Bringing this back to CtB, I agree with MB's wording.

Wafu wrote:

DakeDekaane wrote:

Slider velocity plays a big role in low difficulties, it's too slow compared to the standard Taiko SV. Crowded notes are not the best way to introduce Taiko to new players.

Also, Taiko needs to give rest moments between pattern to give a small break to the players, but mostly, to represent the song better, specially in low difficulties. Such thing is rarely achievable with the usual standard mapping nowadays, so it's better having specific difficulties here.

So basically, even if the map would be both perfect in taiko and standard, which would actually be rare, but some songs actually allow those pauses naturally, so it is not impossible, it would be still unrankabe. I know it is really rare, but some songs are built well for this and might result in a good taiko, in my opinion, if the map had all perfect settings and everything for taiko, why should it not have an exception, that it is rare is one thing, but still, I think it's not always good to ignore these even tho rare maps.

If it's actually that big of an issue where suddenly it's just so perfect that you firmly believe that someone can't just whip together a little Kantan you can bring it up with the taiko QAT. Knowing the taiko QAT relatively well (for someone that doesn't play taiko), I know that they're not retarded.

There's no point in LITERALLY HIJACKING A THREAD to fight your ass off just for some VERY SPECIFIC INSTANCE THAT, IN MY TIME, I HAVE NEVER SEEN (unless you wanna count taik!osu, but that was built specifically to work in both diffs.)

Like, if this was a commonly occuring thing, I'd say it's worth everyone's time, but even you say that its a VERY SPECIFIC INSTANCE.

Plus, tbh, making a Kantan isn't really even super difficult. Even though I don't play Taiko, I still would look through diffs when I was a BN (mostly because I was reckless enough to actually rank multi-mode beatmaps back then ), and I notice that there's so many differences between kantans and easies that it's just really such a rare instance in which this can actually happen, and honestly, if it does happen, it's probably a really shitty easy mode in osu!standard, because the core of what makes an osu!standard diff is different than a taiko diff.

-----------------------------------------------------

Making my post actually relevant to the thread (and because I felt bad for fucking up ZiRoX's efforts to take the topic back), the wording seems. . . fineish. It seems like it'd be super subjective and painful to deal with, but I guess in this instance there really IS no way to make it a solid rule without just being like "make full spreads" (which, seeing as most of my CtB rank is from converts, wouldn't be very fun )

So you basically want to make the condition of having 1 difficulty dependant on a subjective reception of how the standard difficulties convert?

This does not work as rule. You either want to merge the rules and make CtB have equal conditions to Taiko/Mania or leave it as it is right now.

I don't get why the idea of 2 difficulties if one of them is an overdose (or just base it on extra icon ?) was dropped. It's from far the best idea here.

So basically just going back to what zirox posted (slightly modified)

1. Having just one CtB difficulty is allowed in an osu!standard mapset if it isn't an Overdose level (or an Extra icon CtB difficulty), because standard difficulties are converted correctly to CtB. Thus, in Taiko or osu!mania mapsets you need at least 2 CtB difficulties since Taiko and osu!mania can't be converted to CtB.

I don't think to force the easier diff to be a platter is really needed since light insane std convert are still correct.

Krah wrote:

I don't think to force the easier diff to be a platter is really needed since light insane std convert are still correct.

That's the thing. There are like 1/1000000000000 cases where a Platter should be added and that's subjective. But yeah, having some subjectivity in 1/1000000000000 cases is better than in ALL cases.

Agree with Krah (and ZiRoX). Actually almost every Insane out there converts to being equal (or even easier) to Platter. But in worst case its somewhere between Platter and Rain. On the other hand the Rains an Overdoses are on a much higher level. So skipping the Rain in a E/N/H/I (osu!) spread and having only Overdose results a bad spread. So in a case of Extra level CtB specific difficulty a secondary, easier difficulty should be added.

ZiRoX wrote:

Krah wrote:

I don't think to force the easier diff to be a platter is really needed since light insane std convert are still correct.

That's the thing. There are like 1/1000000000000 cases where a Platter should be added and that's subjective. But yeah, having some subjectivity in 1/1000000000000 cases is better than in ALL cases.

Yeah, this.

As a pretty much scrub CTB player myself, Platter is the middleground between "Oh god, this diff is so easy, it's really boring" and "Holy Guacamole, why in the world isn't there a lower diff than Overdose?"

Loctav wrote:

So you basically want to make the condition of having 1 difficulty dependant on a subjective reception of how the standard difficulties convert?

