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[added] Make CS/HP/AR/OD toggle-able in Mods

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Total Posts
164
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +4,131
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DT-sama
191 posts
Joined October 2013
DT-sama

[-MrSergio-] wrote:

If this gets implemented mappers can start mapping with crazy values since the player will use his/her own values.

^ this kind of reasoning is really stupid. What osu!'s mappers do is to grant a good standard for beatmaps. With this feature they will lose some of their merits, which I find really unfair, beacuse mapping isn't easy (try it and you'll see)

I completely disagree with this, sorry
That's only true for changeable ARs, because it wouldn't be clear how to give it a score multiplier, and I don't support that.
But changeable CS and OD harm no one, give them a higher score multiplier if they're higher than the mapper's default choice, a lower score multiplier if not. There's literally no more encouragement or discouragement of crazy values than there are right now.
Mappers can do whatever they want right now anyway, but you don't see them mapping AR6 CS3 OD5 5* maps and saying "lol just HR it if you want reasonable CS, AR and OD".
And honestly I'm tired of 6* maps locked to OD7/8 for literally no reason, I hate that if I want to play a map "the way the mapper intended it" without ruining the song with DT, I have to downgrade to a non-rhythm game.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS
I would like to see something like this very bad... But UNRANKED. In this way, you can make it very simple without thinking about balance.
Actually, I like to play in AR10, but this is annoying to edit my maps one by one. Same thing if I want to play them with CS at 3.4 or/with OD at 10, for exemple.

Basically, what you can do while editing a map but as unranked mods (4 mods = CS/HP/AR/OD), and being able to mix them like you want.
With that, you can play your maps like you want without editing them.

This is interesting for practice too.

I don't think it would be difficult to make.
Dephix
86 posts
Joined February 2015
Dephix
idk
Last edited by Dephix , edited 1 time in total.
[-obee58-]
276 posts
Joined November 2011
[-obee58-]
+2, make it unranked, I don't like having to go in to editor and make separate diffs :u
-Maus-
571 posts
Joined August 2013
-Maus-
Unsup as hell. It's a stepmania rip-off.
Aibou
16 posts
Joined February 2015
Aibou
If this is made, AR should not modify score at all.
HP can change your score, but it only by decreasing it. Increasing HP shouldn't increase your score.
CS should change your score if you're increasing CS, and decreasing it if you're lowering CS.
OD should increase your score if you're increasing OD, and decreasing it if you're lowering OD.

Since people often argue that higher AR is easier to read, we shouldn't reward that.
For HP, the map difficulty isn't really being increased, you're just punished more for mistakes, so it shouldn't increase score either.
CS can increase difficulty, so it should modify score.
OD can increase difficulty as well, so likewise, it should increase score.
-Maus-
571 posts
Joined August 2013
-Maus-

[Aibou] wrote:

If this is made, AR should not modify score at all.
HP can change your score, but it only by decreasing it. Increasing HP shouldn't increase your score.
CS should change your score if you're increasing CS, and decreasing it if you're lowering CS.
OD should increase your score if you're increasing OD, and decreasing it if you're lowering OD.

Since people often argue that higher AR is easier to read, we shouldn't reward that.
For HP, the map difficulty isn't really being increased, you're just punished more for mistakes, so it shouldn't increase score either.
CS can increase difficulty, so it should modify score.
OD can increase difficulty as well, so likewise, it should increase score.
And how do you think OD would be increased in mania for example? Do you think peppy will magically create something that would let the game add LNs AND make them logical and playable?
Aibou
16 posts
Joined February 2015
Aibou

Transformau5 wrote:

And how do you think OD would be increased in mania for example? Do you think peppy will magically create something that would let the game add LNs AND make them logical and playable?
LNs? I don't play osumania, so I could be completely oblivious when saying this, but we could just make it more difficult to hit 300s.
Hemmi
98 posts
Joined May 2013
Hemmi

[Aibou] wrote:

If this is made, AR should not modify score at all.
HP can change your score, but it only by decreasing it. Increasing HP shouldn't increase your score.
CS should change your score if you're increasing CS, and decreasing it if you're lowering CS.
OD should increase your score if you're increasing OD, and decreasing it if you're lowering OD.

Since people often argue that higher AR is easier to read, we shouldn't reward that.
For HP, the map difficulty isn't really being increased, you're just punished more for mistakes, so it shouldn't increase score either.
CS can increase difficulty, so it should modify score.
OD can increase difficulty as well, so likewise, it should increase score.

Modifying AR should definitely unrank, else it would make DT so much easier.
-Maus-
571 posts
Joined August 2013
-Maus-

[Aibou] wrote:

Transformau5 wrote:

And how do you think OD would be increased in mania for example? Do you think peppy will magically create something that would let the game add LNs AND make them logical and playable?
LNs? I don't play osumania, so I could be completely oblivious when saying this, but we could just make it more difficult to hit 300s.
LNS= long notes.
Aibou
16 posts
Joined February 2015
Aibou

Gunsillie wrote:

Modifying AR should definitely unrank, else it would make DT so much easier.
Never thought about this, this is definitely something we'll need to factor in. Maybe when DT and AR mods are used in combination, score is decreased?

Transformau5 wrote:

LNS= long notes.
Oh, alright. Care to elaborate as to how it's impossible to implement though? Aren't LNs already in the game? If LNs are the same as sliders in osu, make it so holding the notes have a tighter release time.
Keihyan
132 posts
Joined March 2014
Keihyan
it sounds really great and I want this system to practice AR10
-Maus-
571 posts
Joined August 2013
-Maus-

[Aibou] wrote:

Gunsillie wrote:

Modifying AR should definitely unrank, else it would make DT so much easier.
Never thought about this, this is definitely something we'll need to factor in. Maybe when DT and AR mods are used in combination, score is decreased?

Transformau5 wrote:

LNS= long notes.
Oh, alright. Care to elaborate as to how it's impossible to implement though? Aren't LNs already in the game? If LNs are the same as sliders in osu, make it so holding the notes have a tighter release time.
LNs are in the game, the game can't create them itself, though. Osu! doesn't have a magical sound recognition system, it doesn't know whether adding a long note here or there makes any sense, it can't tell the difference before making a jackhammer on spacebar or a trill on 2 rightmost columns OR a long note beginning in the same point another one finishes. That's a thing that was screwed up on autoconverts and would likely be screwed up here too.
trash aim_old
trash aim_old
why is this not a thing yet

make every change result in unranked, it doesnt matter, but it would make multiplayer a lot more enjoyable with all this stupid 250+ bpm ar9 eyecancer
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Blue Dragon wrote:

why can't you just accept that mappers want you to play the map this way, you're the player, you shouldn't be able to edit it in any way
some may argue that in guitar hero/ddr/stepmania you can change the speed which notes come

but osu! is a different game and you should deal with it
respect the mappers' choice

also, don't ruin old maps, please.
How can you respect the mappers' choice when you use 100% dim? Stop being a hypocrite. Visual settings killed mappers' choice.

I see no problem with this as a ranked mod. 0.3x score, plus/minus any gains from difficulty change and 10% PP, plus/minus any PP gains from the change in difficulty. Players who do not care about ranking (a small minority) will abuse this mod to enjoy the game and they will not affect any rankings other than having a ridiculously deflated rank. Players who do care about ranking (pretty much everyone else) will use this mod to practice/fix stupid problems with maps.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

ziin wrote:

Blue Dragon wrote:

why can't you just accept that mappers want you to play the map this way, you're the player, you shouldn't be able to edit it in any way
some may argue that in guitar hero/ddr/stepmania you can change the speed which notes come

but osu! is a different game and you should deal with it
respect the mappers' choice

also, don't ruin old maps, please.
How can you respect the mappers' choice when you use 100% dim? Stop being a hypocrite. Visual settings killed mappers' choice.

