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Akiyama Uni - Ningyou Saiban

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Natsu
spread between Hard and Lunatic is really huge tbh, I'd suggest adding another diff between them, or nerfing your actual lunatic diff.
Okoratu
ehh this suddenly blows up but LKs is tagged cuz he timed the map?

idk i don't think that checks out to be honest
riffy

Natsu wrote:

spread between Hard and Lunatic is really huge tbh, I'd suggest adding another diff between them, or nerfing your actual lunatic diff.
Looks like we have a good chance to split two different ways of mapping the Lunatic difficulty and get two independent diff, providing better variety of styles and fixing the spread!
Chaoslitz
So something would be perfect like a normal Hard diff -> a new Insane -> and Lunatic with high sv I guess?
Yuii-

Chaoslitz wrote:

So something would be perfect like a normal Hard diff -> a new Insane -> and Lunatic with high sv I guess?
Exactly. For some reason Hard's SR is high for no reason because note density-wise is really low, compared to Lunatic. Something like another Insane mapped with some SV changes as well as adding a considerable amount of objects in order to balance the gap between Hard-Lunatic would be fine.
plsleaf
It's not inconsistent if it's consistently "inconsistent".
Endaris
After reading the drama about the 2nd Kiai a bit...

Lunatic:

First of all I genuinely disagree with Bakari that you can't vary your style within one difficulty especially if the song itself is looped in some way.
The relatively high SV in the second part of the song looks good at some spots and not so good at others.
A main problem with the high SV in contrast to the first part is that the circle size is relatively small with CS5. High SV is mostly used to transmit a feeling via the swift cursormovement. Small sliderpaths have a very low tolerance and therefore the player cannot focus on going along with the song, instead he has to care about following the sliderpath accurately which is not cool. That's the biggest conflict between the two parts from my point of view.
Anyway, let's get to actual modding.

Personally I dislike this flowpattern as it favors looks over playability: 01:21:823 (4,5,6) - 01:33:990 (4,5,6) -
In comparison 01:20:302 (4,5,6) - plays a lot more smooth. If you want to stick to a circular shaped slider you could consider a flow like this: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/4443608

You're also inconsistent with your patterning regarding the spacing for the first three notes here: 01:15:131 (1,2,3) -
In this case they're very close together even though the sound on the second circle would suggest a bigger spacing in my mind like done here: 01:36:424 (1,2,3) -
But you also got spots where the spacing is low first and then very big to the 3 as here: 01:31:861 (1,2,3) -
I think you have to be more sharp and consistent about how these 3 circles should relate to each other as they represent the same characteristic pattern performed by piano+bass every single time.
For comparison:
When this part appears for the first time ( 00:13:686 - till 00:38:021 - ) you're clearly paying a lot of attention to always have 1 -> 2 a big spacing and 2 -> 3 a lower one with the only slight exceptions being 00:25:853 (1,2,3) - and 00:28:895 (1,2,3) - that feel a bit odd due to how you have to turn directions but you're still clearly applying the concept. Consider changing these two a bit while you're at it.

01:26:690 (5,6,7) - 01:38:858 (5,6,7) - This type of pattern feels pretty uncomfortable to play too. I think it would play a lot more comfortably if the edges of the hitcircles would touch each other, right now this is something like a difficulty spike. There's also a good reason to reduce the spacing here imo:
Wood and piano are playing on 01:38:552 - 01:38:857 - 01:39:161 - so it would be natural to keep the emphasis on them as you're following them closely throughout this section. The drumpattern is more of an extra and it would be cool if 01:39:161 - got an extra boost of emphasis by another acceleration after slowing down before.

Aside from these things the part from break till Kiai is pretty cool.

What really bugs me in the Kiai are some of these sliders:
01:40:580 (4) -
They contribute about nothing. Efficiently played they are kicksliders that don't lead anywhere. On a map with a conception that is entirely based on forcing a certain motion onto the player this is pretty bad. Again, the concept you use is stop-and-go, hence all the spaced stacks you use in other places to make the player stop. I would very much prefer to see most of these mapped as doubles as the fast SV gives them more attention than deserved in most places(or rather shifts the attention extremely towards the sliderstart over the sliderend for no particular reason).

