Thing is if you're only starting as a mania player you will most likely not care about pp at all. Making it so pp are only awarded by mania specific maps will send players on the right track naturally without the need to correct them as soon as they start caring about ranking.
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)
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@October Scream
Autoconverts for taiko and ctb are shit too, dont say too much about game modes where u dont have basic knowledge about them.
@Topic
You guys forgot why DT was removed from ranking? Because it was overpowered, especially on autoconverts and now it will be even more overpowered because of easy to spam maps like haelequin or space time.
Dont expect that DT pp will be added without fixing a star rating formula. But Im honestly surprised that HT started to give pp again, maybe its a sign that some important changes are gonna happen.
Autoconverts for taiko and ctb are shit too, dont say too much about game modes where u dont have basic knowledge about them.
@Topic
You guys forgot why DT was removed from ranking? Because it was overpowered, especially on autoconverts and now it will be even more overpowered because of easy to spam maps like haelequin or space time.
Dont expect that DT pp will be added without fixing a star rating formula. But Im honestly surprised that HT started to give pp again, maybe its a sign that some important changes are gonna happen.
Umm, you obviously haven't seen me play CtB before Tidek. I think the way standard maps concert for CtB is WAAAAAY better than what converts for mania. Taiko maps convert poorly too, but still better than what you get from mania because of the fact it's mapped towards hit sounds and not putting random shit out for you. Trust me I don't sit around and just play mania. Maybe if you looked more.Tidek wrote:
@October Scream
Autoconverts for taiko and ctb are shit too, dont say too much about game modes where u dont have basic knowledge about them.
Also keep in mind YOU have barely any knowledge either. I see nothing about Taiko even, so you shut your trap until you look around and get some experience before bitching to someone who has more knowledge about a certain mode more than you.
Now that I think about it, bringing back DT ranking and deranking autoconverts can be justified. As for the spamming, DT shouldn't scale the hit area with the map to be larger, it's should keep it as it is without DT.Tidek wrote:
You guys forgot why DT was removed from ranking? Because it was overpowered, especially on autoconverts and now it will be even more overpowered because of easy to spam maps like haelequin or space time.
I can agree on this, but if something like that were to happen, I feel that there would be a whole scoreboard reset due to the changing function.abraker wrote:
As for the spamming, DT shouldn't scale the hit area with the map to be larger, it's should keep it as it is without DT.
DeletedUser_2024727
maybe when mania first came out as a playstyle, autoconvert pp was a good thing (lol) but now there are enough ranked charts to probably accurately depict skill levels. there are also a plethora of unranked maps, more than a few of which are significantly better than anything currently ranked/will ever be ranked, so I don't think there will be any detriment now in removing autoconvert pp. ranked maps don't happen very often, so it wouldn't be very hard to keep up with new maps
in the case of dt/ht pp, if there's no way to get it right, or if there's no way to appease the majority, simply remove both from the equation
in the case of dt/ht pp, if there's no way to get it right, or if there's no way to appease the majority, simply remove both from the equation
It wasn't a good thing, it was the only thing. I remember how bullshit the system was in ppv1, to the point of currently 1,5 star autoconvert giving way more pp than currently 4,5 star mania maps. But now that we have ranked maps, there is only one thing right to do
R E M O V E A U T O C O N V E R T
More to the suggestions about 7K (mainly):
-heavy chord maps are heavily overrated, even when they are slow. Especially in comparsion to stream heavy maps. Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/176336 The Epilogue is a ultra easy to read, very easy to hit and not very fast sith only difficulty coming from having to hit heavy chords, whilist Blocko's Interlude contains much harder to read and hit patterns at considerably higher speed. Star rating counts Epilogue as 6,2* diff and Interlude as 4,5*. My scores for comparsion are: 920k on Epilogue, 730k on Interlude.
-Long note heavy maps with complicated technically are heavily underrated. It's not a big problem with fast and dense LN patterns, but the problem becomes big with long LNs combined with medium lenght ones, without any short LN spam. Also lesser amount of notes with harder LNs loses against simple LNs and heavier note usage, while former is harder. Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/498730&m=3 Lv.25 is way harder than Lv.27, but Lv.27 still manages to have 0,5* more. My scores for comparsion: Lv.25 627k (with 5-6 tries) Lv.27 758k (2 tries)
I consider myself as fairly average player in any aspect of 7k
More to the suggestions about 7K (mainly):
-heavy chord maps are heavily overrated, even when they are slow. Especially in comparsion to stream heavy maps. Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/176336 The Epilogue is a ultra easy to read, very easy to hit and not very fast sith only difficulty coming from having to hit heavy chords, whilist Blocko's Interlude contains much harder to read and hit patterns at considerably higher speed. Star rating counts Epilogue as 6,2* diff and Interlude as 4,5*. My scores for comparsion are: 920k on Epilogue, 730k on Interlude.
-Long note heavy maps with complicated technically are heavily underrated. It's not a big problem with fast and dense LN patterns, but the problem becomes big with long LNs combined with medium lenght ones, without any short LN spam. Also lesser amount of notes with harder LNs loses against simple LNs and heavier note usage, while former is harder. Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/498730&m=3 Lv.25 is way harder than Lv.27, but Lv.27 still manages to have 0,5* more. My scores for comparsion: Lv.25 627k (with 5-6 tries) Lv.27 758k (2 tries)
I consider myself as fairly average player in any aspect of 7k
change everything
ty
ty
^
not gonna happen
but I can only agree
not gonna happen
but I can only agree
http://ask.fm/Tom94/answer/128118253262
Posting as requested - discussed with Staiain as well on what the ratings should be instead of what they are now.