This does not work as rule. You either want to merge the rules and make CtB have equal conditions to Taiko/Mania or leave it as it is right now.

Perhaps to make this more objective, group standard convert diffs by star rating into platter/salad/cup categories. IMO once you get to a rain level difficulty a mapper should transition into mapping an actual rain; at this point CtB mapping becomes more distinct(?). Ex: If a standard set has converted cup/salad/platter difficulty levels and a mapper wants to add an overdose, a rain must be mapped as well. This might not be a good long term solution though if the star rating algorithm for CtB changes in the future. So group standard diffs by a more objective method if star rating is not suitable.

I'm in agreement with the reasoning that's been discussed so far, but I'm still a little hung up on the "you'd almost never need a Platter" train of thought - we're suggesting that having one CtB difficulty in a mapset is fine as long as it's not at Extra/Overdose level, but what if we consider the case of a difficulty that qualifies as an "Extra" when played in Std, but is significantly easier when converted into CtB? Here you could potentially still see a large gap in difficulty between the hardest convert and the CtB specific diff.

Some examples, just by browsing my songs list (and yes, I know some are quite old)

1. Xi - Majotachi no Butoukai ~ Magus - hardest diff is 4.67* in Std but only 2.48* in CtB, song is 170BPM with a constant 1/2 and 1/4 drum track and guitar solos that could easily warrant a Rain/Overdose CtB diff
2. An - Encryption - hardest Std convert is 2.94* but the CtB specific is 4.42*
3. Anamanaguchi - STILL SPLODIN' THO (Interlude) - hardest Std convert is 3.09* but the CtB specific is 4.5*
4. Nekomata Master - Far east nightbird (kors k Remix) - hardest diff is 4.78* in Std but only 3.17* in CtB, 175BPM with a wide variety of complex dubstep/dnb patterns that could accommodate an Overdose CtB diff

Since we can't use a simple metric such as the SR to gauge "when an additional difficulty is needed" - due to subjectivity concerns - I'm not really sure whether this changes much relative to the current system. Sure, a spread issue like those I listed above might occur in only a rare few mapsets in the current age, but we'd still have to make an exception for those mapsets, which would of course be based on subjectivity.

Since (unsurprisingly) it doesn't seem like subjectivity can be removed from the equation altogether, then the best course of action is to minimize it wherever possible, as ZiRoX and others have suggested.

JBHyperion wrote:

I'm in agreement with the reasoning that's been discussed so far, but I'm still a little hung up on the "you'd almost never need a Platter" train of thought - we're suggesting that having one CtB difficulty in a mapset is fine as long as it's not at Extra/Overdose level, but what if we consider the case of a difficulty that qualifies as an "Extra" when played in Std, but is significantly easier when converted into CtB? Here you could potentially still see a large gap in difficulty between the hardest convert and the CtB specific diff.

Some examples, just by browsing my songs list (and yes, I know some are quite old)

1. Xi - Majotachi no Butoukai ~ Magus - hardest diff is 4.67* in Std but only 2.48* in CtB, song is 170BPM with a constant 1/2 and 1/4 drum track and guitar solos that could easily warrant a Rain/Overdose CtB diff
2. An - Encryption - hardest Std convert is 2.94* but the CtB specific is 4.42*
3. Anamanaguchi - STILL SPLODIN' THO (Interlude) - hardest Std convert is 3.09* but the CtB specific is 4.5*
4. Nekomata Master - Far east nightbird (kors k Remix) - hardest diff is 4.78* in Std but only 3.17* in CtB, 175BPM with a wide variety of complex dubstep/dnb patterns that could accommodate an Overdose CtB diff

Since we can't use a simple metric such as the SR to gauge "when an additional difficulty is needed" - due to subjectivity concerns - I'm not really sure whether this changes much relative to the current system. Sure, a spread issue like those I listed above might occur in only a rare few mapsets in the current age, but we'd still have to make an exception for those mapsets, which would of course be based on subjectivity.

Since (unsurprisingly) it doesn't seem like subjectivity can be removed from the equation altogether, then the best course of action is to minimize it wherever possible, as ZiRoX and others have suggested.

Yeah, I'm aware of such cases and, indeed, my original wording suggested that the easiest specific difficulty in a standard mapset must be, at least, a Platter. However, there are some cases where a Platter isn't needed, and forcing a 3rd diff (where the actual rule allows only 1) may discourage adding CtB specifics to standard mapsets. I think the current wording is the best middle ground.

And in those cases where a Platter is needed, there's a rule that says spread evaluation is up to BNs discretion. If you really think a mapset needs a Platter, you're free to suggest it and, if declined, you're on your right to not nominate that mapset.