I see no problem with this as a ranked mod. 0.3x score, plus/minus any gains from difficulty change and 10% PP, plus/minus any PP gains from the change in difficulty. Players who do not care about ranking (a small minority) will abuse this mod to enjoy the game and they will not affect any rankings other than having a ridiculously deflated rank. Players who do care about ranking (pretty much everyone else) will use this mod to practice/fix stupid problems with maps.
to fix stupid problems with maps? How can you seriously say that? If you're not good enough to hit a tricky spaced single pattern in a map and use bigger circles to allow you to play it in a straight line, are you fixing stupid problems with the map? If you're completely incapable of playing squares and need to raise the AR in order to see the individual circles, are you fixing stupid problems with the map? If you can't pass a map because your accuracy sucks and you need to lower the OD, are you fixing stupid problems with the map? No, you're entirely changing how the map plays. While it's honestly probably a good thing that HR exists, it's an awful mod. The increased OD is good. It helps to separate people who can SS the map normally because osu! hit windows are pretty damn huge. Smaller circles are a mixed bag. It makes some patterns fucking impossible and barely changes some others, but people can just avoid using it on maps that have hellish patterns so it's okay. Increased drain is kinda stupid for HR to have with the way drain works in osu!, but meh. Increased AR on it is awful. It gives a non-map-dependent you-must-be-this-tall sign for any insane or above map (aka AR10 reading) that makes the map easier if you can read it. Flipping the map vertically is similarly awful. It doesn't make the map any more difficult objectively, while in some cases it can make difficult parts of a map easier for players. Flipping the map vertically switches the clockwise/counterclockwise orientation of patterns, which is a horrible thing for a difficulty-increasing mod to do when players have varying strengths and weaknesses in each direction.

So why did I just post so many words bashing HR? Because this mod is worse. You want to give people the option to selectively modify those settings in order to make maps easier/harder? No thank you. HR kinda sorta works because it's standardized. This mod would not be. We don't want a ranked mod that encourages people to edit maps to CS4.7 to just barely ruin patterns that would be MUCH harder to play on CS4.8 (yes, that is actually possible). We don't want a ranked mod that encourages people to throw AR10 (or AR9 on higher AR maps for people who can't read above AR9) on any map that they're not good enough to read - yes, reading a map at different ARs is a skill that 100% must be a part of osu! simply because of what aim is (if you disagree with this, think for a while about it and you'll realize why). This mod is (almost) everything wrong with HR but without the standardization that makes HR okay. The ability to change just the OD and keep the map ranked would be nice in theory, but is almost completely incompatible with how the scoring system works. Allowing for any of the other settings to be changed without making the play unranked is just flat-out wrong...except maybe hp but that couldn't be allowed to increase score anyway and should just give the same multiplier as NF.

Oh, and your thing about 100% dim is a red herring. If it were the mapper's choice to have fully white hit circles on a fully white background, for example, there would be nothing wrong with fully dimming the background because when you have a map in which it is literally impossible to see any of the hitobjects, you are no longer playing the same game. Yep, that's a ridiculous and extreme example, but what if instead of a white background, it was a very light grey that you could kinda sorta see the hit circles on? A very slightly darker shade than that? Very slightly darker than that even? At what point can you see the objects well enough to still be playing a game about moving your cursor to circles and pressing a button? There is no answer to that. While it's probably nice to play a map at least once with background/storyboard/video/skin/hitsounds chosen by the mapper, they're not part of what makes the map what it is. They're things that detract from the game for artistic purposes. Map settings, however, do determine what the map is. If you want to fix stupid problems with maps, feel free to do that with unranked plays rather than trying to get an abomination of a ranked mod to cover your inadequacy.

So yeah, let's get this as an unranked mod please.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
Fixing stupid problems with maps is exactly that: making the beatmap enjoyable to the player by removing the aspects of the game they don't like.

you may see 100% dim as a red herring, but there are plenty of maps designed to blend in with the background, and I certainly didn't intend it to be a red herring since I see no moral difference in dimming backgrounds/removing storyboards and changing difficulty settings. Backgrounds and difficulty settings add artificial difficulty to a map.

This can absolutely NOT go for unranked because it encourages players to play maps without it affecting their score at all. This is what spun out used to do and why peppy made it ranked. If you have a valid reason why having this as a ranked mod is such an abomination (who does it hurt? who does it help?) then I'll listen to you.

As far as AR/aim: I disagree and I still haven't realized why so please enlighten me. Last time I checked, osu's motto wasn't [b]aim[b] is just a click away.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

ziin wrote:

Fixing stupid problems with maps is exactly that: making the beatmap enjoyable to the player by removing the aspects of the game they don't like.

you may see 100% dim as a red herring, but there are plenty of maps designed to blend in with the background, and I certainly didn't intend it to be a red herring since I see no moral difference in dimming backgrounds/removing storyboards and changing difficulty settings. Backgrounds and difficulty settings add artificial difficulty to a map.

This can absolutely NOT go for unranked because it encourages players to play maps without it affecting their score at all. This is what spun out used to do and why peppy made it ranked. If you have a valid reason why having this as a ranked mod is such an abomination (who does it hurt? who does it help?) then I'll listen to you.

As far as AR/aim: I disagree and I still haven't realized why so please enlighten me. Last time I checked, osu's motto wasn't [b]aim[b] is just a click away.
I already said why it's an abomination.

Relax is unranked but adds to your playcount (I just checked to make sure) and I assume this would do the same thing - and if it didn't, would that be a problem? To use your words, who does it hurt? This would actually encourage the opposite of what you're saying though - using this mod would be easier than making a diff with altered difficulty settings, so people would have more of their plays count towards their playcount rather than less.

"Artificial difficulty" is a fun little buzzword that people like to use to handwave away parts of a game they don't like, so let's break this down a bit using real words. Backgrounds/storyboards? That's artificial difficulty. A distracting background/storyboard is like giving someone special glasses to wear while playing that are actually just a really dirty pair of glasses with the wrong prescription. It has nothing to do with gameplay, it's just there to make the game more difficult. Difficulty settings? Not artificial difficulty with the exception of hp drain. HP drain doesn't make the game harder, it just decides (at times almost arbitrarily) that you're not doing well enough and causes you to fail. Mendes+HR, happy30 spinner maps nomod, etc. I fail to see how any other difficulty settings are artificial difficulty. CS is very obviously not artificial difficulty. OD is only artificial difficulty if you discount rhythm/timing as a part of osu! (which your final paragraph indicates is not the case). AR....this one's more complicated and ties in with what exactly aim is, so it deserves its own paragraph.

Let's get on the same page first though. Your "aim is just a click away" thing seems to indicate that you don't think osu! is about aim, but I hope we can agree that it's a legitimate component of osu!. In fact, it's pretty much the only thing that sets osu! apart from other rhythm games, so I'm going to assume that we can agree on this. Aim has a physical component and a mental component. The physical component is muscle memory. It's knowing by feel that going a certain distance across the screen requires moving your mouse or pen a certain amount or that reaching a certain spot on the screen requires moving your pen to a certain spot on your tablet. The mental component is everything else and it's exactly what we normally refer to as reading, but it's more than just "can you read this AR??". It's the obvious things like being able to figure out which note is next on low AR and being able to see notes in time on high AR, but there's also a component of reading that is 100% specific to aim - determining exactly where an object is relative to previous objects and/or relative to the rest of the playing field. THAT is the type of reading that makes people hate low AR. Having objects on the screen for longer and having more objects on screen makes it much harder to determine exactly where notes are, which makes it much harder to aim. However, this kind of difficulty is affected by....well, kind of a lot of things. It's affected by object density because the more objects there are on screen at once, the harder it is to focus on the specific one you want and to switch to the correct new object after. It's affected directly by AR in a way that has nothing to do with note density because holding an object in working memory longer before needing to use makes it more difficult to use previously-gathered information about the object to help your reading (this is why DT sometimes doesn't make aim as much harder as you'd expect despite having the same patterns and the same visual density of notes at 1.5x speed). However, it's also affected by things other than AR. High SV causes the same exact type of reading issues. Certain patterns (mostly ones containing wider angles with larger spacing) cause the exact same type of reading issues. The same type of reading that goes into being able to play a map at slightly lower AR is present everywhere and to discount it as a part of osu! is to reduce "aim" to "muscle memory". Sure, the purpose of increasing AR (in theory) is to bring the amount of this type of reading required for a map to approximately the same level as the amount of high AR reading required, but being allowed to do so as part of a mod that you want to get ranked as a way of removing "artificial difficulty" is utter nonsense. It's not artificial difficulty if it's half of the real difficulty of what sets the game apart from other games in the genre. Ultimately, most maps that get ranked have AR overtuned if the purpose of choosing an AR is to balance out the reading required across the two types. That's fine for individual maps if mappers want to do that, but that's exactly it - it's something the mapper chooses. If the mapper chooses to put a lower AR on a map, it's putting a form of real aim difficulty into the map that you would allow people to eliminate with this mod.

