the most part even for a 4kpp scrub like me. What they're trying to say from what I've seen (and also from my personal perspective) is that the amount of overmapped objects are just excessive to a point that the rhythm was too concealed within the overmapped sliderends.
As for moecho, I was not meant to be offensive and there are certain points I think you misunderstood my intentions, I will give you a proper reply when the dust has settled. I really like how your diff looks and just some tweaks on certain consistency and differentiation issues would make it feel better.
Again, good luck on reranking, just a tiny reminder that people here are trying to help you, they're on your side and they are not trying to nuke your map.
Shadowland, I think no one here has anything negative towards you and they're trying to point out things they disagree with. They are well aware that you're an experienced mapper and you know how to execute concepts, the debate is whether this concept works and to which extent it works well (or not-so-well).
It is not how it plays, it plays well for the most part even for a 4kpp scrub like me. What they're trying to say from what I've seen (and also from my personal perspective) is that the amount of overmapped objects are just excessive to a point that the rhythm was too concealed within the overmapped sliderends.
As for moecho, I was not meant to be offensive and there are certain points I think you misunderstood my intentions, I will give you a proper reply when the dust has settled. I really like how your diff looks and just some tweaks on certain consistency and differentiation issues would make it feel better.
Again, good luck on reranking, just a tiny reminder that people here are trying to help you, they're on your side and they are not trying to nuke your map.
As long as it is well justified, explained and recognized as a critical issue by more than a handful of people who are knowledged in mapping, of course. That's how the current system works, and being subjective is not a bad thing because most aspects of mapping are. You take it as an excuse that as long as a map plays fine, it should be ranked, to do as you please. But that's bad mindset to approach mapping. Please read the issues everyone pointed out more carefully.Shad0w1and wrote:
If that is the point, I could use subjective ideas to argue every map for DQ.
I'm done discussing with you in the thread, if you like to argue with me about the map furthermore, then feel free to contact me in-game.
Topic Starter
kick sliders are not overused if the idea was to fill the strings with the slider bodies.
I understand you guys have been stick with that point, but, I do not want to make this too complex.
I just want to say, there are people who could understand the simple idea, and there are people do not show up for their opinions, and there are more people could play it well.
every time when I start thinking "I am just want to get rid of the discussion and remap it", then I look at my map, I see no problem in my map, like not even single point stands for a DQ.
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like really, I do not want to ask everyone who supports me to come here to post their opinion, but if you think it is needed, I could find tons of them say this plays fine and make sense to the theme and music.
I understand you guys have been stick with that point, but, I do not want to make this too complex.
I just want to say, there are people who could understand the simple idea, and there are people do not show up for their opinions, and there are more people could play it well.
every time when I start thinking "I am just want to get rid of the discussion and remap it", then I look at my map, I see no problem in my map, like not even single point stands for a DQ.
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like really, I do not want to ask everyone who supports me to come here to post their opinion, but if you think it is needed, I could find tons of them say this plays fine and make sense to the theme and music.
I think 'plays fine' is not even an argument here. So let's put that aside. A full 1/2 jump map can still play fine no matter how the music is too.
1/4 kick sliders aren't quite same as 3/4 extended sliders because uhh... using 1/4 sliders sequentially means you make constant 1/4 sounds. So rather than 'extended' sounds, they rather provide distinct 1/4 sounds, only 1/2s being stronger. Like, if something can be called as 'extended' they should cover most of the sounds but in this case these sliders only cover the half of them, and the other half is just empty. The slider tails just end on 1/4 beats which are just as clear as the 1/2 beats.
So by using 1/4 sliders here you added some meaningless 1/4 beats which has far more clear and strong effect than representing the strings as slider body.
And an unrelated thing: 00:57:074 - 01:17:284 - I don't hear a drum here but you made it look like same as the other drums?
1/4 kick sliders aren't quite same as 3/4 extended sliders because uhh... using 1/4 sliders sequentially means you make constant 1/4 sounds. So rather than 'extended' sounds, they rather provide distinct 1/4 sounds, only 1/2s being stronger. Like, if something can be called as 'extended' they should cover most of the sounds but in this case these sliders only cover the half of them, and the other half is just empty. The slider tails just end on 1/4 beats which are just as clear as the 1/2 beats.
So by using 1/4 sliders here you added some meaningless 1/4 beats which has far more clear and strong effect than representing the strings as slider body.
And an unrelated thing: 00:57:074 - 01:17:284 - I don't hear a drum here but you made it look like same as the other drums?
I feel like I have to help here just a bit cause things are messed up.