Overrated maps:
Miracle 5ympho X [Fullerene's Black Another] - Exemplary map that shows how much emphasis is put into max NPS in a certain period more than anything else. Aside from the transitioning between jumptrilling at 210 BPM (which is barely difficult, it's significantly easier than say Kamui - which is currently 4.86*) - there's nothing that's close to 5* in this map. Probably 4.5*?
Diva 1.2x [Insane] - The quadjacks in this are hard, but really not worth 7.75* or whatever it's rated at the moment. There isn't too much of a difference between jumpjacks and quadjacks at this speed - in fact quadjacks are arguably easier than jumpjacks because jumpjacks require different motions if they change chords whereas quadjacks is just one motion. Probably 5.4*.
AiAe [Wafles' SHD] - Very hard, but certainly doesn't deserve a 1.22* discrepancy between it and Haelequin. The hardest parts of this map are the quadstreams and the stamina component, rather than the walls (which is how AiAe is getting its difficulty). This is probably a 6-6.1* map, more than anything else.
M.A.M.A. [ExTra] - Generally easy up to the ending (which is a 1/8 jumpstream with a jump layered on every other note), which is the hardest part. However, M.A.M.A.'s ending could be easily manipulated as a 1/6 jumptrill. I know multiple people who can S this easily and they can't even come remotely close to S'ing anything that should be in the 6* range - this is probably closer to 5.6-5.7* than what it is at the moment. It is a very luck-based map, a person who can't even pass AiAe on command could potentially get an S on this.
Underrated maps:
AiAe [SC] - This is a considerable boost from MX, but the difference between the two is only 0.21. SC has significantly harder patterning and layering - with tons of hidden one hand trilling and transitions with minijacks. It definitely deserves more than just a 4.60 rating - probably more towards 4.9 to 5.0 instead of whatever it is at the moment.
Imperishable Night 2006 [4K Insane] - Probably the most underrated 4K map that's currently ranked - 161 BPM 1/8 runningmen (essentially 322 BPM 1/4s) is something that's not doable for a good number of players. The leaderboards speak for themselves - the fact that the leaderboards look almost as bad as AiAe's should signify that it should be around the same level as AiAe, if not maybe lower due to the differences in scoring difficulty. Perhaps about 5.8?
Kamui [Insane] - Not so much demanding in terms of speed, but there's a lot of consistency demanded with tons of LNs that can't be released all that comfortably and long trills with chords layered onto them in an unorthodox manner. This tests a completely different type of consistency - so this might be harder to adjust in terms of difficulty. This is probably more towards 5.2-5.3, maybe higher.
The End [Keyboard Marathon] - 8 minutes of handstream and dense jumpstream at 200 BPM is significantly significantly harder than most maps at its given difficulty. It's certainly harder to score on than HAELEQUIN and We Luv Lama [AAA]. We Luv Lama is mainly 210 BPM dense jumpstream with considerable breaks, whereas The End is far longer and has harder patterning (albeit shorter). This is probably closer to 5.6*.
Angelic Layer [4K Overjoy Stage 1] - The hardest part of this map is that it's insanely difficult to be able to jack on a single note consistently at 150 BPM. The fact that there are occasional notes layered on the same hand makes it harder to be consistent as well. I don't have many points of comparison because there aren't many maps like this, but 5.9* seems fine for something like this? It's not easy to rate this accurately because it tests consistency like Kamui AND it requires really good jacking ability.
The Scales of Struggle [Collab Extreme] - Lots of 400 BPM stream (and occasionally jumpstream) and a polyrhythm ending that is essentially a long 400 BPM stream and jumpstream after with difficult patterning. 6.16* might seem like a high rating, but no one has come close to 99ing this map, and there aren't many people who can S this - there are certainly more people who have the potential to S AiAe than Scales of Struggle. This is 6.5*, maybe 6.6*.
We Fucking Hate You [Masochist] - I picked this map because it has relatively low max NPS, but it's constantly difficult throughout. It's 220 BPM jumpstream with 1/6 bursts littered throughout the entire map, making it insanely difficult to both time and hit. 220 BPM dense jumpstream alone (there are some areas where it has a chord on every other note) is about 5.1*+, but combined with the fact that you have to juggle jumpstream with tons of 1/6 bursts with rigid patterning as well makes it absurdly stamina-draining. Probably closer to 5.5*.
There's a ton of maps that are underrated and overrated (and definitely some others that I missed out), but I mainly picked up examples of ones that should be bumped up or down so similar ones will follow suit. I also wanted to make a couple of graphs on how hard should a ___ BPM (chord)stream should be, given that ___% of the notes are part of anchor jacks or one hand trills present in them - but I haven't really thought of numbers yet.
Essentially maps with overly high NPS is overrated. Maps with a very noticeable stamina component or extremely fast streams (or any pattern with relatively low NPS) is underrated. Patterning and consistency required isn't taken very much into consideration as well, at least not as much as it should be.
Would like to know other maps that are overrated or underrated that I missed out, it would definitely help the devs out.
Posting as requested - discussed with Staiain as well on what the ratings should be instead of what they are now.
Overrated maps:
Miracle 5ympho X [Fullerene's Black Another] - Exemplary map that shows how much emphasis is put into max NPS in a certain period more than anything else. Aside from the transitioning between jumptrilling at 210 BPM (which is barely difficult, it's significantly easier than say Kamui - which is currently 4.86*) - there's nothing that's close to 5* in this map. Probably 4.5*?