I agree :O!
Please nuke the old rule!
The insane's are like... either so so easy to clear or almost impossible like you said o-o

I guess I really agree about ZiROX arguements,
STD sometimes convert the Difficulty of STD > CTB turns the map into a Platter Diff map, even Insane map turns to Salad or Platter diff.
Alas, its a secondary option to add Platter if it is required or not to added unless to make a good spread mapset for other diffs.

But there`s some map that still concern, whether this difficulty is really a Platter Difficulty, for example:
Akiyama Uni - The Grimoire of Alice (HW's Hard) - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/344619

There`s certain pattern that goes from Platter to Overdose or Rain, but I`m not sure other map did this same issues.
But I guess thats my opinion.

Bumping this. Pretty sure we've already reached consensus or are really close to it.

1. Having just one CtB difficulty is allowed in an osu!standard mapset if it isn't an Overdose level (or an Extra icon CtB difficulty), because standard difficulties are converted correctly to CtB. Thus, in Taiko or osu!mania mapsets you need at least 2 CtB difficulties since Taiko and osu!mania can't be converted to CtB.

This rule will imply for the CtB diffs/spreads inside osu!standard mapsets:

1. Rain: okay
2. Platter + Rain: okay
3. Rain + Overdose: okay
4. Cup + Salad + Platter + Rain: okay
5. Overdose: not allowed
6. Overdose1 + Overdose2: not allowed

CtB diffs inside taiko/osu!mania mapsets will need a full spread like specified in other rules. This'll remain untouched.

Let's give it a try, sure.

Giving this a second thought, this rule would allow ridiculous cases like a Easy and Normal standard spread + a Rain. While I doubt something like that will actually occur, I think it's better to include something like: "(...) if it isn't Overdose level and the converted standard diffs resemble a spread covering the missing lower diffs". I used 'resemble' since we can't expect converted diffs to fully comply the description of a Cup, Salad or Platter diff.

Ugh, Easy+Normal can hardly called as "spread". If the song is really supporting just those two then the CtB is ridiculously overmapped and shouldn't be ranked imo. In any other case, just suggest them to add a lower CtB or harder osu! difficulty.

I don't feel the need for this kind of add since it will just had some useless "cumbersomeness" in the rule.

Btw it's not handled in other modes too since technically a double easy std spread is rankable and I can just put a hard + insane (taiko or mania) and it will still be rankable.

Seems fair. Move this forward :^)

What's the progress on this? Seems like we reached a reasonable conclusion people agree on in Deif's post.

Yeah, as much as people may disagree on this in the future, I feel it'll have a positive effect in the long run, might as well move this forward.

Just kick Loctav to take a look. Nothing else could be and needs to be done.

Not entirely happy with it, but I guess that works now. We definitely need to adjust that at some later point of time. (like the entire Ranking Criteria in general)

Amended. Does only affect mapsets that were neither bubbled or qualified at any point of time before this amendment. (2015-12-03 21:24 UTC+0)

rip spec's overdose

Ascendance wrote:

rip spec's overdose

Or welcome Ascendance's Rain :^)

Look at the positive side: this will bring better spreads and will help promote less known mappers as more diffs are required in general.

why, there's barely any ctb mappers to begin with, this literally makes it so ctb overdose spreads will come like a Christmas gift once every year ayy lmao and theres like 3-5 people who can even map good overdoses

zSkill wrote:

why, there's barely any ctb mappers to begin with, this literally makes it so ctb overdose spreads will come like a Christmas gift once every year ayy lmao and theres like 3-5 people who can even map good overdoses

there's plenty of mappers not enough ranked maps BN's ww

Time to map more Rain like Insane Techniques \:D/ /runs

that's cool

Yes, finally a rule that will allow me to play more 3star maps! There wasn't really enough to begin with but with this we can finally enjoy some nice maps

Setomi wrote:

Yes, finally a rule that will allow me to play more 3star maps!

idk man thats pretty good for shitters like me

rank seal it has lots of 3 star pp maps

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

Yeah, as much as people may disagree on this in the future, I feel it'll have a positive effect in the long run, might as well move this forward.

Called it :^)

To everyone who disagrees with this rule: Just because a rain is in the set with an overdose, doesn't make the overdose automatically worse. If you're only gonna play the overdose, just play the overdose, who cares if there's also a rain on the set if you're not gonna play it, but someone else will. This adds more fun for all players, just stop thinking about just yourself.

rip lazy mappers =w=

Wow this got approved 2h ago and some people are freaking out. Instead of panicking, this is a nice moment to push up your mapping skills and make something else apart of a wtfisthis diff that just 1-2 people can pass.