To finish I'd like to say that every modder here are trying to "help" but in this case I don't really see that at all. You guys are leading Shad0w1and to a dead end. He cannot push forward his map because you're stuck in generic stuff such as overmap, 1/4sliders, etc. Sometimes you need to really think what the mapper wants to say (Shad0w1and has given his opinion like 5 times already). Imo the usage of 1/2 circles and 1/4 sliders are quite well structured, not abusing them on kiai-section but on the kiai the 1/4 spam starts which fits ok.
So yeah, stop saying "it lacks of quality" or "you have to see it as a modder/mapper's perspective rather than player's". At the end this is a game, and if lots of players find it funny/good to play + it already got some good feedback by mappers(+ BN's) I see no real issue here. And yes, I'm a mapper and a "decent"not really player so my points should support Shad0w1and's diff in some way.
Yeah, you explained lots of things, but still I think you're wrong when saying that it doesn't work with the song. Actually it works very well.Pho wrote:
Your 'neat' idea of keeping a constant motion-intense gameplay with sliders is not an unrankable issue per se, but considering the song you are using this idea on, it doesn't work with the song and gives people a false impression and several people in this thread already told you why that is.
Imo this is just a different way of representing the music. You have to see the kicksliders in the actual gameplay rather than in the editor. When using "kicksliders" (1/4 sliders) you don't really have to think too much that it has a sliderbody and a tail (when being a player). They're not necessary emphasizing the tails of them nor the body, but adding some hardeness to the whole map with the extra of holding more through the map. Yes, if you use some 1/4 sliders they can feel as overmapping, but since he's using it in all the diff as it's style, it's not really overmap at all.Pho wrote:
There is little to no justification in the music to utilize kicksliders to such a degree, and while it might be perfectly okay from a player's perspective, it's clearly not from mapper's perspectives.
To finish I'd like to say that every modder here are trying to "help" but in this case I don't really see that at all. You guys are leading Shad0w1and to a dead end. He cannot push forward his map because you're stuck in generic stuff such as overmap, 1/4sliders, etc. Sometimes you need to really think what the mapper wants to say (Shad0w1and has given his opinion like 5 times already). Imo the usage of 1/2 circles and 1/4 sliders are quite well structured, not abusing them on kiai-section but on the kiai the 1/4 spam starts which fits ok.
So yeah, stop saying "it lacks of quality" or "you have to see it as a modder/mapper's perspective rather than player's". At the end this is a game, and if lots of players find it funny/good to play + it already got some good feedback by mappers(+ BN's) I see no real issue here. And yes, I'm a mapper and a "decent"
Topic Starter
somehow I feel people here just ignores the long string sound on every two downbeat, and only discuss about how I ignores the vocal. I will leave no comment on that one, however, I will change it because CXu mentioned though kick sliders are fine, he feels it is too boring to follow the same rhythm again and again, so I will change the kick sliders to follow the vocal, other than vocal part, I will leave them as notes. ok everyone now will be happy, will update some changes together later. I still hold my opinion of not getting anything wrong, it is just I have been so depressed about no one try to allow the continuous emphasis on the strings track. as some one in the thread mentioned the kick slider for vocal beat emphasis is ok, I guess I will compromise a bit, and I hope the rest unrelated discussion should be over. they are not a problem mainly for the DQ, and the 3/8 slider is fine. spacing is not always under my consideration because they do not apply for the most time like something "I want you to increase the jump for every heavier beats and downbeat." no it does not work that way, it is good when the significant strong beat comes, other than that, it dont not help players for understanding the musicDoyak wrote:
I think 'plays fine' is not even an argument here. So let's put that aside. A full 1/2 jump map can still play fine no matter how the music is too.
1/4 kick sliders aren't quite same as 3/4 extended sliders because uhh... using 1/4 sliders sequentially means you make constant 1/4 sounds. So rather than 'extended' sounds, they rather provide distinct 1/4 sounds, only 1/2s being stronger. Like, if something can be called as 'extended' they should cover most of the sounds but in this case these sliders only cover the half of them, and the other half is just empty. The slider tails just end on 1/4 beats which are just as clear as the 1/2 beats.
So by using 1/4 sliders here you added some meaningless 1/4 beats which has far more clear and strong effect than representing the strings as slider body.
And an unrelated thing: 00:57:074 - 01:17:284 - I don't hear a drum here but you made it look like same as the other drums?
Topic Starter
Ok, I uploaded a new diff called Fix, I am introducing what is my rhythm decision in this kiai:
1. follow the drums as clicks
2. 1/4 sliders only used when the drums have the coverage of the vocal
3. represent the vocal with the slider body(including the kick sliders)
If you got other concerns about this fix diff, plz reply.