Diva 1.2x [Insane] - The quadjacks in this are hard, but really not worth 7.75* or whatever it's rated at the moment. There isn't too much of a difference between jumpjacks and quadjacks at this speed - in fact quadjacks are arguably easier than jumpjacks because jumpjacks require different motions if they change chords whereas quadjacks is just one motion. Probably 5.4*.
AiAe [Wafles' SHD] - Very hard, but certainly doesn't deserve a 1.22* discrepancy between it and Haelequin. The hardest parts of this map are the quadstreams and the stamina component, rather than the walls (which is how AiAe is getting its difficulty). This is probably a 6-6.1* map, more than anything else.
M.A.M.A. [ExTra] - Generally easy up to the ending (which is a 1/8 jumpstream with a jump layered on every other note), which is the hardest part. However, M.A.M.A.'s ending could be easily manipulated as a 1/6 jumptrill. I know multiple people who can S this easily and they can't even come remotely close to S'ing anything that should be in the 6* range - this is probably closer to 5.6-5.7* than what it is at the moment. It is a very luck-based map, a person who can't even pass AiAe on command could potentially get an S on this.
Underrated maps:
AiAe [SC] - This is a considerable boost from MX, but the difference between the two is only 0.21. SC has significantly harder patterning and layering - with tons of hidden one hand trilling and transitions with minijacks. It definitely deserves more than just a 4.60 rating - probably more towards 4.9 to 5.0 instead of whatever it is at the moment.
Imperishable Night 2006 [4K Insane] - Probably the most underrated 4K map that's currently ranked - 161 BPM 1/8 runningmen (essentially 322 BPM 1/4s) is something that's not doable for a good number of players. The leaderboards speak for themselves - the fact that the leaderboards look almost as bad as AiAe's should signify that it should be around the same level as AiAe, if not maybe lower due to the differences in scoring difficulty. Perhaps about 5.8?
Kamui [Insane] - Not so much demanding in terms of speed, but there's a lot of consistency demanded with tons of LNs that can't be released all that comfortably and long trills with chords layered onto them in an unorthodox manner. This tests a completely different type of consistency - so this might be harder to adjust in terms of difficulty. This is probably more towards 5.2-5.3, maybe higher.
The End [Keyboard Marathon] - 8 minutes of handstream and dense jumpstream at 200 BPM is significantly significantly harder than most maps at its given difficulty. It's certainly harder to score on than HAELEQUIN and We Luv Lama [AAA]. We Luv Lama is mainly 210 BPM dense jumpstream with considerable breaks, whereas The End is far longer and has harder patterning (albeit shorter). This is probably closer to 5.6*.
Angelic Layer [4K Overjoy Stage 1] - The hardest part of this map is that it's insanely difficult to be able to jack on a single note consistently at 150 BPM. The fact that there are occasional notes layered on the same hand makes it harder to be consistent as well. I don't have many points of comparison because there aren't many maps like this, but 5.9* seems fine for something like this? It's not easy to rate this accurately because it tests consistency like Kamui AND it requires really good jacking ability.
The Scales of Struggle [Collab Extreme] - Lots of 400 BPM stream (and occasionally jumpstream) and a polyrhythm ending that is essentially a long 400 BPM stream and jumpstream after with difficult patterning. 6.16* might seem like a high rating, but no one has come close to 99ing this map, and there aren't many people who can S this - there are certainly more people who have the potential to S AiAe than Scales of Struggle. This is 6.5*, maybe 6.6*.
We Fucking Hate You [Masochist] - I picked this map because it has relatively low max NPS, but it's constantly difficult throughout. It's 220 BPM jumpstream with 1/6 bursts littered throughout the entire map, making it insanely difficult to both time and hit. 220 BPM dense jumpstream alone (there are some areas where it has a chord on every other note) is about 5.1*+, but combined with the fact that you have to juggle jumpstream with tons of 1/6 bursts with rigid patterning as well makes it absurdly stamina-draining. Probably closer to 5.5*.
There's a ton of maps that are underrated and overrated (and definitely some others that I missed out), but I mainly picked up examples of ones that should be bumped up or down so similar ones will follow suit. I also wanted to make a couple of graphs on how hard should a ___ BPM (chord)stream should be, given that ___% of the notes are part of anchor jacks or one hand trills present in them - but I haven't really thought of numbers yet.
Essentially maps with overly high NPS is overrated. Maps with a very noticeable stamina component or extremely fast streams (or any pattern with relatively low NPS) is underrated. Patterning and consistency required isn't taken very much into consideration as well, at least not as much as it should be.
Would like to know other maps that are overrated or underrated that I missed out, it would definitely help the devs out.
tl;dr
Chords and chordstreams (really easy ones like alternating trills) should be weighed less than it currently is.
Specific patterns should have certain weighings
Single note streams should be weighed more at higher BPM (250+)
Polyrhythms (ex. 1/4 and 1/3 mapped at the same time - see Haryu) generally much harder and should be weighed more
One long note + regular note streams are overrated (see Koi Yomi Zakura)
Generally, o2jam like long note patterns are underrated (like Taekwonburi and Wintersun)
Jacks are underrated (Especially at high bpm, see Intersect Thunderbolt Momo's 4K Insane)
Extended lengths of trills should be rated more due to the consistency required to hit them accurately (see Kamui and Fullerenes HAELEQUIN extended ver.)
Will add more and elaborate more here later
Chords and chordstreams (really easy ones like alternating trills) should be weighed less than it currently is.