You're right that people should be able to remove aspects of the game that they don't like - but they shouldn't be able to do it and still have their plays be ranked. Calling it "fixing stupid problems with maps" is attempting to shift the blame from player skill to poor mapping decisions ("help help the circles are too small and I can't aim, this map has a stupid problem!!!"). If a map highlights your weaknesses and you don't like it, just don't play it.

/words
elgen
6 posts
Joined February 2014
elgen
I would love to have this as an unranked mod, or one that halves the total score in a similar way to NF. It would be a nice thing to have to practice higher CS or higher/lower AR and being able to do so in multiplayer.
Froslass
Beatmap Nominator
9,342 posts
Joined July 2008
Froslass

ziin wrote:

Blue Dragon wrote:

why can't you just accept that mappers want you to play the map this way, you're the player, you shouldn't be able to edit it in any way
some may argue that in guitar hero/ddr/stepmania you can change the speed which notes come

but osu! is a different game and you should deal with it
respect the mappers' choice

also, don't ruin old maps, please.
How can you respect the mappers' choice when you use 100% dim? Stop being a hypocrite. Visual settings killed mappers' choice.

I see no problem with this as a ranked mod. 0.3x score, plus/minus any gains from difficulty change and 10% PP, plus/minus any PP gains from the change in difficulty. Players who do not care about ranking (a small minority) will abuse this mod to enjoy the game and they will not affect any rankings other than having a ridiculously deflated rank. Players who do care about ranking (pretty much everyone else) will use this mod to practice/fix stupid problems with maps.
because AR and backgrounds affect the gameplay in the same way :^)
Calls me an hypocrite then proceeds to make one of the... least intelligent posts I've seen.
Let's fix all the stupid things in ranked maps by changing OD/CS/AR! it's not like AR reading has to be a skill at all! It's not like maps with high CS should be properly played, fuck that, let's just make everything easier for the player because this is what a game is about, right?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

GhostFrog wrote:

I already said why it's an abomination.
I guess I want an answer in one or two sentences. You write a story explaining why a ranked mod sucks but didn't explain why the ranked mod is OK (you just said it's OK because it's consistent). It's also a bit strange that you want a mod that is an abomination in your opinion added to the game.

GhostFrog wrote:

Relax is unranked but adds to your playcount (I just checked to make sure) and I assume this would do the same thing - and if it didn't, would that be a problem? To use your words, who does it hurt? This would actually encourage the opposite of what you're saying though - using this mod would be easier than making a diff with altered difficulty settings, so people would have more of their plays count towards their playcount rather than less.
I don't understand this point at all, sorry. Can you be more specific? For example: Ranked Difficulty Mod would ensure that players' accuracies, play counts, and score are accurately recorded. It discourages players from playing unranked which will generally cause skill level to increase without increasing recorded stats, resulting in inaccurate scores. It will not affect the majority of the top 100000 players rankings due to severe PP cuts. Unranked Difficulty Mod (which you support) would promote players to play without adding to their stats. It would essentially bring back spun out as an unranked mod, which was removed for a purpose. Personally I think relax should add to your accuracy, playcount, and total score.

GhostFrog wrote:

"Artificial difficulty" is a fun little buzzword.
Real difficulty is Aim and Rhythm. Everything else is artificial difficulty in my opinion. I think we fundamentally disagree here so it's useless to continue this line of discussion.

GhostFrog wrote:

Let's get on the same page first though. Your "aim is just a click away" thing seems to indicate that you don't think osu! is about aim, but I hope we can agree that it's a legitimate component of osu!.
Yeah, that was a red herring. Aim to me is the ability to move your mouse to the position of the next note. It is strictly 2 dimensional and entirely physical. When your "mental" component affects the ability of a player to see the next note it is made more difficult by a non-physical difficulty, and thus is artificial.

Blue Dragon wrote:

because AR and backgrounds affect the gameplay in the same way :^)
Calls me an hypocrite then proceeds to make one of the... least intelligent posts I've seen.
Please don't use sarcasm (I'm assuming), especially when citing intelligence. That's not an intelligent way to debate.

I can say in all seriousness that AR and backgrounds affect gameplay in the same way: they affect the ability of the player to determine where and when the next note is supposed to be hit. If you disagree with the underlined statement please explain why. This is why I think you are a hypocrite.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
The tl;dr version of why this would be an abomination as a ranked mod is that changing map settings changes the map in ways that mean you're no longer playing the same map. Well, that's true in the case of CS and AR anyway. OD, as I said in my previous post, could in theory be something that gets modified fairly by a mod, but assigning a value to it with the current scoring system would be awkward. HP increase couldn't give you bonus points and still be fair, HP decrease would need to be treated as NF in order to be fair. The reason HR is okay (and I don't think it's well-designed at all, but I don't think it's bad that it exists) is because it's consistent. Either you play the map nomod or you play it flipped with circles at a set size, OD set to a specific number, AR set to a specific number, and HP set to a specific number. Having this as a ranked mod would be a mess of choosing just the right difficulty settings to take advantage of exactly where difficulty spikes either objectively or for that specific person. It would not be possible to make it fair because of how different it would make maps. I want this as an unranked mod because it would be fun and there's no reason not to let people play whatever they want if it's unranked.

There is no such thing as aim that is purely physical and that's the point you're missing about real vs artificial difficulty of AR. If you wanted to minimize the reading difficulty of aim, you would need to set literally every map to AR10 and I can pretty much guarantee you that would not be comfortable to play. The ideal AR for a map for a certain person will balance out the skills required, not minimize either one. If the reading component of aim is "artificial difficulty", then maps you find comfortable to play are comfortable because of "artificial difficulty". You're hiding behind that term and it doesn't mean what you want it to mean. The reading component of aim is necessarily a real part of aim.
Fushimi Rio
Fushimi Rio
Instead of improving their skills, they decide to take liberties with the maps.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

GhostFrog wrote:

Having this as a ranked mod would be a mess of choosing just the right difficulty settings to take advantage of exactly where difficulty spikes either objectively or for that specific person
Let's take Banned Forever to annoy BD:
It's worth ~200 pp nomod, AR8. Today this map wouldn't be ranked due to the low AR.

If I FC this with a ranked AR9 mod on, I would get 20 pp and 10 million ranked score. Anyone with the ability to actually FC this doesn't deserve full credit, just like spun out, nofail, or easy. If a player is this good already, they would get 0 pp as 20 pp is nothing when you can FC 200 pp maps. On the 1% chance they do get pp, it will be a good thing because they're obviously under ranked.

So if this is unranked, it will not affect accuracy or ranked score or PP, but will affect total score and play count. If this is ranked, it will affect accuracy and ranked score (not top 50), total score, and playcount, but not pp. Without this mod, the play will not affect anything and you can't play the map in multiplayer easily. People don't do this much because the process of changing these values is tedious. I agree with you that if it affected PP and top 50 it would be an issue.

I would prefer to not have this mod in the game if it were unranked as it would turn into the old spunout.
haha5957
1,433 posts
Joined July 2010
haha5957
>unranks AR7/8 map because it doesn't make sense

>calls AR a skill thus should not be toggle-able


good contradiction going on in this community.....

idk, either don't force mappers to use high ARs on hard maps OR make ARs toggle-able? I don't care which way you go(well i honestly prefer to have adjustable ARs but not too much)


Either let Extra diff map have AR7 or make AR adjustable. What is a decent AR? that mapper chooses it to be? maybe. But this mapping community obviously dislike AR9▽ on extra diff(even unqualifies it!) and at the same time you are calling AR part of reading skill.........


if AR is also a skill why is AR7 extra diff not rankable?
if AR is just matter of personnel taste why is it not toggle-able?

can anyone answer both at the same time?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

haha5957 wrote:

if AR is also a skill why is AR7 extra diff not rankable?
if AR is just matter of personnel taste why is it not toggle-able?
1) It skews the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy. AR7 extra is not a balanced difficulty, just like easy mod is not a balanced mod.
2) It's not just a matter of personal taste. The powers that be want to assign a score to AR which they can change based on how well the community reads said AR. Any outliers are rewarded.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

haha5957 wrote:

>unranks AR7/8 map because it doesn't make sense

>calls AR a skill thus should not be toggle-able


good contradiction going on in this community.....
You're talking about 2 entirely different groups of people. You will find almost no one who realizes that reading is an actual osu! skill and yet doesn't want ranked maps to be allowed a wider variety of approach rates.

ziin wrote:

1) It skews the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy. AR7 extra is not a balanced difficulty, just like easy mod is not a balanced mod.
Guess we should just unrank all aim-heavy maps since they skew the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy.