I also fixed a bit of spacing starting 01:47:442 - , try to make it a build up(less spacing to larger spacing) like iYiyo mentioned.
If no one has issues on the new diff, I will merge the branch into Ultra and try another round.
1. follow the drums as clicks
2. 1/4 sliders only used when the drums have the coverage of the vocal
3. represent the vocal with the slider body(including the kick sliders)
If you got other concerns about this fix diff, plz reply.
I also fixed a bit of spacing starting 01:47:442 - , try to make it a build up(less spacing to larger spacing) like iYiyo mentioned.
If no one has issues on the new diff, I will merge the branch into Ultra and try another round.
Looks better, but the main issue still remains to some degree outside the kiai. The kickslider were the one big issue, the extended sliders which don't follow anything properly in the song the other one. That's because i(1) t really doesn't follow anything in the song because there's no prolonged sound to follow, (2) vocals or instruments already had a beat on the previous red tick and you're neglecting those with an extened slider or (3) feels over the top and would play more natural if you don't use them here.
00:10:652 (3) - (3), find an agreement with battle here too.
00:21:547 (1) - (1)
00:12:547 (1) - (3)
00:23:442 (4) - (2). Would have to 00:25:337 - make this one extended as well if it were meant for them piano beats, but then it gets excessive again.
00:29:126 (1) - (2)
00:31:179 (1,2,3) - (3). Just compare it with 00:29:758 (1,2,1) - which is more intense in terms of volume. Vocals don't have such strong presence here as the e-guitar in the latter timestamp.
00:38:600 (4) - (2)
01:15:547 (1,2) - These could be circles only instead because right now starting kicksliders at this point makes little sense since the climax starts at 01:15:863 - first
I can live with the rest of them since they make sense to me, but the ones above should be revised again or give proper reasoning to.
There's also still the issue of lack of differentiation between calmer and louder parts of the track (same spacing/intensity throughout the map), as well as 01:47:442 - the final jumppart. I don't see any remarkable fixes concerning spacing there, it still plays the same as before. Also the snapping issue at 01:51:389 (1,2,3,4,5) - still remains, either 1/2 only or 3/4 slider, but don't go with a ministream over there.
Good luck o/
00:10:652 (3) - (3), find an agreement with battle here too.
00:21:547 (1) - (1)
00:12:547 (1) - (3)
00:23:442 (4) - (2). Would have to 00:25:337 - make this one extended as well if it were meant for them piano beats, but then it gets excessive again.
00:29:126 (1) - (2)
00:31:179 (1,2,3) - (3). Just compare it with 00:29:758 (1,2,1) - which is more intense in terms of volume. Vocals don't have such strong presence here as the e-guitar in the latter timestamp.
00:38:600 (4) - (2)
01:15:547 (1,2) - These could be circles only instead because right now starting kicksliders at this point makes little sense since the climax starts at 01:15:863 - first
I can live with the rest of them since they make sense to me, but the ones above should be revised again or give proper reasoning to.
There's also still the issue of lack of differentiation between calmer and louder parts of the track (same spacing/intensity throughout the map), as well as 01:47:442 - the final jumppart. I don't see any remarkable fixes concerning spacing there, it still plays the same as before. Also the snapping issue at 01:51:389 (1,2,3,4,5) - still remains, either 1/2 only or 3/4 slider, but don't go with a ministream over there.
Good luck o/
Topic Starter
update:I decide to fix some 3/4 sliders in 00:21:547 - 00:31:179 - sectionPho wrote:
Looks better, but the main issue still remains to some degree outside the kiai. The kickslider were the one big issue, the extended sliders which don't follow anything properly in the song the other one. That's because i(1) t really doesn't follow anything in the song because there's no prolonged sound to follow, (2) vocals or instruments already had a beat on the previous red tick and you're neglecting those with an extened slider or (3) feels over the top and would play more natural if you don't use them here.
00:10:652 (3) - (3), find an agreement with battle here too.
00:21:547 (1) - (1)
00:12:547 (1) - (3)
00:23:442 (4) - (2). Would have to 00:25:337 - make this one extended as well if it were meant for them piano beats, but then it gets excessive again.
00:29:126 (1) - (2)
00:31:179 (1,2,3) - (3). Just compare it with 00:29:758 (1,2,1) - which is more intense in terms of volume. Vocals don't have such strong presence here as the e-guitar in the latter timestamp.
