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Which map is harder? (Aim)

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Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
Hey there
I need your general opinion about aim-heavy maps and which one is harder than the other.

Here's the list of maps (not ordered by difficulty):
Black Hole - Pluto (7odoa) [Challenge]
JO*STARS ~TOMMY, Coda, JIN~ - JoJo Sono Chi no Kioku~end of THE WORLD~ (Atsuro) [STAR PLATINUM]
Maffalda - pensamento tipico de esquerda caviar (Blue Dragon) [Gangsta]
Renard - Rainbow Dash Likes Girls (Stay Gay Pony Girl) (ztrot) [Holy Shit! It's Rainbow Dash!!]
Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (Blue Dragon) [Holy Shit! It's Airman!!]
The Quick Brown Fox - The Big Black (Blue Dragon) [WHO'S AFRAID OF THE BIG BLACK]
Yousei Teikoku - Senketsu no Chikai (Saten) [Insanity]

Please post your own list sorting maps in descending order from hardest (1) to easiest (7)
Think about it only no-mod
Here's a template for you:
1. 
2. 
3. 
4. 
5. 
6. 
7.

I'll be glad if you can also explain why and what part of the map makes it so!
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
1. Renard - Rainbow Dash Likes Girls (Stay Gay Pony Girl) (ztrot) [Holy Shit! It's Rainbow Dash!!]
Massive jumps, high bpm and AR9 makes this map extremely difficult to read and aim. It's pretty clear why no one has FC'd it yet.

2. The Quick Brown Fox - The Big Black (Blue Dragon) [WHO'S AFRAID OF THE BIG BLACK]
Tricky slider jumps and streams. Hard to read and very easy to break combo.

3. Black Hole - Pluto (7odoa) [Challenge]
Ar9 gives it a very high object density for its bpm, combined with the varying BPM and spacing makes it very hard to read and aim.

4. Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (Blue Dragon) [Holy Shit! It's Airman!!]
Pure aim map, very large jumps, and the difficult patterns at the end makes this map very choke heavy.

5. Yousei Teikoku - Senketsu no Chikai (Saten) [Insanity]
A bit like an easier version of airman, it has some large jump patterns spread through it.

6. JO*STARS ~TOMMY, Coda, JIN~ - JoJo Sono Chi no Kioku~end of THE WORLD~ (Atsuro) [STAR PLATINUM]
Probably more aim intensive than Senketsu, however its short length, large spacing but relatively easy patterns make it easier to retry and fc.

7. Maffalda - pensamento tipico de esquerda caviar (Blue Dragon) [Gangsta]
Big jumps, but way easier than the others on this list.
Last edited by B1rd , edited 1 time in total.
silmarilen
5,581 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
1. Renard - Rainbow Dash Likes Girls (Stay Gay Pony Girl) (ztrot) [Holy Shit! It's Rainbow Dash!!] basically an ar9 220bpm version of airman
2. Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (Blue Dragon) [Holy Shit! It's Airman!!] the map overall has crazy jumps and the 2 famous patterns really make this #2 for me
3. The Quick Brown Fox - The Big Black (Blue Dragon) [WHO'S AFRAID OF THE BIG BLACK] i personally think this map is heavily overrated by most people but still a really difficult map
4. Black Hole - Pluto (7odoa) [Challenge] the 270bpm is what makes this hard, but the jumps themself arent that big
5. JO*STARS ~TOMMY, Coda, JIN~ - JoJo Sono Chi no Kioku~end of THE WORLD~ (Atsuro) [STAR PLATINUM] 220bpm star patterns with increasing spacing are really difficult. the only reason it has so many scores is because it's short so easy to retry spam
6. Yousei Teikoku - Senketsu no Chikai (Saten) [Insanity] the pattern spam after the break is what makes this map, other than that it's just a jumpy map
7. Maffalda - pensamento tipico de esquerda caviar (Blue Dragon) [Gangsta] this map is really not on the same tier as the other maps here imo, there are maps that arent even known for their jumps that are harder to aim
Last edited by silmarilen , edited 1 time in total.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
I have never played the star platinum, so I'll make a top-6

1.) Renard - Rainbow Dash Likes Girls - The jumps are insane
2.) Blackhole - Pluto - The BPM Switch to eventually 130 bpm is also hard to singletap, but the jumps are just madness
3.) TQBF - The Big Black - Mostly the 1/4 sliders (360 BPM) and the final streams make this hard. The 1/2 sliders aren't that bad though
4.) Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman - Fullscreen jumps at quite high BPM
5.) Yousei Teikoku - Senketsu no Chikai (quite easy, for being 6.4*) - The only challenging parts are the polygonals
6.) Maffalda - Pensamento tipico de esquerda caviar - This is just easy, even playable with DT
Last edited by Bara- , edited 1 time in total.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
1. Renard - Rainbow Dash Likes Girls (Stay Gay Pony Girl) (ztrot) [Holy Shit! It's Rainbow Dash!!]
Not even Cookiezi ever full comboed this map because the jumps are too big and stupid. Yeah.

2. Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (Blue Dragon) [Holy Shit! It's Airman!!]
Big, jumpy and intense, everyone knows this guy!

3. Black Hole - Pluto (7odoa) [Challenge]
Basically what silm said, this is really hard because you have to singletap super fast on various speeds of jump and it's pretty crazy.

4. The Quick Brown Fox - The Big Black (Blue Dragon) [WHO'S AFRAID OF THE BIG BLACK]
It's hard to aim, sure, but the main difficulty here is actually reading, believe it or not - slider bodies cluttering the screen make it visually challenging to hit everything. Also the 1/8 slider things suck and that has nothing to do with aim.

5. JO*STARS ~TOMMY, Coda, JIN~ - JoJo Sono Chi no Kioku~end of THE WORLD~ (Atsuro) [STAR PLATINUM]
Those stars are nuts, bro. But then again, they're the only pattern on this list I've actually hit on nomod, so I don't know man.

6. Yousei Teikoku - Senketsu no Chikai (Saten) [Insanity]
The slowest and easiest map on this list, I'm only putting it above gangsta because it's a lot longer (and the jump sections are longer too) and your aim consistency is challenged.

7. Maffalda - pensamento tipico de esquerda caviar (Blue Dragon) [Gangsta]
There are intense fullscreen jumps here, but the relatively low bpm makes them a lot simpler than the other maps on this list.
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil
Atama no Taisou is missing from the list, it would be up there right after Rainbow Dash.

But from the list you gave:

1 - Rainbow Dash (this map is just too much)
2 - Pluto (harder to FC than Airman even being shorter)
3 - Airman (It's just hard, similar patterns to Rainbow Dash, but higher AR and lower BPM makes it easier)
4 - Big Black (Too easy to miss something)
5 - Sono Chi no Kioku (short, but hard)
6 - Senketsu no Chikai (only the stars after the break are actually hard)
7 - gangsta (easier than all above)
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
I and Kert are trying to figure out the aim component of this right now. We are aware that higher AR with big jump and high BPM would make the map hard, but there there things to consider other than those 3 factors. We are trying to disect the gameplay elements, so everything else will be considered later. Tapping and AR aside, if you can do the map with the relax mod at your conformable AR, which maps would be harder and why? Is it distance of the jumps, the speed of the jumps, the angle, or something else?
ZenithPhantasm
ZenithPhantasm
No Atama no Taisou?!?
sottovoce
sottovoce

abraker wrote:

I and Kert are trying to figure out the aim component of this right now. We are aware that higher AR with big jump and high BPM would make the map hard, but there there things to consider other than those 3 factors. We are trying to disect the gameplay elements, so everything else will be considered later. Tapping and AR aside, if you can do the map with the relax mod at your conformable AR, which maps would be harder and why? Is it distance of the jumps, the speed of the jumps, the angle, or something else?
Conventional logic says that higher AR makes these maps easier, not harder.
Relax is a COMPLETELY different game - you might as well be talking about comparing osu!mania and osu!standard.

As for the actual difficulty of the maps you can refer to the above posters that have a bit more of a clue than I do.
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
I Give Up
1. Renard - Rainbow Dash Likes Girls (Stay Gay Pony Girl) (ztrot) [Holy Shit! It's Rainbow Dash!!] 220bpm full screen jumps

2. The Quick Brown Fox - The Big Black (Blue Dragon) [WHO'S AFRAID OF THE BIG BLACK] Tornado sliders, spaced stream at end

3. Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (Blue Dragon) [Holy Shit! It's Airman!!] 200bpm full screen jumps

4. Black Hole - Pluto (7odoa) [Challenge]

5. Yousei Teikoku - Senketsu no Chikai (Saten) [Insanity]

6. JO*STARS ~TOMMY, Coda, JIN~ - JoJo Sono Chi no Kioku~end of THE WORLD~ (Atsuro) [STAR PLATINUM]

7. Maffalda - pensamento tipico de esquerda caviar (Blue Dragon) [Gangsta]
Yuudachi-kun
5,435 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
I don't know if it's possible for me to give these an accurate ranking because maps like rainbow dash and senketsu no chikai are ar9. Should the reading aspect of them being ar9 and not 9.5+ affect how hard they are to aim?
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert

Khelly wrote:

I don't know if it's possible for me to give these an accurate ranking because maps like rainbow dash and senketsu no chikai are ar9. Should the reading aspect of them being ar9 and not 9.5+ affect how hard they are to aim?
Of course it affects the playability. But the plan is to split raw aim difficulty and reading difficulty into 2 different things.
I chose these maps because they are mostly okayish to read, so the main difficulty goes from distance or speed(time interval between 2 objects) of the jumps.
Atama wasn't included since it has those lovely square patterns and currently no one knows how to rate them since the distance is usually smaller then say... airman jumps but the pattern is still harder. Though the difficulty of the squares there may come from the fact that circles overlap each other during that section. Who knows
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
For fun, I tried all 6 maps I rated with DT EZ RX
Worst play (in accuracy) was (as expected) Rainbow Dash (±57%)
Then came Pluto (±60%)
Big Black (±62%)
Airman (±71%) (So high O.o)
Maffalda (±74%)
Senketsu (±79%) (Probably so high because of the streams which are insta 300)

I'll do them later with just RX, but I though this could be a nice addition :)
Yuudachi-kun
5,435 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun 
1. Renard - Rainbow Dash Likes Girls (Stay Gay Pony Girl) (ztrot)
2. The Quick Brown Fox - The Big Black (Blue Dragon) 
3. Black Hole - Pluto (7odoa)
4. Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (Blue Dragon) 
5. JO*STARS ~TOMMY, Coda, JIN~ - JoJo Sono Chi no Kioku~end of THE WORLD~ (Atsuro) 
6. Yousei Teikoku - Senketsu no Chikai (Saten) 
7. Maffalda - pensamento tipico de esquerda caviar (Blue Dragon)

I think the only two groups up for debate with me are between #1 #2 and #3 #4.

I decided to put pluto > Airman because of the bpm changes and how much it speeds up.
Rickput
93 posts
Joined December 2013
Rickput 
1. Renard - Rainbow Dash Likes Girls (Stay Gay Pony Girl) (ztrot)
2. Black Hole - Pluto (7odoa)
3. Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (Blue Dragon)
4. The Quick Brown Fox - The Big Black (Blue Dragon)
5. JO*STARS ~TOMMY, Coda, JIN~ - JoJo Sono Chi no Kioku~end of THE WORLD~ (Atsuro) 
6. Yousei Teikoku - Senketsu no Chikai (Saten) 
7. Maffalda - pensamento tipico de esquerda caviar (Blue Dragon)

pretty simple, seems everyone has generally the same consensus.

it would have been a bit more interesting if gangsta was rated with DT and have senketsu no chikai replaced with something like atama no taisou.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
Okay here's what chart I managed to do with my program with a bit larger set of maps

Circle size is considered only a little, because I want small circle difficulty to be a separate thing. So please ignore this
Reading difficulty isn't considered too
Comments? Suggestions?
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz
Hanairo isn't that bad for aiming until the difficulty spike towards the end imo. Idk, maybe that's enough to justify it's score on this. The spacing and curvature of a lot of the streams is pretty simple to follow. Just my 2 cents.

Edit: I guess food for thought - Is a map with a largely uniform difficulty easier or harder than a map with a large difficulty spike?
E m i
E m i
infinite of nuclear fusion, the ultimate farm map.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
But circle size doesn't become a separate thing just because you want it to.
Better make a spread of maps with similar circle size to circumvent this problem.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
Edit: I guess food for thought - Is a map with a largely uniform difficulty easier or harder than a map with a large difficulty spike?
That largely depends. There are 2 ways ways I can think of to rate such maps correctly:
  • 1) Separate ratings by how difficult it is to get the letter ranking
    2) Average the maps' difficulty peaks based on a weighting system pp uses.
I have already tried doing it the 2nd way, and yielded results similar to this:
SPOILER
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

abraker wrote:

Edit: I guess food for thought - Is a map with a largely uniform difficulty easier or harder than a map with a large difficulty spike?
That largely depends. There are 2 ways ways I can think of to rate such maps correctly:
  • 1) Separate ratings by how difficult it is to get the letter ranking
    2) Average the maps' difficulty peaks based on a weighting system pp uses.
I have already tried doing it the 2nd way, and yielded results similar to this:
SPOILER
Letter rankings are irrelevant. You can get an A with non-trivial misses on most maps if you're an accurate player. Evaluation would likely have to be done piecewise with a nonlinear weighting for difficulty if we are to work under the assumption that uniform difficulty and easier difficulty with spikes are actually of 2 different difficulties despite mapping to the same average difficulty neighborhood.
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
I Give Up
I don't know how players do it. The hardest map on there that I can fc is only lagomorphic v_v
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

chainpullz wrote:

