And if you decide to stick to your choice?Mahogany wrote:
What I just said is just that it doesn't matter the order you learn things, you will struggle eventually and you either stick to your choice or turn to something else.
And if you decide to stick to your choice?Mahogany wrote:
What I just said is just that it doesn't matter the order you learn things, you will struggle eventually and you either stick to your choice or turn to something else.
I disagree. A 4.8* nomod map will be more complex and have more difficult patterns than a 4.8* HR map. The difficulty is in aiming smaller circles, dealing with AR10, and dealing with OD10.Mikakage wrote:
A 4.8* no mod map is about as hard as a map that becomes 4.8* after adding HR. When learning HR people don't start at the level they are used to playing no mods.
I said you shouldn't play DT or HR before you have a solid nomod base. Your post was pointing out the fact that these people who play DT or HR had no firm grasp on AR9 in the first place, which is part of the reason why you should stick to nomod until it's impossible to progress further.Mikakage wrote:
How this reinforces your point?
Of course it's the best way to learn the game, because nomod is the way the game and map were designed. It's an entry point into the game and will tide you over for a long time, and by the time you're starting to have to play DT/HR, you'll be able to make a proper educated decision of which to focus more into, and will have a lot more actual skill backing you up rather than having to rely on the mod for PP.Mikakage wrote:
learning no mod first is objectively the best way to learn the game
That's when you start learning a mod, though. It's a lot harder to learn a lower AR/Slower maps than it is to learn a higher AR/Faster maps.Mikakage wrote:
Not learning mods will also cause problems later on
I don't know about you, but I find a 200pp play modless much more impressive than a 200pp play with HR or DT.Mikakage wrote:
Just like balanced players won't get the top plays from specific mods because they don't have the keyskills to play at the highest levels of these.
But that would mean they never actually learned AR they unlearned.Mahogany wrote:
Playing too much AR9.67/AR10/AR10.3HK_ wrote:
Would anyone please explain it to me how does one "unlearn" ar9??
You know, the same way people unlearn AR0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8
The only mods that will give you trouble when learning them late are EZ and maybe HD/FL as these mods are different to deal with compared to mods that just alter speed/metadata and also a lot different depending on the difficulty level: the occurence of stacks, overlaps, high AR, spacing are all things that become important for the Silver-mods while they don't really have an impact gameplaywise on HR/DT. EZ specifically cause good players don't really have the nerves to go back to easier maps to get a grasp on the mod and harder maps being way too dense with EZ for learning purposes.Mahogany wrote:
That's when you start learning a mod, though. It's a lot harder to learn a lower AR/Slower maps than it is to learn a higher AR/Faster maps.Mikakage wrote:
Not learning mods will also cause problems later on
What you should ask yourself before you start learning a mod:
Do I need to?
No. No, you don't need to. Not until you're rank 10k or below. Hell, I've gotten to 4k PP purely by exploiting the PP system as much as I can, so maybe that's a better value to aim for, too.
Yet, for many, aiming a pattern or dealing with OD8 streams are easier than dealing with AR10 and OD>=9.8. Hard to say which one is more complex, huh?Mahogany wrote:
I disagree. A 4.8* nomod map will be more complex and have more difficult patterns than a 4.8* HR map. The difficulty is in aiming smaller circles, dealing with AR10, and dealing with OD10.
The difficulty gained from HR is an entirely different type of difficulty than you would have from a nomod map of similar difficulty. It's like trying to compare longstreams to fullscreen jumps in terms of difficulty, they're incomparable at a similar level.
topkekMahogany wrote:
That's when you start learning a mod, though. It's a lot harder to learn a lower AR/Slower maps than it is to learn a higher AR/Faster maps.
...Mahogany wrote:
What you should ask yourself before you start learning a mod:
Do I need to?
Ok? And?Mahogany wrote:
No. No, you don't need to. Not until you're rank 10k or below. Hell, I've gotten to 4k PP purely by exploiting the PP system as much as I can, so maybe that's a better value to aim for, too.
I don't know about you, but I don't make generic statements like these because there are easy farm maps for every mod and hard maps for every mod around the same pp range.Mahogany wrote:
I don't know about you, but I find a 200pp play modless much more impressive than a 200pp play with HR or DT.
No I am also really good at nomod, DT and HD. HR made my accuracy, reading and timing better, which are quite the walls for players who go from OD8 nomods to OD9-10 nomods or even DT/HR. I am quite sure I have more expertise in this matter than you do, so please, refrain from doubting, specially since I made practice courses and helped people practice and pretty much all of them have, not only higher pp (since you're talking about pp, I will do so too), but their actual plays are better than yours.Mahogany wrote:
Ok? And?bonbori wrote:
I started playing HDHR when I was 20k in ppv1 (which should be like 40k nowadays) and I have one of the best aims in my country and among the top HDHR players around.