As far as I can see you also use a long and rather straight slider for the strong/long sound done by the wind instruments that play on every downbeat. Reference: 01:41:594 (2) - 01:46:157 (2) - 01:47:678 (2) - 01:50:720 (2) - 01:52:241 (2) - etc.
In this context 01:43:115 (2,3) - doesn't play well. Why? The curved slider at first doesn't even require the player to move the cursor at all, making this slider very weak compared to the others and on top of it he is even actively discouraged to follow the slider by the following circles as he has to move into a different direction to go for it. It pretty much breaks your concept of sliderusage.
01:49:199 (2,3) - this is similar but still a lot less bad as the next circle suggests following the slider at least a bit.

01:59:846 (2) - This is lame considering the SV. The sweetspot to just hold that slider down is extremely narrow and it is unreasonable to think that a player could properly follow through considering the direction turns. It's just extremely uncomfortable to play and doesn't do anything to make the song experienceable. The first thing that comes to my mind is replacing this entire section with a spinner:
01:59:846 (2,1,2,3,4,5,6,1) -
A spinner is not really less interesting than a repeatslider and it's a lead-up to the slowdown so it fits nicely.

That's it from my side.
Good luck with your map and thanks for mapping this really cool music :)
Karen
Please don't judge map's difficulty from SV or SR, get your tablet or mouse, play it.
Although the spread is a bit questionable exactly lol
ac8129464363
shame about extra sco, that was a cool map lol
Krfawy
As long as the beginning of the Lunatic map and the first kiai time are legible with just AR8.6, it really hurts when people have to keep on reading the clusters like 01:21:215 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - here. I know, this is a rhythm game and the music is followed with doable patterns, but using AR8.8-9.0 would help people read the clusters because now they are very hardcore to read and follow if you have to strain that much especially when it's a huge difference when you don't really have to try to read that much in the Hard difficulty because the patterns are way clearer.

And could you consider using a whistle on the very end or on the very start on those sliders in Normal and Hard diffs so it's easier to follow them when there is such a piano sound? You know, just making it more obvious and stressed while playing. 01:02:542 (1) - 02:03:988 (1) -

Nice Normal difficulty, I like it. o/
Luel Roseline
RIP Extra
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings

Okoratu wrote:

if i was a player trying to go through your spread and would be able to do hard fairly decently at like 98% or something
and then started playing Lunatic it would wreck me so hard

i think especially in 01:15:130 - onwards spread between hard and insane is considerably broken
what do you think? you've played hard diff's later part, and you shall ready for the similar style in lunatic if you really did that. otherwise the hard diff is not that well impressed with it's spread and patterns, or maybe your playing skill is not ready for lunatic level maps imo.

IamKwaN wrote:

Also, would you mind providing an official reference for the romanisation of the title?

EDIT: I cannot find any official translated title for the song, so please stick with the normal romanisation, "Ningyou Saiban". ok, i'll ignore the additional msg and follow the game itself.

Also, for the artist, is it ZUN instead? if you have the screenshot of the eighth song from the game, please post it here! you've given the pic above (bottom right "U2"), ZUN is just original composer, not the prime arranger.
if you need original album's pic as evidence, here you are:

Bakari wrote:

So, you are ignoring music and creating an inconsistency in the map structure with no actual reason within the song itself? Why didn't you just create two independent difficulties as this would provide a good example of various mapping possibilities and let players play whatever way they prefer instead of forcing them to play both dtyles in one diff?

The thing is that even though this is playable, it is not suppoted by the song, I believe. There is absolutely nothing in the song that would suggest a radical change of the mapping style, making this map ignore the nature of the track.

how the song have not showed the notice... like that break in the middle of the song? if that's so called inconsistent then we should make all maps' all patterns in same consistent style, like if the pitch shifting of the melody is same then we need to do exact consistent pattern, otherwise it's just inconsistent.

Natsu wrote:

spread between Hard and Lunatic is really huge tbh, I'd suggest adding another diff between them, or nerfing your actual lunatic diff.
Looks like we have a good chance to split two different ways of mapping the Lunatic difficulty and get two independent diff, providing better variety of styles and fixing the spread!

bakari i know what you mean, but i'm telling that these two parts are all in same difficulty level but only in one diff. should i mix these to parts into same kiai to make them "consistent"? then i don't see differences between mine.