A map with lower AR still requires rhythm and accuracy unless you're using EZ mod because it halves the OD. You just, y'know, need to be good enough to play the map in order for rhythm and accuracy to matter just like with any other form of difficulty. "Not a balanced difficulty" is such a bs excuse for anything. I assume you also never play any stream-heavy maps because they don't have "balanced difficulty" - your stream speed/stamina needs to be so much better than your aim needs to be in order to play them! But that's okay, right? You're just looking for any excuse to never have to play low AR, but I'll let you in on a little secret: you already don't have to and no one gives a fuck if you don't as long as you shut up about it. Now if you could be rational enough to stop insisting that you be given tools to get points for never playing anything below AR15, it would be greatly appreciated.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

GhostFrog wrote:

You're talking about 2 entirely different groups of people. You will find almost no one who realizes that reading is an actual osu! skill and yet doesn't want ranked maps to be allowed a wider variety of approach rates.
lol I'm one of those people

GhostFrog wrote:

Guess we should just unrank all aim-heavy maps since they skew the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy.
Only the qualified ones. Ranked ones have to stay, but the acceptable difficulty of AR is much lower than the acceptable difficuty of rhythm/aim. Rather than tell me why I'm wrong you could explain why ar7 extra isn't rankable. Remember that you don't rank any maps.

GhostFrog wrote:

Now if you could be rational enough to stop insisting that you be given tools to get points for never playing anything below AR15, it would be greatly appreciated.
Don't put words into my mouth. We don't disagree that this mod should exist.

The more I think rationally about this the more I think it doesn't matter. Ranked score doesn't matter at all (and would be barely affected). PP matters, but wouldn't be affected 99% of the time. I have no idea how accuracy is affected, but it's probably weighted with PP, which wouldn't be affected 99% of the time.

Literally the only thing that matters is that unranked mods are bad, and that topic has been beaten to death with spun out.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

ziin wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

Literally the only thing that matters is that unranked mods are bad, and that topic has been beaten to death with spun out.
Unranked mods can add to playcount now. Check your playcount, play a map with relax, check it again. I thought playcount was the issue with spun out back when it was unranked.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
It was play count and accuracy. Since Accuracy is based on pp, then it only affects ranked score if ranked and would only be in the top 50 on maps people don't want to play because of the difficulty settings.

I don't care anymore as it doesn't matter. I just know that in the past unranked mods were requested and always denied.
haha5957
1,433 posts
Joined July 2010
haha5957

ziin wrote:

haha5957 wrote:

if AR is also a skill why is AR7 extra diff not rankable?
if AR is just matter of personnel taste why is it not toggle-able?
1) It skews the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy. AR7 extra is not a balanced difficulty, just like easy mod is not a balanced mod.
2) It's not just a matter of personal taste. The powers that be want to assign a score to AR which they can change based on how well the community reads said AR. Any outliers are rewarded.
Lower AR on insane+ diff means hard to read. right? Bascially, AR is there to help you play if you see AR as just a tool to balance the difficulty out. like, extreme hard maps should have at least 9.0AR or even 9.5AR, and lower diffs should have low ARs. Correct?

Extremely hard AR8 maps looks little weird these days. Insane diffs should have high AR, easy diffs should have lower AR because AR is to balance difficulty out, pretty much to help people. (I mean, AR9 on easy map is hard and AR6 on insane map is even harder!)

If you agree on this you should definitely agree on making AR both adjustable and rankable. Remember that AR6 is extremely hard on insane diff but makes sense on easy/normal diffs. AR is just a balancing tool here.

Now however, AR8 on extra maps makes it harder to read, and AR10 is just little too hard for some people who are not used to it. Thus, ARs are skills. Even though myself can play 7.0☆+ maps pretty ok with AR 9, most of them are AR10(can't play at all with it). so I need to improve my skill so i can read AR10!

People like me asking for adjustable AR is just a noob who can't read AR10! I should stop crying and get used to high ARs.

If you agree on this you should definitely agree on making AR7 extra diff rankable. Don't even say reading high AR is skill but low AR isn't here.

What are you?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

haha5957 wrote:

What are you?
your 2 options are not mutually exclusive, so I think that most people in osu say neither. Also your logic that if I agree with A, I should agree with B is flawed.

I don't agree that lower AR on insane+ means hard to read in all cases. Most cases involve gobs of overlaps and strange patterns that only make sense on high AR, but I can play at least one approved AR3 insane map on hidden, and another AR0 Hard (unranked). They would be harder for me to play on higher ARs.

Usually when something is deemed "too hard" it is not rankable. AR7 Extra is usually too hard. You also have to take into consideration that when something has too low AR, it stops being fun for a lot of people. I think this mod would make the game more fun for more people, but the people who have something and have worked hard for it don't want it to go to waste (I suppose).

I thought I explained that well when I answered your questions, but I guess not.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
ziin, what would you suggest as the score multiplier for this mod if it were ranked? You mentioned a flat .3x multiplier, but that seems pretty unfair when you can, for example, use this mod exactly the same as EZ which has a .5x multiplier (but of course setting it to .5x would be bad because you can easily choose settings that would make the map easier than EZ mod). Probably some sort of scaling depending on how much you change map settings? What do you think?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

GhostFrog wrote:

ziin, what would you suggest as the score multiplier for this mod if it were ranked? You mentioned a flat .3x multiplier, but that seems pretty unfair when you can, for example, use this mod exactly the same as EZ which has a .5x multiplier (but of course setting it to .5x would be bad because you can easily choose settings that would make the map easier than EZ mod). Probably some sort of scaling depending on how much you change map settings? What do you think?
I say 0.3 because Ez is 0.5. Ideally easy should just let you choose difficulty settings with the defaults set as the current Ez mod.

However, since ranking has significantly changed since this discussion first started, it matters less. You said that hr is okay only because it sets everything as a standard and I agree with that. The same goes for easy,so if this is a separate mod, Ez needs to grant more.

I like where you're headed with the scaling idea, but I really think it shouldn't affect top 50 scores. And that sounds like it would allow people to set everything to 10 except cs while making top 50. As I said before, I don't care if it's ranked or unranked anymore as neither will affect accuracy play count or pp, which are the important stats.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS
(Who cares about accuracy and play count wtf.)


Just make it unranked.
Last edited by ARRACHEZ VOUS , edited 2 times in total.
-Maus-
571 posts
Joined August 2013
-Maus-
Am I the only one who lost track of that arguement above lol
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

ziin wrote:

It was play count and accuracy. Since Accuracy is based on pp, then it only affects ranked score if ranked and would only be in the top 50 on maps people don't want to play because of the difficulty settings.

I don't care anymore as it doesn't matter. I just know that in the past unranked mods were requested and always denied.
Just to clarify, if this was ranked then the player would get MORE pp for increasing od/cs/ar. Some of these things may in fact be making the map easier for the player. I don't know if you follow pp much or the ideology behind it, but it's intention is to be absolute (as in any set of circles will always give the same pp regardless of the mods applied). This mod would make abuse of the pp system relatively easy. Alternatively you want a new sub par mod that receives huge incursions for it's use for pretty much no reason other than "it's breaking ranking"; in which case it might as well be unranked, arguing that accuracy from having it be unranked matters is wrong because to make this mod fit in there would have to be pp reduction for it's use, in the case that the reduction is so adequte then the mod will never provide enough pp to significantly alter people's accuracy.

Making this ranked is AWFUL for pp, it DOESN'T effect accuracy in ANY case unless you create a mod where pp scales normally from map difficulty (sadly pp isn't perfect, there are map settings that can inflate pp to far beyond what it should be.

To argue that SBs and BGs effects the map as much as AR just makes me feel like you're joking. I can't even think of a reply to that.

Extremely hard AR8 maps looks little weird these days. Insane diffs should have high AR, easy diffs should have lower AR because AR is to balance difficulty out, pretty much to help people. (I mean, AR9 on easy map is hard and AR6 on insane map is even harder!)