Specific patterns should have certain weighings
Single note streams should be weighed more at higher BPM (250+)
Polyrhythms (ex. 1/4 and 1/3 mapped at the same time - see Haryu) generally much harder and should be weighed more
One long note + regular note streams are overrated (see Koi Yomi Zakura)
Generally, o2jam like long note patterns are underrated (like Taekwonburi and Wintersun)
Jacks are underrated (Especially at high bpm, see Intersect Thunderbolt Momo's 4K Insane)
Extended lengths of trills should be rated more due to the consistency required to hit them accurately (see Kamui and Fullerenes HAELEQUIN extended ver.)
Will add more and elaborate more here later
Pretty much this. HT PP is weighed too much imo as well. I feel like I didn't even earn this lmao http://puu.sh/hA9zW/bad3a700ee.pngChoofers wrote:
in the case of dt/ht pp, if there's no way to get it right, or if there's no way to appease the majority, simply remove both from the equation
A pp map on normal speed will generally be a pp map on HT, as will it likely be with DT. Fixing SR is really the only way to prevent things like the Aiae SHD HT scores from awarding too many performance points. Otherwise people playing maps like sister's noise Lv. 42 on half time will be completely useless pp-wise, even if they manage to score well on it.StaiainFangirl wrote:
Pretty much this. HT PP is weighed too much imo as well. I feel like I didn't even earn this lmao http://puu.sh/hA9zW/bad3a700ee.pngChoofers wrote:
in the case of dt/ht pp, if there's no way to get it right, or if there's no way to appease the majority, simply remove both from the equation
Yeah, the entire problem is SR calculation.
Nobody outside of Tom94 and perhaps peppy probably knows how SR is actually calculated in mania. It is different for each mode.
Mania's SR was even more broken until Tom94 started working on it a while back, so it's considerably better than it was before. The problem is mainly that certain kinds of patterns are underrated or overrated in the current formula. The effect this has is that certain hard maps will become massive PP generators (I'm looking at you Utakata) while others (particularly LN heavy maps) are worth less than they should be.
This completely skews the entire PP system to favor certain skill sets, among other issues. The issues with some maps being favored over others has been known pretty much since the first few days after the current SR calculations started being used.
Hopefully sometime in the near future Tom will make more fixes to the algorithm and smooth out the inconsistencies. But honestly, the whole system is a whole lot better than it used to be.
Mania's SR was even more broken until Tom94 started working on it a while back, so it's considerably better than it was before. The problem is mainly that certain kinds of patterns are underrated or overrated in the current formula. The effect this has is that certain hard maps will become massive PP generators (I'm looking at you Utakata) while others (particularly LN heavy maps) are worth less than they should be.
This completely skews the entire PP system to favor certain skill sets, among other issues. The issues with some maps being favored over others has been known pretty much since the first few days after the current SR calculations started being used.
Hopefully sometime in the near future Tom will make more fixes to the algorithm and smooth out the inconsistencies. But honestly, the whole system is a whole lot better than it used to be.
I've no idea how people know HT actually give pp.
Anyways HT should give at least 15-30% pp.
Anyways HT should give at least 15-30% pp.
Meanwhile Co-Op Mode is still ranked -w-
Next Up: 50% pp for Autoplay
AiAe [Wafles SHD] (100.00%) +Auto - 389pp
Seriously though, I really dont like the way the ranking is going right now.
Really good players have lower ranks than Co-Op Boosters and at the same time,
people (myself included) get HT-pp for maps they cant even dream of passing. (Which would be fine if DT was ranked, too)
And then theres people who could DT those maps and they dont get shit for what theyre able to play.
We just get random updates and changes to what gives pp and what doesnt, but that wont fix the core problem.
Sadest thing about that; except for (a minor part) the community, noone seems to really care at all.
Well played.
Next Up: 50% pp for Autoplay
AiAe [Wafles SHD] (100.00%) +Auto - 389pp
Seriously though, I really dont like the way the ranking is going right now.
Really good players have lower ranks than Co-Op Boosters and at the same time,
people (myself included) get HT-pp for maps they cant even dream of passing. (Which would be fine if DT was ranked, too)
And then theres people who could DT those maps and they dont get shit for what theyre able to play.
We just get random updates and changes to what gives pp and what doesnt, but that wont fix the core problem.
Sadest thing about that; except for (a minor part) the community, noone seems to really care at all.
Well played.
Wasn't co-op disabled from ranking to avoid confusion with account sharing?
Ovnize wrote:
co-op isn't ranked
Oh lord, didn't know that. Thought it's still ranked since everyone who used Co-Op to boost themselves still has the pp for it.
My bad there, sorry
Is easy mod nerfed?
I kinda saw in the G&R main forum that it was nerfed in osu!mania
I kinda saw in the G&R main forum that it was nerfed in osu!mania
What do you mean nerfed ?
Alright as far as the individual mods go, this is my opinion. The right bracket represents the max PP achievable, while the left brackets represents an arbitrary PP. As far as comparisons go, don't compare a mod's range to another (like hardrock and doubletime), it is intended to compare to no mod only.
No mod:
No Fail:
Easy:
Halftime:
Hardrock:
Doubletime:
The rest of the mods do little to modify difficulty.
No mod:
SPOILER
Not much needs to be said about this, other than improving the difficulty calculation for maps.
<--------------------------------[---------------------o-------------------]---------------------------------------->
<--------------------------------[---------------------o-------------------]---------------------------------------->
No Fail:
SPOILER
It behaves like normal, but allows players to submit maps even if they fail. Players that need to use this will have scores for that are almost most certainly below 500,000. Since the formula for PP is exponential (or so it seems), lower scores will naturally generate low PP. While it is possible to get a higher score and still fail, such map would have high HP with one spam part which raises the map's diff by a whole star or so which kills players that thought could pass it. Then that is straight away not a good map and should not be ranked in the first place. However, perhaps a slight penalty is still needed to justify the safety net by moving the PP range lower, depending on the difficulty of the map.