Yuii- wrote:

Remove "Scorpiour" from tags I guess. nope.

Natsu wrote:

spread between Hard and Lunatic is really huge tbh, I'd suggest adding another diff between them, or nerfing your actual lunatic diff. hard is not that easy tbh, and lunatic is not that lunatic.

Okoratu wrote:

ehh this suddenly blows up but LKs is tagged cuz he timed the map?

idk i don't think that checks out to be honest idk if this is good enough, after 3 bns' check. if you have additional advise it'll be welcomed anytime. to me the timing is fine thou.

Endaris wrote:

After reading the drama about the 2nd Kiai a bit...

Lunatic:

First of all I genuinely disagree with Bakari that you can't vary your style within one difficulty especially if the song itself is looped in some way.
The relatively high SV in the second part of the song looks good at some spots and not so good at others.
A main problem with the high SV in contrast to the first part is that the circle size is relatively small with CS5. High SV is mostly used to transmit a feeling via the swift cursormovement. Small sliderpaths have a very low tolerance and therefore the player cannot focus on going along with the song, instead he has to care about following the sliderpath accurately which is not cool. That's the biggest conflict between the two parts from my point of view. true.
Anyway, let's get to actual modding.

Personally I dislike this flowpattern as it favors looks over playability: 01:21:823 (4,5,6) - 01:33:990 (4,5,6) -
In comparison 01:20:302 (4,5,6) - plays a lot more smooth. If you want to stick to a circular shaped slider you could consider a flow like this: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/4443608 after long time thinking i just keep this pattern as it is now. the flow just showing you control your cursor pausing aiming right, the flow is also set into an anti style to help you do that.

You're also inconsistent with your patterning regarding the spacing for the first three notes here: 01:15:131 (1,2,3) -
In this case they're very close together even though the sound on the second circle would suggest a bigger spacing in my mind like done here: 01:36:424 (1,2,3) -
But you also got spots where the spacing is low first and then very big to the 3 as here: 01:31:861 (1,2,3) -
I think you have to be more sharp and consistent about how these 3 circles should relate to each other as they represent the same characteristic pattern performed by piano+bass every single time. true. thou about the bass part, it's consistently increasing the pitch in its track, so i just follow that by distance shifting, which is not perfectly done in the current diff.
For comparison:
When this part appears for the first time ( 00:13:686 - till 00:38:021 - ) you're clearly paying a lot of attention to always have 1 -> 2 a big spacing and 2 -> 3 a lower one with the only slight exceptions being 00:25:853 (1,2,3) - and 00:28:895 (1,2,3) - that feel a bit odd due to how you have to turn directions but you're still clearly applying the concept. Consider changing these two a bit while you're at it.

01:26:690 (5,6,7) - 01:38:858 (5,6,7) - This type of pattern feels pretty uncomfortable to play too. I think it would play a lot more comfortably if the edges of the hitcircles would touch each other, right now this is something like a difficulty spike. There's also a good reason to reduce the spacing here imo:
Wood and piano are playing on 01:38:552 - 01:38:857 - 01:39:161 - so it would be natural to keep the emphasis on them as you're following them closely throughout this section. The drumpattern is more of an extra and it would be cool if 01:39:161 - got an extra boost of emphasis by another acceleration after slowing down before. good, maybe you really looked into the map deep. fixed the whole maps' patterns like these, arranged all of them into 2 consistent styles in each part.

Aside from these things the part from break till Kiai is pretty cool.

What really bugs me in the Kiai are some of these sliders:
01:40:580 (4) -
They contribute about nothing. Efficiently played they are kicksliders that don't lead anywhere. On a map with a conception that is entirely based on forcing a certain motion onto the player this is pretty bad. Again, the concept you use is stop-and-go, hence all the spaced stacks you use in other places to make the player stop. I would very much prefer to see most of these mapped as doubles as the fast SV gives them more attention than deserved in most places(or rather shifts the attention extremely towards the sliderstart over the sliderend for no particular reason). lol, then i have to say you missed the bass track, which this slider is following.