00:38:600 (4) - (2)
01:15:547 (1,2) - These could be circles only instead because right now starting kicksliders at this point makes little sense since the climax starts at 01:15:863 - first
I can live with the rest of them since they make sense to me, but the ones above should be revised again or give proper reasoning to.
There's also still the issue of lack of differentiation between calmer and louder parts of the track (same spacing/intensity throughout the map), as well as 01:47:442 - the final jumppart. I
Good luck o/
now the new section only used 3/4 to highlight the vocal beat and the initial downbeat, I know the guitar is 1/2, but I try to make give highlight on those downbeats due to vocal and finish.
Still not content with the map, but the concept is clearer now and should be acceptable i guess. Still consider the following things:
- 01:51:389 (1,2,3,4,5) - not convinced that sweeps should be representable as ministreams since no clear beats are given on the blue ticks.
- Final jumppart looks slightly better now and until 01:54:231 (3) - feels like it could fit the song due to how you set proper motion resets on the two stacks. Everything after 01:54:705 - is still meh.
- 00:21:547 (1) - I never mentioned a thing about angles here, but there's no prolonging sound that'd warrant an extended slider. Given where the slider starts (00:21:547 - ), it's either meant to follow the piano beat/drums/finish - in which case a circle makes most sense here - or the e-guitar - in which case a 1/2 slider makes sense since it also has a note on the red tick at 00:21:705 - since nothing else is present in the song at this point. But rhythm-wise, the current slider doesn't fit into any of these types, so what exactly is it meant to follow in the music? You always seem to try to justify techniques like this with how it improves gameplay only, instead of how it's meant to represent the song properly.
Topic Starter
irc with Pho and since he agree the major issues are fixed I think we ccan have another try.Pho wrote:
Still not content with the map, but the concept is clearer now and should be acceptable i guess. Still consider the following things:Please keep this in mind when you layout your rhythm in future maps. Nice and fun gameplay is important for players, but this is a rhythm game at the end of the day.
- 01:51:389 (1,2,3,4,5) - not convinced that sweeps should be representable as ministreams since no clear beats are given on the blue ticks.
- Final jumppart looks slightly better now and until 01:54:231 (3) - feels like it could fit the song due to how you set proper motion resets on the two stacks. Everything after 01:54:705 - is still meh.
- 00:21:547 (1) - I never mentioned a thing about angles here, but there's no prolonging sound that'd warrant an extended slider. Given where the slider starts (00:21:547 - ), it's either meant to follow the piano beat/drums/finish - in which case a circle makes most sense here - or the e-guitar - in which case a 1/2 slider makes sense since it also has a note on the red tick at 00:21:705 - since nothing else is present in the song at this point. But rhythm-wise, the current slider doesn't fit into any of these types, so what exactly is it meant to follow in the music? You always seem to try to justify techniques like this with how it improves gameplay only, instead of how it's meant to represent the song properly.
00:10:652 (3) - it would be nice if you made this a 1/4 slider at this point now considering it would give more buffer room, unless you can explain why having it as a 3/8 is more helpful to the map than harmful, it barely makes a difference in play yes, but it makes a substantial amount of difference considering it makes the window to hit a 300 much greater and therefore more beneficial to a player
Topic Starter
In my opinion because of these three sliders are exactly the same snare sound, make the last one shorter will visually make this harder to understand. on the other hand, if you check the DS, these three sliders have the similar DS. therefore the last slider actually is not that confusing to play because the jump was smaller for players to read the next NCed stream. spacing and visual wise it was designed to hint the players for the intense rhythm. if I make it a 1/2, the sliderend end on the blue stick and the significant shorter length might confuse player.Battle wrote:
00:10:652 (3) - it would be nice if you made this a 1/4 slider at this point now considering it would give more buffer room, unless you can explain why having it as a 3/8 is more helpful to the map than harmful, it barely makes a difference in play yes, but it makes a substantial amount of difference considering it makes the window to hit a 300 much greater and therefore more beneficial to a player
Put it simple, people do map 1/8 on low bpm songs, because they believe double bpm to present the rhythm work for the song. here same idea, I believe at this point the intensity were enough to support the 1/8 snap choice(double bpm), and 1/4 is not enough to support the pattern well.
Topic Starter
Hey guys a good news, I made a MAD for this song based on official amv clip. Enjoy the video :^) I think mine is much better than the official one.
01:37:337 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - 这里跟吉他连续的1/2节奏比较好，没听出来特别值得extend到3/4的理由。01:37:968 (1,2,3) - 和紧凑的吉他比起来显得比较拖沓