If you agree on this you should definitely agree on making AR both adjustable and rankable. Remember that AR6 is extremely hard on insane diff but makes sense on easy/normal diffs. AR is just a balancing tool here.
AR shouldn't be adjustable BECAUSE ranked maps are already fitted to the players. Can't play the meta maps? YOUR fault, it's META, it's not like it's a "weird skill". For the maps with challenging approach rates, now you need that reading skill that oh so want to ignore. Stop playing out of your comfort zone and use hr if you can't handle low AR, use easy mod if you can't handle high AR. Your hand should NOT be held, this isn't hello kitty online circle clicker. You make this out to be a black and white situation, as mentioned by ziin it's not so clear.

ziin wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

ziin, what would you suggest as the score multiplier for this mod if it were ranked? You mentioned a flat .3x multiplier, but that seems pretty unfair when you can, for example, use this mod exactly the same as EZ which has a .5x multiplier (but of course setting it to .5x would be bad because you can easily choose settings that would make the map easier than EZ mod). Probably some sort of scaling depending on how much you change map settings? What do you think?
I say 0.3 because Ez is 0.5. Ideally easy should just let you choose difficulty settings with the defaults set as the current Ez mod.

However, since ranking has significantly changed since this discussion first started, it matters less. You said that hr is okay only because it sets everything as a standard and I agree with that. The same goes for easy,so if this is a separate mod, Ez needs to grant more.

I like where you're headed with the scaling idea, but I really think it shouldn't affect top 50 scores. And that sounds like it would allow people to set everything to 10 except cs while making top 50. As I said before, I don't care if it's ranked or unranked anymore as neither will affect accuracy play count or pp, which are the important stats.
I'll be honest here, the fact that you want to have this mod appear on the ranking boards (potentially beating more impressive nomod scores) is the only reason I don't want it ranked. 0.3* guarantees nothing, this mod would only effect the hardest of maps in the game (which are already screwed up enough from halftime). I appreciate that you want to balance the mod but mods that make maps genuinely easier are VERY hard to balance with the way score in this game works.

A lot of this is subjective so here are the objective parts: This can't be implemented as a ranked mod without either harming pp or by being so useless that it's essentially an unranked mod (that plagues the top50's of hard maps with little FC's). This CAN be implemented while taking into account playcount, regardless of ranked status. This CAN'T really effect accuracy regardless of ranked status.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

jesus1412 wrote:

To argue that SBs and BGs effects the map as much as AR just makes me feel like you're joking. I can't even think of a reply to that.
I never argued that they affect the map to the same degree, just that they affect the map in the same way: they limit the players ability to know when and where the next note is. If they didn't then everyone would be playing with background on and skins that included 300 hits.

Everything else I agree with more or less except for the use of the verb "to effect". Hooray English.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

ziin wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

To argue that SBs and BGs effects the map as much as AR just makes me feel like you're joking. I can't even think of a reply to that.
I never argued that they affect the map to the same degree, just that they affect the map in the same way: they limit the players ability to know when and where the next note is. If they didn't then everyone would be playing with background on and skins that included 300 hits.

Everything else I agree with more or less except for the use of the verb "to effect". Hooray English.
Just considering further, maybe ranked with a 0x multiplier could work, that way people can submit visible scores with it for mod specific leaderboards.
xxxafiqxxx
xxxafiqxxx
._.
Sebaex
99 posts
Joined July 2014
Sebaex
The open source proyect (opsu!) have that option on all the elements (Ar/Od/Cs/Hp).
If osu! have that option, can be a perfect way to practise a map if you have problems with something from a song.
Obiously, if you modify something, the play need to be unranked
Dephix
86 posts
Joined February 2015
Dephix
im neutral on this
Last edited by Dephix , edited 1 time in total.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Dephix wrote:

why not ranked like in Hexis?
Discussed already, read through earlier posts.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

jesus1412 wrote:

Dephix wrote:

why not ranked like in Hexis?
Discussed already, read through earlier posts.
actually it wasn't. It works in hexis because the game was designed that way. osu! only recently started allowing people to change/customize things. The community is fairly heavily entrenched in its methods and osu! is much more competitive than hexis.

Hexis is also accuracy based, whereas osu! is almost entirely combo based.
agubelu
93 posts
Joined August 2014
agubelu
Free AR should absolutely be a thing

I don't know if AR is involved in PP calculation, but anyway:

If it isn't, why shouldn't we be able to play in whichever AR we like?
If it is, why is it? High AR isn't necessarily harder and low AR isn't necessarily easier
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

agubelu wrote:

Free AR should absolutely be a thing

I don't know if AR is involved in PP calculation, but anyway:

If it isn't, why shouldn't we be able to play in whichever AR we like?
If it is, why is it? High AR isn't necessarily harder and low AR isn't necessarily easier
Some posts discussing this are on this page. I'll argue further but I'd rather not repeat myself more.
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Adjustable has been requested before
HP means nothing in terms of difficulty/pp
CS only makes maps harder/easier (so it's fine if implemented)
OD can give HUGE amounts of pp if set to 10 due to INSANELY high part of accuracy

Oh, to those people saying it'll be UNranked, why can't you just use editor?
I'm fine with it being ranked, but I'm scared for the OD
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS

baraatje123 wrote:

Oh, to those people saying it'll be UNranked, why can't you just use editor?
Why can't they just make a mod ?


Using the editor for each maps is pretty annoying and you have to update them when you want the changes back.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

baraatje123 wrote:

HP means nothing in terms of difficulty/pp
Lowering HP allows passing unpassable maps on HR.

baraatje123 wrote:

CS only makes maps harder/easier (so it's fine if implemented)
CS is the OD of aiming difficulty

baraatje123 wrote:

Oh, to those people saying it'll be UNranked, why can't you just use editor?
Multiplayer

baraatje123 wrote:

I'm fine with it being ranked, but I'm scared for the OD
OD is just a judge distance and has a miserable effect on HP. Ideally every map would be played on the highest OD you can pass with decent accuracy/survival.

If this is ranked, it will be fair because it's added to everyone. The only thing it detrimentally affects are the mapmakers, who have already been detrimentally affected by the addition of display properties.

It would be interesting if you could easily storyboard a custom AR quickly. The only real isssue would be sliders showing up over approach/hitcircles.
Noctali
84 posts
Joined October 2013
Noctali

Mayu Watanabe wrote:

baraatje123 wrote:

Oh, to those people saying it'll be UNranked, why can't you just use editor?
Why can't they just make a mod ?


Using the editor for each maps is pretty annoying
It's just boring. :roll:
Yumikoi
75 posts
Joined January 2015
Yumikoi
Well, this would certainly revive lot of the old ranked maps that just have the wrong AR (like ar7 4.5star 200bpm maps etc)
Generally allowing AR change in smaller numbers than what HR does would be good, I'd love to be able to bump all 140+bpm maps to ar9 and all 180+bpm maps to 9.5 instead of only having the option of either low AR or AR10(hr).
But I think it shouldn't give any score multiplier for increasing AR nor reduce for for lowering it.

For HP, while I would appreciate lowering HP on some of the maps I can't pass, there already is NF for that and that one is pretty well balanced (0.5 score and -10%pp). While often even 0.5HP can be the difference between passing and failing a map, it would essential do the same thing as NF - a binary pass or die scenario. So I'd say there is no need for that.

CS - allowing increase of CS would be good and it could even give a bit of extra score multiplier, lowering CS should be penalized a lot though, there are map that are mainly hard thanks to their CS so allowing getting top ranks on those by lowering CS would be bad.

OD - increase of OD has no point and should not award anything extra, it doesn't make anything more "comfortable" to play like the other stats. Lowering OD could be a thing but just like CS heavily penalized (or even unranked to avoid the free SS's)
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

SteveRowland wrote:

But I think it shouldn't give any score multiplier for increasing AR nor reduce for for lowering it.
"I want a difficulty-reducing mod that doesn't lower my score." AR greatly affects how a map plays. If a map was made to be played on AR8 and you can't read it well enough to play it, you shouldn't be given the option to just change it. I've argued it at length in this thread. AR plays a huge factor in the aim component of the game.

Anyway, unranked would be great for that. Eliminates the need to have AR-changed versions of maps sitting around and makes spectating/multiplayer easier when trying to play them.

p.s. AR9 on 140bpm? What the heck is the current generation of players being raised on that AR9 is needed for something that slow?