As far as I can see you also use a long and rather straight slider for the strong/long sound done by the wind instruments that play on every downbeat. Reference: 01:41:594 (2) - 01:46:157 (2) - 01:47:678 (2) - 01:50:720 (2) - 01:52:241 (2) - etc.
In this context 01:43:115 (2,3) - doesn't play well. Why? The curved slider at first doesn't even require the player to move the cursor at all, making this slider very weak compared to the others and on top of it he is even actively discouraged to follow the slider by the following circles as he has to move into a different direction to go for it. It pretty much breaks your concept of sliderusage.
01:49:199 (2,3) - this is similar but still a lot less bad as the next circle suggests following the slider at least a bit. actually if you are playing this map for more times, you'll find you will stack your aiming at sliders like this. why follow the slider ball and track? i exactly require players stack their aiming and listen to the rhythm carefully to decide when to move cursor to the next obj, and it works pretty well.

01:59:846 (2) - This is lame considering the SV. The sweetspot to just hold that slider down is extremely narrow and it is unreasonable to think that a player could properly follow through considering the direction turns. It's just extremely uncomfortable to play and doesn't do anything to make the song experienceable. The first thing that comes to my mind is replacing this entire section with a spinner:
01:59:846 (2,1,2,3,4,5,6,1) -
A spinner is not really less interesting than a repeatslider and it's a lead-up to the slowdown so it fits nicely. well, actually this is a really common pattern and appeared even 4 years ago, just take it easy, lots of players already be able to catch up with patterns like this.

That's it from my side.
Good luck with your map and thanks for mapping this really cool music :)

Karen wrote:

Please don't judge map's difficulty from SV or SR, get your tablet or mouse, play it.
Although the spread is a bit questionable exactly lol the spread is already complete by the current diffs.

deetz wrote:

shame about extra sco, that was a cool map lol i just did the least compromise to community, we can't move too much steps once, next time maybe :3

Krfawy wrote:

As long as the beginning of the Lunatic map and the first kiai time are legible with just AR8.6, it really hurts when people have to keep on reading the clusters like 01:21:215 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - here. I know, this is a rhythm game and the music is followed with doable patterns, but using AR8.8-9.0 would help people read the clusters because now they are very hardcore to read and follow if you have to strain that much especially when it's a huge difference when you don't really have to try to read that much in the Hard difficulty because the patterns are way clearer. for it's a cs5 map, ar8.6 is already enough to fit. long sliders even helped with the reading by giving free time after tapping tick.

And could you consider using a whistle on the very end or on the very start on those sliders in Normal and Hard diffs so it's easier to follow them when there is such a piano sound? You know, just making it more obvious and stressed while playing. 01:02:542 (1) - 02:03:988 (1) - ok, changed. but i just add a hs at the head. also changed 00:01:113 (1) -'s as well.

Nice Normal difficulty, I like it. o/
thanks for modding!
IamKwaN
Arranger instead of the composer as the artist? Isn't the prime rhythm composed by the composer instead of arranger instead? hmm..
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings

IamKwaN wrote:

Arranger instead of the composer as the artist? hmm..

except the original game's bgms a made by ZUN, all other touhou songs are made by various of arrangers (3L, amane, halozy, dark phoenix, whatever etc.)

if this is an issue, then from now on, all touhou maps should give "ZUN" as artist? that's not that appropriate imo...
IamKwaN
oh you're right
Okoratu
why are you insisting on tags of people who didn't actually contribute to the set (or did they, just say so)?

and i can play both hard and lunatic very well, you dodged my argument by saying i can't play the game.

lunatic doubles the amount of stuff you have to click from hard and especially the "harder part" of hard consists motly out of 1/1 and really long sliders while lunatic is bombarding you with really fast sliders.

of course youre going to expect that if you can do hard decently to have some chance of passing lunatic too.
and at this point that part in lunatic will really wreck you
IamKwaN
ayy i forgot to tell you to change the artist to 'U2' as shown in the CD booklet.
riffy
how the song have not showed the notice... like that break in the middle of the song? if that's so called inconsistent then we should make all maps' all patterns in same consistent style, like if the pitch shifting of the melody is same then we need to do exact consistent pattern, otherwise it's just inconsistent.
How exactly does the break warn us about the radical change of the mapping style? Yes, we should keep consistent styles throughout all maps we make, there is absolutely nothing wrong with sticking to your own style and not altering it unless the song requires you to.