Did you NEED to start playing HDHR then to keep improving? I doubt it, you could progress much further nomod.
If people ruin themselves it's for a reason. Either they don't have anyone to tell them that they fucked up, or they simply have a halter that makes it impossible for them to see any problem with themselves.Mahogany wrote:
No, because most of the time people don't actually know what's best for them. That's why we have people who have completely ruined themselves by playing DT too much and are completely unable to rank anymore.bonbori wrote:
People should start playing mods when they are confortable with moving forward and stepping up their game
This sounds like a nomod-play with X pp is more impressive than a HR-play with X pp cause the latter abuses the system's bias.Mikakage wrote:
pp isn't the only metric to measure skill as the system has it's flaws like the bias towards spacing and OD.
Endaris wrote:
This sounds like a nomod-play with X pp is more impressive than a HR-play with X pp cause the latter abuses the system's bias.Mikakage wrote:
pp isn't the only metric to measure skill as the system has it's flaws like the bias towards spacing and OD.
Enjoy your no mod farm.Endaris wrote:
This sounds like a nomod-play with X pp is more impressive than a HR-play with X pp cause the latter abuses the system's bias.
Which more or less says that HR/DT are for pp-farming and specific niche-skills and nomod for overall skill.
Ain't that what Maho was saying?
Such a lame challenge. Looking at my rank/topplays you know exactly that I can't precisely judge plays at that level.bonbori wrote:
This is not a rule. Of course there are maps that exist for the purpose of abusing the system, but I challenge you to point any no mod maps that are worth the same as a close to SS run on Chata - Remind +HDHR.
That map is like 240pp. And I can keep on going, that was just a single example.
Smart choice, you took the correct arguments.peckc wrote:
Neither of those two mods creates new patterns for my eye to learn, so in a game where recognizing patterns to match with rhythms is extremely important, I don't see a reason to learn HR/DT until I've gotten to a point that I recognize most difficulty level patterns (including stream length, stream speed, jump distance, etc.) since at each difficulty level, new patterns are introduced. While you could make the argument that I could learn these patterns on lower songs, easier difficulty songs have less notes than hard songs, so it would take longer to run into the tougher patterns on these easy songs. While HR/DT seem like EXTREMELY valuable tools for improvement, I don't see much worth to doubling speed of a song of increasing AR/decreasing circle size if you can't recognize the patterns in the first place. I'd rather learn the songs nomod up to whatever wall I hit, then go back and learn DT/HR on songs that I enjoyed playing nomod.
Then why are you trying to argue back with both Mikakage and I when we clearly have more experience in:Endaris wrote:
Such a lame challenge. Looking at my rank/topplays you know exactly that I can't precisely judge plays at that level.bonbori wrote:
This is not a rule. Of course there are maps that exist for the purpose of abusing the system, but I challenge you to point any no mod maps that are worth the same as a close to SS run on Chata - Remind +HDHR.
That map is like 240pp. And I can keep on going, that was just a single example.
I won 3 tournaments (one of them being a 3rd place) playing mainly DT maps. I was unbanned like 5 months ago and I barelly touched DT in single-player. I can do old DTs as well as up to 10.3 capping out at ~250bpm.Khelly wrote:
Just gonna say bonbori, if you were really good at DT you would have more high level DT fcs that simply aren't 3* maps fc'd with good acc. Yeah, you're fucking boss at hdhr but I refute this DT claim.
Check my editKhelly wrote:
Fuuuu you were typing that now my post is hidden forever.
As part of the conditions on my unban, I agreed on not talking about it ever, sorry about it.Khelly wrote:
Why were you banned
One of them was a 2013 tournament, really old and easy (for today's standards) DT maps.Khelly wrote:
and what were the maps in these tournaments because I need more maps.
Then why are you trying to argue back [...] when we clearly have more experienceis one of the most stupid things you can say in any discussion. You're biased.
Of course I am biased about it. I am completely biased about this because you're telling people who could potentially become the next ruruchi to stay away from forced improvements that DT and HR impose. You're telling them to back-track further on and actually take a way longer time to improve at specific aspects because you don't have the skill set to do it.Endaris wrote:
Also thisThen why are you trying to argue back [...] when we clearly have more experienceis one of the most stupid things you can say in any discussion. You're biased.
I've been around here for some time now and I've seen many new players asking for help with their problems and looked on what caused the problems could be, spectated them, discussed peripherals/settings with them etc.
