I would love to have this as an unranked mod, or one that halves the total score in a similar way to NF. It would be a nice thing to have to practice higher CS or higher/lower AR and being able to do so in multiplayer.
because AR and backgrounds affect the gameplay in the same way :^)ziin wrote:
How can you respect the mappers' choice when you use 100% dim? Stop being a hypocrite. Visual settings killed mappers' choice.Blue Dragon wrote:
why can't you just accept that mappers want you to play the map this way, you're the player, you shouldn't be able to edit it in any way
some may argue that in guitar hero/ddr/stepmania you can change the speed which notes come
but osu! is a different game and you should deal with it
respect the mappers' choice
also, don't ruin old maps, please.
I see no problem with this as a ranked mod. 0.3x score, plus/minus any gains from difficulty change and 10% PP, plus/minus any PP gains from the change in difficulty. Players who do not care about ranking (a small minority) will abuse this mod to enjoy the game and they will not affect any rankings other than having a ridiculously deflated rank. Players who do care about ranking (pretty much everyone else) will use this mod to practice/fix stupid problems with maps.
I guess I want an answer in one or two sentences. You write a story explaining why a ranked mod sucks but didn't explain why the ranked mod is OK (you just said it's OK because it's consistent). It's also a bit strange that you want a mod that is an abomination in your opinion added to the game.GhostFrog wrote:
I already said why it's an abomination.
I don't understand this point at all, sorry. Can you be more specific? For example: Ranked Difficulty Mod would ensure that players' accuracies, play counts, and score are accurately recorded. It discourages players from playing unranked which will generally cause skill level to increase without increasing recorded stats, resulting in inaccurate scores. It will not affect the majority of the top 100000 players rankings due to severe PP cuts. Unranked Difficulty Mod (which you support) would promote players to play without adding to their stats. It would essentially bring back spun out as an unranked mod, which was removed for a purpose. Personally I think relax should add to your accuracy, playcount, and total score.GhostFrog wrote:
Relax is unranked but adds to your playcount (I just checked to make sure) and I assume this would do the same thing - and if it didn't, would that be a problem? To use your words, who does it hurt? This would actually encourage the opposite of what you're saying though - using this mod would be easier than making a diff with altered difficulty settings, so people would have more of their plays count towards their playcount rather than less.
Real difficulty is Aim and Rhythm. Everything else is artificial difficulty in my opinion. I think we fundamentally disagree here so it's useless to continue this line of discussion.GhostFrog wrote:
"Artificial difficulty" is a fun little buzzword.
Yeah, that was a red herring. Aim to me is the ability to move your mouse to the position of the next note. It is strictly 2 dimensional and entirely physical. When your "mental" component affects the ability of a player to see the next note it is made more difficult by a non-physical difficulty, and thus is artificial.GhostFrog wrote:
Let's get on the same page first though. Your "aim is just a click away" thing seems to indicate that you don't think osu! is about aim, but I hope we can agree that it's a legitimate component of osu!.
Please don't use sarcasm (I'm assuming), especially when citing intelligence. That's not an intelligent way to debate.Blue Dragon wrote:
because AR and backgrounds affect the gameplay in the same way :^)
Calls me an hypocrite then proceeds to make one of the... least intelligent posts I've seen.
Let's take Banned Forever to annoy BD:GhostFrog wrote:
Having this as a ranked mod would be a mess of choosing just the right difficulty settings to take advantage of exactly where difficulty spikes either objectively or for that specific person
1) It skews the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy. AR7 extra is not a balanced difficulty, just like easy mod is not a balanced mod.haha5957 wrote:
if AR is also a skill why is AR7 extra diff not rankable?
if AR is just matter of personnel taste why is it not toggle-able?
You're talking about 2 entirely different groups of people. You will find almost no one who realizes that reading is an actual osu! skill and yet doesn't want ranked maps to be allowed a wider variety of approach rates.haha5957 wrote:
>unranks AR7/8 map because it doesn't make sense
>calls AR a skill thus should not be toggle-able
good contradiction going on in this community.....
Guess we should just unrank all aim-heavy maps since they skew the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy.ziin wrote:
1) It skews the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy. AR7 extra is not a balanced difficulty, just like easy mod is not a balanced mod.
lol I'm one of those peopleGhostFrog wrote:
You're talking about 2 entirely different groups of people. You will find almost no one who realizes that reading is an actual osu! skill and yet doesn't want ranked maps to be allowed a wider variety of approach rates.