<------------------------[---------------------o-------------------]------------------------------------------------>
<------------------------[---------------------o-------------------]------------------------------------------------>
Easy:
SPOILER
In a nutshell, the easy mod decreases the OD, making much easier to get perfects and 300's, and the HP is lowered as well. Harder maps overall become much easier to spam through and recover from. I suggest limiting the range as well as moving the PP lower.
<----------------[-------------o-----------]------------------------------------------------------------------------>
<----------------[-------------o-----------]------------------------------------------------------------------------>
Halftime:
SPOILER
This mod slows down the map by 1.5 times. The map becomes more readable and the player doesn't need to play as fast. Personally, I only see a 7%-10% increase in accuracy when using this mod. I think limiting the higher range would justify this. On the higher range, The PP would never be as high as playing normally due to the ease of getting the notes. On the lower range, if a player gets 22pp out of 240pp top players get without mods, I don't think lowering the range on halftime such that the player would get something like 18pp instead would depict the result accurately (horrible explanation, don't know how else to explain)
<--------------------------------[-----------------o---------------]------------------------------------------------>
<--------------------------------[-----------------o---------------]------------------------------------------------>
Hardrock:
SPOILER
The hardrock mod is the direct opposite of the easy mod. So you then shift the range higher and expand it? Close. The only reason the easy mod got shifted lower is to justify spamming. That said, expanding the higher range AND lower range would justify this mod. I see it like this: If you get misses, then those would be penalized towards the lower range. If you get perfects, you would be awarded to the higher range. Since this would expand both ends, a player who gets 10 misses and 990 perfects would be penalized more using this mod than a person that would get same without mods. The reward, however, comes when not having any misses, 50's, 100's and 200's. Simply put, harsher penalty and better reward.
<----------------[-------------------------------------o-----------------------------------]------------------------>
<----------------[-------------------------------------o-----------------------------------]------------------------>
Doubletime:
SPOILER
This mod can get hard really easy by increasing the speed by 1.5 times. The speed it which you need to get the notes increases, making some patterns harder to get. The overall difficulty of the map gets harder. Therefore a suggest having the PP range shifted higher.
<------------------------------------------------[---------------------o-------------------]------------------------->
<------------------------------------------------[---------------------o-------------------]------------------------->
The rest of the mods do little to modify difficulty.
I wouldn't mind DT giving pp. Other than that, it's a no-no for me.
idk, I think DT would be reasonable at least. o!m's PP system is too acc/7k biased imoChoofers wrote:
lol'd
mods should disable pp, regardless of what mod is used
I guess you guys are all for mods that raise difficulty having PP. I understand that there is little to know point on lowering the easy mod's PP, for instance, because odds are the player will wind up with PP that gets weighted to nothing. In my view, however, those mods should be ranked and by doing so penalties/awards should be given accordingly. It just has been unfortunate that however the PP for the HT mod calculated because it's worth quite something under the right circumstances. From what I found, it is worth about 50% the original PP. I have included a comparison of similar accuracy achieved on AiAe:
HT pp is just calculated by the new star rating after HT is set. Which is why aiae ht gives a lot of pp since it's still around 5.5*.abraker wrote:
I guess you guys are all for mods that raise difficulty having PP. I understand that there is little to know point on lowering the easy mod's PP, for instance, because odds are the player will wind up with PP that gets weighted to nothing. In my view, however, those mods should be ranked and by doing so penalties/awards should be given accordingly. It just has been unfortunate that however the PP for the HT mod calculated because it's worth quite something under the right circumstances. From what I found, it is worth about 50% the original PP. I have included a comparison of similar accuracy achieved on AiAe:
Then I guess that's a weird coincidence. I can't find many HT records to compare to, so I could only assume it's around 50%
HT, NF, and EZ should disable pp
mania just needs to have a better star rating system, and the rest will fix itself automatically
I've just noticed loads of players are doing AiAe+HT, for almost 400pp. LOL
i wish LN maps can have a higher star rating..Redon wrote:
mania just needs to have a better star rating system, and the rest will fix itself automatically
maybe mappers can set their own star rating about this
maybe
That's because AiAe SHD's star rating is overrated, not because HT is inherently overrated.Cozzzy wrote:
I've just noticed loads of players are doing AiAe+HT, for almost 400pp. LOL
The SHD, among many other maps, is overrated because easy-to-play but high NPS patterns like this and this are overrated, as all the mania star rating algorithm really seems to take into account is peak note density. If you removed only half the notes on the few spots where these patterns pop up, and left the difficult quadstreams and all in place (which I did to save you the trouble), the diff's rating drops from 6.77 to 5.56 stars. According to Shoegazer, a lot more experienced 4K player than I am, it should realistically be rated around 6 stars. Needless to say, as a 6 star map, AiAe SHD on HT wouldn't be worth nearly as much pp as it is now.
All that is true for the no-mod version of it too, by the way. As I said, all we need is a proper star rating system, and the rest would mostly solve itself. If I was to map a 75% speed version of AiAe, made it the same as SHD on HT, and got it ranked, it would be just as much of a pp farm with the current SR algorithm.
nah, that would ruin it imoElementaires wrote:
maybe mappers can set their own star rating about this
maybe
tho supervising over sr and adjusting it manually is the only way to introduce SV rating in there. something like +0,5* added to algorithm value when SV is ultra-hard (smooooch example)
From what I see, what determines how much (many?) pp you gain is basically accuracy.