For HP, while I would appreciate lowering HP on some of the maps I can't pass, there already is NF for that and that one is pretty well balanced (0.5 score and -10%pp). While often even 0.5HP can be the difference between passing and failing a map, it would essential do the same thing as NF - a binary pass or die scenario. So I'd say there is no need for that.
Agreed. Might be fun to play around with as an unranked thing (people could change Airman's drain to a reasonable number and see how hard it "should" be to pass!), but as a ranked mod, it should probably be equivalent to nofail and therefore pointless outside of extremely silly bragging purposes ("I didn't need nofail! I could pass the map just fine on hp0~~~").

CS - allowing increase of CS would be good and it could even give a bit of extra score multiplier, lowering CS should be penalized a lot though, there are map that are mainly hard thanks to their CS so allowing getting top ranks on those by lowering CS would be bad.
You kind of hit on the difficult thing about changing cs here - cs often determines how a map or how its hard parts play out. Some patterns that are difficult at the cs chosen for a map may become absolutely trivial if you lower the cs juuuuuust enough and penalizing properly is basically impossible with the way multipliers work now without intentionally overtuning. This brings back something I've said repeatedly in this thread - hard rock is a TERRIBLE mess of a mod, but it's okayish (and the game is probably better for its existence) because it's standardized. Either you play the map or you play a version of the map with a specific different circle size (and AR, OD, HP) for 1.06x the points. Take it or leave it. Implementing user-chosen CS opens up weird edge cases of trying to change CS to exactly the right value to just barely not ruin the map and I don't think that's a good thing for the game. A fun thing to play around with on an unranked mod (which is exactly what this should be), but a really silly thing imo to have as part of the competitive aspect of the game.

OD - increase of OD has no point and should not award anything extra, it doesn't make anything more "comfortable" to play like the other stats. Lowering OD could be a thing but just like CS heavily penalized (or even unranked to avoid the free SS's)
OD is the one that would probably make the most sense as a ranked mod since OD doesn't change how the map plays outside of notelock scenarios (or if your timing is so early or late that it causes you to miss notes), but it would be another balancing nightmare. If you increase the OD on an all-slider map, you've increased the difficulty by a trivial amount, for example. If you increase the OD on a really fast map, you might suddenly find it possible to pass due to decreased notelock. Overall, would, like the others, be best as an unranked mod.



In asking for this (or components of it) as a ranked mod, you're asking for a more messed-up version of hard rock, which is already a really messy mod that changes map settings in a way that's arbitrary relative to the map (not arbitrary relative to the map settings but you're playing the map, not its settings) in such a way that its difficulty boost is inconsistent enough to sometimes cause a map to be easier for players. I hope you understand just how crazy that is. A mod that would let you tune map settings to exact values you want would be so much worse. HR is only really palatable because either it's on or it isn't. Having a mod that would allow you to turn HR halfway on or to turn it on twice over or to have certain components of it on or anything in-between would be terrible. Needs to be unranked for sure.
Noctali
84 posts
Joined October 2013
Noctali
Why are you all struggling about those mods being ranked ? Man, who cares if it's not ?

Personnaly, I just believe that such an option should have been available in the game from the beginning. I don't want it to be ranked, there's just no need to it. I think that I, as well as all the other people who upvoted this request, just want an option to play custom difficulties without the need to create it by using the editor.

It's so annoying that we're not able to do it without having to go through all the editor process. Of course it's easy to do, still, it's only viable as a solo player. But then, what about multiplayer ? Parameters doesn't always fit what everyone's able to do... It always leads to a forced switch, which could have been avoided if the players were able to change parameters in mods. Making multiplayer enjoyable for everyone, not only for those who are experienced enough to play X beatmap. Of course we could practice, but sometimes you just want to have fun, here, now.

It wouldn't even bother beatmappers, neither break the rankings, it would just be pleasurable for everyone. :)

Once again, who cares if it's ranked or not ? Don't you all just want to have FUN ? You don't need PP when you have FUN. :D
Froslass
Beatmap Nominator
9,342 posts
Joined July 2008
Froslass

GhostFrog wrote:

p.s. AR9 on 140bpm? What the heck is the current generation of players being raised on that AR9 is needed for something that slow?
Quick reminder that AR9 is already considered unreadable by most players because of being too slow, at least 9.5 is required to be 'playable' now.
Noctali
84 posts
Joined October 2013
Noctali
Just want to add some reasons why such an option would be awesome.

1. Practice

You know, sometimes you just want to practice.

Though you may be able to do so by using mods such as HardRock or Easy, what would happen if you just want to practice a single parameter ? You only have two options : 1. Create custom difficulties; 2. Looking for maps with original settings that fits what you're searching for. Well, doesn't it sound very boring and/or limited ?

Wouldn't it be easier if you could just set it ON when you start practicing, then OFF when you're done ? Not only would it give you many more possibilities, but it would also grant you an amazing amount of time, that you wouldn't have to waste creating/deleting custom difficulties.

I think we can all agree that the editor doesn't stand to be used as a cheap practice mode. Making CS/HP/AR/OD toggle-able in mods would be a way better way to allow player to practice.


2. The option already exists but is way too much time-consuming

- Changing parameters can be done by using the editor
- Custom difficulties in multiplayer is done by sending a custom file to the whole room (though it doesn't allow players to chose what settings they want to play with)

As I said, everything is already merely available in-game. Still, it's time-consuming as hell, not very handy, and lacks possibilities.



^Dumb design, but that's what I have in mind. Would be toggle-able in the menu by clicking a gearwheel icon or whatever. :D
Yumikoi
75 posts
Joined January 2015
Yumikoi
Well I would be fine with it being unranked if it wasn't like the currently unranked mods - those (auto and relax) don't even show you your acc and stuff during the play, you can't see misses etc. And also I would like to have local leaderboards at least with this, just like unranked maps (edited to comfortable AR etc) do.
It really helps practice when you can see how much you are improving over your older results. So if you can make these things work with an unranked mode, I'd be fine with it since it would save me time going to editor to change these things and help with spectating etc.


OT:

GhostFrog wrote:

p.s. AR9 on 140bpm? What the heck is the current generation of players being raised on that AR9 is needed for something that slow?
I blame mappers :P When i started playing earlier this year, easy and normal difficulties were too easy while hard were too hard so I went with normal+HR and then soon switched to normal+HRDT which is for most normals ar9 (as their base is 5) xD And then I just kinda transitioned into insanes at ar9.
Only once you increase your collection of songs you start finding the old songs that have lower AR and are still good maps, but its already too late as if 99% of stuff you play is ar9, its just a mess and unfun to read anything lower, you are just not used to it. And yes practicing lower ARs might be good for you in the long run but when its just not fun, is it really worth it? So yeah, just have mappers put some difficulty between normal and hard so new people don't have to play HRDT and learn the bad habit of fast AR :P

And second reason... it's like really exciting playing higher ARs (explains the HR popularity.. that or people want free PP xD), maybe I like it higher as I come from long history of twitch shooters (which btw don't help you at all to become good at osu :() so I like putting my reflexes into the front lines. Unlike lower AR which tests your ability to read like when you read note sheets for playing instruments. Its like a completely different game for me playing low or high AR and I just really enjoy the high ones, that's all there is to it.

Blue Dragon wrote:

Quick reminder that AR9 is already considered unreadable by most players because of being too slow, at least 9.5 is required to be 'playable' now.
this guy gets it! Now I just hope mappers start putting 9.5 even for 4.5star insanes xD
Noctali
84 posts
Joined October 2013
Noctali

SteveRowland wrote:

Well I would be fine with it being unranked if it wasn't like the currently unranked mods - those (auto and relax) don't even show you your acc and stuff during the play, you can't see misses etc. And also I would like to have local leaderboards at least with this, just like unranked maps (edited to comfortable AR etc) do.
It really helps practice when you can see how much you are improving over your older results. So if you can make these things work with an unranked mode, I'd be fine with it since it would save me time going to editor to change these things and help with spectating etc.
Would make sense, indeed (even though imo Relax & Auto-pilot are no good practice mods, or at least Relax is but the second isn't...).
That topic's already being discussed here : Autopilot/Relax saved in local scores

Blue Dragon wrote:

Quick reminder that AR9 is already considered unreadable by most players because of being too slow, at least 9.5 is required to be 'playable' now.
Depends on the person, I guess. Some people like lower ARs, gameplay isn't even the same depending on what AR's used. I find myself being well better at playing some beatmaps with AR9.3/9.5 than with AR9, but I'm only satisfied when I hit a good score on the lower one. Harder to read but better to practice with, since it helps being able to see multiple hit-objects.
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan
Peppy pls !
Tsunderplane
47 posts
Joined November 2014
Tsunderplane

Kynan wrote:

Peppy pls !
same tbh
Fredy
26 posts
Joined November 2014
Fredy
How this can have 1400 points?! This is bad idea... First, the score multiplier for each combination... There are a lot if you can change it. Second, you are changing a map that someone maked so for anything, i think that changing the sr, cs of the map is like not caring and discarded the work of other. Third, this isn't too important but make a good rank in the map will be too hard a cause of bigger scored of top players.
Ps: sort if im bad expressed or wrong sentences, my English bad
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan

Fredyx2000 wrote:

How this can have 1400 points?! This is bad idea... First, the score multiplier for each combination... There are a lot if you can change it. Second, you are changing a map that someone maked so for anything, i think that changing the sr, cs of the map is like not caring and discarded the work of other. Third, this isn't too important but make a good rank in the map will be too hard a cause of bigger scored of top players.
Ps: sort if im bad expressed or wrong sentences, my English bad
How does changing the AR/OD affect the mapper's work at all ? Even today some mappers make maps that are over 5 stars and put OD7 on it. I find that really fuckin' stupid and a map that is that hard should AT LEAST be OD8. So allowing players to change that and get the deserved points out of it should be a thing.

