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[Rule change] Loosen the difficulty requirements

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Total Posts
16
Sea_Food
484 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Sea_Food
The mapset must have a well-designed spread of difficulties, containing at least an Easy or a Normal difficulty. This is so that players of all levels of experience are able to enjoy maps of the songs they love.
Okay I really dont understand why every beatmap set should have easy difficulties, but I guess its not a big issue as those are so fast to map and dont take much time from making real maps. But I do think that some changes should be made.

-If the song you are mapping already has a ranked beatmap set, all of its difficulties count towards your difficulty requirements aswell

So what that means is that if there is a song that has difficulties mapped from the bottom to 6star, you would be allowed to map the song doing only a difficulty of 7.5stars or anything below that.

Kinda like adding a quest difficulty. Makes sense right?
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu
no doesn't make sense, tbh that is just laziness, each map need a well made spread, is not that hard! Also take in mind what new players see when they download beatmaps is: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmaplist You want it to be full of 7* maps only? no right. Also ¨real maps¨ even an Easy diff is a real map that can be enjoyed for many people as well, tbh there aren't many players capable of 7*.. casual > pro, that's why easiest difficulties are important at any map.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Sea_Food wrote:

Okay I really dont understand why every beatmap set should have easy difficulties

Rule wrote:

...containing at least an Easy or a Normal difficulty.
Depending on the case Easy never were a must-have if certain requirements are fullfilled.

Sea_Food wrote:

but I guess its not a big issue as those are so fast to map and dont take much time from making real maps.
Mapping isn't hard, mapping something good is. And making a crappy easy difficulty for spread's sake isn't as senseful as leaving out an easy difficulty. Why bothering about if you can't make one (or at least ask someone to do a Easy GD).


Sea_Food wrote:

So what that means is that if there is a song that has difficulties mapped from the bottom to 6star, you would be allowed to map the song doing only a difficulty of 7.5stars or anything below that.

Kinda like adding a quest difficulty. Makes sense right?
Definitely no. People will just wait for others to get their full spread mapsets ranked to follow with their single-difficulty-sets because they're lazy to put effort in their work. People should stop being that minimalistic nowadays.

It also leaves room open for more silly requests, e.g. if there is a full version of a song with a full set, the TV Size can be ranked with one difficulty.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Get good.
I'd rather have some more restrictions towards mapsets of the same song to support song diversity.
There's a reason why spreads exist and also why most songs don't have difficulties above 5*.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc
The reason why the rule exists is because back in the day, not many mapsets were new-player friendly. In regards to the same song and the "guest diff", pretty much what Stefan said.



( I was mapping when the original rule was put in place )
Sea_Food
484 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Sea_Food

Natsu wrote:

no doesn't make sense, tbh that is just laziness, each map need a well made spread, is not that hard! Also take in mind what new players see when they download beatmaps is: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmaplist You want it to be full of 7* maps only? no right. Also ¨real maps¨ even an Easy diff is a real map that can be enjoyed for many people as well, tbh there aren't many players capable of 7*.. casual > pro, that's why easiest difficulties are important at any map.
That is a good point. How ever I think thats more of the fault of shitty beatmap page than my idea. If only there way to search or sort by difficulty... Anyway yes most players cant play 7* maps, but most players dont play 0.5-2.5 maps either. It seems rather oppressive to force a low star map for every mapset, when only a tiny fraction of players want them. Im not asking that every mapset needs a 7* difficulty either.

Sea_Food wrote:

Okay I really dont understand why every beatmap set should have easy difficulties

Rule wrote:

...containing at least an Easy or a Normal difficulty.
Depending on the case Easy never were a must-have if certain requirements are fullfilled.
That is pretty much just semantics. Every mapset must have difficulty less than 2.0 plus those certain other requirements. Almost all diffs before the new system were [easy] were in the 2star range anyway.


Sea_Food wrote:

but I guess its not a big issue as those are so fast to map and dont take much time from making real maps.
Mapping isn't hard, mapping something good is. And making a crappy easy difficulty for spread's sake isn't as senseful as leaving out an easy difficulty. Why bothering about if you can't make one (or at least ask someone to do a Easy GD).
From now on when i say an easy difficulty, just read it as a "difficulty less then 2.5 stars." ok? So yeah you make easy difficulties because the current ranking criteria forces you to.


Sea_Food wrote:

So what that means is that if there is a song that has difficulties mapped from the bottom to 6star, you would be allowed to map the song doing only a difficulty of 7.5stars or anything below that.