If you score lower than previous but have higher accuracy, no pp. Vice versa = lower pp.
I just wish they use persistent scoring, like ones of IIDX where 300g = 2 points, 300 = 1 point, just to make score-to-accuracy look "linear".
Well... it's hard to explain... but I think you get it.
If you score lower than previous but have higher accuracy, no pp. Vice versa = lower pp.
I just wish they use persistent scoring, like ones of IIDX where 300g = 2 points, 300 = 1 point, just to make score-to-accuracy look "linear".
Well... it's hard to explain... but I think you get it.
Eh, I didn't say anything about HT being overrated. AiAe's rating is definitely a bit off, but 400pp HT gives me the impression that some values might have just been scaled down with HT, instead of actually recalculated. That, or something has gone horribly wrong!Redon wrote:
That's because AiAe SHD's star rating is overrated, not because HT is inherently overrated.Cozzzy wrote:
I've just noticed loads of players are doing AiAe+HT, for almost 400pp. LOL
You don't even know how wrong you arestryver12 wrote:
From what I see, what determines how much (many?) pp you gain is basically accuracy.
If you score lower than previous but have higher accuracy, no pp. Vice versa = lower pp.
I just wish they use persistent scoring, like ones of IIDX where 300g = 2 points, 300 = 1 point, just to make score-to-accuracy look "linear".
Well... it's hard to explain... but I think you get it.
sooo can HT mod be unrankable now?
What's really cool is that if you passed it without mods, but got less than 400pp, you can't play HT and get more pp since the score will be lower.Cozzzy wrote:
I've just noticed loads of players are doing AiAe+HT, for almost 400pp. LOL
This is gonna change when per-mod score get implemented, isn't it?xwidghet wrote:
What's really cool is that if you passed it without mods, but got less than 400pp, you can't play HT and get more pp since the score will be lower.Cozzzy wrote:
I've just noticed loads of players are doing AiAe+HT, for almost 400pp. LOL
This also confirmed for EZ mod as wellxwidghet wrote:
What's really cool is that if you passed it without mods, but got less than 400pp, you can't play HT and get more pp since the score will be lower.Cozzzy wrote:
I've just noticed loads of players are doing AiAe+HT, for almost 400pp. LOL
When are the changes going to happen? I'm sick of looking at my 270 BPM beatmap loaded with hard streams that has 4,2 stars and I cant score an A on it (and I almost S'd verse IV)
Star rating is imcredibly broken
Converts give pp
Devs when is it going to change?
Star rating is imcredibly broken
Converts give pp
Devs when is it going to change?
Your map is actually not that hard, but it deserves a bit more stars, maybe 4.8?TheZiemniax wrote:
When are the changes going to happen? I'm sick of looking at my 270 BPM beatmap loaded with hard streams that has 4,2 stars and I cant score an A on it (and I almost S'd verse IV)
Star rating is imcredibly broken
Converts give pp
Devs when is it going to change?
TheZiemniax wrote:
When are the changes going to happen? I'm sick of looking at my 270 BPM beatmap loaded with hard streams that has 4,2 stars and I cant score an A on it (and I almost S'd verse IV)
Star rating is imcredibly broken
Converts give pp
Devs when is it going to change?
sometimes i wonder if devs checked this thread
I don't understand how you can compare absurdly long 270 BPM streams and say that it's just a touch harder than Elemental Creation (rated at 4.72). Verse IV and HAELEQUIN generally have the correct rating (though I'd argue Verse IV is a little higher - 5.5), and I'm pretty certain no one will be able to come close to S'ing The Empress 2D if they're barely S'ing those two maps. I seriously don't see how you can even compare something like 270 BPM stream (and they aren't the easiest patterns, either) for long periods and say that it's comparable to something like Elemental Creation, when it is pretty clear that more people will do substantially worse on TE than on HAELEQUIN or Verse IV.akuma123 wrote:
Your map is actually not that hard, but it deserves a bit more stars, maybe 4.8?TheZiemniax wrote:
When are the changes going to happen? I'm sick of looking at my 270 BPM beatmap loaded with hard streams that has 4,2 stars and I cant score an A on it (and I almost S'd verse IV)
Star rating is imcredibly broken
Converts give pp
Devs when is it going to change?
I am ready to pitch my idea in for the Mania star rating system.
1. SR calculated by adding up points per measure and adjust bonuses/penalties
calculate break time and decrease SR based on length (biggest decrease)
calculate length of low difficulty and decrease SR (lower difficulty = bigger decrease)
if difficulty is >= previous measure, bonus difficulty + .2
2. for every additional note on same time receives .5
ex. 3 note chord highest difficulty = 1 + .5 + .5 = 2, as opposed to 3
this gives chord values less of a difficulty than broken chords, rolls and such
for every chord that is the same as the previous will receive a penalty of difficulty*(.9)
3. for every LN = 1.5x value of a normal note, each additional LN during the duration
will add the difficulty by (1 if only one start/ending point is the same)
or (1.25 if both starting and ending points are different) or (.75 if both start
and end points are the same)
(highest difficulty calculated during the time LN are overlapped)
ex. 3 LN same time = 1.5 + .75 + .75 = 3
ex. 3 LN: 1 pair same start different end, 1 different start and end = 1.5 + 1 + 1.25 = 3.75
ex. 3 LN: 1 same start/end, 1 different start/end = 1.5 + .75 + 1.25 = 3.5
4. tighter jacks deserve exponential difficulty depending on tightness. because repetative notes/chords will decrease difficulty
and jacks that carry over multiple measures receive bonus difficulty due to same level of difficulty, the curve will be more balanced.