Let's make an enjoyable game for more people! (This doesn't implies that Overdoses aren't welcomed anymore, on the contrary they'll help contributing a more varied mapset).

Deif wrote:

Wow this got approved 2h ago and some people are freaking out. Instead of panicking, this is a nice moment to push up your mapping skills and make something else apart of a wtfisthis diff that just 1-2 people can pass.

Let's make an enjoyable game for more people! (This doesn't implies that Overdoses aren't welcomed anymore, on the contrary they'll help contributing a more varied mapset).

Honestly I have to agree. Look at the case of Spec's overdoses. Do you honestly think they would die because of this? No, of course not, I can think of so many people who would love to do a guest difficulty on a set with Spec in, finding a rain mapper for that really would not be hard. Even in the case of a newer mapper, it's always good to practice mapping those rain difficulties, so it'd be valuable experience for them. No ones maps will die, the only possible negative effect from this is a slightly longer ranking process, possibly, and that's good as it gives the difficulties more time to be perfected.

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

Deif wrote:

Wow this got approved 2h ago and some people are freaking out. Instead of panicking, this is a nice moment to push up your mapping skills and make something else apart of a wtfisthis diff that just 1-2 people can pass.

Let's make an enjoyable game for more people! (This doesn't implies that Overdoses aren't welcomed anymore, on the contrary they'll help contributing a more varied mapset).

Honestly I have to agree. Look at the case of Spec's overdoses. Do you honestly think they would die because of this? No, of course not, I can think of so many people who would love to do a guest difficulty on a set with Spec in, finding a rain mapper for that really would not be hard. Even in the case of a newer mapper, it's always good to practice mapping those rain difficulties, so it'd be valuable experience for them. No ones maps will die, the only possible negative effect from this is a slightly longer ranking process, possibly, and that's good as it gives the difficulties more time to be perfected.

complaining is a lot easier tbh.

rip spec's overdose

im kidding dont hurt me

people will always overreact at first. nothing to worry about here, classic ctb

The future cannot be predicted by anyone, so let's just wait for a while.
(Since I have been watching those endless happenings in LoL reddit)

Whatever the truth is the modders and BNs are having more works for now :/

Guys, this discussion started 10 months ago. If you have/had concerns with this new rule, you had plenty of time to voice them. This forum is open to everybody, and if you're truly interested, you should take part of the discussions that arise here. Note that there are like 3-4 other threads regarding new CtB rules.

I acknowledge your concerns with the rule, but it brings more pros than cons. Let me sum them up:

Pros

1. Provides better spreads between standard converts and CtB specifics
2. As long as the Rain difficulty secures a good spread, even harder Overdose GDs can get ranked
3. Needing more CtB difficulties, more mappers will be needed. This is the perfect chance for less known mappers to get GDs requested, and to keep improving their diffs. This goes along with the fact that the mapperbase has increased. 1 1/2 year ago we were like 10, and clearly now there's more than that; the CtB mapper ranking current lists 50 people!

Cons

1. Some maps in the Pending section became unrankable, however, their number is limited. For future maps, the only thing is that you'll need to ask for 2 GDs instead of 1. This promotes that less known mappers get requested for GDs. So this is a short-term only impact.
2. People will have to mod 2 diffs instead of 1. If someone will reject a mod request because it's 2 diffs, and would have accepted if it was a single diff, he/she can barely be called a modder. Being this picky when it comes to accepting requests, their current contribution to CtB is minimal, so it's not a major issue.

Is the border between Rain and Overdose clear in CtB? Because in Standard, the border between Insane and Extra is not clear (before 2013/14, Extra diffs rarely existed, people just called their highest diff Insane even though some were on the level of Extras... Today you could still name really hard diffs Insane when E/N/H make a proper spread with it). So yeah, if this rule was applied in Standard, I would predict that everybody would just name their Extras "Insane" because there are no clear borders set and it could be ranked just like that.

I don't know if it's the same case in CtB, I thought about this just now.

@Desperate: Yes, we can clearly justify the difference between Rain and Overdose, the patterns and the allowed use of density between these diffs is quite remarkable. Also, if someone calls his highest diff Overdose but it plays like a typical Rain, any experienced CTB modder should be able to point that out and motivate the mapper to rename the difficulty.