Kinda like adding a quest difficulty. Makes sense right?
Definitely no. People will just wait for others to get their full spread mapsets ranked to follow with their single-difficulty-sets because they're lazy to put effort in their work. People should stop being that minimalistic nowadays.
You asking people to put effort into their work is pretty much entirely separate issue to this topic. We are flooded with mapsets containing 5difficulties that have combined less effort put into than what a single difficulty should have. I dont see how my suggestion would make this problem any worse.

It also leaves room open for more silly requests, e.g. if there is a full version of a song with a full set, the TV Size can be ranked with one difficulty.
Tbh it should be also allowed the otherway around.

Endaris wrote:

Get good.
I'd rather have some more restrictions towards mapsets of the same song to support song diversity.
There's a reason why spreads exist and also why most songs don't have difficulties above 5*.
The reason why most maps dont have difficulties above 5* is because most songs dont have any reasons to have such hard difficulties.
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
No, don't be lazy and map a full spread for your songs for inexperienced players to enjoy. It's really as simple as that.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
I don't see why we need to cater every mapset for every noob out there. If they want to be able to play a difficult and epic song, then they should have to work to the point where they have the skill to play that song. There are plenty of easy maps to practice on. Having one for every mapset is not necessary and it discourages skill progression. Making it easy for bad players is never a good decision. Imagine if you played a game you fought the final boss multiple times, starting out easy and getting more difficult each time. It make beating the boss the final time a lot less satisfying, wouldn't it.
Sea_Food
484 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Sea_Food

B1rd wrote:

I don't see why we need to cater every mapset for every noob out there. If they want to be able to play a difficult and epic song, then they should have to work to the point where they have the skill to play that song. There are plenty of easy maps to practice on. Having one for every mapset is not necessary and it discourages skill progression. Making it easy for bad players is never a good decision. Imagine if you played a game you fought the final boss multiple times, starting out easy and getting more difficult each time. It make beating the boss the final time a lot less satisfying, wouldn't it.
Yeah. The rule didnt use to exist and osu! was doing fine as a game. I wonder what happened.
Yauxo
1,622 posts
Joined June 2011
Yauxo
Might as well only sell the shell of a game and sell the actual content via DLC -owait

It's not gonna happen. If you only want to map one diff, try approval or just straight up graveyard mapping.
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

B1rd wrote:

I don't see why we need to cater every mapset for every noob out there. If they want to be able to play a difficult and epic song, then they should have to work to the point where they have the skill to play that song. There are plenty of easy maps to practice on. Having one for every mapset is not necessary and it discourages skill progression. Making it easy for bad players is never a good decision. Imagine if you played a game you fought the final boss multiple times, starting out easy and getting more difficult each time. It make beating the boss the final time a lot less satisfying, wouldn't it.
guys you seems to forget that there are more casual players than pp farmers. Alot of people enjoy log in and play they favourite song in easy , normal or hard diff and have some fun.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd

Natsu wrote:

B1rd wrote:

I don't see why we need to cater every mapset for every noob out there. If they want to be able to play a difficult and epic song, then they should have to work to the point where they have the skill to play that song. There are plenty of easy maps to practice on. Having one for every mapset is not necessary and it discourages skill progression. Making it easy for bad players is never a good decision. Imagine if you played a game you fought the final boss multiple times, starting out easy and getting more difficult each time. It make beating the boss the final time a lot less satisfying, wouldn't it.
guys you seems to forget that there are more casual players than pp farmers. Alot of people enjoy log in and play they favourite song in easy , normal or hard diff and have some fun.
Who are you catering the game to, the people who play casually for a month or two and then stop playing, or the regular players who play the game frequently? There are very few players stuck at easys and normals, it doesn't take very long relatively to surpass them.

What is the point of a game? It's to succeed isn't it? To win, to challenge yourself, to set goals and get better. This the difference between a game and other types of entertainment, such as movies. So now we have established that premise, we have to ask the question, why should we cater to the absolute beginners when the game is about improving? Why should we go out of our way to make sure every bit of content is available to them? I don't respect games that don't respect the skills and conviction of the player.

And of course, this is just my opinion, I'm not really arguing for the rules to be changed, because I know that's a pretty futile effort, what with the current people who're in power.
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

B1rd wrote:

Who are you catering the game to, the people who play casually for a month or two and then stop playing, or the regular players who play the game frequently? There are very few players stuck at easys and normals, it doesn't take very long relatively to surpass them.