Only the qualified ones. Ranked ones have to stay, but the acceptable difficulty of AR is much lower than the acceptable difficuty of rhythm/aim. Rather than tell me why I'm wrong you could explain why ar7 extra isn't rankable. Remember that you don't rank any maps.GhostFrog wrote:
Guess we should just unrank all aim-heavy maps since they skew the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy.
Don't put words into my mouth. We don't disagree that this mod should exist.GhostFrog wrote:
Now if you could be rational enough to stop insisting that you be given tools to get points for never playing anything below AR15, it would be greatly appreciated.
Unranked mods can add to playcount now. Check your playcount, play a map with relax, check it again. I thought playcount was the issue with spun out back when it was unranked.ziin wrote:
GhostFrog wrote:
Literally the only thing that matters is that unranked mods are bad, and that topic has been beaten to death with spun out.
Lower AR on insane+ diff means hard to read. right? Bascially, AR is there to help you play if you see AR as just a tool to balance the difficulty out. like, extreme hard maps should have at least 9.0AR or even 9.5AR, and lower diffs should have low ARs. Correct?ziin wrote:
1) It skews the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy. AR7 extra is not a balanced difficulty, just like easy mod is not a balanced mod.haha5957 wrote:
if AR is also a skill why is AR7 extra diff not rankable?
if AR is just matter of personnel taste why is it not toggle-able?
2) It's not just a matter of personal taste. The powers that be want to assign a score to AR which they can change based on how well the community reads said AR. Any outliers are rewarded.
your 2 options are not mutually exclusive, so I think that most people in osu say neither. Also your logic that if I agree with A, I should agree with B is flawed.haha5957 wrote:
What are you?
I say 0.3 because Ez is 0.5. Ideally easy should just let you choose difficulty settings with the defaults set as the current Ez mod.GhostFrog wrote:
ziin, what would you suggest as the score multiplier for this mod if it were ranked? You mentioned a flat .3x multiplier, but that seems pretty unfair when you can, for example, use this mod exactly the same as EZ which has a .5x multiplier (but of course setting it to .5x would be bad because you can easily choose settings that would make the map easier than EZ mod). Probably some sort of scaling depending on how much you change map settings? What do you think?
Just to clarify, if this was ranked then the player would get MORE pp for increasing od/cs/ar. Some of these things may in fact be making the map easier for the player. I don't know if you follow pp much or the ideology behind it, but it's intention is to be absolute (as in any set of circles will always give the same pp regardless of the mods applied). This mod would make abuse of the pp system relatively easy. Alternatively you want a new sub par mod that receives huge incursions for it's use for pretty much no reason other than "it's breaking ranking"; in which case it might as well be unranked, arguing that accuracy from having it be unranked matters is wrong because to make this mod fit in there would have to be pp reduction for it's use, in the case that the reduction is so adequte then the mod will never provide enough pp to significantly alter people's accuracy.ziin wrote:
It was play count and accuracy. Since Accuracy is based on pp, then it only affects ranked score if ranked and would only be in the top 50 on maps people don't want to play because of the difficulty settings.
I don't care anymore as it doesn't matter. I just know that in the past unranked mods were requested and always denied.
Extremely hard AR8 maps looks little weird these days. Insane diffs should have high AR, easy diffs should have lower AR because AR is to balance difficulty out, pretty much to help people. (I mean, AR9 on easy map is hard and AR6 on insane map is even harder!)AR shouldn't be adjustable BECAUSE ranked maps are already fitted to the players. Can't play the meta maps? YOUR fault, it's META, it's not like it's a "weird skill". For the maps with challenging approach rates, now you need that reading skill that oh so want to ignore. Stop playing out of your comfort zone and use hr if you can't handle low AR, use easy mod if you can't handle high AR. Your hand should NOT be held, this isn't hello kitty online circle clicker. You make this out to be a black and white situation, as mentioned by ziin it's not so clear.
If you agree on this you should definitely agree on making AR both adjustable and rankable. Remember that AR6 is extremely hard on insane diff but makes sense on easy/normal diffs. AR is just a balancing tool here.