difficulty = (1 second/(note distance)*c)^2
c=constant (set to whatever feels right)
lets give c=4
ex. distance between notes = 1 sec: (1/4)^2 = .125 points
ex. distance = .2 sec (5x per sec): 1.5625 points
ex. distance = .1 sec (10x per sec): 6.25 points
5. balancing
part 1:
4k start same as 7k, scales higher
7k start same as 4k, scales lower
reason: as songs become more difficult, stamina will be the key factor in judging this section of difficulty, 4k is easier to maintain stamina at same difficulty
part 2:
4k start higher in this category but will scale lower
7k will start lower but will scale higher
reason: easier to learn low key amounts quickly and recognize positions compared to higher key amounts
part 3:
4k start same as 7k, scale lower
7k start same as 4k, scale higher
reason: beginners will usually be face with 1 or 2 ln's at a time, but due to having more keys = more ln's at a time
part 4:
4k start higher, scales higher
7k start lower, scales lower
reason: less columns = more notes hitting on same lane. that being said, 4k starts to focus on speed earlier and is mostly about speed end game
by combining all calculations into a scaled star rating, I think will represent a much more precise
measurement in every mania beatmap
1. SR calculated by adding up points per measure and adjust bonuses/penalties
calculate break time and decrease SR based on length (biggest decrease)
calculate length of low difficulty and decrease SR (lower difficulty = bigger decrease)
if difficulty is >= previous measure, bonus difficulty + .2
2. for every additional note on same time receives .5
ex. 3 note chord highest difficulty = 1 + .5 + .5 = 2, as opposed to 3
this gives chord values less of a difficulty than broken chords, rolls and such
for every chord that is the same as the previous will receive a penalty of difficulty*(.9)
3. for every LN = 1.5x value of a normal note, each additional LN during the duration
will add the difficulty by (1 if only one start/ending point is the same)
or (1.25 if both starting and ending points are different) or (.75 if both start
and end points are the same)
(highest difficulty calculated during the time LN are overlapped)
ex. 3 LN same time = 1.5 + .75 + .75 = 3
ex. 3 LN: 1 pair same start different end, 1 different start and end = 1.5 + 1 + 1.25 = 3.75
ex. 3 LN: 1 same start/end, 1 different start/end = 1.5 + .75 + 1.25 = 3.5
4. tighter jacks deserve exponential difficulty depending on tightness. because repetative notes/chords will decrease difficulty
and jacks that carry over multiple measures receive bonus difficulty due to same level of difficulty, the curve will be more balanced.
difficulty = (1 second/(note distance)*c)^2
c=constant (set to whatever feels right)
lets give c=4
ex. distance between notes = 1 sec: (1/4)^2 = .125 points
ex. distance = .2 sec (5x per sec): 1.5625 points
ex. distance = .1 sec (10x per sec): 6.25 points
5. balancing
part 1:
4k start same as 7k, scales higher
7k start same as 4k, scales lower
reason: as songs become more difficult, stamina will be the key factor in judging this section of difficulty, 4k is easier to maintain stamina at same difficulty
part 2:
4k start higher in this category but will scale lower
7k will start lower but will scale higher
reason: easier to learn low key amounts quickly and recognize positions compared to higher key amounts
part 3:
4k start same as 7k, scale lower
7k start same as 4k, scale higher
reason: beginners will usually be face with 1 or 2 ln's at a time, but due to having more keys = more ln's at a time
part 4:
4k start higher, scales higher
7k start lower, scales lower
reason: less columns = more notes hitting on same lane. that being said, 4k starts to focus on speed earlier and is mostly about speed end game
by combining all calculations into a scaled star rating, I think will represent a much more precise
measurement in every mania beatmap
Before I start, that was a bit hard to read. Consider some formatting.
The rest I think I can agree. Again, that was a pain to read, so I might have misread something.
Suppose a different offset for a given pattern. Sampling it by measure will result in varied star rating for each offset.Squishykorean wrote:
1. SR calculated by adding up points per measure and adjust bonuses/penalties
Not sure what the learning curve of inverted maps is and how they will be affected by your version of SR.Squishykorean wrote:
3. for every LN = 1.5x value of a normal note, each additional LN during the duration
will add the difficulty by (1 if only one start/ending point is the same)
or (1.25 if both starting and ending points are different) or (.75 if both start
and end points are the same)
The rest I think I can agree. Again, that was a pain to read, so I might have misread something.
abraker wrote:
Before I start, that was a bit hard to read. Consider some formatting.Suppose a different offset for a given pattern. Sampling it by measure will result in varied star rating for each offset.Squishykorean wrote:
1. SR calculated by adding up points per measure and adjust bonuses/penaltiesNot sure what the learning curve of inverted maps is and how they will be affected by your version of SR.Squishykorean wrote:
3. for every LN = 1.5x value of a normal note, each additional LN during the duration
will add the difficulty by (1 if only one start/ending point is the same)
or (1.25 if both starting and ending points are different) or (.75 if both start
and end points are the same)
The rest I think I can agree. Again, that was a pain to read, so I might have misread something.
by measuring the smallest unit, it would yield the most accurate measurement of difficulty, but calculating each beat would be too much. I'm not totally understand what you mean by offset will result in varied star rating, if its starts off late by 1/2 a measure, then it will end 1/2 a measure making no difference to the SR as a whole after it averages out. but then again, with using the bonus/penalty from comparing difficulty of the next measure it could impact the overall SR maybe by an insignificantly small margin.