Letter rankings are irrelevant.
Score based then?
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

abraker wrote:

chainpullz wrote:

Letter rankings are irrelevant.
Score based then?
Score isn't uniform across all maps.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

chainpullz wrote:

Score isn't uniform across all maps.
Then it will have to be measured in terms of how hard it is to get to point t, where t is a point in time on the map. That means that my second approach by averaging weights is more reasonable.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

abraker wrote:

chainpullz wrote:

Score isn't uniform across all maps.
Then it will have to be measured in terms of how hard it is to get to point t, where t is a point in time on the map. That means that my second approach by averaging weights is more reasonable.
Let A be a long easy to aim section, and B a short difficulty spike. Is it just as easy to "get to the end of" AB as it is BA? Personally I think there is a subtle difference even in this simple unrealistic example. Better yet, consider ABC vs BAD where C and D are just arbitrary song endings and we are only talking about "getting to the end of" the A/B combinations. There are a lot of psychological triggers that are hard to really account for since they vary from person to person.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

chainpullz wrote:

There are a lot of psychological triggers that are hard to really account for since they vary from person to person.
Quite right, in fact difficulty only accounts a perfect play. That is, it doesn't account random chokes. While I agree that method doesn't provide the complete picture, it's still better than what we can come up with, and be all means please come up with something better. The difficulty of a map is just an index, and that index can be interpreted as a probability to do poorly on a map. However, that conversion from difficulty rating to chance of doing poorly is very subjective and up to the player to decide. Difficulty makes a lot more sense when viewed from a collective of players instead of the individual. When viewed from a collective, we can universally agree on stuff such as which map is harder (this thread's point).
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
This is redundant. You can't measure the 'pure aim' value of maps because terms like 'aim' and 'reading' and 'speed' are all vague concepts, interconnected and without any clear definitions. If you want to measure the aiming difficult of maps minus 'reading' difficult and difficulty from hard patterns then all you need to do is look at the star rating.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert

B1rd wrote:

This is redundant. You can't measure the 'pure aim' value of maps because terms like 'aim' and 'reading' and 'speed' are all vague concepts, interconnected and without any clear definitions. If you want to measure the aiming difficult of maps minus 'reading' difficult and difficulty from hard patterns then all you need to do is look at the star rating.
Not quite. Star rating also takes streams and everything tap related too.
Correct me in case I didn't understand the point of your post right
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd

Kert wrote:

Not quite. Star rating also takes streams and everything tap related too.
Correct me in case I didn't understand the point of your post right
Then just delete the streams. It doesn't take a genius to figure out if the star rating comes from jumps or streams.
E m i
E m i

Kert wrote:

B1rd wrote:

This is redundant. You can't measure the 'pure aim' value of maps because terms like 'aim' and 'reading' and 'speed' are all vague concepts, interconnected and without any clear definitions. If you want to measure the aiming difficult of maps minus 'reading' difficult and difficulty from hard patterns then all you need to do is look at the star rating.
Not quite. Star rating also takes streams and everything tap related too.
Correct me in case I didn't understand the point of your post right
That and it does not take angles into account either (compare 400bpm square jumps with the circles touching each other to a 200bpm stream)
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert

B1rd wrote:

Then just delete the streams. It doesn't take a genius to figure out if the star rating comes from jumps or streams.
You can't tell if a heavy only-aim map is harder at aim than mediocre-aim-stream one by looking at star ratings

Momiji wrote:

That and it does not take angles into account either (compare 400bpm square jumps with the circles touching each other to a 200bpm stream)
The angle influence is considered to some extent in the last calculation I made btw.
felicitousname
27 posts
Joined May 2014
felicitousname
Honestly, if this is an attempt to improve PP, I don't think it's gonna work. The best approach would likely be a machine learning based approach. We'd need to learn a function that calculates PP by beatmap.
Hakj3r
30 posts
Joined August 2012
Hakj3r
felicitousname: It's not about improving pp algoritm. Kert is making an alternative way of ranking players skills. Go there: osuskills.tk

In my opinion, to mark aim the algoritm would need to check:
-basic things, like CS, BPM;
-in map placement of elements;
-in map timings.
-and it would need to know player reading skills.
Rest of things is unneeded.

I'm not a guy who can make complicated formulas, so I won't try come up with one. But for what is needed to make one... Well, it's here, right?
Yuudachi-kun
5,435 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
This thread is old and done for and you should feel bad
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