Maybe you can't even remember anymore how it was to be to fail 3.5* star maps out of mere lack of skill cause you're such OsuGods but I certainly do.
get your ass out of here thenbonbori wrote:
People won't get better at osu for reading the forums, they will get better at osu for playing the game.
i'm sorry but i laughedbonbori wrote:
people who could potentially become the next ruruchi
Play a map with HR that has comfortable bpm for reading(would be3* ~150-180).ShadyAngel wrote:
So many posts, and I'm sitting here being confused about whether or not a skrub like me should put the HR glasses on.
Khelly wrote:
You say people will back away from it and go back to nomod - but I'm not entirely sure. I've seen many a time here new players decide to keep playing 5/6* maps and consider that their skill level and then never want to back down from playing them - and their top ranks are C's on hards for a general example.
Do you think playing things like that and continuing to do so when you're vastly not ready will lead to significant improvement? What's to keep someone from playing 3* Dt and not being able to go higher because they never atopped and went back? Or decided that 90% HR B's were good and now can only read ar10?
_________________________________________________________________bonbori wrote:
If people ruin themselves it's for a reason. Either they don't have anyone to tell them that they fucked up, or they simply have a halter that makes it impossible for them to see any problem with themselves.
I used an extreme example for the purpose of making my point clear, but comic-relief was also intendedAstrofiziks wrote:
i'm sorry but i laughedbonbori wrote:
people who could potentially become the next ruruchi
No, thanks, I like reading threads in here to see what kind of terrible advice people give from time to time, such as:Endaris wrote:
get your ass out of here thenbonbori wrote:
People won't get better at osu for reading the forums, they will get better at osu for playing the game.
As I said I'm not telling anyone what to play unless that person asked for opinions(and I'm also not presenting it as the holy grail).
- ISetsunaI - wrote:
Silly question, how did you get started [into playing FL]?
Oh and do people actually use FL for maps with small jumps (without memorization)? I know there's plenty of maps with short jumps ,but most of them are really old.
__________________________________________________________________________pandaBee wrote:
Flashlight is a terrible mod, please do not play it.
How can you even say that if you don't play anything but nomod? What aspects of DT and HR do you understand to be so confident of your own argument. Seriously, you literally have less than 5 DT and HR runs added altogether. You don't seem to understand my point in this thread. You don't seem to understand that I am not saying how someone should or should not practice.Endaris wrote:
Nomod is a safe way to go though as there is no way to develop the bad habits DT/HR can cause.
Okay, I can pass those 3.5*, it's the 4.5-5.0* that are the nasty ones right now. But I feel like I'm making progress. It's nice to have opinions coming from all ends of the spectrum -- all ends that are still better than me, ahaha. & thanks for making that beginner guide, it's been helpful to have something to start working from. Although I feel the most improvement comes from when I watch my replays and go "oh yeah, I actually DID miss that note because of x/y/z, and this is how I can fix it"Endaris wrote:
Maybe you can't even remember anymore how it was to be to fail 3.5* star maps out of mere lack of skill cause you're such OsuGods but I certainly do.
/edit: Also I'm never telling people how to play unless they ask me to. OP asked, why wouldn't I give my opinion?
!!!!peckc wrote:
Practice. Practice. Practice.
That's what I expect most people to do. People who will "ruin themselves" are the specific case that you mentioned of people who can't understand when it is time to stopKhelly wrote:
So you JUST SAID if they can't handle it they will realise it and back away and now you counter that with "they ruin themselves for a reason"?
Except that this would be like comparing low-end DT with high-end DT, instead of completely different types of gameplay as you have been suggesting up till now.Endaris wrote:
It's more like:
A: Hey, how do i learn to ski a black piste if i never ski'd before?
Me: You start out on blue pistes to learn how to change directions without falling down every 2s and accelerating too fast. Once you can do that you can move on to more steep red pistes and become more familiar with rough terrain.
A: BUT I WANNA DO BLACK PISTES!!!
Me: Enjoy game pls.
Like me, I abused DT and HR enough to break my insidesEndaris wrote:
How is DT different from nomod?
It's just faster -> more steep piste.
I think OP is smart enough to not run into bad habits but depending on who asks the question there are plenty of people that will do.
lol, if you can't distinguish nomod and DT, then I have nothing else to do in here, gl helping other peopleEndaris wrote:
How is DT different from nomod?
It's just faster -> more steep piste.
I think OP is smart enough to not run into bad habits but depending on who asks the question there are plenty of people that will do.
Umm, lots of songs have AR 9.5 that have high BPM. DT is quite indistinguishable nowadaysbonbori wrote:
lol, if you can't distinguish nomod and DT, then I have nothing else to do in here, gl helping other people
I am not talking about low-end DTThe Gambler wrote:
Umm, lots of songs have AR 9.5 that have high BPM. DT is quite indistinguishable nowadaysbonbori wrote:
lol, if you can't distinguish nomod and DT, then I have nothing else to do in here, gl helping other people
unless you're doing AR10.3