I'll be honest here, the fact that you want to have this mod appear on the ranking boards (potentially beating more impressive nomod scores) is the only reason I don't want it ranked. 0.3* guarantees nothing, this mod would only effect the hardest of maps in the game (which are already screwed up enough from halftime). I appreciate that you want to balance the mod but mods that make maps genuinely easier are VERY hard to balance with the way score in this game works.ziin wrote:
I say 0.3 because Ez is 0.5. Ideally easy should just let you choose difficulty settings with the defaults set as the current Ez mod.GhostFrog wrote:
ziin, what would you suggest as the score multiplier for this mod if it were ranked? You mentioned a flat .3x multiplier, but that seems pretty unfair when you can, for example, use this mod exactly the same as EZ which has a .5x multiplier (but of course setting it to .5x would be bad because you can easily choose settings that would make the map easier than EZ mod). Probably some sort of scaling depending on how much you change map settings? What do you think?
However, since ranking has significantly changed since this discussion first started, it matters less. You said that hr is okay only because it sets everything as a standard and I agree with that. The same goes for easy,so if this is a separate mod, Ez needs to grant more.
I like where you're headed with the scaling idea, but I really think it shouldn't affect top 50 scores. And that sounds like it would allow people to set everything to 10 except cs while making top 50. As I said before, I don't care if it's ranked or unranked anymore as neither will affect accuracy play count or pp, which are the important stats.
I never argued that they affect the map to the same degree, just that they affect the map in the same way: they limit the players ability to know when and where the next note is. If they didn't then everyone would be playing with background on and skins that included 300 hits.jesus1412 wrote:
To argue that SBs and BGs effects the map as much as AR just makes me feel like you're joking. I can't even think of a reply to that.
Just considering further, maybe ranked with a 0x multiplier could work, that way people can submit visible scores with it for mod specific leaderboards.ziin wrote:
I never argued that they affect the map to the same degree, just that they affect the map in the same way: they limit the players ability to know when and where the next note is. If they didn't then everyone would be playing with background on and skins that included 300 hits.jesus1412 wrote:
To argue that SBs and BGs effects the map as much as AR just makes me feel like you're joking. I can't even think of a reply to that.
Everything else I agree with more or less except for the use of the verb "to effect". Hooray English.
Discussed already, read through earlier posts.Dephix wrote:
why not ranked like in Hexis?
actually it wasn't. It works in hexis because the game was designed that way. osu! only recently started allowing people to change/customize things. The community is fairly heavily entrenched in its methods and osu! is much more competitive than hexis.jesus1412 wrote:
Discussed already, read through earlier posts.Dephix wrote:
why not ranked like in Hexis?
Some posts discussing this are on this page. I'll argue further but I'd rather not repeat myself more.agubelu wrote:
Free AR should absolutely be a thing
I don't know if AR is involved in PP calculation, but anyway:
If it isn't, why shouldn't we be able to play in whichever AR we like?
If it is, why is it? High AR isn't necessarily harder and low AR isn't necessarily easier
Why can't they just make a mod ?baraatje123 wrote:
Oh, to those people saying it'll be UNranked, why can't you just use editor?
Lowering HP allows passing unpassable maps on HR.baraatje123 wrote:
HP means nothing in terms of difficulty/pp
CS is the OD of aiming difficultybaraatje123 wrote:
CS only makes maps harder/easier (so it's fine if implemented)
Multiplayerbaraatje123 wrote:
Oh, to those people saying it'll be UNranked, why can't you just use editor?
OD is just a judge distance and has a miserable effect on HP. Ideally every map would be played on the highest OD you can pass with decent accuracy/survival.baraatje123 wrote:
I'm fine with it being ranked, but I'm scared for the OD
It's just boring.Mayu Watanabe wrote:
Why can't they just make a mod ?baraatje123 wrote:
Oh, to those people saying it'll be UNranked, why can't you just use editor?
Using the editor for each maps is pretty annoying
"I want a difficulty-reducing mod that doesn't lower my score." AR greatly affects how a map plays. If a map was made to be played on AR8 and you can't read it well enough to play it, you shouldn't be given the option to just change it. I've argued it at length in this thread. AR plays a huge factor in the aim component of the game.SteveRowland wrote:
But I think it shouldn't give any score multiplier for increasing AR nor reduce for for lowering it.