For example I do have 3 years playing the game casually and im still here, there are alot more of people that do the same, if not just go check how many plays easy, normal and hard diff get.

What is the point of a game? It's to succeed isn't it? To win, to challenge yourself, to set goals and get better. This the difference between a game and other types of entertainment, such as movies. So now we have established that premise, we have to ask the question, why should we cater to the absolute beginners when the game is about improving? Why should we go out of our way to make sure every bit of content is available to them? I don't respect games that don't respect the skills and conviction of the player.

Enjoy a game have many ways to enjoy, casual, pro, farmer etc, there is no correct way

And of course, this is just my opinion, I'm not really arguing for the rules to be changed, because I know that's a pretty futile effort, what with the current people who're in power.
yes there are many ways to enjoy the game as I said before, that's why is important to bring diversity to the game. I always do map 3 mins + songs and I dont have any problem by mapping 5+ difficultys >:
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
You actually don't need to bother about Easy Difficulties at all if you don't play them. People don't want to faill billions of times on a harder difficulty because mapper didn't offer an easier difficulty. It doesn't needs to be your business if or if not they improve, just leave them their way how they want to improve, whether by continious playing Easy, Normal Difficulties or tryharding from Hard and everything above.

The rule exist to have an offer of options you can play per song/mapset, if people don't want to play the harder ones, they pick the easier ones. If there's no easy option they might throw it back and having less fun in the game - just because people decide to put lesser effort in their work and make their mapsets accessible for all skill classes.

And you can turn and defend if however you want but it's laziness to excuse missing easier difficulties for shorter songs - by the way, Normals can also be suitable for these kind of players as long they're well made, either by yourself OR by a guest mapper.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
Sure, it may not be hard for you two to make 5+ diff mapsets, considering you already have over a dozen ranked maps and dozens of mapper buddies ready to make guest diffs and mod your maps. But by making it easier for beginner players you in turn make it a lot harder for beginner mappers. If it didn't take such an unnecessarily large amount of effort to get a map ranked, you would have many more mappers, many more mappers and much more variety.

And so it seems that the main argument for having the easy diff requirement is that so players can play the songs they like. Well here is a question: what about the pro players? They won't enjoy playing a 1.5 star map, why don't they get a difficult suitable for their skill level on every song? Why does there have to be a 120bpm map on every 240bpm song, but there doesn't have to be a 240bpm map on a 120 bpm song?
It's not just about 'laziness', it's that some difficulties are not appropriate for some songs.

If there didn't have to be an easy diff for every map, the game wouldn't collapse, the thousands of easy diffs wouldn't be erased, easy two-diff mapsets wouldn't stop being created either. Artificial regulations are redundant. The laws of supply and demand make sure that people have enough maps that they like to play.

Natsu wrote:

Enjoy a game have many ways to enjoy, casual, pro, farmer etc, there is no correct way
What you're describing isn't different ways to play a game, you're describing different skill levels and levels of commitment to getting better. I'm fairly casual myself. But I don't expect that because of that everyone should have to cater to the way I play. The majority of people play to get better and to achieve good scores. The majority shouldn't have to suffer because of a minority don't want to improve and want all mapsets cater to them.

Stefan wrote:

You actually don't need to bother about Easy Difficulties at all if you don't play them. People don't want to faill billions of times on a harder difficulty because mapper didn't offer an easier difficulty. It doesn't needs to be your business if or if not they improve, just leave them their way how they want to improve, whether by continious playing Easy, Normal Difficulties or tryharding from Hard and everything above.

Well maybe the daft player could play a mapset that did have an easy difficulty. But you're right, we don't need to babysit people to make sure they improve. We can leave that up to them.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Let's also not forget that it's alright for a map to only have one difficulty if it's over 5 minutes long. What if, as a new player, I really liked a song, but it was over 5 minutes long, so there's only a bullshit difficult 6* difficulty that's wayyyy too hard for me? What if I wanted to play apparition because I like the song? There should clearly be a difficulty spread forced upon apparition, because I like the song, and I want to play it, but I can't, because the only difficulty is impossibly difficult.

If the only argument for requiring a full spread is "So that new players can enjoy the game and the songs they want" said argument immediately falls apart with the existence of the approval system.

I disagree with the changes proposed in the OP but I definitely feel something could be improved upon concerning this rule. I believe that forced difficulty spreads can take away from a map. Instead of making a single "Amazing" difficulty, the mapper can end up with 5 merely "Good" difficulties, due to having to devote the same amount of time to more things at once.
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