the LN learning curve will be much more appropriate, usually LNs will start out on same lengths if multiple are present yielding smaller value. as songs become more difficult, there will be various lengths of LN making a higher value of difficulty.
all contain 6 LN in one measure, yet all have a different difficulty which using that formula takes care of that issue
as for the value of a LN to be 1.5 instead of it currently being worth 1 note (the worse of 2 scores: start and end release), it makes sense to increase their worth somehow since the scoring isn't completely fair on this. the scoring should be at least the average of accuracy of hitting and releasing
ex. 300 hold, 100 release would give 200 as opposed to 100
ex. 0 hold, 300 release would give 150 as opposed to 0
How does a 6.00 star map differ from a 6.10 star or a 1.00 star from a 1.10 star using your system? If you are not worried about such accuracy, then go ahead dismiss what I said.Squishykorean wrote:
by an insignificantly small margin.
Fair enough.Squishykorean wrote:
LN
EDIT: I feel like irregular notes deserve a bit bonus as well. For example, a two 1/4th, but between them is a 1/6th. I'm pretty sure adjust to hit something between half as fast or twice as fast depending on what note it is would have some difficulty aspect to it.
I want to hear someone else's opinion, especially Tom94's.
You know what would be really nice? If someone put together a way to actually test ideas like these out. I don't mean a tool that simply applies on specific calculation but one that can be tweaked easily so variations could easily be tested. It's one thing to just think about it and come up with an algorithm, it's a whole other thing to take a working implementation and test it against various maps and variations on the algorithm.
The single largest flaw in the current SR system isn't even the failure of the implementation to account for certain issues. The real problem is that while this feedback thread exists, there's been no way for the community to actively participate beyond making suggestions here. The SR algorithm hasn't had any changes in months. If it's stable enough to last this long, the algorithm should be public so we can actually examine it rather than make assumptions on how it works (and subsequently how to improve it). Certainly a community (or even small group of community members) looking over the algorithm would be better at spotting flaws and coming up with alternatives than a single person.
The single largest flaw in the current SR system isn't even the failure of the implementation to account for certain issues. The real problem is that while this feedback thread exists, there's been no way for the community to actively participate beyond making suggestions here. The SR algorithm hasn't had any changes in months. If it's stable enough to last this long, the algorithm should be public so we can actually examine it rather than make assumptions on how it works (and subsequently how to improve it). Certainly a community (or even small group of community members) looking over the algorithm would be better at spotting flaws and coming up with alternatives than a single person.
I would do that if I wasn't still making the analysis tool I said I was some month ago. Maybe I'll give this some priority a bit later. The best we can do is setup short sample patterns and calculate it ourselves until someone make such a thing.Bobbias wrote:
You know what would be really nice? If someone put together a way to actually test ideas like these out.
THIS ^Bobbias wrote:
The real problem is that while this feedback thread exists, there's been no way for the community to actively participate beyond making suggestions here.
just wanted to ask...
Is the pp still at work or is it finished?
This thread hasn't been updated for 4 months already so just thought to bump it a bit.
Is the pp still at work or is it finished?
This thread hasn't been updated for 4 months already so just thought to bump it a bit.
We dont have any clue where Tom94 is with this. My understanding is that he is busy with other stuff. Unless peppy pushes Tom to get something done, I doubt we are going to see something new for a whiledennischan wrote:
just wanted to ask...
Is the pp still at work or is it finished?
This thread hasn't been updated for 4 months already so just thought to bump it a bit.
No idea... This thread seems to be dead
yol oque opino esque nos de mas pp cuando sacomos una s o una a en cualquier dificultad
I'd love to see smthing like a multi mania mode with the 1.000.000 points cap unlocked so we can play player unbalanced matches like 2v5 or smthing. A little addon would change so much 
Pretty please :3
Pretty please :3C18H27NO3Elementaires wrote:
i wish LN maps can have a higher star rating..Redon wrote:
mania just needs to have a better star rating system, and the rest will fix itself automatically
maybe mappers can set their own star rating about this
maybe
)Thanks for info!
Would love mania 4K pp to be balanced with 7K and others. I think mania is the best mode in the game and I prefer it over the other similar rhythm games, so it would be great if you didn't drop the ball.
Regarding the update:
Do not award pp for scores below 50% of the maximum attainable score.Thanks.
There's a problem with this pp system, somehow I got 200 PP on a map where my best for all maps is 100 ish....
let me guess: triumph and regret
> checks
> triumph and regret
Either you randomly got unlucky in multiplayer or you know what you were going for. Either way, stay away from maps like these. They are bad for your mania skill.
> checks
> triumph and regret
Either you randomly got unlucky in multiplayer or you know what you were going for. Either way, stay away from maps like these. They are bad for your mania skill.
I completely agree man, because the max score you can get with 4k mod on is like 770k or something. Its insane!!!!!Riddle96 wrote:
Well, 4k and 7k are like 2 different games in the same rank, i think we need a different ranking, or a way to balance it, imho.
maybe should give a LITTLE bit more pp for 4k, im checking every osu!mania player and their only tops are 7k. that makes me sad because i cant learn 7k. it so damn hard.
Honestly, I fucking hate this. I literally click the keys right one TIME then it gives me 'miss', every fucking time. I want to quit this stupid game, at some point.
locked and unpinned. this is too old, outdated, and Tom94 is no longer lead this anymore.
if you still want to give your feedback, you can join the pp dev discord server here:
https://discord.gg/GFCNNg8bwk
if you still want to give your feedback, you can join the pp dev discord server here:
https://discord.gg/GFCNNg8bwk