As for the AR I'm part of the "it's preference so should be adjustable by the player" team but salty people are just gonna at me with the "haha you can't read noob" since they got no argument. Any argument could be countered by asking them why mania allows people to choose their scrolling speed but they would just say "meh different game so not comparable" but that's, again, not an argument since you could force them to use a fixed scrollspeed chosen by the mapper as well, but that would make what is already a flowed game mode even less enjoyable.

So IMHO, CS/AR/OD should be adjustable, and that wouldn't affect any mapper whatsoever and it would just make EVERYONE happy. Except maybe the salty people playing EZNF all day and braging about how "good" they are at "reading"...
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
w00t Kynan, did you ever actually make a map yourself?
The chosen AR does affect the mapping process. Patterns and arrangements are mapped with a certain AR in mind and a different AR might lead to a pattern playing differently.
If you want to ignore the mapper's creative work you can still go into the editor and do your stuff.

If you're playing the game for pp you should just skip on maps that don't give you the "deserved points". None forces you to play these and they didn't get mapped with the sole purpose to be farmable for pp by some overly competitive players that can only be satisfied if their big number grows even bigger.
It is widely known that pp is only a mediocre reflection of skill. It can NOT be the solution to touch ranked/approved works to fix a problem of the pp-system.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
Oh hey, this thread again.

Still great as unranked mod. Still awful as ranked mod.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS

Endaris wrote:

The chosen AR does affect the mapping process. Patterns and arrangements are mapped with a certain AR in mind and a different AR might lead to a pattern playing differently.
If you want to ignore the mapper's creative work you can still go into the editor and do your stuff.

This is what mods do, yet people don't argue about " ignoring mapper's creative work ".

  1. Mods actually ignore the mapper's creative work and we care about it, they should be unranked with the adjustable settings.
  2. Mods acutally ignore the mapper's creative work but we don't give a f*ck so we should have adjustable settings.
  3. Mods do not ignore the mapper's creative work and we should have adjustable settings.
  4. Adjustable settings would cause balancing issues with the ranking, we should keep it as an unranked mods at first.
  5. Adjustable settings would not cause balancing issues with the ranking, we should make it rankable.
  6. This feature is useless and people don't need it.
  7. F*ck these people.
Last edited by ARRACHEZ VOUS , edited 12 times in total.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
I love it when people quote only a part of your post and ignore the overall message just to nitpick at a few certain sentences.
Overall I agree with GhostFrog here...
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS
It's basically what every people that lack of argument say.
I was pointing what was worth pointing in your post, don't try to act like you did not write it.

You should write a personal diary if you don't want people to respond at what your writing.

The rest of your post is meaningless.

You're telling people should go for the PP maps if they want PP, I can't agree with that.
PP mapping is killing the creativity.

Instead, we could make every maps playable for everyone.
Last edited by ARRACHEZ VOUS , edited 2 times in total.
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan
I was talking about the PP as a relation to the difficulty of the map and the OD the mapper chose to put.
I'm just saying that it's really stupid, to not say retarded (oops), to use OD7 or OD7.5 or whatever, anything under OD8 for EXTRA DIFFS. If you guys can't understand this and just go on about "OH HE SAID PP PP PP AH FARMER DOESN'T KNOW MAPPING AH PP PP" instead of trying to understand what I mean, then you're missing the point here.

And about the "ignoring the mapper's creative work", please, the mods are here for a reason. Why would allowing people to adjust settings like mods already do change anything ? The mapper's creative work is the way he places the circles, not the OD he chooses to put on the map, what the hell ?! And especially in the case of hard maps where you HAVE to use high OD to avoid note-lock and stuff, it has nothing to do with where the mapper puts his circles.
And that applies to AR as well, if a mapper decides to go full retard and map 200+BPM jumps for 5 mins and puts it AR8 what would you say ? "Oh damn nice creative job!" fuck no, it will just make it really stupid and annoying to play.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
OD is a different thing and it might occur that OD is set too low and provokes a lot of notelock which should ideally be adressed during modding.
That has nothing to do with the fact that the problem is the design of the pp-system. It just doesn't make any sense to do a workaround that affects how a map plays.
OD/HP are really the stats where I wouldn't care much if they could be altered well we got NF for HP-issues but I would really dislike a possible toggle for AR and CS.

My reply was also more about that the arguments in that specific post of yours were plain stupid :P
Same with your example:
"if a mapper decides to go full retard"
yeah, then his map hopefully won't get ranked anyway
vitail
127 posts
Joined May 2015
vitail
i agree
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan

Endaris wrote:

yeah, then his map hopefully won't get ranked anyway
Yeah that's the problem, they get ranked. And also that is preference as well since some people would be able to play it and other won't, that's why I say that AR is preference. A BAT would say "yeah sure why not rank that it'll be a challenge for some people" while other would be like "oh hell no wtf this needs at least ar9.5", it's totally preference.
cr1mmy
194 posts
Joined April 2011
cr1mmy
also this link should be there t/334458
supporting this request with all my soul <3
Gnoske
51 posts
Joined April 2014
Gnoske
nevernevernever ranked
this is easy to do unranked just make a new diff
Kunino Sagiri
272 posts
Joined January 2012
Kunino Sagiri
So how is this mod disrespecting anything? It's not like the mapper's suggested CS/AR/OD/HP would be ignored.

The only issues I see here are the calculations and plays would be greatly variated that it'd be too hard to determine which play/s is good in the eyes of a new player.
CelegaS
484 posts
Joined April 2012
CelegaS
For ranked score, just ar should be toggle-able in mods others will impact mapping style, pattern and gameplay. But there should be no problem about changing CS/HP/AR/OD if it make score unrankable but you can already do this with the editor.

We can debate for age on this but finally only peppy will really decide to implement that. Like for implementing score V2, if we do a poll and like 100k player answer and there is a 80% NO for this implementation I think he will change his mind to not implement but I'm not sure.

And I don't think peppy will be agree to add this possibility of change for ranked, maybe even for AR it will be disagree.

We should wait an answer from peppy but I'm note sure if he reads that much this forum (that's my feel). He has already tons of thing to do with osu!
And there is many people waiting some old feature requests without any answer from peppy. We have just to wait now. I think everything has be already said.
alphyyy_
9 posts
Joined August 2015
alphyyy_
Would be nice, I could play my AR8 maps on AR9 because that's easier too read, for me at least.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

CelegaS wrote:

For ranked score, just ar should be toggle-able in mods others will impact mapping style, pattern and gameplay.
AR impacts gameplay too.

something something unranked mod pls
Jerome
96 posts
Joined October 2013
Jerome
Depends how much people want to keep "reading" as a skill in the game. Some people have great reading on low ARs with lots of notes on the screen, some people are good at reading very fast approach rates (like Kynan). I would be all for being able to set the AR to whatever you want as it doesn't affect pp in any way, though obviously changing OD or CS would have an impact.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS

Jerome wrote:

Depends how much people want to keep "reading" as a skill in the game. Some people have great reading on low ARs with lots of notes on the screen, some people are good at reading very fast approach rates (like Kynan). I would be all for being able to set the AR to whatever you want as it doesn't affect pp in any way, though obviously changing OD or CS would have an impact.
This is what I don't understand.