bakari i know what you mean, but i'm telling that these two parts are all in same difficulty level but only in one diff. should i mix these to parts into same kiai to make them "consistent"? then i don't see differences between mine.
You should make two independent diffs, I believe. One would use slowdown and high SV jmps, other high velocity and low DS. This will resolve the conflict of styles, make the mapset more consistent and reasonable and provide better gameplay experience for everybody. The fact that those two kiais are on approximately the same difficulty level doesn't change much. The difference in styles is way too big, if you ask me.
Swiftrax
Hello Hollow Wings.

x2 Velocity is not needed in Lunatic.
The song's intensity doesn't show the need for that speed of slider.

Lunatic:

01:26:690 (5,6) - Weirdly timed, doesn't fit, it seems this timing works better: http://puu.sh/n02x2/5f09a2fc18.jpg
01:40:580 (4) - This is a weird slider for this type of song, and it seems out of place, also the timing for it is really odd. The other kiai section is more filled up, and this one has random sudden stops in comparison.
01:57:412 (5) - Personal feel: This slider looks awkwardly placed.., doesn't have to be changed, but please consider.
01:59:846 (2) - Seems really lazily prolonged, would put something else in here to not have a unusually long reverse slider.

The other 2 difficulties seem fine, it's more or less nit-picky stuff with Lunatic.
If you don't want extra difficulties in between, consider lessening SV and other stuff in Lunatic to prevent extra difficuties to be added.
If you were to add a difficulty, it might have to be a Hyper of some sort.

Nice map Hollow Wings, good luck with the ranking!
8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
plsleaf
Just a few things,

In all difficulties:
Maybe add a spinner starting at 02:04:393 and ending at 02:07:435?

In Normal and Hard:
Add whistles on the sliderheads of 00:01:113 (1) and 01:02:542 (1) and 02:03:988 (1) to make consistent with the Lunatic difficulty.

In Lunatic:
Maybe change 01:56:195 (5,6) a little to keep it consistent with the way you mapped it at 01:43:318?
maybe something like this?


I did control+g on the sliders and tried to move 01:56:195 (5) to match 01:55:485 (3)

I don't know if the way I worded that makes sense.
Also I think Okoratu meant that LKs shouldn't be tagged, not that the timing was wrong
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings

[ TPorter ] wrote:

Hello Hollow Wings.

x2 Velocity is not needed in Lunatic.
The song's intensity doesn't show the need for that speed of slider. i don't think so.

Lunatic:

01:26:690 (5,6) - Weirdly timed, doesn't fit, it seems this timing works better: http://puu.sh/n02x2/5f09a2fc18.jpg i think the current timing is fine. well if you are caring about the stuff, check out the new version.
01:40:580 (4) - This is a weird slider for this type of song, and it seems out of place, also the timing for it is really odd. The other kiai section is more filled up, and this one has random sudden stops in comparison.
01:57:412 (5) - Personal feel: This slider looks awkwardly placed.., doesn't have to be changed, but please consider.
01:59:846 (2) - Seems really lazily prolonged, would put something else in here to not have a unusually long reverse slider.

The other 2 difficulties seem fine, it's more or less nit-picky stuff with Lunatic.
If you don't want extra difficulties in between, consider lessening SV and other stuff in Lunatic to prevent extra difficuties to be added.
If you were to add a difficulty, it might have to be a Hyper of some sort.

Nice map Hollow Wings, good luck with the ranking!
8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
to bakari: mapset style issue is some kind of acceptable, thou i still think a song with "consistent style" is not a must do and various style for same rhythm is ok, actually all mappers are doing that, but not in that range of shifting in patterns. now i cut the mp3 file into half one and make the map an 8-diff-set one, hope the meta stuff is ok to all of community guidelines.

to iamkwan: i can accept changing artist into "U2" cuz akiyama uni used that nick name in his early creation phase. also add "akiyama uni" into tags for they are the absolute same arranger.

new mapset: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/421061
everyone leave this version away, i'll working on the new one.
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