For HP, while I would appreciate lowering HP on some of the maps I can't pass, there already is NF for that and that one is pretty well balanced (0.5 score and -10%pp). While often even 0.5HP can be the difference between passing and failing a map, it would essential do the same thing as NF - a binary pass or die scenario. So I'd say there is no need for that.Agreed. Might be fun to play around with as an unranked thing (people could change Airman's drain to a reasonable number and see how hard it "should" be to pass!), but as a ranked mod, it should probably be equivalent to nofail and therefore pointless outside of extremely silly bragging purposes ("I didn't need nofail! I could pass the map just fine on hp0~~~").
CS - allowing increase of CS would be good and it could even give a bit of extra score multiplier, lowering CS should be penalized a lot though, there are map that are mainly hard thanks to their CS so allowing getting top ranks on those by lowering CS would be bad.You kind of hit on the difficult thing about changing cs here - cs often determines how a map or how its hard parts play out. Some patterns that are difficult at the cs chosen for a map may become absolutely trivial if you lower the cs juuuuuust enough and penalizing properly is basically impossible with the way multipliers work now without intentionally overtuning. This brings back something I've said repeatedly in this thread - hard rock is a TERRIBLE mess of a mod, but it's okayish (and the game is probably better for its existence) because it's standardized. Either you play the map or you play a version of the map with a specific different circle size (and AR, OD, HP) for 1.06x the points. Take it or leave it. Implementing user-chosen CS opens up weird edge cases of trying to change CS to exactly the right value to just barely not ruin the map and I don't think that's a good thing for the game. A fun thing to play around with on an unranked mod (which is exactly what this should be), but a really silly thing imo to have as part of the competitive aspect of the game.
OD - increase of OD has no point and should not award anything extra, it doesn't make anything more "comfortable" to play like the other stats. Lowering OD could be a thing but just like CS heavily penalized (or even unranked to avoid the free SS's)OD is the one that would probably make the most sense as a ranked mod since OD doesn't change how the map plays outside of notelock scenarios (or if your timing is so early or late that it causes you to miss notes), but it would be another balancing nightmare. If you increase the OD on an all-slider map, you've increased the difficulty by a trivial amount, for example. If you increase the OD on a really fast map, you might suddenly find it possible to pass due to decreased notelock. Overall, would, like the others, be best as an unranked mod.
Quick reminder that AR9 is already considered unreadable by most players because of being too slow, at least 9.5 is required to be 'playable' now.GhostFrog wrote:
p.s. AR9 on 140bpm? What the heck is the current generation of players being raised on that AR9 is needed for something that slow?
I blame mappers When i started playing earlier this year, easy and normal difficulties were too easy while hard were too hard so I went with normal+HR and then soon switched to normal+HRDT which is for most normals ar9 (as their base is 5) xD And then I just kinda transitioned into insanes at ar9.GhostFrog wrote:
p.s. AR9 on 140bpm? What the heck is the current generation of players being raised on that AR9 is needed for something that slow?
this guy gets it! Now I just hope mappers start putting 9.5 even for 4.5star insanes xDBlue Dragon wrote:
Quick reminder that AR9 is already considered unreadable by most players because of being too slow, at least 9.5 is required to be 'playable' now.
Would make sense, indeed (even though imo Relax & Auto-pilot are no good practice mods, or at least Relax is but the second isn't...).SteveRowland wrote:
Well I would be fine with it being unranked if it wasn't like the currently unranked mods - those (auto and relax) don't even show you your acc and stuff during the play, you can't see misses etc. And also I would like to have local leaderboards at least with this, just like unranked maps (edited to comfortable AR etc) do.
It really helps practice when you can see how much you are improving over your older results. So if you can make these things work with an unranked mode, I'd be fine with it since it would save me time going to editor to change these things and help with spectating etc.
Depends on the person, I guess. Some people like lower ARs, gameplay isn't even the same depending on what AR's used. I find myself being well better at playing some beatmaps with AR9.3/9.5 than with AR9, but I'm only satisfied when I hit a good score on the lower one. Harder to read but better to practice with, since it helps being able to see multiple hit-objects.Blue Dragon wrote:
Quick reminder that AR9 is already considered unreadable by most players because of being too slow, at least 9.5 is required to be 'playable' now.