Why you can't set the AR yourself if the AR is not recognized as a skill since he does not have weight in the PP calculation ?

Or maybe AR is actually weighted but the star rating do not change ?
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
AR has an actual influence on pp.
AR below 7 and AR above 10.5(or something around that) give extra-pp.
No influence on SR though.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS
I see, thanks.
sneeze
2 posts
Joined December 2014
sneeze
would be cool if it has a SEVERE decrease in multiplier. like 0.1-0.5 depending on number ofc.

imho it shouldn't be something people can use as an actual playstyle because someone can just take a 1 star map and put everything on highest and farm.

AND cs10 scores wouldnt be as impressive

other than that it would be cook i guess
Nerthar
67 posts
Joined May 2014
Nerthar
This would be very interesting, but I wonder if changing OD/CS on the map would change the pp it actually gives, this could be even more interesting for people that are able to play very high CS such as 7
Hollow Delta
793 posts
Joined March 2015
Hollow Delta
Sorry, but I don't agree with this.

To change just 1 individual stat like this completely takes the uniqueness out of a map. When a mapper creates a map, the stats work together to create a unique experience. To change one of them takes away whatever makes that map special. You might argue mods like Hardrock and Doubletime do this, but they don't change the map at all. HR and DT don't change, but rather they amplify what the map has to offer. They still preserve what makes the map unique / difficult while remaining fun for the players. Not only would this completely ruin the way mapping is done, it would only encourage more generic plays. How exciting would it be to see every map with cs4 and ar9? Nothing exciting to see anymore, is there?

Every map would in a sense become a pp map, because the player will just take away whatever makes that map special or hard to make it easier for themselves. The point of maps with unique stats is to create these styles, to remove that purpose only makes osu more generic.
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan
TIL the only think that prevents people from farming is the AR and CS.

This is ONLY true for AR10.5-11 because those ARs are usually almost unreadable, but ASIDE OF THAT, your argument just doesn't work. How does changing the OD make the map different ? Or the HP ?
The very VERY rare maps that actually use a very specific AR and CS are maps that don't even give PP in the first place so it would makes them easier yes, but it won't turn said maps into farm maps.

And if people "don't wanna have fun" by putting everything on CS4 AR9, I guess it's their choice, which is still a better choice than the mapper's who most of the time (for kinda hard and hard maps at least) can't even play his own maps.
Hollow Delta
793 posts
Joined March 2015
Hollow Delta

Kynan wrote:

TIL the only think that prevents people from farming is the AR and CS.

This is ONLY true for AR10.5-11 because those ARs are usually almost unreadable, but ASIDE OF THAT, your argument just doesn't work. How does changing the OD make the map different ? Or the HP ?
The very VERY rare maps that actually use a very specific AR and CS are maps that don't even give PP in the first place so it would makes them easier yes, but it won't turn said maps into farm maps.

And if people "don't wanna have fun" by putting everything on CS4 AR9, I guess it's their choice, which is still a better choice than the mapper's who most of the time (for kinda hard and hard maps at least) can't even play his own maps.
Actually od and hp affect the map greatly. A mapper chooses these stats because they want their map to feel a certain way. These can also be a mapper's trademark *Monstrata with OD8.7 for example. A mapper doesn't need to be able to play their map to understand why it's good, but that topic's for another day.
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan
How the FUCK is OD8.7 a monstrata trademark ??? He puts OD>8 on his maps because unlike the other dumb PP mappers who use an OD way too low compared to the AR, he knows how this game works and how easy it is to acc on OD<9.x.
Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum
It's good, but it should also come with individual score/pp multipliers.

Changing ar to below 7 or above 10.3 will increase the multiplier, while to any other will decrease it.
Changing od to anything above the original will increase it. same with cs.
Changing hp should not give any multiplier when changed to a higher one, but should be decreased when lowered.

I think if it will ever get implemented, it will be the most fair way.
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan

Eraser wrote:

Changing ar to below 7 or above 10.3 will increase the multiplier, while to any other will decrease it.
That's not how it should work, it should work around note density not just AR, because this is just personnal preference.
Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum
That is true.
Because it's personal preference, changing it should decrease the multiplier. Because you can choose it to your own liking.
If you don't want score reduction, then peppy should make standard be like mania. Remove AR from the editor completely and make it that the player can choose it themselves.

AR below 7 will clutter the screen, that's why it should keep or increase the multiplier.
And AR above 10.3 is making the notes coming at a very high speed, that is why it should receive bonus (or atleast make the multiplier stay).
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan
For some people ar below 7 is still readable, and for other ar above 10.3 is readable too, especially at high bpm where ar>10.3 actually helps, so those values shouldn't be what determines if the multiplier should change.
_Meep_
1,725 posts
Joined April 2014
_Meep_
This feature is more for 'experimental' purposes
and therefore shouldn't need too much of a debate lol
Hollow Delta
793 posts
Joined March 2015
Hollow Delta

Kynan wrote:

How the FUCK is OD8.7 a monstrata trademark ??? He puts OD>8 on his maps because unlike the other dumb PP mappers who use an OD way too low compared to the AR, he knows how this game works and how easy it is to acc on OD<9.x.
He doesn't have it anymore, but he used to have this 'Mapping Style' section on his userpage, and he claimed 8.7 as his trademark

Aside from that, ranking a map is harder than you think. To say the pp mappers are dumb is pure ignorance. I don't know if you've ever tried mapping, but if you have you'd understand why. OD is subjective too. Not every player is good at od above 8. I remember there was a time where od8 was hard to me, and most likely other players have had that experience.

Also back to the main topic, I'm still sticking with the fact mappers like a certain feel to their maps, hence why they'll choose such od. To change that up is disrespectful to the mapper.
Do The Flop
11 posts
Joined January 2016
Do The Flop
as long that it's isn't ranked or that you can only decrease the CS/HP/AR/OD it's ok for me.

because a feature like that would kill mods system in a certain way (Easy maps AR10/OD10/CS7 ?)

+ I have a question, if it was a "Ranked" thing, how would you calculate the changes as PP?

Exemple : 
CHiCO with HoneyWorks - Pride Kakumei [Darkness] : 
No-mod 98% = 199PP and is CS 4 / AR 9 / OD 8.7 / HP 7 
HR 98% = 254PP and is CS 5.2 / AR 10 / OD 10 / HP 9.8 

Simple Question: What would happen if the user chooses to play this map no-mod with CS 5.2 and AR 9.5?
Or if the user set CS 5.2 / AR 10 / OD 9 / HP 7 ? That's why it shouldn't be ranked.


Note : I know that's 2 years old, i had few things to say about this.
kai99
1,123 posts
Joined July 2013
kai99
Idc if it's ranked or not; I just believe that if this is a feature, it would make practicing so much easier instead of having to change metadata / having to go change in editor.
pykolas
43 posts
Joined January 2015
pykolas
Why this is not a thing yet? I don't want those mods to be ranked, I just want them to be able to set and train with them.
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan
Welcome to oss where instead of allowing players to play with what they want they are forced to use what the mapper and mods who can't even play the map force you to use :D
Froslass
Beatmap Nominator
9,342 posts
Joined July 2008
Froslass
i used to think this suggestion was absolutely garbage but now that i look at it i wouldn't mind it if it was unranked
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan
And a year or two after it's implementation as unranked you wouldn't mind if it was ranked and applied logic PP increase/decrease, but hey we're gonna have to wait for over a year before seeing this implemented... I miss the Hexis days when people went ape shit because they implemented stuff that had been pending here for years and peppy didn't do shit before people started talking about it too much.
We need another one of these over-hyped unofficial games that show how easy it is to implement stuff like that so that peppy finally does something after censoring the name of the game :)
BioZap43
32 posts
Joined January 2018
BioZap43
Yes Apparently This Is A Good Idea, And I Just Duplicated It :v Hope PPY Would Make It XD
Flamenco
44 posts
Joined September 2015
Flamenco
Just in case some other genius who started playing this game a month ago wonders why after so many years it hasn't been implemented yet, here's why:

It's a pretty dumb idea.

Idk if it was already mentioned but if you want to play the map with the custom AR/CS/whatever just make an edit in the editor. Making it ranked is a really bad idea since lower number doesn't mean it's necessarily easier (and higher doesn't mean harder). It's up to a mapper what difficulty settings the map will have.

I still can't believe how many people backed this up smh
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