Deif wrote:

Wow this got approved 2h ago and some people are freaking out. Instead of panicking, this is a nice moment to push up your mapping skills and make something else apart of a wtfisthis diff that just 1-2 people can pass.

Thank you, I was about to write something similar. 100% agree.

whoa

but what if, the hardest converted difficulty itself is already considered equal to rain(+)? (not only in star rating, but also in playability)

isn't it feels unnecessary to having 2 "rain" difficulties?

Having just one CtB difficulty is allowed in an osu!standard mapset if it isn't an Overdose level

Learn to read please. No one said Rain needs another Rain. This rule is to prevent standalone Extra difficulties in an osu!standard sets.

Ah... reminds me of the 3 year old rule change for Taiko.

Kurokami wrote:

Having just one CtB difficulty is allowed in an osu!standard mapset if it isn't an Overdose level

Learn to read please. No one said Rain needs another Rain. This rule is to prevent standalone Extra difficulties in an osu!standard sets.

no, i mean the converted diff that plays like a rain (yes there is one or more, even if the converted extra diffs out there plays awfully)

so the case would be like

1 auto-convert diff that plays like a rain, and
1 actual rain diff

We don't care about auto converts at this point. If you have an Extra (ctb specific) difficulty, you must add an easier one as well. In CtB we don't judge auto converts, just the specific difficulties.

Kurokami wrote:

Having just one CtB difficulty is allowed in an osu!standard mapset if it isn't an Overdose level

Learn to read please. No one said Rain needs another Rain. This rule is to prevent standalone Extra difficulties in an osu!standard sets.

The poster made reference to "a hardest converted difficulty which itself is already considered equal to rain(+)?", not "an actual CtB Rain difficulty" as you're referring to.

In response, I feel that in the majority of cases where the hardest convert diff is around the level of a Rain (and would require a difficulty befitting a sensible spread gap to Overdose), the convert quality is often reduced due to harsher spacing and patterns, strange and difficult-to-read flow, and in extreme cases, some patterns are almost unplayable, at least to the intended "Rain" difficulty playing audience. In these cases, an "actual" CtB Rain difficulty would be desirable, which is what this rule seeks to achieve.

Kurokami wrote:

We don't care about auto converts at this point. If you have an Extra (ctb specific) difficulty, you must add an easier one as well. In CtB we don't judge auto converts, just the specific difficulties.

JBHyperion wrote:

In response, I feel that in the majority of cases where the hardest convert diff is around the level of a Rain (and would require a difficulty befitting a sensible spread gap to Overdose), the convert quality is often reduced due to harsher spacing and patterns, strange and difficult-to-read flow, and in extreme cases, some patterns are almost unplayable, at least to the intended "Rain" difficulty playing audience. In these cases, an "actual" CtB Rain difficulty would be desirable, which is what this rule seeks to achieve.

uh, fair enough i think

thanks for the explanations

JBHyperion wrote:

Kurokami wrote:

The poster made reference to "a hardest converted difficulty which itself is already considered equal to rain(+)?", not "an actual CtB Rain difficulty" as you're referring to.

And where is the actual difference if we refer to that guideline? Rain+ is still considered as Rain, so it is allowed to stay as a standalone difficulty. Rain is Rain, but the BNs finally decide whether they still accept a Rain+ as Rain or it needs to be an Overdose, and in consequence the need of adding a proper Rain.

mfw there is more discussion during 2days than during the 3months where we heavily asked people to post here D:

OnosakiHito wrote:

Ah... reminds me of the 3 year old rule change for Taiko.

RIP SOLO ONI, OMG MUZU FORCED

Krah wrote:

mfw there is more discussion during 2days than during the 3months where we heavily asked people to post here D:

Yeah, as expected. More people come when they see the rule added and complain about it. Or just want to ask things. Weird thing, no one saw our posts in #ctb when we asked for opinions. This will be the case with the other 4-5 currently brought up ones probably.

Kurokami wrote:

Krah wrote:

mfw there is more discussion during 2days than during the 3months where we heavily asked people to post here D:

Weird thing, no one saw our posts in #ctb when we asked for opinions. This will be the case with the other 4-5 currently brought up ones probably.

Because the majority of people are too lazy to exercise their right to discuss the issue and would rather just retrospectively complain when they can't do anything about it to vindicate their decision. It's nothing new lol.

As Kurokami said, there are a number of additional rule/guideline changes currently under review since the CtB Ranking Criteria is outdated (or non-existant). Everyone is entitled (and encouraged) to discuss these in their appropriate thread before a finalization is reached. You can't complain about something when you neglected to exercise your right to change it.